Unclekoru
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 12:00 pm

VirginFlyer wrote:
This conversation got stranded in the other thread.

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
VirginFlyer wrote:
Another thing to consider here: the 787-9 is crewed by staff on the mid-haul contract, compared to the 777-200ER/-300ER on the long-haul contract. I would expect they would want to keep the 787-10 on the mid-haul contract too, which means a sizeable chunk of flying moving from one group to another. It will be interesting to see how this plays out with the staff.


what is the difference in the contracts? Is it a leftover from when they flew 767s?

Yes that is my understanding - basically less generous pay and conditions than the long-haul contracts, based on 777 flight and cabin crew whom I’ve spoken with.

V/F


Mid haul contracts only apply to cabin crew. Pilot conditions are no different between the 777 and the 787, it's the same contract. Pay rates on the other hand are type specific.
It sounds like english, but I can't understand a word you're saying
 
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MoKa777
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 12:02 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
A few things worth mentioning.

The landing gear limits the landing weight. The greatest force is when landing.

The wingbox and wing limits the MTOW. The wings lifts up and the fuselage down.

The 787-9 does not then require a stronger landing gear for a small MTOW increase. The 787-10 already has a max landing weight 11T heavier than the 787-9.

Pavement loading of the 787-9 is also well below the 77W so a small paper MTOW increase on the 787-9 makes sense providing it is for fuel only.

An increase in MTOW for the 787-9 would require more thrust, lucky the 787-10 has engines rated with 5,000lb of extra thrust.

A 787-9 with a 260T MTOW and zero increase in empty weight would see a big increase in sales. The A350-900 at 280T currently has a significant advantage on ultra long haul flights or with heavy payloads. Both the A350-900 and 787-9 has advantages and disadvantages. I would say the A350 is the superior aircraft one versus one as the best all rounder. This MTOW increase would make the 787-9 have more advantages than disadvantages, making the 787-9 the better all rounder.

The reason the 787-9 has been selling so well against the superior A350-900 is because of the family flexibility of the smaller 787-8 and efficient 787-10. But making the 787-9 beat the A350-900 should see the 787 family dominate sales 2 to 1 against the A350 family.


There does not need to be one OR the other - 789 OR A359. They can, do and will continue to co-exist. Both are brilliant aircraft that fulfill their roles exceptionally well. Yes, one will be better than the other depending on the specific mission and airline requirement but overall, both are great.

I don't understand why RJMAZ is so desperate for the 789 to dominate over the A359 and Zeke is often so hell-bent on decrying the abilities or efficiencies of the 789. One being efficient and doing well does not take away from the other. There isn't a finite amount of "efficient" or "capable" in the world. The 789/J and A359 are not inversely proportional to each other's existence. If one does something well, it does not follow or mean that the other MUST be a failure in that regard. They exist on a spectrum that changes for each airline, for each route operated and even down to each individual flight. If aircraft weren't complex billion dollar investments, airlines would probably welcome even more flexibility in their operations.

This needs to stop. If the two of you were to be believed, most (if not all) airlines out there are fools who know nothing about the business they are in for choosing one or the other.

Back to the topic at hand, the 787 has long been believed to be at its MTOW limit. What exactly the limiting factor is, is debateable but based on what has been discussed over the years on this forum, I believe it is the landing gear and associated structure and how the weight is transferred to the pavement. From my understanding, Boeing tried to make the 787 as light and tight as possible. For this reason, the landing gear was only as big and structurally capable as was required at the time. Pavement loading is a factor from what I understand. Boeing had not committed to a larger 78J at the time and were very pleased with the sales of the 777 at the time. Obviously, the reasons could be something else and I could be completely off base.

They did not foresee the A350 programme growing so well in ability and size and how a variant of the 787 could be a great platform to compete in future.

Competition is a great thing and it is fun to watch. The airline business is a constantly evolving one and this is proof of it. Fun times.
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
sabby
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Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 12:06 pm

Motorhussy wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
wangjm777 wrote:
This could be the end of the A350 program. The ER version of 787-10 has a range of about 7600 nmi but burns at least 10% less than A350-900. Really impressive.

