tealnz
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 12:29 pm

zeke wrote:
I think mid 2020s an ultrafan powered 787-9/10 will do everything they need.

That could certainly change the game. But a lot will depend on RR demonstrating they have got on top of their current design and materials issues in developing and proving the Ultrafan.
 
tealnz
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 12:36 pm

I think you're over-reading things mate. NPV calculations are pretty fundamental in procurement decisions. And both OEMs make judgments on how far they're prepared to sharpen their pencils for a specific order. Can't see sour grapes in there. FWIW in his latest posts he's suggesting that it will also likely make sense for NZ to for the 787 come time to replace the 77Ws.
 
Bricktop
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 12:57 pm

tealnz wrote:
I think you're over-reading things mate. NPV calculations are pretty fundamental in procurement decisions. And both OEMs make judgments on how far they're prepared to sharpen their pencils for a specific order. Can't see sour grapes in there. FWIW in his latest posts he's suggesting that it will also likely make sense for NZ to for the 787 come time to replace the 77Ws.

Gotcha, but I am saying I give zeke the benefit of the doubt, yet some of our more Boeing favoring posters have lenses tinted differently and might see otherwise. For me, it’s a no-brainer to stay in the 787 family for NZ, and I agree with zeke that the B77W replacement will go that way too. Airbus is only in that game for window dressing.

As someone who did procurement in a past life, the vast majority of decisions came down to price, if all candidates met our spec. X may be able to do things Y can’t but if we don’t need it and it costs more then tough. And the loser often said the winner got it on price. Yeah, duh!
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 1:31 pm

Bricktop wrote:
As someone who did procurement in a past life, the vast majority of decisions came down to price, if all candidates met our spec. X may be able to do things Y can’t but if we don’t need it and it costs more then tough. And the loser often said the winner got it on price. Yeah, duh!


Airlines employ corporate finance types that would perform NVP/IRR/LCC analysis. The upfront cost is just a factor, the more expensive aircraft can actually produce a better internal rate of return in the long term.

We do not know if this will be purchase, lease, purchase and buyback, export credits, maintenance guarantees, depreciation, tax, disposal, guaranteed residual, expected load factors on different routes, projected growth rates, revenue, crew costs, other DOCs.

Then for a new type you would look at tooling, parts, simulator, training.

Have a read of this case study it will open your eyes.
http://www.connvaluation.com/caseStudie ... rchase.pdf
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Bricktop
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 1:48 pm

zeke wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
As someone who did procurement in a past life, the vast majority of decisions came down to price, if all candidates met our spec. X may be able to do things Y can’t but if we don’t need it and it costs more then tough. And the loser often said the winner got it on price. Yeah, duh!


Airlines employ corporate finance types that would perform NVP/IRR/LCC analysis. The upfront cost is just a factor, the more expensive aircraft can actually produce a better internal rate of return in the long term.

We do not know if this will be purchase, lease, purchase and buyback, export credits, maintenance guarantees, depreciation, tax, disposal, guaranteed residual, expected load factors on different routes, projected growth rates, revenue, crew costs, other DOCs.

Then for a new type you would look at tooling, parts, simulator, training.

Have a read of this case study it will open your eyes.
http://www.connvaluation.com/caseStudie ... rchase.pdf

We did buy things more involved than pens and notepads. Those are all components of "price" we used in a DCF analysis. Some obviously were irrelevant and unused in our models. In the end (actually the beginning), the spec definition was the key though.
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 2:09 pm

Did you use Monte Carlo methods ? Airlines are dynamic environments where there is no “spec” that fits every route. The analysis is done over the network, with seasonal changes, and projected growth.

The process takes us literally months with a lot of people working on it.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Bricktop
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 2:15 pm

zeke wrote:
Did you use Monte Carlo methods ? Airlines are dynamic environments where there is no “spec” that fits every route. The analysis is done over the network, with seasonal changes, and projected growth.

The process takes us literally months with a lot of people working on it.

