User avatar
UPlog
Posts: 346
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2018 5:45 am

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 12:14 am

zkncj wrote:
janders wrote:
NZ has operated an mix of GE/RR before e.g. half the 744s were GE and the other half RR.

Also the 77W are GE, with the 77E are RR.


All those were do their own special circumstances, unlike today clearly walking away from RR.

744s were mixed due picking up secondary frames with different pedigree, while 77W is exclusive with GE.
 
wangjm777
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 4:37 am

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 12:23 am

Airlines0613 wrote:
OA940 wrote:
I never expected to see the words ''long range'' and ''787-10'' in the same sentence :P

Jokes aside, it'll be interesting to see how much they extend its range by. It should also help compete with the A350-900 more and could potentially attract more customers. But the question is what will they use for the hypothetical NYC flight.

In the article, they stated they would like to fly their newly ordered aircraft on the hypothetical AKL-NYC flight. Meaning, they want to place the Boeing 78J on the route, but it needs quite a bit of a range boost.


I guess NZ and Boeing already figured out the final specs of the 787-10ER. The remaining question is when do they officially announce it.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 6881
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 1:08 am

Airlines0613 wrote:
OA940 wrote:
I never expected to see the words ''long range'' and ''787-10'' in the same sentence :P

Jokes aside, it'll be interesting to see how much they extend its range by. It should also help compete with the A350-900 more and could potentially attract more customers. But the question is what will they use for the hypothetical NYC flight.

In the article, they stated they would like to fly their newly ordered aircraft on the hypothetical AKL-NYC flight. Meaning, they want to place the Boeing 78J on the route, but it needs quite a bit of a range boost.


Reconfigured 789s for ULH like NYC/GRU, it depends how you read it or what you no but the 78J won’t be doing flights anywhere near that long.

Long term I’d say it’s pretty clear they plan to use the 78J to replace the 77W, so they should be good for LAX/SFO-AKL.
 
Airlines0613
Posts: 142
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:06 am

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 2:29 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
Airlines0613 wrote:
OA940 wrote:
I never expected to see the words ''long range'' and ''787-10'' in the same sentence :P

Jokes aside, it'll be interesting to see how much they extend its range by. It should also help compete with the A350-900 more and could potentially attract more customers. But the question is what will they use for the hypothetical NYC flight.

In the article, they stated they would like to fly their newly ordered aircraft on the hypothetical AKL-NYC flight. Meaning, they want to place the Boeing 78J on the route, but it needs quite a bit of a range boost.


Reconfigured 789s for ULH like NYC/GRU, it depends how you read it or what you no but the 78J won’t be doing flights anywhere near that long.

Long term I’d say it’s pretty clear they plan to use the 78J to replace the 77W, so they should be good for LAX/SFO-AKL.

There are no new 789 orders nor options. There are only 8 ordered and 12 as options which all consist of Boeing 78J, with conversions to 789. As of now, all are 78J, which begs to question weather the ‘longer range’ variant offered to them will be significantly better.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 6881
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 2:36 am

Airlines0613 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
Airlines0613 wrote:
In the article, they stated they would like to fly their newly ordered aircraft on the hypothetical AKL-NYC flight. Meaning, they want to place the Boeing 78J on the route, but it needs quite a bit of a range boost.


Reconfigured 789s for ULH like NYC/GRU, it depends how you read it or what you no but the 78J won’t be doing flights anywhere near that long.

Long term I’d say it’s pretty clear they plan to use the 78J to replace the 77W, so they should be good for LAX/SFO-AKL.

There are no new 789 orders nor options. There are only 8 ordered and 12 as options which all consist of Boeing 78J, with conversions to 789. As of now, all are 78J, which begs to question weather the ‘longer range’ variant offered to them will be significantly better.


Existing 789s will be reconfigured and may be able to have more PIPs added.
 
filipinoavgeek
Posts: 215
Joined: Mon Mar 04, 2019 1:18 am

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 2:38 am

You know, I kind of find it interesting that, this being a Boeing order thread, that there has only been one "congratulations Boeing" post all thread. Somehow I have the feeling that if this NZ ordered Airbus planes instead, there would be more "congrats" posts. I could be wrong of course: it could be simply that the order was just a few hours ago and others who would post congratulations haven't done so yet, but still.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 17684
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 2:38 am

Other thread, locked, discussing the selection of GE engines:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1423399

The engine switch is a big deal.
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
TaniTaniwha
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:04 am

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 2:40 am

filipinoavgeek wrote:
You know, I kind of find it interesting that, this being a Boeing order thread, that there has only been one "congratulations Boeing" post all thread. Somehow I have the feeling that if this NZ ordered Airbus planes instead, there would be more "congrats" posts. I could be wrong of course: it could be simply that the order was just a few hours ago and others who would post congratulations haven't done so yet, but still.