Are you posting from a coffee shop in Amsterdam? This kind of flamebait silliness degrades any thread in which it appears.


He’s changed his name again. I’d blocked his previous two incarnations.

Yup. And the mods do not care about reports. The pattern is quite clear.
 
morrisond
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 12:45 pm

Instead of increasing MTOW significantly - the other option could be they have figured out how to reduce empty weight - maybe an aero clean-up as well and an improved efficiency on engines (CMC parts?) - plus maybe a slight MTOW bump gets you the extra range.

3D printed internal structures could save a bunch of weight - those might be ready for prime time.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 12:57 pm

MoKa777 wrote:
There does not need to be one OR the other - 789 OR A359. They can, do and will continue to co-exist. Both are brilliant aircraft that fulfill their roles exceptionally well. Yes, one will be better than the other depending on the specific mission and airline requirement but overall, both are great.

I don't understand why RJMAZ is so desperate for the 789 to dominate over the A359 and Zeke is often so hell-bent on decrying the abilities or efficiencies of the 789. One being efficient and doing well does not take away from the other. There isn't a finite amount of "efficient" or "capable" in the world. The 789/J and A359 are not inversely proportional to each other's existence. If one does something well, it does not follow or mean that the other MUST be a failure in that regard. They exist on a spectrum that changes for each airline, for each route operated and even down to each individual flight. If aircraft weren't complex billion dollar investments, airlines would probably welcome even more flexibility in their operations.


That's a fuzzy, lack of ability to discriminate and make choices quality of intellect. Carriers make $Billion choices and are stuck with them for decades. Small differences - perhaps specific to route networks - do matter. It doesn't mean option A is worthless while option B is brilliant but they're really aren't too many open market tests to give an indication of success of A or B.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 1:09 pm

sabby wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
Are you posting from a coffee shop in Amsterdam? This kind of flamebait silliness degrades any thread in which it appears.


He’s changed his name again. I’d blocked his previous two incarnations.

Yup. And the mods do not care about reports. The pattern is quite clear.


Maybe you should have applied for the mod position. Sounds like you’ve got it all figured out.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 1:51 pm

zeke wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
A 787-9 with a 260T MTOW and zero increase in empty weight would see a big increase in sales.


Why didn’t they do it for the outset for EIS ?

Why haven’t they done it already ?

The 787-10 did not exist when the 787-9 entered service. So there was no stronger wing available.

The stronger wing developed for the 787-10 has only just been fitted to the 787-9 to increase commonality. So around 100 of the most recent 787-9's have the stronger wing fitted.

It would take quite some time to crunch the numbers and work out how much Boeing could increase the MTOW with the stronger wing fitted.

A small increase to the 787-9 would be fine considering how much heavier the 787-10 is. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work that out.

If Airbus did the same and fitted all of the stronger A350-1000 parts onto the A350-900 to increase commonality i'm sure we would both agree the A350-900 could receive a MTOW increase as well.
 
ewt340
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 3:43 pm

Quite of surprise they didn't order more B787-9 instead. I bet my money on that one.
 
sabby
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Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 4:28 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
sabby wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:

He’s changed his name again. I’d blocked his previous two incarnations.

Yup. And the mods do not care about reports. The pattern is quite clear.


Maybe you should have applied for the mod position. Sounds like you’ve got it all figured out.

There are a lot of members here who are far more knowledgeable and been here years. I don't commit for things for which I can't spare enough time, I'm a mod of a few other forums already.

I have no problem with anyone with a different opinion, but when a person uses the same drivel in every thread and derails from the main topic, it gets irritating. I (and others too I am sure) have reported many posts as well as the multiple duplicate usernames which has clear patterns, but to no avail.
 
Bricktop
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Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 6:31 pm

Strato2 wrote:
My condolences to the Y pax of NZ who have more narrow seats to endure now.

9AB on a 787 is perfectly fine for me, at 6' and 250 lbs, but now it seems like your beloved OEM is racing faster to the bottom.
But hey, you can crow about the "unparalleledeconomics" now. :thumbsup:

https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/2019/05/27/airbus-pushes-10-abreast-a350-beyond-leisure-charter-markets/
 
etoile
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Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 6:46 pm

Airlines0613 wrote:
OA940 wrote:
I never expected to see the words ''long range'' and ''787-10'' in the same sentence :P

Jokes aside, it'll be interesting to see how much they extend its range by. It should also help compete with the A350-900 more and could potentially attract more customers. But the question is what will they use for the hypothetical NYC flight.

In the article, they stated they would like to fly their newly ordered aircraft on the hypothetical AKL-NYC flight. Meaning, they want to place the Boeing 78J on the route, but it needs quite a bit of a range boost.


The article doesn't say that at all.
 
sabby
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Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 7:03 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
sabby wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:

Maybe you should have applied for the mod position. Sounds like you’ve got it all figured out.

There are a lot of members here who are far more knowledgeable and been here years. I don't commit for things for which I can't spare enough time, I'm a mod of a few other forums already.

I have no problem with anyone with a different opinion, but when a person uses the same drivel in every thread and derails from the main topic, it gets irritating. I (and others too I am sure) have reported many posts as well as the multiple duplicate usernames which has clear patterns, but to no avail.


So, as a mod in other forums, you think it’s cool when people who disagree with your decisions complain about you in the threads? Interesting. I should add that there is the Foe feature, which helps quite a bit in weeding those people out. Obviously if others quote them then you’re still gonna see their words unfortunately.

Of course! No one is above question, usually we explain when someone complains about a decision and we listen to their points as well. The main point about forums is to discuss and exchange ideas, opinions so if someone tries to derail a topic again and again, it is detrimental. I do use the Foe feature sparingly but not a fan as even those users may have something interesting to contribute to other topics.

Anyway, we should get back on topic now. Speaking of which, I always thought 787-10 is ideal for QF and NZ to replace 77E/A333 fleet in Asia. I do believe they'll eventually order more 789 to replace the 77W just like QF used 789 to replace 744. New Zealand has much less J demand than Aus, so capacity control and yield management is more relevant for them. Adding more frequency is always better when slots are not a problem. Having all 787 widebody fleet and all A320N narrowbody fleet also optimizes costs and training.
Last edited by sabby on Mon May 27, 2019 7:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 7:08 pm

sabby wrote:
PlanesNTrains wrote:
sabby wrote:
There are a lot of members here who are far more knowledgeable and been here years. I don't commit for things for which I can't spare enough time, I'm a mod of a few other forums already.

I have no problem with anyone with a different opinion, but when a person uses the same drivel in every thread and derails from the main topic, it gets irritating. I (and others too I am sure) have reported many posts as well as the multiple duplicate usernames which has clear patterns, but to no avail.


So, as a mod in other forums, you think it’s cool when people who disagree with your decisions complain about you in the threads? Interesting. I should add that there is the Foe feature, which helps quite a bit in weeding those people out. Obviously if others quote them then you’re still gonna see their words unfortunately.

Of course! No one is above question, usually we explain when someone complains about a decision and we listen to their points as well. The main point about forums is to discuss and exchange ideas, opinions so if someone tries to derail a topic again and again, it is detrimental. I do use the Foe feature sparingly but not a fan as even those users may have some interesting to contribute to other topics.


I agree about the Foe option. For moderator-related stuff: viewforum.php?f=12
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
wangjm777
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 7:22 pm

AECM wrote:
So if the B789 will be the aircraft for Auckland to New York, and if these birds get the rumored 2.5T MTOW increase, what type of seat capacity would Air New Zealand have? Currently they have two type of seat layout in the B789 C18W21Y263 and C27W33Y215


If they indeed plan to use 787-9 for AKL-NYC, they don’t need to have any MTOW increase. The current 787-9 can comfortably fly that route in any of the NZ’s configs. The range is not an issue. It only depends on the demand for premium seats on that routes.
 
Airlines0613
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Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 7:35 pm

etoile wrote:
Airlines0613 wrote:
OA940 wrote:
I never expected to see the words ''long range'' and ''787-10'' in the same sentence :P

Jokes aside, it'll be interesting to see how much they extend its range by. It should also help compete with the A350-900 more and could potentially attract more customers. But the question is what will they use for the hypothetical NYC flight.

In the article, they stated they would like to fly their newly ordered aircraft on the hypothetical AKL-NYC flight. Meaning, they want to place the Boeing 78J on the route, but it needs quite a bit of a range boost.


The article doesn't say that at all.

It did, but was edited out hours later and replaced with the 789 operating the flight.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 7:46 pm

wangjm777 wrote:
AECM wrote:
So if the B789 will be the aircraft for Auckland to New York, and if these birds get the rumored 2.5T MTOW increase, what type of seat capacity would Air New Zealand have? Currently they have two type of seat layout in the B789 C18W21Y263 and C27W33Y215


If they indeed plan to use 787-9 for AKL-NYC, they don’t need to have any MTOW increase. The current 787-9 can comfortably fly that route in any of the NZ’s configs. The range is not an issue. It only depends on the demand for premium seats on that routes.


So NZ have said the 302 seater couldn’t do LAX/SFO-AKl with a viable payload at 13hta yet it could do NYC-AKL at 17hrs, sure less freight demand but absolutely no way
 
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AECM
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 8:45 pm

wangjm777 wrote:
AECM wrote:
So if the B789 will be the aircraft for Auckland to New York, and if these birds get the rumored 2.5T MTOW increase, what type of seat capacity would Air New Zealand have? Currently they have two type of seat layout in the B789 C18W21Y263 and C27W33Y215


If they indeed plan to use 787-9 for AKL-NYC, they don’t need to have any MTOW increase. The current 787-9 can comfortably fly that route in any of the NZ’s configs. The range is not an issue. It only depends on the demand for premium seats on that routes.


Last edited by AECM on Mon May 27, 2019 8:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
etoile
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Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 8:46 pm

Airlines0613 wrote:
etoile wrote:
Airlines0613 wrote:
In the article, they stated they would like to fly their newly ordered aircraft on the hypothetical AKL-NYC flight. Meaning, they want to place the Boeing 78J on the route, but it needs quite a bit of a range boost.


The article doesn't say that at all.

It did, but was edited out hours later and replaced with the 789 operating the flight.


The article does not at all say that the newly ordered aircraft - of any subtype - would be used on the AKL-NYC route.
 
wangjm777
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 9:05 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
wangjm777 wrote:
AECM wrote:
So if the B789 will be the aircraft for Auckland to New York, and if these birds get the rumored 2.5T MTOW increase, what type of seat capacity would Air New Zealand have? Currently they have two type of seat layout in the B789 C18W21Y263 and C27W33Y215


If they indeed plan to use 787-9 for AKL-NYC, they don’t need to have any MTOW increase. The current 787-9 can comfortably fly that route in any of the NZ’s configs. The range is not an issue. It only depends on the demand for premium seats on that routes.


So NZ have said the 302 seater couldn’t do LAX/SFO-AKl with a viable payload at 13hta yet it could do NYC-AKL at 17hrs, sure less freight demand but absolutely no way


I didn’t know when NZ said the 302 version 787 could not do LAX-AKL due to range. Could you provide a source?

IMHO even if the 302 seater could, which I think it indeed can, do NZ-USA routes, NZ won’t use it because it is too dense and doesn’t not have enough premium seats.
 
strfyr51
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Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 9:50 pm

Antarius wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:
They want the A359 but don't want to diversify the fleet.


If they wanted the 359, they would order it :roll:


when you diversify a fleet you add expense diversity as well. Many of the Airbus Parts are internally interchangeable with Boeing but they would require engineering approvals for the use on either fleet.
I worked for United and even though we didn't readily swap parts between fleets we did use proven repair procedures whether Boeing or Airbus developed on BOTH our Boeing and Airbus Fleet.
We ,many times used Materials used by Boeing to repair our Airbus airplanes when we found deficiencies in the Airbus parts. And? Airbus Approved the repairs and materials (just as long as we didn't reference Boeing. That's one good thing about Airbus. When you have a good Idea? It's a Good Idea, Period!! They will accept a good repair if it came from an Aardvark!!
And especially if it makes the airplane more reliable. And we fly the fool out of our Airbus airplanes. And when our A350's come on board?
They will see new heights in reliability as long as the Rolls engines don't trip us up. (I believe that's why we haven't taken delivery of them up to now)
(had they been equipped with GE's or PW's We'd be flying the Paint off of them already..)
 
strfyr51
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 10:01 pm

filipinoavgeek wrote:
You know, I kind of find it interesting that, this being a Boeing order thread, that there has only been one "congratulations Boeing" post all thread. Somehow I have the feeling that if this NZ ordered Airbus planes instead, there would be more "congrats" posts. I could be wrong of course: it could be simply that the order was just a few hours ago and others who would post congratulations haven't done so yet, but still.


With Boeing considered to Many Airbus fans as the "Bully on the Block"?? There Won't be many congrats. Buying Boeing is considered a Standard move. Buying Airbus?
They consider as a "thumb in the Nose" to Boeing. Hell! It's a straight Business decision. Based on Cost and Support. No Big Deal.
 
Airlines0613
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Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 10:03 pm

etoile wrote:
Airlines0613 wrote:
etoile wrote:

The article doesn't say that at all.

It did, but was edited out hours later and replaced with the 789 operating the flight.


The article does not at all say that the newly ordered aircraft - of any subtype - would be used on the AKL-NYC route.

It did, that why other posters believed it as well.
 
smartplane
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Mon May 27, 2019 10:40 pm

TaniTaniwha wrote:
VirginFlyer wrote:

Did enough of it survive to make re-engining from one to the other possible, even if not in the original timeframe? If so, I wonder whether GE is going to try to go after and engine replacement for the 14 789s?

V/F


From Luxton "He adds, however, that the carrier is still pleased with its Trent-powered aircraft, and it plans to operate both engine types side-by-side for the foreseeable future."

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ht-458475/

Until the RR-powered 789's are replaced, they will operate both.

NZ is pleased this prospective aircraft order persuaded RR (with Airbus lobbying) to prioritise Trent 1000 deliveries for NZ's grounded 789's.

Was it really a two horse race - 2x different 787 models powered by GE, with A350 for window dressing and to get NZ's 789's back in the air faster?

Multiple engine selection is very strategic for smaller airlines, and for larger, multiple air frames and engines, a trend which will become increasingly common for WB and NB orders. The 787 family dual engine options, is definitely a plus when offering to smaller operators wanting to avoid having all eggs in the one basket. When taking out business interruption / loss of profits insurance, translates to lower premiums.
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 12:35 am

RJMAZ wrote:
The 787-10 did not exist when the 787-9 entered service. So there was no stronger wing available.

The stronger wing developed for the 787-10 has only just been fitted to the 787-9 to increase commonality. So around 100 of the most recent 787-9's have the stronger wing fitted.

It would take quite some time to crunch the numbers and work out how much Boeing could increase the MTOW with the stronger wing fitted.

A small increase to the 787-9 would be fine considering how much heavier the 787-10 is. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to work that out.

If Airbus did the same and fitted all of the stronger A350-1000 parts onto the A350-900 to increase commonality i'm sure we would both agree the A350-900 could receive a MTOW increase as well.


If Boeing could have gained a MTOW increase they would have already done so.

It is rocket science, it is complicated.

The 280 t A350-900 already has A350-1000 landing gear installed. Likewise higher MTOW A320, A330, A340 have different gear installed. There is a placard on it which indicates this.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
x1234
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 12:36 am

AKL-EWR WILL HAPPEN! AKL-EWR is actually shorter than PER-LHR so there you go:
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=PER-LHR%3B ... =wls&DU=km
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 12:42 am

smartplane wrote:
Was it really a two horse race - 2x different 787 models powered by GE, with A350 for window dressing and to get NZ's 789's back in the air faster?


I think they were genuinely interested in the A359, but it makes no sense to have a small fleet of 787s and then add a small fleet of 8 A350s. Look at the indirect costs like a new simulator.

The engine choice probably cane down to a NZpV analysis of the aircraft taking in the cost of ownership, maintenance etc over the life of the aircraft.

I would not read anything about reliability or fuel burn into the decision, it would purely be financial. It is not like the GEnx is perfect, engine fire in cruise a few weeks back.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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Slug71
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 1:14 am

No surprise here, especially with the switch to GE. Maybe some longterm plans to acquire the 777X.
I think RR lost this order for Airbus. But more 787s make more sense than a small fleet of A350s. If it doesn't work for the business model, then it just doesn't work.
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 1:19 am

zeke wrote:
If Boeing could have gained a MTOW increase they would have already done so.

To say that it is not possible because Boeing has not done it yet is crazy.

I think 737-10 development and 777X production would take priority over the last 12 months. Considering the stronger wing has only been fitted to the most recent 100 aircraft it is a perfectly acceptable timeframe.
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 1:36 am

If it was possible based on the changes already made they would have already Di e it. That tells me to make a further increase requires further changes.

You keep making sweeping statements like they are fact, with nothing to suggest they are e true.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
wangjm777
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 2:18 am

x1234 wrote:
AKL-EWR WILL HAPPEN! AKL-EWR is actually shorter than PER-LHR so there you go:
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=PER-LHR%3B ... =wls&DU=km


Note that PER-LHR doesn’t require MTOW increase on 787-9. 787-9 can do AKL-EWR as is now. The MTOW increase is more useful on 78X.
 
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flee
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 2:38 am

x1234 wrote:
AKL-EWR WILL HAPPEN! AKL-EWR is actually shorter than PER-LHR so there you go:
http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=PER-LHR%3B ... =wls&DU=km

QF uses a 236 seat B789 for PER-LHR.

NZ may need to make their B789 cabins less dense and more premium heavy if they want to use their B789s for the proposed AKL-EWR route. Not sure if their newest 275 seat planes can make it without blocking off seats.
 
Kiwiscanfly2
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 2:39 am

An early post suggested the 789 and the 78N (N for more J and PE seats) have cabin crew on the Mid Haul contract and the 777E & W are on the Long Haul contract. Possibly almost 100% correct. For the 777E & W I understand there are actually 2 versions of the Long Haul contract. One which was grandfathered some years back to ring fence benefits, roster allowances and salaries and another which is more contemporary and less generous. Both are different to the Mid Haul contract which has less $s and no extra $s for working in PE or further forward in J.

There are going to be some interesting IR / union collective bargaining challenges facing the company when the change out of the 77E starts be it 789/N or 78J or a combination of the 3. I guess employees still flying on grandfathered contracts will embark on a transition to geriatric status (if they aren't already) as the 77W fleet gracefully age.
 
DavidByrne
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 2:42 am

Slug71 wrote:
I think RR lost this order for Airbus.

Despite the NZ CEO specifically saying that was not the case. And despite the fact that the 78J clearly had advantages of fleet commonality over the A359. It's great that A-netters can identify the real truth obscured by such cleverly disguised very clear and unambiguous statements.
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
 
smartplane
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 3:07 am

zeke wrote:
smartplane wrote:
Was it really a two horse race - 2x different 787 models powered by GE, with A350 for window dressing and to get NZ's 789's back in the air faster?


I think they were genuinely interested in the A359, but it makes no sense to have a small fleet of 787s and then add a small fleet of 8 A350s. Look at the indirect costs like a new simulator.

The engine choice probably cane down to a NZpV analysis of the aircraft taking in the cost of ownership, maintenance etc over the life of the aircraft.

I would not read anything about reliability or fuel burn into the decision, it would purely be financial. It is not like the GEnx is perfect, engine fire in cruise a few weeks back.

If it was purely financial, RR fixed price maintenance out to 12 years (EK bargaining power got 14-15) would surely have beaten GE to 6 years?

NZ is being diplomatic. For now, they have a considerable RR investment, and may have new issues where the OEM's goodwill could be vital.
 
Antarius
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 4:05 am

zeke wrote:
I would not read anything about reliability or fuel burn into the decision, it would purely be financial. It is not like the GEnx is perfect, engine fire in cruise a few weeks back.


A single data point, now a trend make?
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zeke
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 4:18 am

Antarius wrote:

A single data point, now a trend make?


I forgot this was only a pro Boeing pro GE thread, do you think that is the only engine related issue ? It just happened to be the most recent I recalled. There have been the icing issues, first-stage nozzles and blades, as well as its combustor lining and fuel nozzles, oil pipe issues, inlet lining abrasion, the double engine rollback on the Jetstar aircraft. Hasn’t been the perfect power plant people make it out to be, just normal in service stuff.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
VV
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 7:58 am

Please help me to understand.

Which aircraft were in competition before ANZ selected 787-10/GEnx? Thank you.
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 8:09 am

VV wrote:
Please help me to understand.

Which aircraft were in competition before ANZ selected 787-10/GEnx? Thank you.


The 787, A350, 77X were being looked at to replace the 8 777-200s.

“Air New Zealand is aiming to place an order in March or April 2019 for Boeing 787s, 777Xs or Airbus A350s to replace its eight 777-200s, and potentially establish a pathway to replace its -300ERs later on.”

From https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... il-449448/
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
VV
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 8:51 am

zeke wrote:
VV wrote:
Please help me to understand.

Which aircraft were in competition before ANZ selected 787-10/GEnx? Thank you.


The 787, A350, 77X were being looked at to replace the 8 777-200s.

“Air New Zealand is aiming to place an order in March or April 2019 for Boeing 787s, 777Xs or Airbus A350s to replace its eight 777-200s, and potentially establish a pathway to replace its -300ERs later on.”

From https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... il-449448/


Thank you.

So the runners were: 787 (RR&GE), 777X(GE) and A350(RR).
The selection process resulted in ANZ choosing 787-10 (and 787-9) with GE GEnx-1B engines.

Is it reasonable to assume the next WB contest, if there will be one, is between A350(RR) and 777X(GE)?
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 9:01 am

VV wrote:
Is it reasonable to assume the next WB contest, if there will be one, is between A350(RR) and 777X(GE)?


I would assume they replace the 77W with 7878/9/10. Too small of a fleet to introduce a new type.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
StudiodeKadent
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 9:19 am

zeke wrote:

I would assume they replace the 77W with 7878/9/10. Too small of a fleet to introduce a new type.


Agreed entirely. NZ can get everywhere they may want to go (apart from Europe, Middle East and North Africa, and there's only one or perhaps two viable destinations for them in those regions) with the 787 family. The 787-9 for South America and YVR/IAD/ORD/EWR, and the 787-10 for HKG/PVG/LAX/SFO/HND.

That's an astoundingly efficient fleet which could give NZ more destinations at higher frequencies, perhaps improve yields, and keep commonality high and training costs low.
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 9:33 am

I agree, would assume the 787-10 would also do LAX-LHR, and could even do HKG/PVG-LHR.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
VV
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 9:34 am

zeke wrote:
VV wrote:
Is it reasonable to assume the next WB contest, if there will be one, is between A350(RR) and 777X(GE)?


I would assume they replace the 77W with 7878/9/10. Too small of a fleet to introduce a new type.


Fair enough. Their home market is not big (population: 5 million).

In addition, it may not be very easy to tap passengers from Australia.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 10:36 am

This indicates that the later 777W replacement need was not a factor in this order and remains up for grabs. But it would for competitive reasons, whether NZ has any current preference or not:

"The 777-200ER decision had been expected by some observers to drive its plans to replace its eight 777-300ERs in future. But Luxon says that the company has “compartmentalised” the decisions on 777-200 and the later -300ER replacement programme, and will run a separate process towards the middle of next decade for a larger jet.

“Our intention at this point is that the 777-300ERs come up for replacement around the mid- to late-2020s, and that would be the logical time when we would probably want to go off and look at a larger aircraft, so the A350s and Boeing 777-Xs come into that frame at that point in time,” he says."

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 0s-458479/
 
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flee
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 11:40 am

May I suggest the mods create sub forums for the A and B fanbois so that we can be spared of their posts in factual discussions.

Lets get back on topic and discuss the ANZ order.

Thanks!
 
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flee
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 12:03 pm

Flightglobal analyses the order here: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 0s-458479/
 
aryonoco
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 12:06 pm

Congratulations to NZ and Boeing. And to GE! What a coup!

78J is the perfect frame for NZ. It will serve them very well for routes to Australia as well as Asian routes. I expect they will eventually reconfigure their 9s to a less dense config and put them on ULH routes.

Looking into the future, when it's time to retire the remaining 777, I expect they'll all be replaced by a combination of 78J and 789s. In all honestly the Dreamliner can be a single solution to all of NZ's widebody needs.
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 12:16 pm

aryonoco wrote:
Looking into the future, when it's time to retire the remaining 777, I expect they'll all be replaced by a combination of 78J and 789s. In all honestly the Dreamliner can be a single solution to all of NZ's widebody needs.


I think so too, I disagree with the last paragraph in the FG article. I think mid 2020s an ultrafan powered 787-9/10 will do everything they need.

The comment about the GEnx being more efficient has my head scratching giving the long time it is taking these new aircraft to enter the fleet and the timeframe they are talking about 777-200 retirees.

They are just showing their hand to the competition allowing for the market to negate their DOC advantage.

Some 787-8s and/or A321LRs in order for shorter Pacific routes. Something closer to the 767 size and range is needed.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
tealnz
Posts: 567
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 12:23 pm

aryonoco wrote:
Congratulations to NZ and Boeing. And to GE! What a coup!

78J is the perfect frame for NZ. It will serve them very well for routes to Australia as well as Asian routes. I expect they will eventually reconfigure their 9s to a less dense config and put them on ULH routes.

Looking into the future, when it's time to retire the remaining 777, I expect they'll all be replaced by a combination of 78J and 789s. In all honestly the Dreamliner can be a single solution to all of NZ's widebody needs.

Doesn't sound as if the CEO sees it that way:

The 777-200ER decision had been expected by some observers to drive its plans to replace its eight 777-300ERs in future. But Luxon says that the company has “compartmentalised” the decisions on 777-200 and the later -300ER replacement programme, and will run a separate process towards the middle of next decade for a larger jet.

“Our intention at this point is that the 777-300ERs come up for replacement around the mid- to late-2020s, and that would be the logical time when we would probably want to go off and look at a larger aircraft, so the A350s and Boeing 777-Xs come into that frame at that point in time,” he says.

From https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/analysis-air-nz-opts-for-flexibility-with-787-10s-458479/
 
Antarius
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 12:26 pm

zeke wrote:
Antarius wrote:

A single data point, now a trend make?


I forgot this was only a pro Boeing pro GE thread, do you think that is the only engine related issue ? It just happened to be the most recent I recalled. There have been the icing issues, first-stage nozzles and blades, as well as its combustor lining and fuel nozzles, oil pipe issues, inlet lining abrasion, the double engine rollback on the Jetstar aircraft. Hasn’t been the perfect power plant people make it out to be, just normal in service stuff.


It is neither. You're the only one trying to make it an anti one.

Which was my point.
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