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New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sat May 18, 2019 11:52 pm
by MLIAA
They’re trying to get another airport built to serve the Seattle metro area. The possibilities and speculation begin! Alaska widebody service, new PNW AA hub...

https://www.kiro7.com/news/local/recomm ... /949913410

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:01 am
by Fargo
Good luck with this, where is there land available to build a new airport? Moses Lake is way too far.

Seattle/Tacoma definitely needs a new greenfield airport, but I don't think it can be done in a location that is convenient to downtown.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:01 am
by Prost
Knowing how we operate here in Seattle, I doubt anything will happen before 2040.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:20 am
by StuckInCA
Moses Lake ?!?! :roll:

That's less realistic than just using Portland or Vancouver.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:23 am
by speedbird52
StuckInCA wrote:
Moses Lake ?!?! :roll:

That's less realistic than just using Portland or Vancouver.

I would genuinely rather go to San Fransisco and connect

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:24 am
by StuckInCA
speedbird52 wrote:
I would genuinely rather go to San Fransisco and connect


I'd rather do almost anything than get myself to Moses Lake to start an international journey.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:29 am
by Noise
Why not an airport near Enumclaw? Or an airport near Burlington?

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:30 am
by speedbird52
This whole idea is a wasteful joke. It's just because the Senator doesn't want an airport in her back yard. What about all those plans for expansion?

https://i0.wp.com/www.theurbanist.org/w ... .png?ssl=1

https://www.westsideseattle.com/sites/d ... .58_pm.png

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:31 am
by speedbird52
Noise wrote:
Why not an airport near Enumclaw? Or an airport near Burlington?

Why not make Bellingham our main airport

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:39 am
by gunsontheroof
"We are really at near capacity at Sea-Tac Airport and it's the smallest international airport in the country with no room to grow so we have got to figure out some options here," Keiser said.

Actually...
https://panethos.wordpress.com/2013/01/ ... y-acreage/

BOS, PHL and SAN (among others) are all smaller than SEA.

As for the main subject, I look forward to this airport opening in 2075.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:41 am
by StuckInCA
speedbird52 wrote:
Why not make Bellingham our main airport


I, and probably the majority of other frequent Seatac flyers, would rather connect than get up to Bellingham.

It will be interesting to see if they can come up with a location to even start studying (forever). I can't picture many good solutions other than expanding Seatac. For something like Bellingham to work, I'd have to be able to get there by high speed rail from Bellevue. Not slow rail from Seattle. Not driving. I can't picture a high speed rail connection to Moses lake given the presence of the Cascades. It would be unbelievably expensive. You could probably pay everyone near Seatac fair market value plus $1M USD to move away for what it would cost to create that rail link.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:46 am
by mham001
Why not West Seattle, those houses are getting old...

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:48 am
by gunsontheroof
speedbird52 wrote:
This whole idea is a wasteful joke. It's just because the Senator doesn't want an airport in her back yard. What about all those plans for expansion?

https://i0.wp.com/www.theurbanist.org/w ... .png?ssl=1

https://www.westsideseattle.com/sites/d ... .58_pm.png


In addition to these expansion plans, I have to wonder if it would be possible to build a fourth runway over the current taxiway T to add capacity. There would certainly be spacing issues to deal with on the ATC side, but I have to wonder if that would be a viable option when additional terminals/gates are built.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 12:58 am
by DFW17L
I wouldn’t want to call Moses Hole my home airport.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 1:02 am
by zakuivcustom
gunsontheroof wrote:
As for the main subject, I look forward to this airport opening in 2075.


It'll still open before BER does, though. :duck:

For the article - seriously, they're comparing Moses Lake to NRT? They realized that NRT is only ~40mi away from central Tokyo, right? BLI is a lot closer, and there's even Olympia Airport to the south that's closer.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 1:15 am
by gunsontheroof
zakuivcustom wrote:
gunsontheroof wrote:
As for the main subject, I look forward to this airport opening in 2075.
BLI is a lot closer, and there's even Olympia Airport to the south that's closer.


OLM really needs to be looked at for regional service. A terminal similar to what we've got up at PAE now would be very popular and OLM would serve a sizeable portion of SEA's catchment area. I'd like to think that BLI could be a source of additional SEA relief, but at least one route I imagined would be viable (DL on BLI-SLC) didn't last long, so I'm not sure that it's the airport to look to.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 1:25 am
by BA
They should build a floating airport on Lake Washington, between the two floating bridges. :duck:

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 1:35 am
by WeatherPilot
Could probably do a terminal on the east side of McChord for the LCCs. Kind of like how Destin-Fort Walton (VPS) is setup. Away from all the military but still able to have commercial operations.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 1:40 am
by PlanesNTrains
What about Vashon Island:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1405251

:-)

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 1:54 am
by anrec80
What do they need it for? What’s up with the current SEA?

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 1:54 am
by WeatherPilot
PlanesNTrains wrote:
What about Vashon Island:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1405251

:-)


I remember that thread. The airport of that size would only be a Bajillion-Fafillion Dollars.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 2:06 am
by AntonioMartin
Fargo wrote:
Good luck with this, where is there land available to build a new airport? Moses Lake is way too far.

Seattle/Tacoma definitely needs a new greenfield airport, but I don't think it can be done in a location that is convenient to downtown.

Exactly what i thought! Im no Seattle expert, having been in there only about 10 hours, but what I observed leads me to think there is no space around the area, at least near SEA?TAC and downtown...

Maybe north of that? Or, maybe expand Boeing Field as far as airline service by making every airline using SEATAC move there instead? (that sounds 2 complicated)...

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 2:16 am
by PlanesNTrains
WeatherPilot wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
What about Vashon Island:

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1405251

:-)


I remember that thread. The airport of that size would only be a Bajillion-Fafillion Dollars.


True lol. But the discussion in that thread ultimately covered the same litany of options that I’m sure we’ll once again discuss again here. :-)

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 2:17 am
by ssteve
The stupid, it hurts.

Because airport operations are moderately difficult, let's build HSR to the desert. Not other airports like PDX and YVR.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 2:24 am
by 32andBelow
Alaska could free up so much space by routing the ANC based connecting pax through Portland.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 2:33 am
by Utah744
BA wrote:
They should build a floating airport on Lake Washington, between the two floating bridges. :duck:

I think the shot fired was from Bill Gates.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 2:42 am
by KLMatSJC
On an off (but not totally) topic, how are the loads at PAE so far?

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 3:03 am
by stl07
This is a joke. If you are going to build a bullet train, build one to PDX or Bellingham, expand the airports there, and call it a day.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 3:15 am
by sonicruiser
speedbird52 wrote:
I would genuinely rather go to San Fransisco and connect


I thought this was a joke until I looked up Moses Lake in Google maps relative to Seattle.

He's not joking. After looking it up, I actually agree and would do the same.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 3:18 am
by speedbird52
I love how they present Moses Lake as having five runways when three of those five runways can't be used by anything larger than a Beechcraft

Edit: I only see three runways

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 3:20 am
by speedbird52
Something no one has addressed is how this would absolutely decimate air cargo in Seattle

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 3:34 am
by gunsontheroof
AntonioMartin wrote:
Fargo wrote:
Or, maybe expand Boeing Field as far as airline service by making every airline using SEATAC move there instead? (that sounds 2 complicated)...


Please look at a satellite image of Boeing Field and explain how that works.

speedbird52 wrote:
Something no one has addressed is how this would absolutely decimate air cargo in Seattle


How? Seattle air cargo is already split between two airports. What would a third do to negatively affect the market?

It should probably be noted that what we're talking about here is not a replacement for SEA--it's not going anywhere. What we're talking about it a supplemental airport that can offer more capacity than PAE or any of the other plausible reliever airports in the region. It will be interesting to see what the proposals are because I can't think of a single viable location in the Seattle-Tacoma metro area that makes sense and certainly nothing that isn't going to cause a NIMBY insurrection.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 3:37 am
by Tailwinds
gunsontheroof wrote:
In addition to these expansion plans, I have to wonder if it would be possible to build a fourth runway over the current taxiway T to add capacity. There would certainly be spacing issues to deal with on the ATC side, but I have to wonder if that would be a viable option when additional terminals/gates are built.


It would not be viable as it doesn't resolve any of the constraints on the existing runways. Having enough pavement isn't a problem, it's where that pavement is located that's the problem.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 4:25 am
by speedbird52
gunsontheroof wrote:
AntonioMartin wrote:
Fargo wrote:
Or, maybe expand Boeing Field as far as airline service by making every airline using SEATAC move there instead? (that sounds 2 complicated)...


Please look at a satellite image of Boeing Field and explain how that works.

speedbird52 wrote:
Something no one has addressed is how this would absolutely decimate air cargo in Seattle


How? Seattle air cargo is already split between two airports. What would a third do to negatively affect the market?

It should probably be noted that what we're talking about here is not a replacement for SEA--it's not going anywhere. What we're talking about it a supplemental airport that can offer more capacity than PAE or any of the other plausible reliever airports in the region. It will be interesting to see what the proposals are because I can't think of a single viable location in the Seattle-Tacoma metro area that makes sense and certainly nothing that isn't going to cause a NIMBY insurrection.

I think Antonio meant Paine Field. Ahh okay, I thought this new airport was supposed to be a replacement. Air Cargo would have been negatively effected because of the crazy long supply line. Could we possibly get an LCC terminal built near i5 at BFI for Southwest, Spirit, or any other O/D traffic carriers? There appear to be some garages next to the AA 727 on Google Earth that could be demolished. This might be outlandish but what about Whidbey Island?

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 4:34 am
by speedbird52
zakuivcustom wrote:
gunsontheroof wrote:
As for the main subject, I look forward to this airport opening in 2075.


It'll still open before BER does, though. :duck:

For the article - seriously, they're comparing Moses Lake to NRT? They realized that NRT is only ~40mi away from central Tokyo, right? BLI is a lot closer, and there's even Olympia Airport to the south that's closer.

Olympia is actually a wonderful idea

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 4:39 am
by PlanesNTrains
32andBelow wrote:
Alaska could free up so much space by routing the ANC based connecting pax through Portland.


Delta could free up so much space by building their connecting hub in Portland.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 4:44 am
by speedbird52
PlanesNTrains wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
Alaska could free up so much space by routing the ANC based connecting pax through Portland.


Delta could free up so much space by building their connecting hub in Portland.

Anyways, Portland is even smaller than KSEA. Looking at Mchord, you realize there is also a lot of potential there, but it would involve demolishing a lot of very upper middle class looking homes. Something tells me the Karens who live there won't be too pleased.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 4:54 am
by jetmechanicdave
speedbird52 wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
gunsontheroof wrote:
As for the main subject, I look forward to this airport opening in 2075.


It'll still open before BER does, though. :duck:

For the article - seriously, they're comparing Moses Lake to NRT? They realized that NRT is only ~40mi away from central Tokyo, right? BLI is a lot closer, and there's even Olympia Airport to the south that's closer.

Olympia is actually a wonderful idea


Yep Olympia Regional Airport would be the next good location. I’ll agree with you there.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 4:55 am
by Airlinerdude
gunsontheroof wrote:
zakuivcustom wrote:
gunsontheroof wrote:
As for the main subject, I look forward to this airport opening in 2075.
BLI is a lot closer, and there's even Olympia Airport to the south that's closer.


OLM really needs to be looked at for regional service. A terminal similar to what we've got up at PAE now would be very popular and OLM would serve a sizeable portion of SEA's catchment area. I'd like to think that BLI could be a source of additional SEA relief, but at least one route I imagined would be viable (DL on BLI-SLC) didn't last long, so I'm not sure that it's the airport to look to.