Nah, our risk management was a lot more ad hoc back then, and we weren't nearly as sophisticated as they are now. Our procurement wasn't nearly as complex as buying planes, and most of it was in 1-2-3 and Excel. :o
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 2:45 pm

Using all of the 'real estate' with a mix of business, economy, and plus is the -10 efficiencies great for trans Atlantic? Basically the question is a 3000 nm flight optimal for a longer legged plane?
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
claudiofalcao
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 3:34 pm

Let me understand...
Will the Boeing 787-10 fly in LR route: Auckland - New York?
If so, will be necessary modify the airplane with more fuel?
Flew, as a passenger, on B727-200, 737-200/300/400, 747-300, 757-200, 767-300, 777-200, A319, A320 Ceo/Neo, A321, DC-10, MD-87, MD-11, E-190, E-195.
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 3:39 pm

claudiofalcao wrote:
Let me understand...
Will the Boeing 787-10 fly in ULR route: Auckland - New York?


No, the 787-10 would be useful for AKL-lAX-LHR, AKL-SFO, AKL-PEK, AKL-HKG.

For routes in North America not on the east coast in New York would be 787-9. They could time it for two flights a day, one for a morning arrival, and one for an evening arrival.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
claudiofalcao
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 3:56 pm

zeke wrote:
claudiofalcao wrote:
Let me understand...
Will the Boeing 787-10 fly in ULR route: Auckland - New York?


No, the 787-10 would be useful for AKL-lAX-LHR, AKL-SFO, AKL-PEK, AKL-HKG.

For routes in North America not on the east coast in New York would be 787-9. They could time it for two flights a day, one for a morning arrival, and one for an evening arrival.


Oh, OK.
Flew, as a passenger, on B727-200, 737-200/300/400, 747-300, 757-200, 767-300, 777-200, A319, A320 Ceo/Neo, A321, DC-10, MD-87, MD-11, E-190, E-195.
 
claudiofalcao
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 4:00 pm

Does ANZ intend to fly directly from Auckland to New York or London?
Flew, as a passenger, on B727-200, 737-200/300/400, 747-300, 757-200, 767-300, 777-200, A319, A320 Ceo/Neo, A321, DC-10, MD-87, MD-11, E-190, E-195.
 
ewt340
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Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 4:20 pm

Bricktop wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
My condolences to the Y pax of NZ who have more narrow seats to endure now.

9AB on a 787 is perfectly fine for me, at 6' and 250 lbs, but now it seems like your beloved OEM is racing faster to the bottom.
But hey, you can crow about the "unparalleledeconomics" now. :thumbsup:

https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/2019/05/27/airbus-pushes-10-abreast-a350-beyond-leisure-charter-markets/


Damn girl, you have anorexia. Let's be fair though, 9-abreast B787 and 10-abreast B777 are as comfortable as B737.
 
ewt340
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 4:23 pm

claudiofalcao wrote:
Does ANZ intend to fly directly from Auckland to New York or London?


There is no way they could do Auckland - London direct, maybe new york with B787-9 by stretching the range and limiting the payload. But there is just no way they could do London.
 
claudiofalcao
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 4:28 pm

ewt340 wrote:
claudiofalcao wrote:
Does ANZ intend to fly directly from Auckland to New York or London?


There is no way they could do Auckland - London direct, maybe new york with B787-9 by stretching the range and limiting the payload. But there is just no way they could do London.


Oh, OK. Thanks!
Flew, as a passenger, on B727-200, 737-200/300/400, 747-300, 757-200, 767-300, 777-200, A319, A320 Ceo/Neo, A321, DC-10, MD-87, MD-11, E-190, E-195.
 
9Patch
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 4:38 pm

zeke wrote:
I forgot this was only a pro Boeing pro GE thread, do you think that is the only engine related issue ? It just happened to be the most recent I recalled. There have been the icing issues, first-stage nozzles and blades, as well as its combustor lining and fuel nozzles, oil pipe issues, inlet lining abrasion, the double engine rollback on the Jetstar aircraft. Hasn’t been the perfect power plant people make it out to be, just normal in service stuff.


But the RR 787 engine issues we're not 'just normal in service stuff' --no?

Have they been fixed yet?
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 4:54 pm

9Patch wrote:
But the RR 787 issues we're not 'just normal in service stuff' --no?


I think they are, for teh material being employed. I do not know if the engine came out 20 years ago if the same problems would be as widespread. My understanding is the higher sulfur concentrations in the air in some parts of the world is mixing with moisture to create sulfuric acid which is eating the coating on the outside of the blades, that associated with particles on the ground and in the air is eroding the blades.

Academically it is a possible failure mode that been investigated for some time e.g. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c0ed/6 ... d5eb5e.pdf
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
aryonoco
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Tue May 28, 2019 11:51 pm

tealnz wrote:
Doesn't sound as if the CEO sees it that way:

The 777-200ER decision had been expected by some observers to drive its plans to replace its eight 777-300ERs in future. But Luxon says that the company has “compartmentalised” the decisions on 777-200 and the later -300ER replacement programme, and will run a separate process towards the middle of next decade for a larger jet.


Of course Luxon is not going to publicly tip his hand for this future order right now. He'll want a competitive process and he'll want to get the best deal from Airbus and Boeing for their future 77W replacement.

But personally, I don't see the need for a second widebody type in NZ's colours. Maybe the MoM if that ever comes out for some of the pacific routes and routes from Wellington and Christchurch to Australia... but I firmly believe all of NZ's medium haul and long haul demands can be, and will be met by the 787.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Wed May 29, 2019 8:18 am

aryonoco wrote:
tealnz wrote:
Doesn't sound as if the CEO sees it that way:

The 777-200ER decision had been expected by some observers to drive its plans to replace its eight 777-300ERs in future. But Luxon says that the company has “compartmentalised” the decisions on 777-200 and the later -300ER replacement programme, and will run a separate process towards the middle of next decade for a larger jet.


Of course Luxon is not going to publicly tip his hand for this future order right now. He'll want a competitive process and he'll want to get the best deal from Airbus and Boeing for their future 77W replacement.

But personally, I don't see the need for a second widebody type in NZ's colours. Maybe the MoM if that ever comes out for some of the pacific routes and routes from Wellington and Christchurch to Australia... but I firmly believe all of NZ's medium haul and long haul demands can be, and will be met by the 787.


Agreed it was always tough to see the A350 in the fleet anyway, personally think the 77W will be replaced by 787s of some sort.

MOM, that’s the A321 for NZ, there are very few routes that need MOM that can’t be done by A321 while WLG and CHC only see A320s regularly so they could go to A321s or increase frequency with A320s.
 
Gangurru
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Wed May 29, 2019 10:13 am

I’m not surprised by the split engine order.

Firstly, Air NZ has a longstanding relationship with GE stretching back nearly 50 years. It also has a successful gas turbine business which services the marine version of GE aircraft engines: http://www.airnewzealandgasturbines.co.nz

Secondly Air NZ has experienced fleet groundings in the past (DC10, 737 hushkits, 787s). Being solely reliant on a single airframe and engine combination for its entire long haul fleet is a potential business continuity risk. A split order seems like a sensible insurance policy.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Fri May 31, 2019 6:46 am

Article is behind paywall but there is apparently a boost in performance coming for the 787. https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-deve ... tas-deals/
 
ITSTours
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Fri May 31, 2019 8:12 am

https://twitter.com/graysonottaway/stat ... 0632603648
Apparently 260T MTOW for 787-9 and 787-10.
 
9Patch
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Fri May 31, 2019 9:53 am

zeke wrote:
9Patch wrote:
But the RR 787 issues we're not 'just normal in service stuff' --no?


I think they are, for teh material being employed. I do not know if the engine came out 20 years ago if the same problems would be as widespread. My understanding is the higher sulfur concentrations in the air in some parts of the world is mixing with moisture to create sulfuric acid which is eating the coating on the outside of the blades, that associated with particles on the ground and in the air is eroding the blades.

