Boof02671
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 1:40 pm

Antarius wrote:
Still waiting for an answer on how a fleet with an average age of 3 odd years suddenly and coincidentally starts having extreme MX issues and delays.

*crickets*

The fleet at AA is 10.8 years.

Guess you forgot about the battery issue on the brand new 787s?
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 1:42 pm

UpNAWAy wrote:
They just hired 350 Mechanics, increased part supplies significantly and they have bought in all kinds of new equipment what are you talking about?

They haven’t hired 350, they plan on hiring them, big difference.
 
Antarius
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 1:46 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Still waiting for an answer on how a fleet with an average age of 3 odd years suddenly and coincidentally starts having extreme MX issues and delays.

*crickets*

The fleet at AA is 10.8 years.

Guess you forgot about the battery issue on the brand new 787s?


ahahahahahahahahaha.

The long resolved battery issue is how suddenly 2.4 year old 787s conveniently break down repeatedly at negotiation time. (and I'm referring to the 77W and 787s for age). What next - shall we talk about the AF a332 pitot tube issues?

You've played your hand pretty clearly; almost too obviously.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD MEL DEN BLR MAA DEL KTM YYZ MEX
 
ozark1
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 2:02 pm

Chemist wrote:
I remember a number of years ago when the pilots were slowing down, we left the gate in Aruba and took 30 minutes to taxi to the runway at a near-deserted airport. The pilot(s) were riding the brakes, even at engine idle, the entire time. We crawled to the runway. It pissed me off. Just another reason to not fly AA, and I'm a million miler.

You are a million miler on an airline you can’t stand? That must be torture for you. Slowdowns happen from time to time as a protest from any unionized workgroup in contract negotiations at any carrier. I have been on a flight where some tape just needed to be put over a trash can container with no can. 3 minutes to tape it up, 30 minutes to write it up. I do recall the pilots slowdown years ago but I honestly haven’t witnessed anything deliberate until now. It’s a shame, an embarrassment, and a great incentive for me to retire next year!
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 2:14 pm

Antarius wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Still waiting for an answer on how a fleet with an average age of 3 odd years suddenly and coincidentally starts having extreme MX issues and delays.

*crickets*

The fleet at AA is 10.8 years.

Guess you forgot about the battery issue on the brand new 787s?


ahahahahahahahahaha.

The long resolved battery issue is how suddenly 2.4 year old 787s conveniently break down repeatedly at negotiation time. (and I'm referring to the 77W and 787s for age). What next - shall we talk about the AF a332 pitot tube issues?

You've played your hand pretty clearly; almost too obviously.

Planes have thousands of components they break, it happens all the time. Ever buy a new car and have things break? Recalls? I’ve been in aircraft maintenance for over 20 years it happens.

How does a A319 fresh from overhaul by ST MAE in BFM make three emergency landings right out of overhaul?
 
Antarius
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 2:23 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
The fleet at AA is 10.8 years.

Guess you forgot about the battery issue on the brand new 787s?


ahahahahahahahahaha.

The long resolved battery issue is how suddenly 2.4 year old 787s conveniently break down repeatedly at negotiation time. (and I'm referring to the 77W and 787s for age). What next - shall we talk about the AF a332 pitot tube issues?

You've played your hand pretty clearly; almost too obviously.

Planes have thousands of components they break, it happens all the time. Ever buy a new car and have things break? Recalls? I’ve been in aircraft maintenance for over 20 years it happens.

How does a A319 fresh from overhaul by ST MAE in BFM make three emergency landings right out of overhaul?


Stuff does break. The issue is not whether machines break, but how many. The a319 example is irrelevant, unless many overhauls of the same type or at the same place start having issues.

None of this explains the MX delays on the widebody fleet all of a sudden.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD MEL DEN BLR MAA DEL KTM YYZ MEX
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 2:27 pm

Read the paperwork, AA is increasing usage, less time for scheduled maintenance.
 
Antarius
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 2:42 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Read the paperwork, AA is increasing usage, less time for scheduled maintenance.


Their aircraft sit on the ground for 12 hours a day at EZE, GIG, GRU, SCL etc. Their fleet utilization is not some unheard of high number.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD MEL DEN BLR MAA DEL KTM YYZ MEX
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 3:04 pm

Antarius wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Read the paperwork, AA is increasing usage, less time for scheduled maintenance.


Their aircraft sit on the ground for 12 hours a day at EZE, GIG, GRU, SCL etc. Their fleet utilization is not some unheard of high number.

Four planes, not the whole fleet. SMH. And work is only performed at one of those stations. Planes break, lack of parts, bad parts out of stock.

So are you saying a mechanic should not follow the Maintenance manual?
Last edited by Boof02671 on Tue May 21, 2019 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 3:06 pm

Antarius wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Antarius wrote:

ahahahahahahahahaha.

The long resolved battery issue is how suddenly 2.4 year old 787s conveniently break down repeatedly at negotiation time. (and I'm referring to the 77W and 787s for age). What next - shall we talk about the AF a332 pitot tube issues?

You've played your hand pretty clearly; almost too obviously.

Planes have thousands of components they break, it happens all the time. Ever buy a new car and have things break? Recalls? I’ve been in aircraft maintenance for over 20 years it happens.

How does a A319 fresh from overhaul by ST MAE in BFM make three emergency landings right out of overhaul?


Stuff does break. The issue is not whether machines break, but how many. The a319 example is irrelevant, unless many overhauls of the same type or at the same place start having issues.

None of this explains the MX delays on the widebody fleet all of a sudden.

It’s very relevant, most planes that come back from a vendor needs rework.

Guess you forgot about the 14 738s that were grounded due to shoddy work from a vendor.
 
Antarius
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 3:09 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Read the paperwork, AA is increasing usage, less time for scheduled maintenance.


Their aircraft sit on the ground for 12 hours a day at EZE, GIG, GRU, SCL etc. Their fleet utilization is not some unheard of high number.

Four planes, not the whole fleet. SMH.


Now you're being dense on purpose.

1. It is more than 4 planes. GRU has 2 flights from MIA, 1 from DFW, 1 from JFK alone.
2. They rotate aircraft. it isn't the same ones that sit there daily.

In summary, AA does not have an industry leading widebody utilization. So, waiting to hear whats's next. You're on to debunked reason number 3 next.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD MEL DEN BLR MAA DEL KTM YYZ MEX
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 3:24 pm

AA has stated in their motion high utilization leads to less ground time and the SA bases AMTS are less than stellar one posted on Facebook AMT group where does he look up a repair procedure.

You dont work here. I do.
 
apodino
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 3:50 pm

Antarius wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Antarius wrote:

Their aircraft sit on the ground for 12 hours a day at EZE, GIG, GRU, SCL etc. Their fleet utilization is not some unheard of high number.

Four planes, not the whole fleet. SMH.


Now you're being dense on purpose.

1. It is more than 4 planes. GRU has 2 flights from MIA, 1 from DFW, 1 from JFK alone.
2. They rotate aircraft. it isn't the same ones that sit there daily.

In summary, AA does not have an industry leading widebody utilization. So, waiting to hear whats's next. You're on to debunked reason number 3 next.

I am gonna raise the bs flag here. What you are saying here is the reason that AA built the hangar in GRU. But one thing you forget is the widebody usage to Asia and Europe. The A330 fleet in particular is a very highly utilized fleet which doesn't even go to south America. Often times the way the 777 fleet is routed some 777s will not touch South America for days, and neither will some 787s. And one problem that arises with South America is because of the downtime in South America, many of the parts for the fleets are dedicated to there, leaving AA to do things like borrow 787 parts from UA in ORD and LAX.

The 767 fleet I will admit is not as utilized as the other types, but it is necessary due to the unreliability of the type.


On the injunction. I read the lawsuit. The company may have a case with road trips and possibly overtime. As for the MELs and the AC being ready at start up, they have no case at all. The way the narrowbody fleet is utilized, there is simply no time to work an MEL before its due, and as been mentioned, base mechanics aren't even scheduled to look at airplanes overnight unless its part of another check, which means they cant do things like MELs and stuff like that. Parts have been a big problem as well. Another factor not mentioned in the lawsuit has been DFW weather. DFW this year has already had a few weather events, meaning airplanes don't get to hubs in time, so they have to go out of service when the finally get to the hub.

I think the courts will rule in the companies favor on this based on past precedent but the union will not take this lying down.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 4:10 pm

Our contract doesn’t have mandatory overtime. We aren’t slaves.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 4:14 pm

Once again, are you telling us we shouldn’t work IAW with the established job cards and maintenance manual and procedures?
 
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Rajahdhani
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 4:19 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Who said they are?

Companies find ways to streamline operations with fewer people all the time without farming out the work; a famous case of this was when EA began using powerbacks to move aircraft off the gate instead of relying on highly-paid mechanics to drive pushback tractors. The mechanics didn't lose their jobs, but EA needed to hire fewer of them in the future, and the union threw a hissyfit. IAM chief Charlie Bryan even went as far as to stand in back of an EA aircraft conducting a pushback test in an attempt to stop the test from taking place.


I'm not going to endorse your entire train of thought, but to add to context - let's consider how soured Union relations, and EA - ultimately concluded.

Let's set the stage - and see if any parallels come up.

For sourcing, here's an NY times article that will serve as the spine of the argument: https://www.nytimes.com/1991/01/20/us/eastern-airlines-brought-down-by-a-strike-so-bitter-it-became-a-crusade.html

https://www.nytimes.com/1991/01/20/us/eastern-airlines-brought-down-by-a-strike-so-bitter-it-became-a-crusade.html"The hatred and passions stirred by the long strike of the International Assocation of Machinists and Aerospace Workers lie at the heart of why Eastern was forced to park its 190 planes and begin selling its assets."


A familiar name...

https://www.nytimes.com/1991/01/20/us/eastern-airlines-brought-down-by-a-strike-so-bitter-it-became-a-crusade.htmlCertainly, other pressures weakened Eastern over the years, notably the competition brought by deregulation. When the Government began in 1979 to allow airlines to fly wherever they wanted, loosened the rules on fares and made it easy for new airlines to enter the business, upstart rivals like People Express and Air Florida forced Eastern to charge fares that did not cover its costs.


Deregulation then might have similar consequences to modern LCC intrusion - in perhaps many of the same ways. Who know how much of AA's core assets are currently strained by B6's presence, currently depressed 'Crown Jewel' routes to South America et al, all slightly contributing to weakened potential profits compared to competitors who are gaining . I am not wishing to imply that the airline in unhealthy, however, labour pains at this length are hopefully not the remnants of not properly dealing with the 'new reality' of AA having not only to compete against DL, and UA, but also - in many cases, and increasingly - against B6, WN and AS.

https://www.nytimes.com/1991/01/20/us/eastern-airlines-brought-down-by-a-strike-so-bitter-it-became-a-crusade.htmlThose problems were compounded when the management at the time, led by Frank Borman, miscalculated and ordered a large number of planes, loading the company with debt when most other carriers were more appropriately cautious.

Umm. Tonnes of A32Xs coming on, and then we have the MAXs (sitting idle, and badly needed), and the 787s (and potential issues) and the 777s. It was a valid calculation - get a newer, more fuel efficient fleet - and that they are doing. However, they were last to the merger party - and unlike their rivals - UA, and DL - have been the most liberal when it comes to ordering and core fleet changes. Impressive, and as necessary as long as the market remains stable, which foreshadows to;

[url]And the final blow for Eastern probably came in August, when the price of aviation fuel surged after the Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, greatly increasing operating costs and making it impossible for Eastern to get a grip on its debts.[/url]https://www.nytimes.com/1991/01/20/us/eastern-airlines-brought-down-by-a-strike-so-bitter-it-became-a-crusade.html

Umm. No parallels that I can think of (don't check twitter).

The rest of the article is a great read - and does not fail to demonstrate how demonstratively dirty the entire affair became. Though no two examples are perfect pairs - and by no means am I suggesting that we will have to go down that route once more, but - it's an interest read.
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 4:25 pm

Oh by the way CLT has one of the largest distribution centers on the system and we have a parts shortage. Stock Clerks are meeting 30 flights a day to get parts so we can fix planes
 
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spinotter
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 4:28 pm

SierraPacific wrote:
How about Management negotiates a fair contract that satisfies both parties instead of filing a lawsuit against the people that fix your planes? Obviously whatever contract they have proposed is not good enough to satisfy the other party so negotiations must continue.

I forgot this is America where the employees take it with no way to fight back while the CEO and the board makes tens of millions a year then bailout of a doomed company with a golden parachute.


You are right. I admire the AF employees who take to the runway! But what is fair? A very hard question to answer.

In my mind it would be perfect equality for every human being. So much strife and hatred would be eliminated, and we would be a better race. But obviously something in our DNA does not allow this to happen. It is, however, very worrisome to me to calculate the share of our total resources which have been concentrated in the hands of a very few. Hoarders. Unions won't solve the problem. Only a revolution in our minds and hearts. Not for a few years.
 
slvrblt
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 4:34 pm

usairways787 wrote:
Nobody is slowing down. This is pure bullshit*t by spoiled executive leadership. The operation is falling apart. Piece by piece. No equipment, no man power. Wtf do you want us to do?


Partly true; the 'no equipment, no man power part is probably valid. Management does it to us too. Worn out computers and printers, 1980's America West check-in system. Bare bones manning to start with; then when someone calls out sick or even those on vacation, they are usually not replaced, and you just work short. However, I know MX is causing some delays and cancellations on purpose. I work in the operation, I know what I see and what I hear, what the flight crews say about the delays and cancellations. FYI to maintenance - customers have little or no sympathy for these kind of 19th and 20th century tactics that disrupt their lives and business plans. Customers pay your salary, you would do well to remember that. (Charlie Bryan won his fight,but lost the war.)

But -- I agree AA is so badly managed now.......I feel we're going backward most of the time. Everything is on the cheap, no one seems to know what is going on, or be able to make a decision. All hell has to be breaking loose before anyone does anything. Very sad, this is not the same company I was once proud to work for. I hate it that the "AA" name is still used. They should have kept it USAirways because that would suit their quality and style. Cheap.

Retirement is 2 years away, it can't come soon enough.
..everything works out in the end.
 
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 4:35 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
Our contract doesn’t have mandatory overtime. We aren’t slaves.


Why are you above that when the operation requires it? The IAM contract at AS for clerical, office, and passenger service (COPS) employees does include mandatory OT language which is put into effect when extreme operational needs occur, yet I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a single employee who considers themselves a "slave" as a result.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 4:35 pm

 
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 4:40 pm

spinotter wrote:
It is, however, very worrisome to me to calculate the share of our total resources which have been concentrated in the hands of a very few. Hoarders. Unions won't solve the problem. Only a revolution in our minds and hearts. Not for a few years.


Gosh, where have I heard this before...give me a moment, it'll come to me...

Image
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 4:42 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Our contract doesn’t have mandatory overtime. We aren’t slaves.


Why are you above that when the operation requires it? The IAM contract at AS for clerical, office, and passenger service (COPS) employees does include mandatory OT language which is put into effect when extreme operational needs occur, yet I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a single employee who considers themselves a "slave" as a result.

This isn’t AS, this is AA no mandatory OT if I don’t want to work extra hours I don’t have too.

That too hard to comprehend?
 
Antarius
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 4:43 pm

apodino wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Four planes, not the whole fleet. SMH.


Now you're being dense on purpose.

1. It is more than 4 planes. GRU has 2 flights from MIA, 1 from DFW, 1 from JFK alone.
2. They rotate aircraft. it isn't the same ones that sit there daily.

In summary, AA does not have an industry leading widebody utilization. So, waiting to hear whats's next. You're on to debunked reason number 3 next.

I am gonna raise the bs flag here. What you are saying here is the reason that AA built the hangar in GRU. But one thing you forget is the widebody usage to Asia and Europe. The A330 fleet in particular is a very highly utilized fleet which doesn't even go to south America. Often times the way the 777 fleet is routed some 777s will not touch South America for days, and neither will some 787s. And one problem that arises with South America is because of the downtime in South America, many of the parts for the fleets are dedicated to there, leaving AA to do things like borrow 787 parts from UA in ORD and LAX.

The 767 fleet I will admit is not as utilized as the other types, but it is necessary due to the unreliability of the type.


On the injunction. I read the lawsuit. The company may have a case with road trips and possibly overtime. As for the MELs and the AC being ready at start up, they have no case at all. The way the narrowbody fleet is utilized, there is simply no time to work an MEL before its due, and as been mentioned, base mechanics aren't even scheduled to look at airplanes overnight unless its part of another check, which means they cant do things like MELs and stuff like that. Parts have been a big problem as well. Another factor not mentioned in the lawsuit has been DFW weather. DFW this year has already had a few weather events, meaning airplanes don't get to hubs in time, so they have to go out of service when the finally get to the hub.

I think the courts will rule in the companies favor on this based on past precedent but the union will not take this lying down.


Is the AA widebody fleet utilization uniquely high? No. By virtue of the dominant position of AA in South America, a lot of widebodies are rotated through South America and sit for 12 hours.

So, why is it that now, conveniently in the middle of this fight, that an airline with new planes, lower utilization suddenly starts having absurd delays? I'm a passenger with no dog in the fight. I'm merely reporting on what I can see. And as an informed passenger, you can start to sniff out bullshit delays or feet dragging on minor issues.

Just watch, things will magically return to normal. Seen this before.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD MEL DEN BLR MAA DEL KTM YYZ MEX
 
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 4:49 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Our contract doesn’t have mandatory overtime. We aren’t slaves.


Why are you above that when the operation requires it? The IAM contract at AS for clerical, office, and passenger service (COPS) employees does include mandatory OT language which is put into effect when extreme operational needs occur, yet I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a single employee who considers themselves a "slave" as a result.

This isn’t AS, this is AA no mandatory OT if I don’t want to work extra hours I don’t have too.

That too hard to comprehend?


So let's say I'm AA, and I want mandatory OT language in the contract. Let's negotiate - what do you want in exchange for that language?

Or are you saying that now and forever, you're too good to ever be required to help the operation in times of extreme, unprecedented need?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
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spinotter
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 5:00 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
spinotter wrote:
It is, however, very worrisome to me to calculate the share of our total resources which have been concentrated in the hands of a very few. Hoarders. Unions won't solve the problem. Only a revolution in our minds and hearts. Not for a few years.


Gosh, where have I heard this before...give me a moment, it'll come to me...

Image


And a great man he was, but I think he placed too much emphasis on violent revolution and class conflict. He has put the demon of fear into every capitalist since, because they know instinctively that an equal share is the best way. But I will tell you something. Once when I was around twenty years old, I enunciated my communist ideology to my mother. She replied, "Tim, that will never work." So I thought, if even my mother will not hear my theory, what chance is there that anyone else might be convinced? Still, I think that this is perhaps the main defect of the human race. You see ants and bees? They divide equally. And why are people so afraid of AOC? Same reason. It's there within all of us, but our selfishness wins out.
 
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 5:04 pm

spinotter wrote:
And a great man he was


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Yeah, we'll just leave it at that.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 5:15 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Our contract doesn’t have mandatory overtime. We aren’t slaves.


Why are you above that when the operation requires it? The IAM contract at AS for clerical, office, and passenger service (COPS) employees does include mandatory OT language which is put into effect when extreme operational needs occur, yet I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a single employee who considers themselves a "slave" as a result.

This isn’t AS, this is AA no mandatory OT if I don’t want to work extra hours I don’t have too.

That too hard to comprehend?
 
Boof02671
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 5:29 pm

Once again, are you wanting mechanics not to IAW, maintenance manuals, job cards, and policy and procedures? All of which are an agreement and approved procedures between AA, the manufacturer Lus and the FAA.
 
Chemist
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 5:52 pm

ozark1 wrote:
Chemist wrote:
I remember a number of years ago when the pilots were slowing down, we left the gate in Aruba and took 30 minutes to taxi to the runway at a near-deserted airport. The pilot(s) were riding the brakes, even at engine idle, the entire time. We crawled to the runway. It pissed me off. Just another reason to not fly AA, and I'm a million miler.

You are a million miler on an airline you can’t stand? That must be torture for you. Slowdowns happen from time to time as a protest from any unionized workgroup in contract negotiations at any carrier. I have been on a flight where some tape just needed to be put over a trash can container with no can. 3 minutes to tape it up, 30 minutes to write it up. I do recall the pilots slowdown years ago but I honestly haven’t witnessed anything deliberate until now. It’s a shame, an embarrassment, and a great incentive for me to retire next year!


I'm a million miler due to what AA used to be.
Slowdowns are fine, but if it affects me as a customer, don't be mad if I take my business elsewhere. Why cant the unions protest in a way that doesn't affect the customers? Yes, it does piss me off. I'm not going to support that.
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2041
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 5:54 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Show me a robot that can climb into a bin and stack bags.