I was thinking that exact same thing. OLM is an obvious choice to relieve some of the catchment area. The runway could easily be expanded another 1,000ft, and a small terminal on the southeast corner of the field could be built.

Another longterm solution that could be converting McChord to civilian use. It has ample room around its present location to expand.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 4:58 am
by gunsontheroof
speedbird52 wrote:
gunsontheroof wrote:
AntonioMartin wrote:


Please look at a satellite image of Boeing Field and explain how that works.

speedbird52 wrote:
Could we possibly get an LCC terminal built near i5 at BFI for Southwest, Spirit, or any other O/D traffic carriers? There appear to be some garages next to the AA 727 on Google Earth that could be demolished


There's definitely space for a small terminal at BFI. When WN wanted to move their ops there over a decade ago, they even put out some renderings of it (which I can't find for the life of me anywhere). The plans were scuttled when the city nixed the idea after AS announced that they would also build a terminal to compete with WN at BFI. Commercial service there runs into a couple problems, the main one (I think) is freeway access. The on/off ramps at either end of the airport (Michigan St and Albro St respectively) aren't particularly setup for the high volume of traffic that would be coming in and out of the airport with the operation that WN alone was proposing (let alone WN+AS) and traffic on I-5 would become even more of a mess in that area than it already is. There's also very little room for suitable parking accommodations, rental car facilities, etc. The other problem is the proximity of SEA. SEA ops have an effect on BFI and vice-versa--throwing fifty commercial flights a day into the mix at BFI could adversely affect traffic flow at SEA, and of course, the whole idea (ideally) is to ease congestion there. In any case, the city of Seattle made it pretty clear that they're not wild about increasing commercial ops at BFI, so I think any proposal to that end is DOA. Increasing cargo ops there might not be a bad idea, but I'm not sure how much room there is to increase capacity in a significant way.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 5:01 am
by YYZORD
Why not make YVR basically Seattle's alternative airport when travelling international when the bullet trains come. Leave SEA for domestic US flights mostly kinda like HND before 2010 and then let YVR handle both Seattle and Vancouver's international pax outside Canada and USA. This frees up capacity at SEA and who with an American passport can't travel to Canada if they want to fly international?

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 5:06 am
by YYZORD
Another option could be Wabash, WA near Enumclaw, WA. There is so much flat farmland there big enough for a major international airport while being in the Seattle area.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 5:37 am
by steveinbc
Temporarily they need to initiate pricing that dissuades flights that are geographically close or where high frequencies can be reduced in part by larger aircraft. Seattle is unable to expand due to highways, mountains and oceans So the choice of an alternate is not easy and likely decades in the making. Maybe a domestic and international airport SEA and Paine Field respectively. It would need a "bullet train" to connect the two top avoid the dreadful I5 mess.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 6:35 am
by NWNightfly
"We've been looking at it from a time standpoint, not necessarily a distance standpoint," Bishop said. "If you can get from Moses Lake to Seattle within an hour, then I certainly think from an international model, that fits in those parameters."

Sounds like a deal, if you can do that first part. Now, the trick is building a ("bullet?") train line capable of an average speed of 180 M.P.H.

Over the Cascade mountain passes.

:roll:

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 7:05 am
by speedbird52
YYZORD wrote:
Why not make YVR basically Seattle's alternative airport when travelling international when the bullet trains come. Leave SEA for domestic US flights mostly kinda like HND before 2010 and then let YVR handle both Seattle and Vancouver's international pax outside Canada and USA. This frees up capacity at SEA and who with an American passport can't travel to Canada if they want to fly international?

Vancouver is very far away for most people. Additionally, lines at the border can last up to a whole hour.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 7:06 am
by speedbird52
NWNightfly wrote:
"We've been looking at it from a time standpoint, not necessarily a distance standpoint," Bishop said. "If you can get from Moses Lake to Seattle within an hour, then I certainly think from an international model, that fits in those parameters."

Sounds like a deal, if you can do that first part. Now, the trick is building a ("bullet?") train line capable of an average speed of 180 M.P.H.

Over the Cascade mountain passes.

:roll:

No way anyone would throw money on that for Moses Lake.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 7:45 am
by rwsea
The discussion of whether to build a third runway at SEA (at the tune of $1B) vs. building a new/second regional airport was settled in the 90s. No new airport will be built anywhere near the Puget Sound metro area in our life times. But that doesn't mean there aren't other options that could, together, address the same issue, costing less than the $20-25B it would surely cost to build such a new airport and related infrastructure. Such options could include:
- bringing back regional service at Olympia
- expanding PAE
- expanding/adding service at BLI
- routing connecting traffic (such as Alaska to Lower 48) through PDX or another less congested hub, focusing instead on O&D
- improving HSR connections to Portland & Vancouver

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 10:23 am
by Passedv1
Or how about, utilize all 3 runways at SEA effectively. SEA has got to be the most ineffectively used 3 runway airport's in the country. I have been vectored north of PAE, driven 20+ miles out to be the #5 airplane for 16R only to fly all the way back to the airport with not a single departure/arrival off of 16L or 16C.

I have been told it's the NIMBY's and part of the plan to spread the noise out. I have been told the FAA needs to staff more radar positions to allow simultaneous wing tip to wing tip arrivals.

They should have two departure streams, one on B using the inboard and the other on T using the Center. Realign the departures if you must. Right now everybody goes straight out for 5 miles before making any turns, get everybody turning sooner.

I don't know what the deal is, but as I fly around the country, SEA does not seem like that busy an airport compared to how much pavement they have. They need to more efficiently move traffic before they start shelling out Billions on an airport they really don't need.

Developing PAE and OLM to handle more capacity I think is a great alternative if you insist that nothing can be done with SEA. Building a freeway down the east side of McChord to skip the Fife curves along with building a terminal and lengthening a runway at OLM would be way cheaper than a whole new airport.

If the new capacity must be between Seattle and Tacoma, then Boeing Field is the obvious choice. Instead of building a bullet train to Moses Lake, you could build a light rail station at a newly built terminal at BFI. That way you could transit between the SEA and BFI terminals. You could even build it in such a way to avoid going out of security.

Moses Lake, wow. It took me 10 minutes to stop laughing. It is 177 miles from downtown Seattle to Moses Lake. It is only 170 miles to PDX from downtown Seattle. And PDX is already a commercial airport, and you can get there reliably in the winter without going over mountain passes. Bullet train to Moses Lake with brand new terminal facilities, rental car facilities, fuel farm, fire station, ATC, etc....is just the kind of wasteful government program that just might happen.

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 10:38 am
by Passedv1
One last option...since 16L and 16R are too close together for parallel approaches, why don't we give up on the current SEA configuration and build a new terminal down the middle where 16C and T presently are. They can be modern parallel terminal design like DEN or ATL. Once the terminal is built you could destroy the existing terminal along International BLVD and build a new runway. You would then have two approach streams in all WX and one dedicated departure runway. If you really wanted to, you could build another runway west of the current 16R and you would basically have 2 all weather arrival streams and two departure streams.

I dont think it's any crazier than a bullet train to Moses Lake!

Re: New Greater Seattle Airport

Posted: Sun May 19, 2019 10:39 am
by speedbird52
Passedv1 wrote:

Moses Lake, wow. It took me 10 minutes to stop laughing. It is 177 miles from downtown Seattle to Moses Lake. It is only 170 miles to PDX from downtown Seattle. And PDX is already a commercial airport, and you can get there reliably in the winter without going over mountain passes. Bullet train to Moses Lake with brand new terminal facilities, rental car facilities, fuel farm, fire station, ATC, etc....is just the kind of wasteful government program that just might happen.

Idk man looking at how much money we were willing to spend on ST3 (And if State Senator Marylin Chase was telling the truth when I talked to her a lot of this cost was inflated because of nonsensical decisions such as making the train sets use a type of motor that is basically unique to the network?) I wouldn't put it past our government to do it. If we are lucky my great grandchildren will get to fly the inaugural.