Academically it is a possible failure mode that been investigated for some time e.g. https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/c0ed/6 ... d5eb5e.pdf

Have the GE issues led to fleet groundings?
 
aviationaware
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Fri May 31, 2019 11:02 am

zeke wrote:

I think so too, I disagree with the last paragraph in the FG article. I think mid 2020s an ultrafan powered 787-9/10 will do everything they need.


Speaking of this, does anyone know what the maximum fan diameter the 787 airframe can take is? The aircraft looks like Boeing repeated the 737’s mistake of giving it too low a ground clearance and the A350 will be able to take a much larger fan.
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Fri May 31, 2019 1:11 pm

9Patch wrote:
Have the GE issues led to fleet groundings?


I don’t think any engine has technically caused 787 grounding, however both engines types are subject to ADs. What is taking time is time to
Implement AD, where the type and number of parts on the Trent 1000 are grater.

If you have a look at that paper I linked above you will notice it originates from Cincinnati.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
9Patch
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Fri May 31, 2019 4:19 pm

zeke wrote:
9Patch wrote:
Have the GE issues led to fleet groundings?


I don’t think any engine has technically caused 787 grounding, however both engines types are subject to ADs. What is taking time is time to
Implement AD, where the type and number of parts on the Trent 1000 are grater.

'Technically' there was no grounding of RR 787 engines?
Perhaps not by the FAA or some other government entity, but by the airlines themselves?
Somebody made a decision to ground them. There was a thread about it:
Rolls-Royce: More 787 groundings imminent.
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1395327
With links to articles like this:

Britain’s best known engineering company has been hit by a problem with a compressor in the Trent 1000 package C engine that is not lasting as long as expected, grounding planes, forcing inspections and angering airline clients.

The existing package C issue had led to about 30 of the affected aircraft being grounded at any one time for checks. They were flown by airlines including British Airways, Virgin Atlantic and Air New Zealand (AIR.NZ).

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-roll ... SKBN1J70JS

If you have a look at that paper I linked above you will notice it originates from Cincinnati.

Four of the five authors are from the University of Cincinnati. Why is that relevant?
The paper references the University of Cincinnati erosion wind tunnel facility.
And yes, I'm aware that GE makes jet engines in Cincinnati.
What point are you trying to make?
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Fri May 31, 2019 4:31 pm

An engine AD is applicable to an engine, not the airframe, they have their own TCDS. An engine AD does not ground a fleet.

I said it already, blade erosion is not an issue that is unique to RR, or something that is new. That is why it is researched widely.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
9Patch
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:05 am

zeke wrote:
An engine AD is applicable to an engine, not the airframe, they have their own TCDS. An engine AD does not ground a fleet.

I said it already, blade erosion is not an issue that is unique to RR, or something that is new. That is why it is researched widely.

You didn't answer the question, why is Cincinnati relevant? Why did you say I should have noticed this?
Isn't it researched widely to prevent it from happening in the first place? What difference does it make where that research takes place?
I said it already, have the GE issues led to fleet groundings?
It seems like the RR 787 issues we're not 'just normal' in service stuff.
 
RainerBoeing777
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:11 am

The boeing 787-10 has enough autonomy to fly to LAX, SFO and YVR? if possible in the future the B77W can be replaced by this model, with the entry of UA in SFO-AKL and NZ does not need much capacity in this route, and the Boeing 787-9 can fly to more destinations such as YYZ, IAD, EWR, DEN, you do not need as many connections in LAX
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG
 
DavidByrne
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:51 am

The 260 T MTOW version of the -10 must be what NZ needed to persuade it to buy. With that MTOW no problem to fly AKL-LAX-LHR if required (though the 77W will be around for a good while yet).
This is not my beautiful house . . . This is not my beautiful wife
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:28 am

9Patch wrote:
You didn't answer the question, why is Cincinnati relevant?