Congratulations Boeing - I believe the correct choice.
[photoid][/photoid][photoid][/photoid]
 
a19901213
Posts: 137
Joined: Sat Feb 23, 2013 10:38 am

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 2:48 am

787 can handle pretty much everywhere they want to fly for the time being.

789 should have the ability to take them to NYC, given the correct cabin configuration.
 
User avatar
VirginFlyer
Posts: 5228
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 3:53 am

This conversation got stranded in the other thread.

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
VirginFlyer wrote:
Another thing to consider here: the 787-9 is crewed by staff on the mid-haul contract, compared to the 777-200ER/-300ER on the long-haul contract. I would expect they would want to keep the 787-10 on the mid-haul contract too, which means a sizeable chunk of flying moving from one group to another. It will be interesting to see how this plays out with the staff.


what is the difference in the contracts? Is it a leftover from when they flew 767s?

Yes that is my understanding - basically less generous pay and conditions than the long-haul contracts, based on 777 flight and cabin crew whom I’ve spoken with.


LAX772LR wrote:
Though they better be glad that Boeing's original proposal for a common pylon/software allowing an engine OEM swap in less than 24hr... didn't pan out.


Did enough of it survive to make re-engining from one to the other possible, even if not in the original timeframe? If so, I wonder whether GE is going to try to go after and engine replacement for the 14 789s?

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
PlanesNTrains
Posts: 9527
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 4:18 am

wangjm777 wrote:
This could be the end of the A350 program. The ER version of 787-10 has a range of about 7600 nmi but burns at least 10% less than A350-900. Really impressive.


Uh, no. Not only is the A350 doing very well, but it has room to grow and improve as well. The aircraft program that is in doubt longer term is the 777X, not the A350.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
Naincompetent
Posts: 25
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2018 7:20 am

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 4:19 am

It seems indeed to be the - 9 for NYC
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ht-458475/
 
wangjm777
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 4:37 am

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 4:31 am

MrHMSH wrote:
wangjm777 wrote:
Airlines0613 wrote:
In the article, they stated they would like to fly their newly ordered aircraft on the hypothetical AKL-NYC flight. Meaning, they want to place the Boeing 78J on the route, but it needs quite a bit of a range boost.


This could be the end of the A350 program. The ER version of 787-10 has a range of about 7600 nmi but burns at least 10% less than A350-900. Really impressive.


What 787-10ER? No such plane has been announced

Where did you hear that the 78X has a range of 7600nm? Where did you hear that the 78X burns 10% less fuel than the A359? According to Boeing's own website, the 78X has a range of 6430nm, where has the extra 1170nm of range come from, and how has it come with zero efficiency hit? Big questions.


Right it has not been announced yet. NZ says it intends to replace 77E with 787-10. 7600 nmi is about the range of 77E, and it’s also the great circle distance of JFK-AKL. There was rumors (discussed in this forum) that Boeing to offer MTOW-increased 787-10. So I expect this NZ order is for the higher MTOW version of 787-10, with 7600 nmi range.

IIRC the 787 fuel burn is 5.4t and the A350 is a little over 6.0t. That is about 10% advantage.
 
wangjm777
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 4:37 am

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 4:33 am

jbs2886 wrote:
wangjm777 wrote:
Airlines0613 wrote:
In the article, they stated they would like to fly their newly ordered aircraft on the hypothetical AKL-NYC flight. Meaning, they want to place the Boeing 78J on the route, but it needs quite a bit of a range boost.


This could be the end of the A350 program. The ER version of 787-10 has a range of about 7600 nmi but burns at least 10% less than A350-900. Really impressive.


That's a big dramatic, no? End of the A350 program? Even if the facts are true (they don't appear to be), (1) Airbus would update the A350 and (2) Boeing simply doesn't have the capacity to completely control the market.


It’s like A330-300 vs. 77E. When the IGW A330-300’s range approached 77E’s, the lighter, more efficient A333 effectively killed the heavier 77E.
 