From one who works in the automotive sector: be careful what you ask for. They do exist. The technology may be too expensive (or fragile for the ramp environment) right now, but so is paying a ramper $200,000/yr (incl. benes) to throw bags. At some point, automation will take over some of the bag loading. How much...depends on the ROI, but as humans get more expensive and robots less expensive...just ask the UAW how it goes.

No ramper makes $200,000 a year. The average with benefits for a topped ramper at AA is $69,000.

Stop with the misinformation.


Dead Wrong. Allow me to educate.

That’s salary only and does not include benefits (medical, dental, vision, pension, paid time off, sick time, unemployment tax, fed/state taxes, social security, etc). To include benefits you’d need to multiply salary by 2.5-3x. If your number was all included the average salary would be around $25-28K a year which we all know it isn’t.

There are most definitely rampers that cost the company more than $200K/yr.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
Chemist
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 5:57 pm

Chemist wrote:
ozark1 wrote:
Chemist wrote:
I remember a number of years ago when the pilots were slowing down, we left the gate in Aruba and took 30 minutes to taxi to the runway at a near-deserted airport. The pilot(s) were riding the brakes, even at engine idle, the entire time. We crawled to the runway. It pissed me off. Just another reason to not fly AA, and I'm a million miler.

You are a million miler on an airline you can’t stand? That must be torture for you. Slowdowns happen from time to time as a protest from any unionized workgroup in contract negotiations at any carrier. I have been on a flight where some tape just needed to be put over a trash can container with no can. 3 minutes to tape it up, 30 minutes to write it up. I do recall the pilots slowdown years ago but I honestly haven’t witnessed anything deliberate until now. It’s a shame, an embarrassment, and a great incentive for me to retire next year!


I'm a million miler due to what AA used to be.
Slowdowns are fine, but if it affects me as a customer, don't be mad if I take my business elsewhere. Why cant the unions protest in a way that doesn't affect the customers? Yes, it does piss me off, because I got to ride a 30 minute taxi at a deserted airport with repeated brake application for 30 minutes - all so some pilots could express their disatisfaction with their job and employer. That's pretty selfish, how would you like to wait 30 minutes while I complain about my employer? I'm not going to support that.
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 6:05 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
The IAMNPF is not exclusive to AA, it’s a multi-employer plan.


Is that supposed to be comforting? So now some other large company could go BK and dump their pensions?

The IAM isn’t exactly a diverse outfit. If one of those companies go BK (again) it’s likely there will be others.

Give me the equivalent in a 401K that’s controlled by me and not held hostage to management or union politics.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 6:17 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:

From one who works in the automotive sector: be careful what you ask for. They do exist. The technology may be too expensive (or fragile for the ramp environment) right now, but so is paying a ramper $200,000/yr (incl. benes) to throw bags. At some point, automation will take over some of the bag loading. How much...depends on the ROI, but as humans get more expensive and robots less expensive...just ask the UAW how it goes.

No ramper makes $200,000 a year. The average with benefits for a topped ramper at AA is $69,000.

Stop with the misinformation.


Dead Wrong. Allow me to educate.

That’s salary only and does not include benefits (medical, dental, vision, pension, paid time off, sick time, unemployment tax, fed/state taxes, social security, etc). To include benefits you’d need to multiply salary by 2.5-3x. If your number was all included the average salary would be around $25-28K a year which we all know it isn’t.

There are most definitely rampers that cost the company more than $200K/yr.


So what is your solution to that? Cut their vision insurance or maybe cut their sick time to the absolute bare minimum that the feds and state governments will allow? These guys do a hard job that is thankless and then stabbing them in the back by cutting their benefits that they have had is a pretty crappy move

Has any upper-level management ever taken a cut? I personally really doubt it especially with a guy that couldn't get hired as a ramper running the company and refuses to lead the company.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 484
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 6:58 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:

From one who works in the automotive sector: be careful what you ask for. They do exist. The technology may be too expensive (or fragile for the ramp environment) right now, but so is paying a ramper $200,000/yr (incl. benes) to throw bags. At some point, automation will take over some of the bag loading. How much...depends on the ROI, but as humans get more expensive and robots less expensive...just ask the UAW how it goes.

No ramper makes $200,000 a year. The average with benefits for a topped ramper at AA is $69,000.

Stop with the misinformation.


Dead Wrong. Allow me to educate.

That’s salary only and does not include benefits (medical, dental, vision, pension, paid time off, sick time, unemployment tax, fed/state taxes, social security, etc). To include benefits you’d need to multiply salary by 2.5-3x. If your number was all included the average salary would be around $25-28K a year which we all know it isn’t.

There are most definitely rampers that cost the company more than $200K/yr.

You need to go back to whoever told you the cost of hiring an employee was 2.5-3x their salary and slap them for telling you that utter nonsense. Including benefits, the costs of employing someone are usually 1.25 to 1.5 times base salary.
 
Boof02671
Topic Author
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 7:15 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:

From one who works in the automotive sector: be careful what you ask for. They do exist. The technology may be too expensive (or fragile for the ramp environment) right now, but so is paying a ramper $200,000/yr (incl. benes) to throw bags. At some point, automation will take over some of the bag loading. How much...depends on the ROI, but as humans get more expensive and robots less expensive...just ask the UAW how it goes.

No ramper makes $200,000 a year. The average with benefits for a topped ramper at AA is $69,000.

Stop with the misinformation.


Dead Wrong. Allow me to educate.

That’s salary only and does not include benefits (medical, dental, vision, pension, paid time off, sick time, unemployment tax, fed/state taxes, social security, etc). To include benefits you’d need to multiply salary by 2.5-3x. If your number was all included the average salary would be around $25-28K a year which we all know it isn’t.

There are most definitely rampers that cost the company more than $200K/yr.

Wrong go to the MIT airline data you are 100% wrong.
 
Boof02671
Topic Author
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 7:21 pm

RDUDDJI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
The IAMNPF is not exclusive to AA, it’s a multi-employer plan.


Is that supposed to be comforting? So now some other large company could go BK and dump their pensions?

The IAM isn’t exactly a diverse outfit. If one of those companies go BK (again) it’s likely there will be others.

Give me the equivalent in a 401K that’s controlled by me and not held hostage to management or union politics.

You don’t know what you are talking about. The IAM has 600,000 members In numerous industries from airlines , woodworkers, NASA and hundreds of others.

An airline or company going bankrupt can’t dump a multi employee plan.
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 7:26 pm

Brickell305 wrote:
You need to go back to whoever told you the cost of hiring an employee was 2.5-3x their salary and slap them for telling you that utter nonsense. Including benefits, the costs of employing someone are usually 1.25 to 1.5 times base salary.


That would the the EVP of HR at a Fortune 200 company (not airline or union related). I was at a presentation where they showed this and then went on to explain those numbers. But you feel free to believe your union buddies, I'm sure they'd never give you misinformation to support their cause....smh
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
RDUDDJI
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 7:33 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
RDUDDJI wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
No ramper makes $200,000 a year. The average with benefits for a topped ramper at AA is $69,000.

Stop with the misinformation.


Dead Wrong. Allow me to educate.

That’s salary only and does not include benefits (medical, dental, vision, pension, paid time off, sick time, unemployment tax, fed/state taxes, social security, etc). To include benefits you’d need to multiply salary by 2.5-3x. If your number was all included the average salary would be around $25-28K a year which we all know it isn’t.

There are most definitely rampers that cost the company more than $200K/yr.

Wrong go to the MIT airline data you are 100% wrong.


Hate to go all Captain obvious on you, but it would be 100% impossible for me to be 100% wrong. Unless you work for a company that doesn't pay it's taxes or any benes... However, I do love the irony of mentioning MIT and failing at basic math in the same sentence... Next time just post a link.
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
Boof02671
Topic Author
Posts: 1317
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 7:40 pm

Google it, it’s out there. Provide proof to your dollar claim?
 
Boof02671
Topic Author
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 7:41 pm

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2017 ... alysis.htm

Average for AA in 2017 was $53,438 and $19,484 for taxes etc far short of you $200k claim.

And they haven’t gotten raises since 2016.

Game, set and match.
 
Boof02671
Topic Author
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 7:55 pm

And talking to my friends on the ramp a current ramp employee all in is around $75,000 at the moment.
 
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Super80Fan
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 7:57 pm

I really do feel bad for the mechanics but I can't tell you the number of times we have landed on time only to wait at our gate for 10-20 minutes because the ground crew aren't out there yet, and this isn't even a bustling hub like DFW or ATL, this is at smaller outstations (who are not third party companies but are hired by Piedmont or DGS).

Can't say I'll feel bad when that job gets automated.
RIP McDonnell Douglas
 
RDUDDJI
Posts: 2041
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 8:02 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
You don’t know what you are talking about. The IAM has 600,000 members In numerous industries from airlines , woodworkers, NASA and hundreds of others.


....and the vast majority of them are entry level, manual jobs, that will be replaced by automation in the future. The more expensive labor is for the company, the easier it is to justify an alternative. Take a look at Union membership by decade. It's far from a "growth" industry. With all that uncertainty, I wouldn't put any money anywhere near that.

Boof02671 wrote:
An airline or company going bankrupt can’t dump a multi employee plan.


Of course it can, if multiple ones fail. I suggest you take a high school level economics course, or just google: AIG. Too big to fail, eh? I freely admit that the chances of an airline going BK are extremely low as is the chance of just about any other business going BK. I was was merely pointing out the shortsightedness of letting a business control your retirement funds. Risk is low, but it's there unlike a 401k. A 401K is 100% YOUR money. You'd really rather have someone else (a business) hold/manage your retirement?

If the union were smart, they'd nego a huge 401K contribution (more than what the pension is getting) from AA and give up the pension fight. That would be a win for both sides. Fight your battles on other fronts (like pay).
Sometimes we don't realize the good times when we're in them
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 8:08 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
Our contract doesn’t have mandatory overtime. We aren’t slaves.


Why are you above that when the operation requires it? The IAM contract at AS for clerical, office, and passenger service (COPS) employees does include mandatory OT language which is put into effect when extreme operational needs occur, yet I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a single employee who considers themselves a "slave" as a result.

This isn’t AS, this is AA no mandatory OT if I don’t want to work extra hours I don’t have too.

That too hard to comprehend?


So, again, let's say I'm AA, and I want mandatory OT language in the contract. Let's negotiate - what do you want in exchange for that language?

Or are you saying that now and forever, you're too good to ever be required to help the operation in times of extreme, unprecedented need?
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
Boof02671
Topic Author
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 8:09 pm

They already proposed a 10% contribution in lieu of the IAMNPF.

I see you totally ignored how wrong you are on the $200,000 figure. Where is your proof of it?

See if you worked here you would know these things.
 
Boof02671
Topic Author
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 8:10 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Boof02671 wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:

Why are you above that when the operation requires it? The IAM contract at AS for clerical, office, and passenger service (COPS) employees does include mandatory OT language which is put into effect when extreme operational needs occur, yet I think you'd be hard-pressed to find a single employee who considers themselves a "slave" as a result.

This isn’t AS, this is AA no mandatory OT if I don’t want to work extra hours I don’t have too.

That too hard to comprehend?


So, again, let's say I'm AA, and I want mandatory OT language in the contract. Let's negotiate - what do you want in exchange for that language?

Or are you saying that now and forever, you're too good to ever be required to help the operation in times of extreme, unprecedented need?

Can’t buy us since 1949 the IAM hasn’t had mandatory OT in our contract
 
Boof02671
Topic Author
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 8:10 pm

They want concessions from us, sorry do my 8 and hit the gate.
 
Antarius
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 8:34 pm

Reviewing the MIT Airline data project, AA has the lowest average widebody utilization out of the US3. Granted, this is 2017 data, but AA hasn't changed their route network so drastically since then - they still have an above average number sitting in deep South America for 12 hours a day.

http://web.mit.edu/airlinedata/www/2017 ... 0Fleet.htm

So, how has their MX issues suddenly and magically increased recently? I've heard a lot of easily debunked reasons that are not backed up by data.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD MEL DEN BLR MAA DEL KTM YYZ MEX
 
Boof02671
Topic Author
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Re: AA sues IAM-TWU Association over alleged slowdown

Tue May 21, 2019 8:44 pm

Did you not read the motion?

AA stated higher increases in aircraft utilization has led to less scheduled time to achieve maintenance. And this is the time of year AA increases seasonal widebody usage and flights.

And AA has increased their European flights since 2017.

And narrowbody usage has increased to make up for the grounding of the Max fleet and AA had 14 738s out of service for an extended period of time due to shoddy work by vendors who did the Oasis Mods and MD 80s being retired.

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