Please reread my posts. I have explained it all.

It is evident to everyone that the 787 fleet was not grounded, neither was every aircraft with RR engines grounded. It only applied to the engines that were subject to the AD, even if they were not installed on an aircraft.

Have a good day, I am not going to argue this with you.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Sat Jun 01, 2019 7:34 am

DavidByrne wrote:
The 260 T MTOW version of the -10 must be what NZ needed to persuade it to buy. With that MTOW no problem to fly AKL-LAX-LHR if required (though the 77W will be around for a good while yet).


They said fairly recently that the -10 was great for Asian routes similar to the 763. I think there was a good chance they would have ordered the -10 here, possibly slightly less of them with additional 789s.
 
marcelh
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:34 am

What does the improvement of the MTOW to 260T bring in additional range?
 
9Patch
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:19 am

zeke wrote:
9Patch wrote:
You didn't answer the question, why is Cincinnati relevant?

Please reread my posts. I have explained it all.

No you haven't.

It is evident to everyone that the 787 fleet was not grounded, neither was every aircraft with RR engines grounded. It only applied to the engines that were subject to the AD, even if they were not installed on an aircraft.

Straw man arguments. I questioned whether the RR 787 issues were normal in service stuff. You said you think they are. Everything else is just distraction and deflection.
 
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zeke
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:05 pm

9Patch wrote:
No you haven't.


:talktothehand: :liar:

9Patch wrote:
l questioned whether the RR 787 issues were normal in service stuff. You said you think they are.


:bigthumbsup:
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Sat Jun 01, 2019 12:19 pm

marcelh wrote:
What does the improvement of the MTOW to 260T bring in additional range?

About an extra hour (so about 900km). Couple that with any other weight reduction (rumoured to be about 1t) and a lower density configuration (could save another 3t) then you end up with about 1500km more range - so AKL-LAX/SFO easily and YVR should be possible.
59 types. 41 countries. 24 airlines.
 
morrisond
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:03 pm

Zkpilot wrote:
marcelh wrote:
What does the improvement of the MTOW to 260T bring in additional range?

About an extra hour (so about 900km). Couple that with any other weight reduction (rumoured to be about 1t) and a lower density configuration (could save another 3t) then you end up with about 1500km more range - so AKL-LAX/SFO easily and YVR should be possible.


By 2022 could at CMC PIP be in the cards as well? Any aero clean-ups possible?

So would that basically take the 781 into the 7,400-7,600NM range area? Or basically more than the original 77W?

And does that then take the 789 up into the mid 8,000's?

Kind of scary (in a good way ) what the ranges will be when they re-engine it eventually and get 10% less fuel burn.
 
Checklist787
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Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:52 pm

ewt340 wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
My condolences to the Y pax of NZ who have more narrow seats to endure now.

9AB on a 787 is perfectly fine for me, at 6' and 250 lbs, but now it seems like your beloved OEM is racing faster to the bottom.
But hey, you can crow about the "unparalleledeconomics" now. :thumbsup:

https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/2019/05/27/airbus-pushes-10-abreast-a350-beyond-leisure-charter-markets/


Damn girl, you have anorexia. Let's be fair though, 9-abreast B787 and 10-abreast B777 are as comfortable as B737.


This is wrong 9-abreast 787 is more comfortable than the 777ER and 737. The 787 seat width is 17.2 inches. Also the pitch between the knees and the seat is the most decisive factor in a trip but also the multimedia and service offered by the airline..
 
marcelh
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Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Sat Jun 01, 2019 1:53 pm

morrisond wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
marcelh wrote:
What does the improvement of the MTOW to 260T bring in additional range?

About an extra hour (so about 900km). Couple that with any other weight reduction (rumoured to be about 1t) and a lower density configuration (could save another 3t) then you end up with about 1500km more range - so AKL-LAX/SFO easily and YVR should be possible.


By 2022 could at CMC PIP be in the cards as well? Any aero clean-ups possible?

So would that basically take the 781 into the 7,400-7,600NM range area? Or basically more than the original 77W?