TaniTaniwha
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Apr 16, 2011 12:04 am

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 4:35 am

VirginFlyer wrote:

Did enough of it survive to make re-engining from one to the other possible, even if not in the original timeframe? If so, I wonder whether GE is going to try to go after and engine replacement for the 14 789s?

V/F


From Luxton "He adds, however, that the carrier is still pleased with its Trent-powered aircraft, and it plans to operate both engine types side-by-side for the foreseeable future."

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ht-458475/
[photoid][/photoid][photoid][/photoid]
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13805
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 4:38 am

Naincompetent wrote:
It seems indeed to be the - 9 for NYC
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ht-458475/


I had assumed earlier in the thread this would go to the 787-8/9/10. The 787-10 is a logical choice for NZ to replace the 77E, it will comfortably do every route their current 77E does.

It made no sense to me for them to go to the 359 just for 8 frames, far more fleet efficiency can be achieved by reducing the number of types.

789 I think is more suited to AKL-JFK for the loads they expect instead of a 778. I didn’t think the 778 was in the running here.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
ericm2031
Posts: 1053
Joined: Tue Jun 19, 2012 8:46 am

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 4:42 am

The 5 year timeline seems a little lengthy to receive these 8 aircraft. A great win for Boeing and a little surprise on the order mix (or lack thereof).

Will be interesting to see what they replace the -300ER's with...although with the options being taken (and maybe existing ones), I'm thinking these will also be covered with 787's instead of 77X's. This order probably just made Project Sunrise even more isolated to 1 carrier than before.
 
SA744
Posts: 202
Joined: Wed Nov 30, 2005 4:13 pm

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 4:54 am

I wish they would do JNB now
 
DavidByrne
Posts: 1375
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:42 pm

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 4:58 am

SA744 wrote:
I wish they would do JNB now

Not mentioned even as a possibility by the carrier for many years now. Right now they're signalling EWR and GRU (no surprises with either of these) but now also YYZ is being considered (have not heard mention of that by the carrier until today).
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
 
User avatar
ikolkyo
Posts: 2613
Joined: Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:43 pm

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 5:00 am

That FG article also confirms their intent to get GE powered 789s down the road. I believe the GEnx does have the edge on the Trent when it comes to ULH.
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2450
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 5:28 am

wangjm777 wrote:

Right it has not been announced yet. NZ says it intends to replace 77E with 787-10. 7600 nmi is about the range of 77E, and it’s also the great circle distance of JFK-AKL. There was rumors (discussed in this forum) that Boeing to offer MTOW-increased 787-10. So I expect this NZ order is for the higher MTOW version of 787-10, with 7600 nmi range.

IIRC the 787 fuel burn is 5.4t and the A350 is a little over 6.0t. That is about 10% advantage.


The 77E doesn’t fly to JFK from AKL, at present nothing does. I think you underestimate how much it would take to make the 78X capable of reaching JFK with an economically viable payload. There were indeed rumours of an increased MTOW, it from 6430nmi to 7600nmi? No chance. That would mean nearly no market for the A359 or 789, whereas in reality both have sold in huge numbers.

The 5.4T figure is almost certainly for the 789, the 78X figure will be higher. A list of fuel burn/hour from a couple of years ago on an A.net thread gives 5.6T for the 789 and 5.8T for the A359. Either way, 10% is far too optimistic a figure, and I’m sure it’s been discussed that the A359 closes that gap on the longest flights even against the 789.
 
zkncj
Posts: 3198
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 5:47 am

ericm2031 wrote:
The 5 year timeline seems a little lengthy to receive these 8 aircraft. A great win for Boeing and a little surprise on the order mix (or lack thereof).


Its pretty normal for NZ to announce there purchased outright options like this so far-out, then additional frames that are leased close to the time (subject to market conditions).

Example being the A320CEO replacement programming going at the moment for the older CEO's they order and announced 13x 321/320NEOs, then closer to the time they have slipped 7x a321NEOs that are leased into the mix.
 
gloom
Posts: 296
Joined: Thu Jun 30, 2016 4:24 pm

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 6:33 am

wangjm777 wrote:
IIRC the 787 fuel burn is 5.4t and the A350 is a little over 6.0t. That is about 10% advantage.


You still need to learn, my young padawan. Check https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1406387 this link and come back once you've learned.

