User avatar
Erebus
Posts: 1032
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 2:40 am

Re: Qatar airways is drastically simplifying its fleet (plan)

Tue May 14, 2019 4:44 pm

chiad wrote:
So unless more orders are taken QR could end up with following fleet in 2025
Airbus A321neo/LR - 50
Airbus A350-9/1000 - 76
Boeing 777-8/9 - 60
Boeing 787-8/9 - 60
Total - 246

Looks like a good plan to me.


Not a very "drastic" simplification of fleet though.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Topic Author
Posts: 9777
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Qatar airways is drastically simplifying its fleet (plan)

Tue May 14, 2019 5:01 pm

Erebus wrote:
So unless more orders are taken QR could end up with following fleet in 2025
Airbus A321neo/LR - 50
Airbus A350-9/1000 - 76
Boeing 777-8/9 - 60
Boeing 787-8/9 - 60
Total - 246

Looks like a good plan to me.


Still about 25% more a/c than today, quite a massive expansion.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Jomar777
Posts: 365
Joined: Tue Oct 20, 2015 8:45 am

Re: Qatar airways is drastically simplifying its fleet (plan)

Wed May 15, 2019 8:22 am

frigatebird wrote:
Qatara340 wrote:
marcogr12 wrote:
The A321 is too big an aircraft for many a QR market especially during winter season when passenger loads fall considerably..In the Balkan regions QR flights have 50-70pax on a A320,which is configured in a very spacious layout compared to the 174-180 eurostandard..Imagine on A321..I can understand the cost of operating the A319 but the A320 and the A320Neo is a different ballgame..


The A321 is too big for some routes, BUT Qatar can rely on it for cargo; as it carries a lot more Cargo than the A320. After the Blockade, all of the perishable foods now arrive via air and the rest via the sea. The A321 will also be able to fly to places where the 787 is too big of a plane. Its a versatile aircraft.


And the A321neo is probably cheaper to fly than an A320ceo (I cannot back this up with numbers though, just my hunch). But hey, it's AAB, who knows he'll surprise us again, maybe with an A220 order :biggrin:

Jomar777 wrote:
As for the A380s, I believe that they should indeed be replaced by the B77X but this order should be trimmed since the B789 and A350s (A359 and A35k)will be able to cater for most of their routes.

Why? QR ordered the 777X (50x -9 and 10x -8) as replacement for their current 777 fleet (now 48x 77W and 9x 77L). The 787-9 will replace QR's A330s.

I do have a question mark regarding the 777-8 order though. QR has ordered 5 319t A350-1000s, which could make the 777-8 unnecessary. So the -8 order might be converted to -9s, to replace A380s rather than 77L's.

One can wonder when QR's expansion will end, but they've even hinted at another order at Paris, so AAB still sees enough possibilities I suppose.


Your question mark abour teir 10x777-8 order just answered your question. With the A35k, those might not be needed. Their current B777 fleet is quite young still so might not need to be replaced so soon. You need to consider also that the ongoing blockade is hurting them financially so route expansions are mianly to keep aircrafts in the air rather than on the ground. A lot of those routes were created using B788s previously been flown to DXB and Saudi, for example.

They could, alternativelly, swap some or all their B778s to B779s and defer the delivery so that these not only replace the A380s on the fleet but also gradually replace also their B77Ws whenthey start to show age.

Note also that their B77W fleet is being refurbished towards having their new Q-Suite on business. It would be pointless to do this if they did not plan to keep them long time.
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 2822
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Qatar airways is drastically simplifying its fleet (plan)

Thu May 16, 2019 4:28 am

frigatebird wrote:
EChid wrote:
chiad wrote:
So unless more orders are taken QR could end up with following fleet in 2025
Airbus A321neo/LR - 50
Airbus A350-9/1000 - 76
Boeing 777-8/9 - 60
Boeing 787-8/9 - 60
Total - 246

Looks like a good plan to me.

Add some 77Ws to that. It's kind of a crazy plan if you consider the fact that the oldest 77Ws are currently 12 years old. Some are only a few months old. I understand that some A380s are being replaced (10) by the 777X, but why are they replacing their 77Ws so early and in such large numbers? This order sheet still seems insane to me. WAY too many 777Xs, and unless more 778 orders come in it's going to be an ugly unicorn to have around.


Not all 60 777X will be delivered by 2026. Like EK's 777X order, it will be used to gradually replace the their current 777s spread over something like 10 years. And most of 787-8s will be gone too, they will be retired after 12 years of service (returned to the lessor I believe)

So, how about:
Airbus A321neo/LR - 50
Airbus A350-9/1000 - 76
Boeing 777-8/9 - 30
Boeing 787-8/9 - 40
Anything else AAB will order in the next couple of years: 50?


FWIW, only 5 of the Dreamliners are leased---all the result of a sale-leaseback with Standard Chartered that also covered three B77Ws. The other 25 are owned. Now, the A350s are being financed primarily with sale-leasebacks (21 of the 40 direct orders to QR delivered so far have been financed with sale-leasebacks---20 A359s and 1 A35K), plus 3 A359s leased from JJ in their configuration and paint.

Jomar777 wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
Qatara340 wrote:

The A321 is too big for some routes, BUT Qatar can rely on it for cargo; as it carries a lot more Cargo than the A320. After the Blockade, all of the perishable foods now arrive via air and the rest via the sea. The A321 will also be able to fly to places where the 787 is too big of a plane. Its a versatile aircraft.


And the A321neo is probably cheaper to fly than an A320ceo (I cannot back this up with numbers though, just my hunch). But hey, it's AAB, who knows he'll surprise us again, maybe with an A220 order :biggrin:

Jomar777 wrote:
As for the A380s, I believe that they should indeed be replaced by the B77X but this order should be trimmed since the B789 and A350s (A359 and A35k)will be able to cater for most of their routes.

Why? QR ordered the 777X (50x -9 and 10x -8) as replacement for their current 777 fleet (now 48x 77W and 9x 77L). The 787-9 will replace QR's A330s.

I do have a question mark regarding the 777-8 order though. QR has ordered 5 319t A350-1000s, which could make the 777-8 unnecessary. So the -8 order might be converted to -9s, to replace A380s rather than 77L's.

One can wonder when QR's expansion will end, but they've even hinted at another order at Paris, so AAB still sees enough possibilities I suppose.


Your question mark abour teir 10x777-8 order just answered your question. With the A35k, those might not be needed. Their current B777 fleet is quite young still so might not need to be replaced so soon. You need to consider also that the ongoing blockade is hurting them financially so route expansions are mianly to keep aircrafts in the air rather than on the ground. A lot of those routes were created using B788s previously been flown to DXB and Saudi, for example.

They could, alternativelly, swap some or all their B778s to B779s and defer the delivery so that these not only replace the A380s on the fleet but also gradually replace also their B77Ws whenthey start to show age.

Note also that their B77W fleet is being refurbished towards having their new Q-Suite on business. It would be pointless to do this if they did not plan to keep them long time.


So long as DOH-AKL is a route they will fly, the B777-8X is a plane they will need, as that requires at least 3 frames all by itself. In fact, until SQ resumed Flights 22 and 21, that was the world's longest flight, blocked at 18:20 on the return.
Last edited by aemoreira1981 on Thu May 16, 2019 4:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 17903
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Qatar airways is drastically simplifying its fleet (plan)

Thu May 16, 2019 4:36 am

jagraham wrote:
LH658 wrote:
I don't sit at QR HQ, though I thought the A320 were perfect for smaller markets in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, Balkans, and Africa.


Plus the NEO fuel savings are minimal under 2 hours. Probably, as with the A330, there is a flight time where the CEO is more fuel efficient because it is lighter.

The A320 NEO only saves 15% on short routes...

https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comme ... l_savings/
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
User avatar
MoKa777
Posts: 933
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:47 am

Re: Qatar airways is drastically simplifying its fleet (plan)

Thu May 16, 2019 7:51 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
So long as DOH-AKL is a route they will fly, the B777-8X is a plane they will need, as that requires at least 3 frames all by itself. In fact, until SQ resumed Flights 22 and 21, that was the world's longest flight, blocked at 18:20 on the return.


I believe DOH-AKL-DOH to be perfectly doable with the A35K - especially at 319t.

From the QF Project Sunrise thread, member flipdewaf (Fred) has run some numbers which show that the A35K can do some amazing things (I'm not discounting the abilities of the 778 but with that one being a thoroughbred ULR bird, its capabilities are expected).

Now, I realise that Doha is HOT, but QR920 (DOH-AKL) departs at around 0200am and is the shorter of the two legs (AKL-DOH being longer, time-wise) so performance should not be compromised.
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
User avatar
aemoreira1981
Posts: 2822
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Qatar airways is drastically simplifying its fleet (plan)

Thu May 16, 2019 12:22 pm

MoKa777 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
So long as DOH-AKL is a route they will fly, the B777-8X is a plane they will need, as that requires at least 3 frames all by itself. In fact, until SQ resumed Flights 22 and 21, that was the world's longest flight, blocked at 18:20 on the return.


I believe DOH-AKL-DOH to be perfectly doable with the A35K - especially at 319t.

From the QF Project Sunrise thread, member flipdewaf (Fred) has run some numbers which show that the A35K can do some amazing things (I'm not discounting the abilities of the 778 but with that one being a thoroughbred ULR bird, its capabilities are expected).

Now, I realise that Doha is HOT, but QR920 (DOH-AKL) departs at around 0200am and is the shorter of the two legs (AKL-DOH being longer, time-wise) so performance should not be compromised.


What is the declared alternate? With the Gulf boycott and blockade of Qatar, one has to carry enough fuel plus 5 percent contingency, execute one missed approach, divert to the alternate, and still have 30 minutes of fuel. AKL to DOH is 7860 nmi, slightly longer than PER to LHR at 7840 nmi, but QF can declare multiple alternates to LHR, including LGW and STN. Right now, with the blockade, the only available suitable alternate is MCT, which is 385 nmi east. As such, you're talking about needing fuel for about 8650 nmi, and that only partially accounts for vectoring, and you still need 30 minutes of reserve. I don't think even a 319t A35K can do that. (If not for the blockade, BAH or AUH could be declared alternates.)
 
User avatar
MoKa777
Posts: 933
Joined: Fri Oct 21, 2016 11:47 am

Re: Qatar airways is drastically simplifying its fleet (plan)

Thu May 16, 2019 12:47 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
MoKa777 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
So long as DOH-AKL is a route they will fly, the B777-8X is a plane they will need, as that requires at least 3 frames all by itself. In fact, until SQ resumed Flights 22 and 21, that was the world's longest flight, blocked at 18:20 on the return.


I believe DOH-AKL-DOH to be perfectly doable with the A35K - especially at 319t.

From the QF Project Sunrise thread, member flipdewaf (Fred) has run some numbers which show that the A35K can do some amazing things (I'm not discounting the abilities of the 778 but with that one being a thoroughbred ULR bird, its capabilities are expected).

Now, I realise that Doha is HOT, but QR920 (DOH-AKL) departs at around 0200am and is the shorter of the two legs (AKL-DOH being longer, time-wise) so performance should not be compromised.


What is the declared alternate? With the Gulf boycott and blockade of Qatar, one has to carry enough fuel plus 5 percent contingency, execute one missed approach, divert to the alternate, and still have 30 minutes of fuel. AKL to DOH is 7860 nmi, slightly longer than PER to LHR at 7840 nmi, but QF can declare multiple alternates to LHR, including LGW and STN. Right now, with the blockade, the only available suitable alternate is MCT, which is 385 nmi east. As such, you're talking about needing fuel for about 8650 nmi, and that only partially accounts for vectoring, and you still need 30 minutes of reserve. I don't think even a 319t A35K can do that. (If not for the blockade, BAH or AUH could be declared alternates.)


flipdewaf wrote:
I guess this is the best way to post this. There i to variants of the A35K for comparison. One with DOW at 147000kg and one with DOW at 150000kg. The TSFC is listed in the data.
Image

Fred


Apparently, the A35K can do 20 hours and still have 70 minutes of reserves.

The distance used for this was 9198nmi.

DOH-AKL-DOH should be a perfectly doable with the A35K.
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
jagraham
Posts: 874
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: Qatar airways is drastically simplifying its fleet (plan)

Thu May 16, 2019 3:53 pm

lightsaber wrote:
jagraham wrote:
LH658 wrote:
I don't sit at QR HQ, though I thought the A320 were perfect for smaller markets in Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Iran, Turkey, Balkans, and Africa.


Plus the NEO fuel savings are minimal under 2 hours. Probably, as with the A330, there is a flight time where the CEO is more fuel efficient because it is lighter.

The A320 NEO only saves 15% on short routes...

https://www.reddit.com/r/aviation/comme ... l_savings/


The problem with the article is 1) the fuel savings is per seat, and the author makes note of a Lufthansa change where they added two rows of seats. Which dramatically increases the per seat savings without changing the trip fuel; 2) it covers the whole A320 family and jumbles everything together, so savings for the 320NEO can't be distinguished from the 321NEO even before seating changes, and 3) doesn't say what the baseline is (I am assuming it is a CEO to NEO change and other manufacturer's planes are not considered).

LEAP says the LEAP 1A gives 15% fuel burn improvement versus CEO engines https://www.safran-aircraft-engines.com ... ap/leap-1a
so anything an airline is seeing over that is due to configuration changes.

The NEO, especially the A321NEO, is a great single aisle plane. I just can't infer how great from the reddit article because of the mushy statistics.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos