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mercure1
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Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Sun May 12, 2019 5:17 pm

ICAO plans a follow up audit of Thailand on a number of previously identified safety concerns.

The latest audit comes as Thailand seeks to accelerate efforts to address a variety of oversight and other shortcomings in a bid to restore its Category 1 safety rating with the U.S. Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). Regaining Category 1 status would allow Thai-registered airlines to launch new routes to the U.S. and participate in codeshare agreements with U.S.-based carriers.

Thailand plans to request a second technical review from the FAA once ICAO submits its findings and Thailand addresses outstanding issues.
In June 2015, ICAO flagged the country with a Significant Safety Concern (SSC) label for failing to maintain international standards. Two months later, the FAA downgraded Thailand to Category 2 over similar concerns identified 26 safety issues. Since then, the CAAT has accelerated efforts to address regulatory shortcomings.


ICAO Ready To Launch Follow-up Audit of Thailand
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... t-thailand


Lets see if they have truly improved their aviation oversight. :scratchchin:
mercure f-wtcc
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Sun May 12, 2019 6:00 pm

Yes lets see how they do, though they better manage to clear up identified ICAO findings first before calling the FAA for an audit again.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
YYZORD
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Sun May 12, 2019 9:03 pm

Why don't TG just fly to YVR to serve some of the US market that's possible along w Canada than just re-trying to get the safety rating that they are failing in all the time.
 
LAXdude1023
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Sun May 12, 2019 10:30 pm

YYZORD wrote:
Why don't TG just fly to YVR to serve some of the US market that's possible along w Canada than just re-trying to get the safety rating that they are failing in all the time.


Flying anywhere in the North America would be a colossal waste of money for TG.
Religion is the root of evil...
 
United1
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Sun May 12, 2019 11:24 pm

LAXdude1023 wrote:
YYZORD wrote:
Why don't TG just fly to YVR to serve some of the US market that's possible along w Canada than just re-trying to get the safety rating that they are failing in all the time.


Flying anywhere in the North America would be a colossal waste of money for TG.


It would be a colossal waste to fly their own metal but if they can get a Cat 1 rating they can initiate or expand codesharing with US carriers. Cat 2 countries can’t expand US service and that includes code sharing.
I know the voices in my head aren't real but sometimes their ideas are just awesome!!!
 
filipinoavgeek
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Sun May 12, 2019 11:40 pm

I still find it strange that a smaller airline like PR flies to the US and Canada and make its Transpacific routes work (even if at a loss, although historically this wasn't the case, only in more recent years), while apart from SQ, even large Southeast Asian airlines like MH, TG, GI, or VN can't make North America work. I mean, considering the larger economy and the larger tourist market, shouldn't US-Thailand be a larger market than US-Philippines?
 
TheEuphorian
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Mon May 13, 2019 12:05 am

filipinoavgeek wrote:
I still find it strange that a smaller airline like PR flies to the US and Canada and make its Transpacific routes work (even if at a loss, although historically this wasn't the case, only in more recent years), while apart from SQ, even large Southeast Asian airlines like MH, TG, GI, or VN can't make North America work. I mean, considering the larger economy and the larger tourist market, shouldn't US-Thailand be a larger market than US-Philippines?

Yeah, but NH,JL,OZ,KE,CA,MU,CZ,HU,CX,HX,MF,3U,BR and CI exists, and they will take all the market share between BKK-N.America.
 
Sean-SAN-
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Mon May 13, 2019 2:39 am

filipinoavgeek wrote:
I still find it strange that a smaller airline like PR flies to the US and Canada and make its Transpacific routes work (even if at a loss, although historically this wasn't the case, only in more recent years), while apart from SQ, even large Southeast Asian airlines like MH, TG, GI, or VN can't make North America work. I mean, considering the larger economy and the larger tourist market, shouldn't US-Thailand be a larger market than US-Philippines?


It's quite simple.. ULH flights are exponentially more expensive to operate, while SE Asia pax are notoriously price conscious and low revenue. On top of that you have government subsidized Chinese airlines offering tickets from many cities to SE Asia for $500-600.
 
Overthecascades
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Mon May 13, 2019 3:53 am

Sean-SAN- wrote:
filipinoavgeek wrote:
I still find it strange that a smaller airline like PR flies to the US and Canada and make its Transpacific routes work (even if at a loss, although historically this wasn't the case, only in more recent years), while apart from SQ, even large Southeast Asian airlines like MH, TG, GI, or VN can't make North America work. I mean, considering the larger economy and the larger tourist market, shouldn't US-Thailand be a larger market than US-Philippines?


It's quite simple.. ULH flights are exponentially more expensive to operate, while SE Asia pax are notoriously price conscious and low revenue. On top of that you have government subsidized Chinese airlines offering tickets from many cities to SE Asia for $500-600.


Nobody was answering the persons question. He’s comparing vs PR. All you said applies to both TG and PR
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Mon May 13, 2019 4:13 am

filipinoavgeek wrote:
I still find it strange that a smaller airline like PR flies to the US and Canada and make its Transpacific routes work (even if at a loss, although historically this wasn't the case, only in more recent years), while apart from SQ, even large Southeast Asian airlines like MH, TG, GI, or VN can't make North America work. I mean, considering the larger economy and the larger tourist market, shouldn't US-Thailand be a larger market than US-Philippines?


MNL-N. America is slightly shorter than BKK-N. America, LAX is 8270 miles from BKK but 'only' 7305 miles from MNL. JFK is only 157 miles further away, but most of PR's routes are a fair amount shorter. Mainland China and HKG are also a little bit out of the way when it comes to connections from MNL, whereas for BKK all of the Chinese hubs, HKG, ICN and NRT are close to the most direct route as the crow flies. Just speculation on my part though, I should add.

As a side note, VN are supposedly quite close to launching a nonstop flight to the US, initially the A350 was pencilled in, but there are rumours that it'll be the 789 now (maybe higher MTOW A350s will come in in the future, there was certainly an MOU for an additional 10 A359s for VN). Route almost certain to be SGN-LAX. VN is government owned and actually isn't required to make a profit on the route, it just needs to benefit Vietnam/SGN as a whole.

For MH and GA the US is too far to do nonstop profitably as there's so little premium traffic, that which exists will probably use a one-stop.
 
grbauc
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Mon May 13, 2019 4:21 am

YYZORD wrote:
Why don't TG just fly to YVR to serve some of the US market that's possible along w Canada than just re-trying to get the safety rating that they are failing in all the time.


Maybe they should do that also along with getting the much better option of US direct flights. YVR is not going to get much US traffic. Since there's not much Widebody US to YVR I'm not doing CRJ700/900 or 737's/ A320 to canada from US/LAX to Canada then to Asia. I'm a milage runner but I need WB for that kind of run or real cheap prices. Thailand Needs to get US clearance plain and simple to serve the market.
 
nethkt
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Mon May 13, 2019 4:46 am

On a side note, PR could operate those LAX, SFO, YVR flights simply because there are enough pax. Many Filipinos (live and) travel between home country and those destinations year round.
While less Malaysian, Thai and Indonesian live in the US/Canada.

I guess that is the same case why Thai makes profit on ZRH, FRA, MUC, CPH, ARN, OSL. It's simply because there are enough Thai pax who (live and) travel between Thailand and those cities.
The price competition for BKK-USA flights is fierce. Xiamen asks for $500 for BKK-LAX, this fare you can find almost year round. Not to mention MU, CZ, CA, HX, CX, CI, BR, NH, JL, KE, OZ which ask for a bit more. For the US east coast, great prices are always with ME3, TK and also those east Asia carriers. Flying to the US would be more of a 'political' thing for Thai.
Let's just blame it on yields.
 
filipinoavgeek
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Mon May 13, 2019 5:12 am

nethkt wrote:
I guess that is the same case why Thai makes profit on ZRH, FRA, MUC, CPH, ARN, OSL. It's simply because there are enough Thai pax who (live and) travel between Thailand and those cities.


I thought Thai's European routes were mainly more for the European tourist market than business or VFR? Hence why Norwegian also serves Bangkok. Anecdotally, when I flew BKK-CDG a few years back on an A380, half if not more of the passengers were French tourists returning home
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Mon May 13, 2019 5:37 am

I'd selfishly love to see TG back at LAX and JFK nonstop.
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Mon May 13, 2019 7:54 am

grbauc wrote:
YVR is not going to get much US traffic. Since there's not much Widebody US to YVR I'm not doing CRJ700/900 or 737's/ A320 to canada from US/LAX to Canada then to Asia.
grbauc wrote:
I'm a milage runner but I need WB for that kind of run or real cheap prices.

....at the risk of stating the obvious: your preferences aren't exactly reflective of the (1) typical nor (2) chased by ULH airlines, passenger.


Pellegrine wrote:
I'd selfishly love to see TG back at LAX and JFK nonstop.

Good thing is, there's so many available and debuting aircraft that can allow them to do so.

The bad thing is: some of the fundamental issues that made those routes so challenging for them, haven't really changed.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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Pellegrine
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Mon May 13, 2019 10:59 am

LAX772LR wrote:
grbauc wrote:
YVR is not going to get much US traffic. Since there's not much Widebody US to YVR I'm not doing CRJ700/900 or 737's/ A320 to canada from US/LAX to Canada then to Asia.
grbauc wrote:
I'm a milage runner but I need WB for that kind of run or real cheap prices.

....at the risk of stating the obvious: your preferences aren't exactly reflective of the (1) typical nor (2) chased by ULH airlines, passenger.


Pellegrine wrote:
I'd selfishly love to see TG back at LAX and JFK nonstop.

Good thing is, there's so many available and debuting aircraft that can allow them to do so.

The bad thing is: some of the fundamental issues that made those routes so challenging for them, haven't really changed.


I have found memories of TG W and J class and SQ J on the A345. Can't wait for a new flight from JFK for TG if they get their problems together. :cloudnine:
oh boy, here we go!!!
 
TheEuphorian
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Mon May 13, 2019 12:50 pm

Pellegrine wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
grbauc wrote:
YVR is not going to get much US traffic. Since there's not much Widebody US to YVR I'm not doing CRJ700/900 or 737's/ A320 to canada from US/LAX to Canada then to Asia.
grbauc wrote:
I'm a milage runner but I need WB for that kind of run or real cheap prices.

....at the risk of stating the obvious: your preferences aren't exactly reflective of the (1) typical nor (2) chased by ULH airlines, passenger.


Pellegrine wrote:
I'd selfishly love to see TG back at LAX and JFK nonstop.

Good thing is, there's so many available and debuting aircraft that can allow them to do so.

The bad thing is: some of the fundamental issues that made those routes so challenging for them, haven't really changed.


I have found memories of TG W and J class and SQ J on the A345. Can't wait for a new flight from JFK for TG if they get their problems together. :cloudnine:

Best case scenario is that TG atleast launches LAX/SFO/SEA/YVR within these 2 years, preferably with the A359/789.
 
hohd
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Mon May 13, 2019 1:09 pm

I would believe TG's Air authority than FAA. Thailand has been cleared from all countries including Canada to fly, except USA ?, After the Boeing fiasco FAA has no credibility now.
 
LurveBus
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Mon May 13, 2019 5:53 pm

filipinoavgeek wrote:
I still find it strange that a smaller airline like PR flies to the US and Canada and make its Transpacific routes work (even if at a loss, although historically this wasn't the case, only in more recent years), while apart from SQ, even large Southeast Asian airlines like MH, TG, GI, or VN can't make North America work. I mean, considering the larger economy and the larger tourist market, shouldn't US-Thailand be a larger market than US-Philippines?


The reasons why US-Thailand is a struggle for TG are the exact same reasons why Europe-MNL is a struggle for PR. Remember, even PR is a player in the US-Thailand market. Geography plays a huge part.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Mon May 13, 2019 6:29 pm

hohd wrote:
I would believe TG's Air authority than FAA. Thailand has been cleared from all countries including Canada to fly, except USA ?, After the Boeing fiasco FAA has no credibility now.

All of which is completely irrelevant to the issue at hand, seeing as if the airline wishes to serve a nation, it must comport to that nation's CAA's requirements. What anyone "believes" is immaterial.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
dmstorm22
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Mon May 13, 2019 8:55 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
filipinoavgeek wrote:
I still find it strange that a smaller airline like PR flies to the US and Canada and make its Transpacific routes work (even if at a loss, although historically this wasn't the case, only in more recent years), while apart from SQ, even large Southeast Asian airlines like MH, TG, GI, or VN can't make North America work. I mean, considering the larger economy and the larger tourist market, shouldn't US-Thailand be a larger market than US-Philippines?


MNL-N. America is slightly shorter than BKK-N. America, LAX is 8270 miles from BKK but 'only' 7305 miles from MNL. JFK is only 157 miles further away, but most of PR's routes are a fair amount shorter. Mainland China and HKG are also a little bit out of the way when it comes to connections from MNL, whereas for BKK all of the Chinese hubs, HKG, ICN and NRT are close to the most direct route as the crow flies. Just speculation on my part though, I should add.

As a side note, VN are supposedly quite close to launching a nonstop flight to the US, initially the A350 was pencilled in, but there are rumours that it'll be the 789 now (maybe higher MTOW A350s will come in in the future, there was certainly an MOU for an additional 10 A359s for VN). Route almost certain to be SGN-LAX. VN is government owned and actually isn't required to make a profit on the route, it just needs to benefit Vietnam/SGN as a whole.

For MH and GA the US is too far to do nonstop profitably as there's so little premium traffic, that which exists will probably use a one-stop.


I could be wrong, but I think the Filipino population that lives in the US is larger and therefore travels back more than the Thai, or Indonesian populations that are in the US. The feed from the US POS is higher?

Also, as others have mentioned, the Philippines is closer to the US than these other locations mentioned, which even if it seems little, in the ULH world it makes up a lot.
 
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UPlog
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Mon May 13, 2019 9:41 pm

hohd wrote:
I would believe TG's Air authority than FAA. Thailand has been cleared from all countries including Canada to fly, except USA ?, After the Boeing fiasco FAA has no credibility now.


If you have been following Thailand for a few years you would know how much of a mickey mouse aviation oversight regime they had.

As an example for years they had no qualified 777 inspector examiners, so every Thai 777 licensed pilot was not properly evaluated or ongoingly observed.
Another example is that many smaller Thai carriers had zero inspectors (ops, maintenance, admin) assigned to them, as the government simply did not have required number of inspectors on payroll, so these airlines operated nearly all on their own without oversight.
There are dozens of similar such large lapses which cause many nations to ban Thai carriers.

Even with this new ICAO audit, Thailand knows it still has issues and as the article states they a requesting the audit to help identify their ongoing deficiencies so they can correct them before requesting the U.S authorities take a look.

So for whatever failures you believe the FAA has, they are hardly comparable to Thailand which lacked some of the most basic required aviation safety systems.

(and I say this as a pilot, who has colleagues that have flown in Thailand)
 
grbauc
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Mon May 13, 2019 11:00 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
grbauc wrote:
YVR is not going to get much US traffic. Since there's not much Widebody US to YVR I'm not doing CRJ700/900 or 737's/ A320 to canada from US/LAX to Canada then to Asia.
grbauc wrote:
I'm a milage runner but I need WB for that kind of run or real cheap prices.

....at the risk of stating the obvious: your preferences aren't exactly reflective of the (1) typical nor (2) chased by ULH airlines, passenger.



Agree 100% but the point is still valid. "or real cheap prices" this part anyways.

How many are going to fly to YVR from the US to go to Thailand. Not many is the obvious answer I'd believe.
 
grbauc
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Mon May 13, 2019 11:17 pm

hohd wrote:
I would believe TG's Air authority than FAA. Thailand has been cleared from all countries including Canada to fly, except USA ?, After the Boeing fiasco FAA has no credibility now.



Boeing and FAA Max issue is a failure for sure. Not sure fiasco is the right term, there credibility for sure is tarnished but far from no credibility.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Tue May 14, 2019 12:58 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Good thing is, there's so many available and debuting aircraft that can allow them to do so.

The bad thing is: some of the fundamental issues that made those routes so challenging for them, haven't really changed.

Coincidentally, Thai is mulling a renewal of its fleet. This Flightglobal article also notes a few of those challenges.....

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ra-458084/
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
filipinoavgeek
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Tue May 14, 2019 1:01 am

Considering Thailand's large economy and high tourist numbers, as well as the positive image that TG has, I'm kind of surprised they can't get their act together when it comes to aviation matters.
 
lawair
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Tue May 28, 2019 10:49 am

Thailand seems to have passed the ICAO audit again: https://m.bangkokpost.com/news/transpor ... nspections

The red flag was lifted in 2017 when particular issues were addressed, but apparently there's been improvement since then. I also find interesting that one of the sticking points for the FAA audit appears to be that there aren't enough ATR inspectors.
 
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LAXintl
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regain U.S Cat-1 safety rating

Wed May 29, 2019 7:16 pm

ICAO says Thailand achieved a standards score of 65%, which while exceeds the minimum passIng score of 60% is hardly a wringing endorsement of Thai civil aviation sector.

I am sure ICAO has many findings that will require corrective action before they seek an FAA review.
From the desert to the sea, to all of Southern California
 
strfyr51
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regin U.S Cat-1 safetating

Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:29 am

hohd wrote:
I would believe TG's Air authority than FAA. Thailand has been cleared from all countries including Canada to fly, except USA ?, After the Boeing fisco FAA has no credibility now.


So? you OBVIOUYSLY don't hold any FAA issued Airworthiness or Airman Certificate or you wouldn't be saying something so Stupid. Because the LAST thing in LIFE you ever want is to be on the wrong side of an FAA investigation. I don't know 50 Mechanics or even 10 pilots who would risk their Licenses to piss off the FAA.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Thailand seeks new ICAO safety audit, hope to regin U.S Cat-1 safetating

Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:39 am

strfyr51 wrote:
hohd wrote:
I would believe TG's Air authority than FAA. Thailand has been cleared from all countries including Canada to fly, except USA ?, After the Boeing fisco FAA has no credibility now.


So? you OBVIOUYSLY don't hold any FAA issued Airworthiness or Airman Certificate or you wouldn't be saying something so Stupid. Because the LAST thing in LIFE you ever want is to be on the wrong side of an FAA investigation. I don't know 50 Mechanics or even 10 pilots who would risk their Licenses to piss off the FAA.

If and when TG get's their ACT together? They'll bre welcomed back to the USA. But until then? there are PLENTY of Asian carriers who DO comply with the FAA Regs.

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