Cheers,
Adam
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 7:01 am

I think people are confused regarding the 787-10ER. There is no way the 787-10 will fly 7600nm with passengers. Someone was probably misquoted where they used the 787-9 range during a discussion.

I expect a small paper MTOW bump to the 787-9 to do the New York route. As the stronger 787-10 wing has been fitted to the lighter 787-9 it should allow the 787-9 in theory to have a higher MTOW than the 787-10.

It looks like the 787 will soon be the only widebody in the ANZ fleet. The standard 787-10 can do 75% of the current routes. So the 787-9 will simply do the longer flights.
 
wangjm777
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 4:37 am

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 7:19 am

MrHMSH wrote:

The 77E doesn’t fly to JFK from AKL, at present nothing does. I think you underestimate how much it would take to make the 78X capable of reaching JFK with an economically viable payload. There were indeed rumours of an increased MTOW, it from 6430nmi to 7600nmi? No chance. That would mean nearly no market for the A359 or 789, whereas in reality both have sold in huge numbers.


Both 789 and 359 have sold well doesn’t mean they will be once the 787 higher MTOW variant is announced.

I am not sure exactly how much more MTOW is needed to make 787-10 to match the range of 77E. But my educated guess is about 10t? Doesn’t seem to be impossible. 254t + 10t is still way lighter than the competition (280t).

The same improvement can also be back ported to 787-9, making it a 9000 nmi range beast!

This would certainly kill the current generation of A350-900.
Last edited by wangjm777 on Mon May 27, 2019 7:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13805
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 7:19 am

wangjm777 wrote:
It’s like A330-300 vs. 77E. When the IGW A330-300’s range approached 77E’s, the lighter, more efficient A333 effectively killed the heavier 77E.


Not a valid analogy at all, the A333 was only competitive against the 77E over medium haul. A small sub fleet of A359 does not make sense for an airline already operating a small fleet of 787s, it makes a lot more sense to get a single larger fleet than operate two smaller fleets. I fully expect NZ in 10 years or so to get rid of their 77Ws and replace them also with 787s. It just does not have the need for that sort of capacity. Everywhere it basically operates the 77W with they can increase frequency with at a later stage. Along with that they get all the crew on the same cheaper contract.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13805
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 7:28 am

wangjm777 wrote:
I am not sure exactly how much more MTOW is needed to make 787-10 to match the range of 77E. But my educated guess is about 10t? Doesn’t seem to be impossible. 254t + 10t is still way lighter than the competition (280t).


Sure just change the wing body join, modify the wing for triple bogey gear, new nose gear, and throw an extra 10 klb of thrust on each wing. Simple, cheap stuff really, should be ready next week, delivery by Christmas (year not specified).

When looking at carrying the same payload over the same distance, the 787 maybe at MTOW, doesn’t mean the A350 is, if it’s the same distance at MTOW the A350 would be lifting more payload, if it’s the same payload, at MTOW the A350 will be going a lot further.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2450
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 7:31 am

wangjm777 wrote:

Both 789 and 359 have sold well doesn’t mean they will be once the 787 higher MTOW variant is announced.

I am not sure exactly how much more MTOW is needed to make 787-10 to match the range of 77E. But my educated guess is about 10t? Doesn’t seem to be impossible. 254t + 10t is still way lighter than the competition (280t).

The same improvement can also be back ported to 787-9, making it a 9000 nmi range beast!

This would certainly kill the current generation of A350-900.


Lighter doesn't necessarily mean more economic though, if you read through the thread provided above regarding 788 vs A359 range/fuel burn comparisons, you'll see it's a lot closer than you think. A 78X may well be pretty close to the A359 as it is with regard to fuel burn, adding more weight eats into its current advantage. I think 10T of weight to add 1130nmi of range is on the optimistic side, even if I can't confirm myself.

Others will have to confirm, but I thought the 787 would require a few changes in order to have an increased MTOW (landing gear limit?), and so far we've had no solid information that this is forthcoming. If that is the case, then weight has to be added.
 
User avatar
keesje
Posts: 13025
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 7:34 am

Just more 787's / converting rights was what everyone expected I guess.

They got 13 since 2014, orderd in 2004.

Image
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fO69Xw4jjK4

No doubt the -10s will mainly be used for higher capacity Asian flights.

A logical choice for ANZ it seems!
Last edited by keesje on Mon May 27, 2019 7:43 am, edited 2 times in total.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
wangjm777
Posts: 17
Joined: Thu May 16, 2019 4:37 am

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 7:35 am

zeke wrote:

Sure just change the wing body join, modify the wing for triple bogey gear, new nose gear, and throw an extra 10 klb of thrust on each wing. Simple, cheap stuff really, should be ready next week, delivery by Christmas (year not specified).


Surely it won’t be a paper MTOW increase. But 10t is much, much less than the increase of 77E vs 772, 77L vs. 77E, latest A333 vs original 333. The list goes on.

Isn’t it normal that both B and A are continuously improving their aircrafts?
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2450
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 7:47 am

wangjm777 wrote:
zeke wrote:

Sure just change the wing body join, modify the wing for triple bogey gear, new nose gear, and throw an extra 10 klb of thrust on each wing. Simple, cheap stuff really, should be ready next week, delivery by Christmas (year not specified).


Surely it won’t be a paper MTOW increase. But 10t is much, much less than the increase of 77E vs 772, 77L vs. 77E, latest A333 vs original 333. The list goes on.

Isn’t it normal that both B and A are continuously improving their aircrafts?


In the A333's case, a lot of the structure and fuel capacity for larger MTOWs was already there, as the A330 shared its structure with the 275T A343. I can't speak for for the 777, but I'm quite certain they'd have added weight in order to get the extra capability. I'm sure Boeing could make a 787-10ER, but it would need to make changes that increase its fuel consumption and thus competitiveness. Given how drastic the increase is (1130nmi) and that the 787 as it is is not too far from its limit without significant changes, I'd wager that it's not on the table yet. It's quite possible that there's an error in the reporting, as everyone who's qualified has already said AKL-JFK is hugely optimistic for a 78X.

7600nmi with a 10% fuel burn over the A359? Not even remotely close, not even the 789 manages that.
 
MileHFL400
Posts: 642
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:42 am

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 7:52 am

I’m glad the -10 is picking up a few orders here and there. A very nice looking aircraft. My count is 9 on the number of current/ future operators.

- SQ
- KLM
- ANA
- ANZ
- Vietnam
- BA
- UA
- EY
- Saudia
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
marcelh
Posts: 641
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 7:53 am

wangjm777 wrote:
zeke wrote:

Sure just change the wing body join, modify the wing for triple bogey gear, new nose gear, and throw an extra 10 klb of thrust on each wing. Simple, cheap stuff really, should be ready next week, delivery by Christmas (year not specified).


Surely it won’t be a paper MTOW increase. But 10t is much, much less than the increase of 77E vs 772, 77L vs. 77E, latest A333 vs original 333. The list goes on.

Isn’t it normal that both B and A are continuously improving their aircrafts?

Improving an existing model is something else than effectively design an updated plane using some parts of an existing model. Not impossible (A330neo, B777X), but it comes with a price.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13805
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 7:55 am

wangjm777 wrote:

Isn’t it normal that both B and A are continuously improving their aircrafts?


If Boeing could have improved the 787-10 MTOW based upon 787-9 in service data, they would have presented that at EIS to stop the loosing the large orders like EK. The 787-10 already has very very high pavement loading

Image

MrHMSH wrote:

7600nmi with a 10% fuel burn over the A359? Not even remotely close, not even the 789 manages that.


Actually based upon FCOM data for carrying the same payload at the longer ranges the A359 burns less fuel compared to the 787-9. At shorter ranges the 787-9 burnt a little less. Average difference is less than 1%.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
stasisLAX
Posts: 2944
Joined: Mon Jul 09, 2007 9:04 am

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 8:00 am

If Reuters is to be believed, NZ hss chosen GE jet engines over Rolls-Royce.
"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety!" B.Franklin
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 6881
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 8:13 am

stasisLAX wrote:
If Reuters is to be believed, NZ hss chosen GE jet engines over Rolls-Royce.


Your a little behind. Confirmed.
 
RJMAZ
Posts: 1522
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2016 2:54 am

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 8:16 am

A few things worth mentioning.

The landing gear limits the landing weight. The greatest force is when landing.

The wingbox and wing limits the MTOW. The wings lifts up and the fuselage down.

The 787-9 does not then require a stronger landing gear for a small MTOW increase. The 787-10 already has a max landing weight 11T heavier than the 787-9.

Pavement loading of the 787-9 is also well below the 77W so a small paper MTOW increase on the 787-9 makes sense providing it is for fuel only.

An increase in MTOW for the 787-9 would require more thrust, lucky the 787-10 has engines rated with 5,000lb of extra thrust.

A 787-9 with a 260T MTOW and zero increase in empty weight would see a big increase in sales. The A350-900 at 280T currently has a significant advantage on ultra long haul flights or with heavy payloads. Both the A350-900 and 787-9 has advantages and disadvantages. I would say the A350 is the superior aircraft one versus one as the best all rounder. This MTOW increase would make the 787-9 have more advantages than disadvantages, making the 787-9 the better all rounder.

The reason the 787-9 has been selling so well against the superior A350-900 is because of the family flexibility of the smaller 787-8 and efficient 787-10. But making the 787-9 beat the A350-900 should see the 787 family dominate sales 2 to 1 against the A350 family.
 
User avatar
LaunchDetected
Posts: 235
Joined: Fri Jul 13, 2012 4:42 pm

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 8:36 am

The A350 lover that i am is a little bit sad but 78J is the most coherent choice.

The biggest information is on the engine-side
Caravelle lover
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13805
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 8:50 am

RJMAZ wrote:
The landing gear limits the landing weight. The greatest force is when landing.


Gear has to be able to withstand rejected takeoff and an immediate return to land after takeoff at MTOW.

RJMAZ wrote:
The wingbox and wing limits the MTOW. The wings lifts up and the fuselage down.


Nope, fuselage strength does as well. That is how loads are transferred to/from the tail and nose gear.

RJMAZ wrote:
The 787-9 does not then require a stronger landing gear for a small MTOW increase. The 787-10 already has a max landing weight 11T heavier than the 787-9.


Based upon what ? I think you might want to find out what happens on other aircraft.

RJMAZ wrote:
Pavement loading of the 787-9 is also well below the 77W


They are near identical look at the chart above

RJMAZ wrote:
A 787-9 with a 260T MTOW and zero increase in empty weight would see a big increase in sales.


Why didn’t they do it for the outset for EIS ?

Why haven’t they done it already ?
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
User avatar
AECM
Posts: 192
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2007 2:52 am

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 8:50 am

So if the B789 will be the aircraft for Auckland to New York, and if these birds get the rumored 2.5T MTOW increase, what type of seat capacity would Air New Zealand have? Currently they have two type of seat layout in the B789 C18W21Y263 and C27W33Y215
 
User avatar
Velocity7
Posts: 43
Joined: Sat Apr 21, 2018 7:49 am

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 8:57 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
WorldFlier wrote:
FlyHappy wrote:


really, seriously? that's a tiny number, kinda hard to believe. I woulda thought "Flight of the Conchords" would have enticed greater numbers ;)



How much is East Coast- ANZ?

Great connection to significantly reduce travel time.

For example,

XXX-EWR-AKL-BNE versus XXX-EWR-LAX-AKL-BNE

I am sure there are plenty of business travellers willing to pay the premium to fly very far. The same way that PER-LHR works by getting people connecting on both sides of that flight instead of the added distance.


Everything that matters in the U.S. Northeast can already be flown XXX-LAX-BNE.


If NYC is in the mix, I think a routing like BNE-AKL-NYC would be very appealing to many travellers. A short jump over the ditch first and the true long haul on the second sector and arrive at your destination. I find the LAX-NYC sector really challenging after a 13 hour sector - I am over it about the time your fly over Colorado! Project Sunrise may change all that of course.
Wonder how many passengers are connecting from the East Coast of Australia for NZ26 AKL-ORD?
 
zkncj
Posts: 3198
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 9:06 am

AECM wrote:
So if the B789 will be the aircraft for Auckland to New York, and if these birds get the rumored 2.5T MTOW increase, what type of seat capacity would Air New Zealand have? Currently they have two type of seat layout in the B789 C18W21Y263 and C27W33Y215


My thinking is the current code 1 (C18W21Y263) will be replaced by the 787-10s, and code ones will be refitted for the ULH routes e.g C44 W50 Y160.
 
User avatar
Zkpilot
Posts: 4286
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:21 pm

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 9:07 am

AECM wrote:
So if the B789 will be the aircraft for Auckland to New York, and if these birds get the rumored 2.5T MTOW increase, what type of seat capacity would Air New Zealand have? Currently they have two type of seat layout in the B789 C18W21Y263 and C27W33Y215

I would guess something like C36W40Y+36Y134 = total 246 down from 275 saving around 3t between bags, pax, seating etc. 3t gets you about 500km further.
59 types. 41 countries. 24 airlines.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 6881
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 9:20 am

zkncj wrote:
AECM wrote:
So if the B789 will be the aircraft for Auckland to New York, and if these birds get the rumored 2.5T MTOW increase, what type of seat capacity would Air New Zealand have? Currently they have two type of seat layout in the B789 C18W21Y263 and C27W33Y215


My thinking is the current code 1 (C18W21Y263) will be replaced by the 787-10s, and code ones will be refitted for the ULH routes e.g C44 W50 Y160.


Some have said that they need more premium capacity into some Asian destinations currently operated by code 1 frames ie NRT, I’d see the 78J going into HKG/SIN/NRT initially, with similar J and W class to the code 2 and similar Y class to the code 1 789s with Economy comfort also so something along the lines of 27J 33W 36Y+ 227Y or 323 seats total with a configuration like that.

Code 3 789s won’t have that many J I don’t think, I’d add 2 rows over the current code 2 frames and another 2 rows of W so 33J 47W 36Y+ 130Y. Of course I could be way off.

I’m not sure if ultimately they will end up with 2 or 3 789 configurations, the code 1 frames may stay in smaller numbers for certain routes while the code 2 become code 3 aswell?

Of course I could be way off.
 
pabloeing
Posts: 579
Joined: Wed Dec 10, 2014 3:00 pm

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 9:42 am

The B787-10 is the king in the Atlantic and maybe will be a fantastic plane in the pacific too......¿AKL-SFO?...yes...because UA is flying from IAD-PEK....LAX-NRT...etc....
 
User avatar
LAX772LR
Posts: 12311
Joined: Sun Nov 09, 2014 11:06 pm

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 10:14 am

VirginFlyer wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Though they better be glad that Boeing's original proposal for a common pylon/software allowing an engine OEM swap in less than 24hr... didn't pan out.

Did enough of it survive to make re-engining from one to the other possible, even if not in the original timeframe? If so, I wonder whether GE is going to try to go after and engine replacement for the 14 789s?

It's possible in most extant aircraft even of the previous generation, just a total PITA and enormously expensive.

I don't know if enough of the original plans have remained in the 787s to render them any less cost prohibited than previous generations.... though I suspect not much, since we haven't heard that played up at all, especially with all the RR issues over the past two years.



pabloeing wrote:
The B787-10 is the king in the Atlantic

That's a rather lofty claim, for the half-dozen or so segments that it's flying.

Maybe in a decade or so, yes.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 10:39 am

wangjm777 wrote:
This could be the end of the A350 program. The ER version of 787-10 has a range of about 7600 nmi but burns at least 10% less than A350-900. Really impressive.

Are you posting from a coffee shop in Amsterdam? This kind of flamebait silliness degrades any thread in which it appears.
 
Motorhussy
Posts: 3584
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:49 am

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 10:49 am

pabloeing wrote:
The B787-10 is the king in the Atlantic and maybe will be a fantastic plane in the pacific too......¿AKL-SFO?...yes...because UA is flying from IAD-PEK....LAX-NRT...etc....


King of the Atlantic? Only UA, BA and KL fly it of that pond.

Also, when comparing sector lengths routes over the Arctic do not compare as apples to apples with trans-Pacific.
come visit the south pacific
 
Motorhussy
Posts: 3584
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:49 am

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 10:51 am

Bricktop wrote:
wangjm777 wrote:
This could be the end of the A350 program. The ER version of 787-10 has a range of about 7600 nmi but burns at least 10% less than A350-900. Really impressive.

Are you posting from a coffee shop in Amsterdam? This kind of flamebait silliness degrades any thread in which it appears.


He’s changed his name again. I’d blocked his previous two incarnations.
come visit the south pacific
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 11:30 am

pabloeing wrote:
The B787-10 is the king in the Atlantic and maybe will be a fantastic plane in the pacific too......¿AKL-SFO?...yes...because UA is flying from IAD-PEK....LAX-NRT...etc....

Apart from UA, who else is flying the B78X TATL, and they have less than 10 of the type? Right now there are more B752s crossing the pond than that. A case of premature exuberation? ;)

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos