DenverTed
Posts: 202
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:12 pm

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Tue May 21, 2019 3:28 pm

Where could you put two new parallel runways that are within 30 miles of downtown Seattle? Also, I believe the weather is a factor, and some locations don't work so well. This is why PAE is the obvious solution, when Boeing eventually moves to a less congested area...like Moses Lake or Spokane.
 
747megatop
Posts: 1694
Joined: Wed May 23, 2007 8:22 am

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Tue May 21, 2019 4:29 pm

MLIAA wrote:
They’re trying to get another airport built to serve the Seattle metro area. The possibilities and speculation begin! Alaska widebody service, new PNW AA hub...

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/recomm ... /949913410


I don't think they have enough land in the Seattle metro area to build a greenfield airport from scratch. They should think of something out of the box

- Interlink Paine field and Seatac by dedicated high speed train cars & passengers processors distributed across the region
- get rid of all the terminal buildings on the eastern side of seatac airport; decommission the center runway; move the eastern most runway to the far right so that
left and right runways have maximum spacing allowing for more parallel operations perhaps. Have a midfield terminal; maybe lengthwise (similar to the McNamara terminal of DTW) given that the runway spacing may
not allow a horizontal orientation of the terminals (ATL style).
- with the interlinking of paine field, seatac airports and passenger processors...the runways can be used as resources based on a realtime intelligent demand/supply scenario where planes can land anywhere and then passengers can head to whichever passenger processors they want to (and other way around..they can head from the passenger processors they are in to wherever the planes are).
 
LH707330
Posts: 2173
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:27 pm

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Tue May 21, 2019 4:30 pm

From my understanding, the major constraint is gate space, although I have seen some pretty long conga lines for takeoff a number of times. Adding some gates, or maybe moving the regional aircraft to remote stands and reconfiguring that central terminal area to accommodate upgauged aircraft would likely fix a lot of that problem.

Regarding the airspace use, the converging-path SIDs don't help, I wonder if they could create new ones that turn on course sooner. As long as the community noise contours stay below X decibels in given areas, they should be ok with that. The QX Q400s get turned on course way sooner than the jets, so there must be something that could be done there.
 
DenverTed
Posts: 202
Joined: Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:12 pm

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Tue May 21, 2019 6:46 pm

I have to wonder if the trains are past their shelf life and capacity. Possibly time to reconfigure connect the North and South satellite into one large satellite with a bridge and a train. The option to walk or use moving sidewalks and avoid the train is nice, especially if the train breaks.
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 1331
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Tue May 21, 2019 7:06 pm

Quick tidbits:
-I moved to Bremerton in 1984, in Nov 84 a Dem was elected Gov, no R's since. The state senate and legislature have varied since 84 from 60% D to 52% R, so some tempering of the total crazy concepts.

- The fight to build the 3rd runway was over a decade, they had to restore an incredible amount of habitat as tribute. It was said with the approval that this was the last straw - never again.

-Bremerton would be a decent location for an airport like Burbank, it can handle 737 sized aircraft with lots of land around. A lot of excavation to get things flat, but it is mostly timberland owned by just a few, but good high capacity soil. A decade or so ago a NASCAR track was proposed there, but of course the developers wanted a lot of public money for their private endeavor. It would need a connector highway from WA-16 to reduce the drive time from the Narrows Bridge. No passenger service currently, the best it had was basically 12 pax planes to SEA.

-McCord's airfield is the home of the 62nd airlift wing, from their site, it has about 20% of all C-17's assigned to it:
McChord Field is home to a wide variety of units and missions. The 62nd Airlift Wing is the active duty wing on McChord Field. The 62nd Airlift Wing is joined by its Reserve partner the 446th Airlift Wing. Together, the two wings fly 50 C-17 Globemaster IIIs to provide combat airlift for America. Joint Base Lewis-McChord also hosts the Western Air Defense Sector, an Air National Guard unit; the 22nd Special Tactics Squadron; the 361st Recruiting Squadron and a number of other units across the installation.


Anyway, as the whole JBLM is 147 square miles and has over 40,000 personnel it is unlikely DOD would let the existing airfield to be used. But land the US Government owns at JBLM to the south and east of the developed base could be a good site, it is relatively flat and probably decent soil.

- Most sites to the South, Southeast, and East of SEA that look great and are flat are valleys filled with mudflows from Rainier. Just east of SEA in Tukwilla one story buildings need 80 foot long piles. Higher up a post indicated that if it is flat farmland it is because it is too crappy to build on - he is spot on.

- I would love to drive an hour to SEA, to board a $50 fare bullet train for 90 minutes to Moses Lake in order to fly two hours to LAX. Moses Lake has a population of 24K, so unless a big migrant center is build and the airport can hire all those waiting for asylum it would need everyone to travel on the train. The train would be pricey, the current Cascades tunnel below Stevens Pass is 7.8 miles with the route having 2.2% grades and lots of curves. The tunnel speed is 30 mph for passenger trains. A tunnel below Snoqualmie Pass would still need to climb to 2,600 ft elevation and have 2% grades and lots of curves. A 25 mile tunnel would cost bazillions.
 
ytib
Posts: 478
Joined: Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:22 am

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Tue May 21, 2019 7:15 pm

DenverTed wrote:
I have to wonder if the trains are past their shelf life and capacity. Possibly time to reconfigure connect the North and South satellite into one large satellite with a bridge and a train. The option to walk or use moving sidewalks and avoid the train is nice, especially if the train breaks.


I may have been on a train a couple of times at SEA which is at capacity (I have traveled through SEA quite frequently the past 5 years). It is annoying when you come into the N gates and then have to go to C or D especially right now with the C train stop closed until the end of the year. On the S gates once the IAF is moved they will be able to use the full train. Right now the front car is limited to those who have cleared customs at the S concourse and is considered a non-secure area since they have not recleared security.

DEN on the other hand, the trains can't handle all of the passengers at many times during the day getting on at C towards the terminal but that would be a different thread.
Airbus:318,319,320,321,332,333,388
Boeing:707,717,732,733,734,73Q,735,73G,738,7M8,739,752,753,742,74L,744,762,763,772,77L,77W,789
Misc:142,CN1,CR2,CR7,DC8,DH2,DH8,D8Q,D10,D95,EM2,ER3,ER4,E70,100,J31,M11,M83,M88,M90,SF3

Where is Neil
 
DFW17L
Posts: 139
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2015 2:53 am

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Tue May 21, 2019 8:43 pm

sealevel wrote:
Just wait for Mt. Rainier to wake up, you will have plenty of room...


Please, call it what it is, "Volcano Rainier". :eek:

I remember when I was a Puget Sounder some years ago, I was speaking to a recent California transplant. He looked absolutely stunned when I referred to it as such.
 
User avatar
SEAxSANxBOS
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2018 11:10 am

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Tue May 21, 2019 11:16 pm

DenverTed wrote:
smithbs wrote:
SEA is hardly utilized well, and any solution must address the TSA situation, which in my flying experience is the worst in the country.


This is true. If you arrive at the ends of the terminal, they redirect you to line 3, which is a long walk, and then a haphazard line. This should be fixed to be consistent and obvious. Usually the times are not too bad, I will say that.


This past weekend was a prime example of passengers waiting 2 plus hours in the TSA lines just to miss their flights. Lines wrapped 5 times over and extending into the parking garage...
Does not reflect the views of Delta Air Lines

Favorite Airports: SEA, SAN, BOS, MSP, IND, CVG
 
frmrCapCadet
Posts: 2922
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Tue May 21, 2019 11:39 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
Quick tidbits:
-I moved to Bremerton in 1984, in Nov 84 a Dem was elected Gov, no R's since. The state senate and legislature have varied since 84 from 60% D to 52% R, so some tempering of the total crazy concepts.

- The fight to build the 3rd runway was over a decade, they had to restore an incredible amount of habitat as tribute. It was said with the approval that this was the last straw - never again.

-Bremerton would be a decent location for an airport like Burbank, it can handle 737 sized aircraft with lots of land around. A lot of excavation to get things flat, but it is mostly timberland owned by just a few, but good high capacity soil. A decade or so ago a NASCAR track was proposed there, but of course the developers wanted a lot of public money for their private endeavor. It would need a connector highway from WA-16 to reduce the drive time from the Narrows Bridge. No passenger service currently, the best it had was basically 12 pax planes to SEA.

-McCord's airfield is the home of the 62nd airlift wing, from their site, it has about 20% of all C-17's assigned to it:
McChord Field is home to a wide variety of units and missions. The 62nd Airlift Wing is the active duty wing on McChord Field. The 62nd Airlift Wing is joined by its Reserve partner the 446th Airlift Wing. Together, the two wings fly 50 C-17 Globemaster IIIs to provide combat airlift for America. Joint Base Lewis-McChord also hosts the Western Air Defense Sector, an Air National Guard unit; the 22nd Special Tactics Squadron; the 361st Recruiting Squadron and a number of other units across the installation.


Anyway, as the whole JBLM is 147 square miles and has over 40,000 personnel it is unlikely DOD would let the existing airfield to be used. But land the US Government owns at JBLM to the south and east of the developed base could be a good site, it is relatively flat and probably decent soil.

- Most sites to the South, Southeast, and East of SEA that look great and are flat are valleys filled with mudflows from Rainier. Just east of SEA in Tukwilla one story buildings need 80 foot long piles. Higher up a post indicated that if it is flat farmland it is because it is too crappy to build on - he is spot on.

- I would love to drive an hour to SEA, to board a $50 fare bullet train for 90 minutes to Moses Lake in order to fly two hours to LAX. Moses Lake has a population of 24K, so unless a big migrant center is build and the airport can hire all those waiting for asylum it would need everyone to travel on the train. The train would be pricey, the current Cascades tunnel below Stevens Pass is 7.8 miles with the route having 2.2% grades and lots of curves. The tunnel speed is 30 mph for passenger trains. A tunnel below Snoqualmie Pass would still need to climb to 2,600 ft elevation and have 2% grades and lots of curves. A 25 mile tunnel would cost bazillions.


The race track is still somewhat on course. But NASCAR has been in an attendance slump which has a good likelihood of killing any new tracks. While I don't think Bremerton Airport will be a regional, I do think they should get some sort of options on about 8 square miles of land, possible now. Sort of just in case.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 1331
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Wed May 22, 2019 12:42 am

DFW17L wrote:
sealevel wrote:
Just wait for Mt. Rainier to wake up, you will have plenty of room...


Please, call it what it is, "Volcano Rainier". :eek:

I remember when I was a Puget Sounder some years ago, I was speaking to a recent California transplant. He looked absolutely stunned when I referred to it as such.


This will help them worry at night.

https://volcanoes.usgs.gov/volcanoes/mo ... ahars.html

I read elsewhere the depth of the mud flows was often over 100 feet deep. Yikes!!
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9527
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Wed May 22, 2019 2:59 am

ytib wrote:
DenverTed wrote:
I have to wonder if the trains are past their shelf life and capacity. Possibly time to reconfigure connect the North and South satellite into one large satellite with a bridge and a train. The option to walk or use moving sidewalks and avoid the train is nice, especially if the train breaks.


I may have been on a train a couple of times at SEA which is at capacity (I have traveled through SEA quite frequently the past 5 years). It is annoying when you come into the N gates and then have to go to C or D especially right now with the C train stop closed until the end of the year. On the S gates once the IAF is moved they will be able to use the full train. Right now the front car is limited to those who have cleared customs at the S concourse and is considered a non-secure area since they have not recleared security.

DEN on the other hand, the trains can't handle all of the passengers at many times during the day getting on at C towards the terminal but that would be a different thread.


While the C station being closed isn’t good, I’ve timed going from the farthest gate in N to the farthest gate in S and just walking normal speed and using the trains it was about 11 minutes. That doesn’t seem all that unreasonable. I guess if the trains are packed at a given time that might be an issue.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
N174UA
Posts: 1010
Joined: Thu Jun 01, 2006 4:17 pm

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Wed May 22, 2019 4:03 am

smithbs wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
I feel like Seattle's residents are their own worst enemy's. Both on a personal scale and a societal scale. I have the definition of a love hate relationship with my city.


Seattle area is too bipolar. We know we need it, don't want to pay for it, want to build it, but just nowhere near me personally. We'll vote for it now because it sounds like a good idea, and then vote away the funds when the bill actually arrives and is big enough to make Inslee blush (if that is possible). Good luck!

How poor Moses Lake gets pulled into this I don't know. It's a long way in time and geography, and there's not even commercial service there. People who live in ML drive to the Tri-Cities (1 hour) to get a flight, even when Wenatchee gets its own commercial service and is closer to the west side.

I vote with the others - get SEA working more efficiently while getting PAE up and running. SEA is hardly utilized well, and any solution must address the TSA situation, which in my flying experience is the worst in the country.


As someone who lived in the Seattle area for 20 years, half of which was a few miles south of PAE, I also can't see how, or where, a brand new airport could be built. PAE makes a lot of sense, but to expand the level of service beyond the current passenger operation would take a big change in mindset by the people who live nearby, who fought for years against it. Similarly, the thought of taking a high-speed train over/under the Cascades to MWH (Moses Lake) is beyond ludicrous to me! What would be the cost per mile to build that high speed train????

UA in particular is side-stepping SEA for its growth in meeting higher demand in Washington state. They have added a nonstop from PSC-LAX, and also added a third nonstop from PSC-DEN. On the west side, they have invested in PAE to meet that demand, yet they aren't adding more flights at SEA. Similarly, Delta has expanded in PSC also, by adding a second daily flight to MSP, and they upguage SLC with A320/737 in the summer season.

I now live in the Tri-Cities, and gladly fly out of PSC. The airport just underwent a big renovation 2 years ago, and it's a great airport to fly through now, very efficient. And that word is getting out, with continued year over year growth here. Just last month, the Port of Pasco started on their next 20 year master plan, which will probably include a few more gates. The Port of Pasco also has the option to extend the longest runway by another 1,500', bringing it to 9,200'.

As far as SEA goes, to me the solution would be a balanced expansion of PAE with a similar operation out of either OLM or McChord. This approach would meet the growing populations at either end of the Puget Sound. The real question though becomes do the local leaders have the will to see it through and find a way to fund it? Based on what I know and have seen, particularly with the 3rd runway battle in the late '90s, I highly doubt it. But stranger things have happened.

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