m66
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Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Fri May 10, 2019 10:35 am

Sorry, only in German:

https://www.spiegel.de/wirtschaft/unter ... 66734.html

And actually nothing new besides that the Oct 2020 date is in danger of slipping yet again.
 
ThomasMTroxell
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Fri May 10, 2019 10:55 am

"A report by TÜV Rheinland had listed a total of 11,581 defects at the beginning of March, 9407 of which described the auditors as "significant deficiencies". The TÜV came to the conclusion that the planned schedule was particularly at risk in the sensitive areas of safety technology and fire protection. The risk of prolonged testing was "still considered high"."

This is truly insane. It's been under audit and reconstruction for several years and it still has nearly 10,000 issues.
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Antarius
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Fri May 10, 2019 11:01 am

The building will be such a cluster if it ever opens due to these repeated one-off fixes needed. It will just fall apart and no one will be able to maintain it.
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OGLOBAL
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Fri May 10, 2019 11:33 am

for gods sake just demolish the whole terminal and build a new one it will take less time and cost less ...
 
Breathe
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Fri May 10, 2019 11:39 am

OGLOBAL wrote:
for gods sake just demolish the whole terminal and build a new one it will take less time and cost less ...

In the time its taken so far, they probably could have demolished the terminal, rebuilt it, demolish it again and rebuilt it a third time and it probably would have taken less time and cost less!!!
 
wexfordflyer
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Fri May 10, 2019 12:08 pm

HOly crap. What happened to German efficiency?

When did construction start?
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kalvado
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Fri May 10, 2019 12:12 pm

wexfordflyer wrote:
HOly crap. What happened to German efficiency?

When did construction start?

This millennium, so not that long ago.
 
emuwarveteran
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Fri May 10, 2019 12:58 pm

G E R M A N E N G I N E E R I N G ... planes will be replaced by hyperloops and flying cars by the time they open the damn airport
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zakuivcustom
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Fri May 10, 2019 1:05 pm

Surprise...surprise...what about no.

Seriously, they could have just build a new airport from scratch by now (Including EIS, land acquisition, new runways, new terminals, etc.)
 
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Revelation
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Fri May 10, 2019 1:12 pm

OGLOBAL wrote:
for gods sake just demolish the whole terminal and build a new one it will take less time and cost less ...

That would defeat the purpose of keeping local officials and their cronies in a position to hand out large chunks of money to others.

The only way to finish the airport is to give them some other cash cow to milk.
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Sand0rf
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Fri May 10, 2019 1:21 pm

This things is starting to become more and more insane. I can remember back in 2012 when BER was originally scheduled to open they came up with a plan for 'Fire spotters' that would look for fire throughout the terminal:

Confronted with the fire system fiasco, Rainer Schwarz, chief executive officer of Flughafen Berlin Brandenburg (FBB), the airport company owned by the city of Berlin, the state of Brandenburg, and the federal government, downplayed it. Schwarz and his staff told the airport’s board of oversight, as well as Stephan Loge, the commissioner of Dahme-Spreewald County, who had the final authority to issue the airport an operating license, that they were working through some issues, but that the situation was under control. Schwarz also appointed an emergency task force to propose solutions that would allow the airport to open on time. In March 2012 the group submitted its stopgap: Eight hundred low-paid workers armed with cell phones would take up positions throughout the terminal. If anyone smelled smoke or saw a fire, he would alert the airport fire station and direct passengers toward the exits. Never mind that the region’s cell phone networks were notoriously unreliable, or that some students would be stationed near the smoke evacuation channels, where in a fire temperatures could reach 1,000F.

Source
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Fri May 10, 2019 1:32 pm

kalvado wrote:
wexfordflyer wrote:
HOly crap. What happened to German efficiency?

When did construction start?

This millennium, so not that long ago.

Per Wikipedia:
After almost 15 years of planning, construction began in 2006. Originally planned to open in October 2011, the airport has encountered a series of delays and cost overruns. These were due to poor construction planning, execution, management, as well as corruption. Autumn 2020 became the new target for the official opening date as 2019 became too improbable. A new TÜV report published in November 2017 suggested that the opening could even be delayed until 2021.

So, planning started in 1991, 28 years ago!!!
And construction started in 2006, 13 years ago!!!

How long does it take to build an airport? 40-50 years???
Be realistic, it's beyond screwed-up.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Fri May 10, 2019 1:38 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
kalvado wrote:
wexfordflyer wrote:
HOly crap. What happened to German efficiency?

When did construction start?

This millennium, so not that long ago.

Per Wikipedia:
After almost 15 years of planning, construction began in 2006. Originally planned to open in October 2011, the airport has encountered a series of delays and cost overruns. These were due to poor construction planning, execution, management, as well as corruption. Autumn 2020 became the new target for the official opening date as 2019 became too improbable. A new TÜV report published in November 2017 suggested that the opening could even be delayed until 2021.

So, planning started in 1991, 28 years ago!!!
And construction started in 2006, 13 years ago!!!

How long does it take to build an airport? 40-50 years???
Be realistic, it's beyond screwed-up.

It is time to shut down the program, demolish it, and assign to a new bidder under a completely new oversight structure. Simple rule, any government employee,/politician involved in the prior effort is blacklisted from the new project. No input from the prior agencies. Oh, while at it, 3 runways, 24/7 too.

What a disgrace.
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LTU1011
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Fri May 10, 2019 1:45 pm

Next level embarrassing tbth. The runway seems just about fine - although was some years ago at ILA since I last saw it in the flesh...
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OA940
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Fri May 10, 2019 1:45 pm

How they haven't managed to fix the fire detector problems after 7 years is beyond my comprehension.
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yuomi
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Fri May 10, 2019 1:55 pm

Ironically BER had only just invited airlines to participate in talks around operations with a view to the October 2020 opening date going ahead.

https://www.passengerterminaltoday.com/ ... tions.html
 
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Aesma
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Fri May 10, 2019 1:56 pm

Sand0rf wrote:
This things is starting to become more and more insane. I can remember back in 2012 when BER was originally scheduled to open they came up with a plan for 'Fire spotters' that would look for fire throughout the terminal:

Confronted with the fire system fiasco, Rainer Schwarz, chief executive officer of Flughafen Berlin Brandenburg (FBB), the airport company owned by the city of Berlin, the state of Brandenburg, and the federal government, downplayed it. Schwarz and his staff told the airport’s board of oversight, as well as Stephan Loge, the commissioner of Dahme-Spreewald County, who had the final authority to issue the airport an operating license, that they were working through some issues, but that the situation was under control. Schwarz also appointed an emergency task force to propose solutions that would allow the airport to open on time. In March 2012 the group submitted its stopgap: Eight hundred low-paid workers armed with cell phones would take up positions throughout the terminal. If anyone smelled smoke or saw a fire, he would alert the airport fire station and direct passengers toward the exits. Never mind that the region’s cell phone networks were notoriously unreliable, or that some students would be stationed near the smoke evacuation channels, where in a fire temperatures could reach 1,000F.

Source


Tell me that plan was a April fools' day joke ?
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LH748
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Fri May 10, 2019 2:06 pm

It's no surprise really. Did anyone seriously believe that this airport would still get finished. It's a complete disaster and people just don't dare to admit it and stop the it. They rather burn millions and millions of euros which is even more outrageous.
Give the contract to a Chinese airport construction company and build something completely new. That's the only solution I see if Berlin ever wants to have a new airport
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Mat1776
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Fri May 10, 2019 2:37 pm

To me with a limited brain capacity, BER looks to be nothing more than an expansion of and existing Berlin Schönefeld Airport with a new runway, taxiways, and a terminal building and a new name.

It's not a brand new airport.
And, only the new terminal building has issues that prevent the expansion to be completed.

So, why not just rebuild the terminal with a new design, contractors, and construction oversight?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Fri May 10, 2019 3:40 pm

Mat1776 wrote:
To me with a limited brain capacity, BER looks to be nothing more than an expansion of and existing Berlin Schönefeld Airport with a new runway, taxiways, and a terminal building and a new name.

It's not a brand new airport.
And, only the new terminal building has issues that prevent the expansion to be completed.

So, why not just rebuild the terminal with a new design, contractors, and construction oversight?

It's not you. The BER project has so many political issues, limited brain capacity was applied.

Lightsaber
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StrandedAtMKG
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Fri May 10, 2019 3:57 pm

If planning for this boondoggle started in 1991 and it's not going to be open until the mid-2020s, I can't help but think the transportation needs of the Berlin region must have changed/grown dramatically since then and BER might not be adequate anymore. In the meantime, Berlin is stuck with a patchwork of three airports that just aren't cutting it. I'm starting to think there's some merit to the idea of just bulldozing the terminal at BER and starting over.
 
m66
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Fri May 10, 2019 4:06 pm

lightsaber wrote:
It is time to shut down the program, demolish it, and assign to a new bidder under a completely new oversight structure. Simple rule, any government employee,/politician involved in the prior effort is blacklisted from the new project. No input from the prior agencies. Oh, while at it, 3 runways, 24/7 too.

What a disgrace.


It is worse than that: they are already working on a first extension of the terminals supposed to be finished in 2021 ... and guess what, they already are mentioning probable delays.
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Fri May 10, 2019 4:32 pm

In the mean time, New Istanbul Airport is open and running. :D
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Fri May 10, 2019 4:53 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
In the mean time, New Istanbul Airport is open and running. :D

And Heathrow will get a 3rd runway and Detroit will have EK A380 service.
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SkyVoice
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Sun May 12, 2019 5:13 am

The Germans are just as disgusted--even more so--than the rest of the world about BER. Check this website out . . .

http://www.istderberschonfertig.de/

It is in German only, but Google Translate does a good job for me.
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MHG
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Sun May 12, 2019 6:28 am

StrandedAtMKG wrote:
In the meantime, Berlin is stuck with a patchwork of three airports that just aren't cutting it.

Even worse they already intentionally reduced the portfolio to only two airports (SXF/BER and TXL) by closing THF in 2008 in anticipation of the on-time opening of BER ...
Btw. that´s why TXL already operates waaaay over its projected capacity for years.
... and the mantra is that TXL must be closed when BER opens.
It is repeatedly stated that due to the legal framework closure of TXL 6 months after BER´s opening is unavoidable.
Personally I don´t believe there´s really no way around that if there´s a will - but we´re facing here a political unwillingness based on ideology not reality.
So, BER on its opening day will already run at more than 100% of its projected capacity ...
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davidjohnson6
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Sun May 12, 2019 8:27 am

The new BER airport has a design capacity of 27 million pax per year
Tegel + Schoenefeld airports saw 35.8 million pax from Apr 2018 - Mar 2019 (source = http://www.adv.aero)

It is expected that Schoenefeld's existing terminal will remain open once the new BER terminal opens - they are after all 2 terminal on the same airport site
SXF as the old East German airport is currently handling about 12m pax per year (it *really* struggles to achieve this - as a passenger it is significantly less pleasant than Tegel)
If the remaining 23.8m pax migrate to BER we would find the new BER terminal operating at 88% of design capacity on day 1. It is pretty clear that BER is simply not big enough
 
andrej
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Sun May 12, 2019 8:55 am

I hope that this is not true. The entire BER saga is like a comedy. It is very unGerman like to have such a poor planning, construction, and fitting issues.

BER is not big enough and they should already plan construction of another terminal. Till this day I question reasons to close THF and urgency to focus all operations only on BER.

The Focus magazine reports that Spiegel's article is misunderstanding. Now I am not sure who is more realiable (Focus vs. Spiegel), but the damage control is in a full swing.

https://m.focus.de/finanzen/news/naechs ... 94512.html
 
cedarjet
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Sun May 12, 2019 9:14 am

Pyongyang’s new airport (same site as the old one but new terminal and new runway) is fantastic and only took c. 4 years. Cheers comrades!
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
mxaxai
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Sun May 12, 2019 11:06 am

MHG wrote:
Even worse they already intentionally reduced the portfolio to only two airports (SXF/BER and TXL) by closing THF in 2008 in anticipation of the on-time opening of BER ...
Btw. that´s why TXL already operates waaaay over its projected capacity for years.

THF was tiny and had no room for expansion. TXL is way over capacity because any improvements were considered unnecessary with BER opening "soon".
MHG wrote:
... and the mantra is that TXL must be closed when BER opens.
It is repeatedly stated that due to the legal framework closure of TXL 6 months after BER´s opening is unavoidable.
Personally I don´t believe there´s really no way around that if there´s a will - but we´re facing here a political unwillingness based on ideology not reality.
So, BER on its opening day will already run at more than 100% of its projected capacity ...

Actually, BER operating over 100% of its capacity is the only way for TXL to remain open. There is an agreement between Berlin and Brandenburg (the surrounding state) to concentrate Berlin's traffic on one airport, if possible. Brandenburg is absolutely unwilling to change that agreement - they have nothing to gain from TXL - so Berlin has to prove that BER cannot cope with the traffic.
Then there is not just ideology, but the expected public pressure against TXL and the accompanying lawsuits. Few politicians are willing to face that pressure, regardless of their personal opinion regarding the airport. Especially if they want to keep their well paid government positions.
 
cedarjet
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Sun May 12, 2019 12:12 pm

I love Tegel so much. I hope Brandenburg never opens
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aemoreira1981
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Sun May 12, 2019 12:17 pm

Breathe wrote:
OGLOBAL wrote:
for gods sake just demolish the whole terminal and build a new one it will take less time and cost less ...

In the time its taken so far, they probably could have demolished the terminal, rebuilt it, demolish it again and rebuilt it a third time and it probably would have taken less time and cost less!!!


I came here precisely to say that! It would have been better, but also politically disastrous, to just demolish the building and build the terminal anew. Alternatively, just build the second runway for BER and a new terminal next to the existing one for SXF.
 
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LTU932
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Sun May 12, 2019 12:33 pm

lightsaber wrote:
It's not you. The BER project has so many political issues, limited brain capacity was applied.
:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

That is so sad, it's automatically funny again.
mxaxai wrote:
Actually, BER operating over 100% of its capacity is the only way for TXL to remain open. There is an agreement between Berlin and Brandenburg (the surrounding state) to concentrate Berlin's traffic on one airport, if possible. Brandenburg is absolutely unwilling to change that agreement - they have nothing to gain from TXL - so Berlin has to prove that BER cannot cope with the traffic.
Then there is not just ideology, but the expected public pressure against TXL and the accompanying lawsuits. Few politicians are willing to face that pressure, regardless of their personal opinion regarding the airport. Especially if they want to keep their well paid government positions.
Let's not forget: After the EU and some regional elections, we will have three state elections, two of those in September and that includes Brandenburg. The SPD government under Dietmar Woidke is under heavy pressure from the so-called AfD if you look at recent surveys. It will be near impossible to form a government but I still fear that, for campaign reasons, any decisions on BER will be delayed until after the elections, which means it will be delayed indefinitely if no government coalition can be formed and thus we could face that the current conditions will kick in by default.

Berlin won't hold elections until probably around September 2021, just before the federal elections. But AFAIK, Berlin already ruled out to step back on the closure of TXL, unless something happened. They want to turn TXL into a new neighbourhood that has apartments that nobody can afford except for the rich (similar to what they want to do with the old Altona Station over in Hamburg, which is supposed to be moved to where the current S-Bahn station Diebsteich is located).
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steman
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Sun May 12, 2019 12:33 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:

I came here precisely to say that! It would have been better, but also politically disastrous, to just demolish the building and build the terminal anew. Alternatively, just build the second runway for BER and a new terminal next to the existing one for SXF.


It already has a second runway. BER has two runways. The north one used to be SXF Southern Runway and the South one is completely new. The masterplan calls for expansion of the existing structures with additional Terminals:
T2 is being built right behind the north pier, on the land side. It will be dedicated to low cost operations and will be connected directly to the north pier (which does not have fingers and it´s specifically been designed for low cost ops). A T3/4 will be built east of the current main terminal T1. On google maps one can see that right now there´s just an empty rectangular space. It will connect to the extension of both the North Pier and South pier, which are also part of the masterplan. Finally, T1 will receive up to two satellites on the west side of it, the first of which will be directly connected to the main body.
Of course this is just the masterplan. If this will actually happens remains to be seen.

In the meantime, even without knowing when the new airport will finally open, they have announced the division of the Terminals among the airlines: T1 will be used by LH and Easyjet. Eurowings will use T2. Ryanair will stay in SXF, provisionally called T5. The others have yet to be announced
First things first, they need to fix T1 and finally open it before all this can happen.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Sun May 12, 2019 12:46 pm

I'm a little curious on one thing - how come the Federal Govt has not become more involved ? I understand about the individual Lander / states having autonomy but at some point national Govt (subject to legislative agreement by the Bundestag) presumably can choose to overrule local politicians on issues of national importance. There seems to be broad acceptance in public opinion both locally and nationally that BER has been chaos. I can't imagine that Spain (with a similiar history in the 1930s onwards and a highly regionally devolved Govt) would have allowed such a farce in Madrid's airport. We're not talking about a minor regional airport here...
 
WIederling
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Sun May 12, 2019 1:09 pm

wexfordflyer wrote:
HOly crap. What happened to German efficiency?


THAT is German efficiency. Who else could draw out a construction abortion to 20 years without going broke.:-)
The political decission against the suitable locations Sperenberg and Jüterbog-Ost and towards a restructuring of Schönefeld
was effected in 1996.
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LTU932
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Sun May 12, 2019 1:17 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
I'm a little curious on one thing - how come the Federal Govt has not become more involved ? I understand about the individual Lander / states having autonomy but at some point national Govt (subject to legislative agreement by the Bundestag) presumably can choose to overrule local politicians on issues of national importance.
The federal government does indeed co-finance BER with federal tax money (as they do with many other projects), but the bulk of the money comes from tax payers in Berlin and Brandenburg. The federal government overruling the two states could cause a constitutional crisis of sorts, because I believe these kinds of rights are denied to the federal government unless it's something completely unconstitutional on a federal level (each state has its own state constitutions). So all the federal government can do is threaten to cut funding and talk, that's it.
Last edited by LTU932 on Sun May 12, 2019 1:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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WIederling
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Sun May 12, 2019 1:17 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
I'm a little curious on one thing - how come the Federal Govt has not become more involved ? I understand about the individual Lander / states having autonomy but at some point national Govt (subject to legislative agreement by the Bundestag) presumably can choose to overrule local politicians on issues of national importance. There seems to be broad acceptance in public opinion both locally and nationally that BER has been chaos. I can't imagine that Spain (with a similiar history in the 1930s onwards and a highly regionally devolved Govt) would have allowed such a farce in Madrid's airport. We're not talking about a minor regional airport here...


(Federal) Ministry of Transport has been led by some CSU polytick from Bavaria for quite a number of years now.
Entangling BER is beneficial to MUC. ( Just like increasing beyond reason safety requirements for "Traditionsschiffe"
moves youth from the coasts for sailing to the mountains for climbing.)
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chunhimlai
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Sun May 12, 2019 5:05 pm

Soon we will see BER airport as wonder in “age of the empire”
 
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LTU932
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Sun May 12, 2019 9:29 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
Soon we will see BER airport as wonder in “age of the empire”
No need to be that optimistic. In my opinion BER won't open until Captain Picard takes over the USS Enterprise in 2364. :stirthepot:
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
Breathe
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Mon May 13, 2019 12:22 pm

wexfordflyer wrote:
HOly crap. What happened to German efficiency?

When did construction start?

Berlin isn't really representative of the rest of Germany to be fair.
 
Lpbri
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Mon May 13, 2019 1:22 pm

I must be late for this, but what, in a nutshell is wrong with this facility again?
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Mon May 13, 2019 1:38 pm

Lpbri wrote:
I must be late for this, but what, in a nutshell is wrong with this facility again?

In a nutshell? Everything
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Mon May 13, 2019 3:08 pm

emuwarveteran wrote:
G E R M A N E N G I N E E R I N G ... planes will be replaced by hyperloops and flying cars by the time they open the damn airport


Engineering at BER is fine.

Project planning/management is a disaster.
Reading accident reports is what calms me down
 
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AirlineCritic
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sat Mar 14, 2009 1:07 pm

Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Mon May 13, 2019 5:14 pm

First all those problems with the building, and now also shaky grounds :D
 
mchei
Posts: 104
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2018 1:20 pm

Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Mon May 13, 2019 5:36 pm

What happened to German efficiency?
I don’t know.
Google Elbphilharmonie. Look at BER. And it even gets worse. Google the Gorch Fock and you will get to know that today we aren’t even able to renovate a vessel. It’s a shame.
We should send a group of German engineers to the Sagrada Familia in Barcelona. Seems to be the kind of project we like...
F70-F100-E145-E170-E190-319-320-321-735–736-737-738-752-763–742-744-333-343-ATR72-Metroliner-Saab2000-Lockheed Electra-C172-C182-C182RG-MD11
 
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LAX772LR
Posts: 12200
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Report: BER Oct 2020 opening on shaky grounds

Mon May 13, 2019 7:38 pm

Lpbri wrote:
I must be late for this, but what, in a nutshell is wrong with this facility again?

Piss-poor planning + design shortfalls, most notably in its fire suppression system, which still isn't functional after 7 years of targeted effort and multiple re-designs.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil

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