And does that then take the 789 up into the mid 8,000's?

Kind of scary (in a good way ) what the ranges will be when they re-engine it eventually and get 10% less fuel burn.

But realistically, who needs the range?
 
ewt340
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Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:34 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
9AB on a 787 is perfectly fine for me, at 6' and 250 lbs, but now it seems like your beloved OEM is racing faster to the bottom.
But hey, you can crow about the "unparalleledeconomics" now. :thumbsup:

https://runwaygirlnetwork.com/2019/05/27/airbus-pushes-10-abreast-a350-beyond-leisure-charter-markets/


Damn girl, you have anorexia. Let's be fair though, 9-abreast B787 and 10-abreast B777 are as comfortable as B737.


This is wrong 9-abreast 787 is more comfortable than the 777ER and 737. The 787 seat width is 17.2 inches. Also the pitch between the knees and the seat is the most decisive factor in a trip but also the multimedia and service offered by the airline..


It's not much of an achievement isn't it? Seriously though, after flying multiple times with SQ's B787-10. I could say, my skinny asian frames feel cramped especially in the middle seat.
 
morrisond
Posts: 1244
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2010 12:22 am

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:05 pm

marcelh wrote:
morrisond wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
About an extra hour (so about 900km). Couple that with any other weight reduction (rumoured to be about 1t) and a lower density configuration (could save another 3t) then you end up with about 1500km more range - so AKL-LAX/SFO easily and YVR should be possible.


By 2022 could at CMC PIP be in the cards as well? Any aero clean-ups possible?

So would that basically take the 781 into the 7,400-7,600NM range area? Or basically more than the original 77W?

And does that then take the 789 up into the mid 8,000's?

Kind of scary (in a good way ) what the ranges will be when they re-engine it eventually and get 10% less fuel burn.

But realistically, who needs the range?



For the 781 it probably won't really be a question of using that extra MTOW for range - it's most likely use will be Cargo - that's an awful lot of belly space.
 
Bricktop
Posts: 1375
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2016 11:04 am

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:12 pm

ewt340 wrote:
It's not much of an achievement isn't it? Seriously though, after flying multiple times with SQ's B787-10. I could say, my skinny asian frames feel cramped especially in the middle seat.

And yet my lard-ass American frame was perfectly fine on multiple BA 788 and VS/DY 789. Maybe all such subjective observations should not be posted as fact, lest they turn into a.net dogma? :scratchchin:
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 17956
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:39 pm

morrisond wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
marcelh wrote:
What does the improvement of the MTOW to 260T bring in additional range?

About an extra hour (so about 900km). Couple that with any other weight reduction (rumoured to be about 1t) and a lower density configuration (could save another 3t) then you end up with about 1500km more range - so AKL-LAX/SFO easily and YVR should be possible.


By 2022 could at CMC PIP be in the cards as well? Any aero clean-ups possible?

So would that basically take the 781 into the 7,400-7,600NM range area? Or basically more than the original 77W?

And does that then take the 789 up into the mid 8,000's?

Kind of scary (in a good way ) what the ranges will be when they re-engine it eventually and get 10% less fuel burn.

GE has developed CMCs for the GE9x. It is plausible by 2023 they introduce for about a 2.4% fuel burn reduction to introduce to the GEnX. There is some GE9x tech not retrofitable, there is other tech that is (better turbine clearance control, about 0.75% fuel burn reduction).

I personally like the weight removal. That is always good in an aircraft.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
9Patch
Posts: 333
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:38 pm

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Sat Jun 01, 2019 3:47 pm

zeke wrote:
9Patch wrote:
No you haven't.


:talktothehand: :liar:

9Patch wrote:
l questioned whether the RR 787 issues were normal in service stuff. You said you think they are.


:bigthumbsup:

Air NZ doesn't think so.
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13916
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:18 pm

Naturally you have provided a source to back that up :roll:
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Checklist787
Posts: 184
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Sat Jun 01, 2019 4:51 pm

ewt340 wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

Damn girl, you have anorexia. Let's be fair though, 9-abreast B787 and 10-abreast B777 are as comfortable as B737.


This is wrong 9-abreast 787 is more comfortable than the 777ER and 737. The 787 seat width is 17.2 inches. Also the pitch between the knees and the seat is the most decisive factor in a trip but also the multimedia and service offered by the airline..


It's not much of an achievement isn't it? Seriously though, after flying multiple times with SQ's B787-10. I could say, my skinny asian frames feel cramped especially in the middle seat.


Middle seat has never been the best seat whether you're sitting in an 18 ", 17" or 17.2 "seat.

You're out of luck.
Maybe they need to introduce wider seats in triple blocks seats à la A220 in the futur? ..

B797 / A370 ? ?
 
9Patch
Posts: 333
Joined: Wed Mar 13, 2019 10:38 pm

Re: Updated, confirmed - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:07 am

zeke wrote:
Naturally you have provided a source to back that up :roll:

And your arguments consist of whataboutism, false equivalency, and a fog machine of distraction and deflection. :yes:
 
BBJ777X
Posts: 29
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:16 pm

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:12 am

Bricktop wrote:
wangjm777 wrote:
This could be the end of the A350 program. The ER version of 787-10 has a range of about 7600 nmi but burns at least 10% less than A350-900. Really impressive.

Are you posting from a coffee shop in Amsterdam? This kind of flamebait silliness degrades any thread in which it appears.


I mean... now that the 6t MTOW increase on both 789 and 781 is confirmed.. MTOW increase and weight reduction put 781 into the 7000 nmi - 7600 nmi territory. 781 is a serious 77E replacement now. A350 needs a major improvement, otherwise what advantage does it have? 781 has major fuel burn advantage....
 
User avatar
zeke
Posts: 13916
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2006 1:42 pm

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:37 am

9Patch wrote:
And your arguments consist of whataboutism, false equivalency, and a fog machine of distraction and deflection. :yes:


The onus is on you to provide a source to backup your claims. Everyone can see though your personal attacks for what they are.

Sulfidation is a common in service issue with turbine engines, it is not unique to RR. The only way to fix components that have had excessive exposure is to replace them. Where and how the aircraft is used has a large impact on the exposure.

https://www.aviationpros.com/engines-co ... -corrosion

The components take considerable time to manufacture, if a lot of engines have the same defect detected like the Trent 1000 case you end up waiting for parts.

BBJ777X wrote:
I mean... now that the 6t MTOW increase on both 789 and 781 is confirmed.. MTOW increase and weight reduction put 781 into the 7000 nmi - 7600 nmi territory. 781 is a serious 77E replacement now. A350 needs a major improvement, otherwise what advantage does it have? 781 has major fuel burn advantage....


1- nothing has been confirmed relating to a 6t increase
2- there is no major fuel burn difference between the A350 and 787.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
sabby
Posts: 338
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:11 pm

Re: Report - Air NZ picks Boeing for wide-body order

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:20 am

BBJ777X wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
wangjm777 wrote:
This could be the end of the A350 program. The ER version of 787-10 has a range of about 7600 nmi but burns at least 10% less than A350-900. Really impressive.

Are you posting from a coffee shop in Amsterdam? This kind of flamebait silliness degrades any thread in which it appears.


I mean... now that the 6t MTOW increase on both 789 and 781 is confirmed.. MTOW increase and weight reduction put 781 into the 7000 nmi - 7600 nmi territory. 781 is a serious 77E replacement now. A350 needs a major improvement, otherwise what advantage does it have? 781 has major fuel burn advantage....


If the 6T MTOW increase is confirmed, that means a 500nm range increase so 6900-7000nm still air max range. So yes, it equals payload-range capability of 77E. But to be honest, the main advantage of this MTOW increase (if confirmed) would be the MZFW range increase and significant more cargo up to 5500nm, which is the target range of 78J and majority of the widebody flights operate.

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