Babyshark
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Thu May 30, 2019 12:48 am

SteelChair wrote:
Babyshark wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Listen: given DL catastrophic financial results, dramatic ratings among employees and customers, they obviously have no flipping clue as to what they're doing and will soon be put out of misery, so it doesn't matter. :roll: :roll: :roll:


Listen. They f up too. Do it more than you know. Thankfully. But they do. With Delta, having worked here for 13 years and working on and off the 4th floor, they f up. And we can spend a lot of money fixing those issues. A lot.

But whatever Delta does, if its in a press release or a quarterly call, it's the most brilliant thing ever. And a year or so later when its quietly phased out they have no shame with proclaiming the exact opposite is the most brilliant thing ever. They are prone to impulsive decisions driven by personalities and not analysis. Some have been in the news, you just don't realize it. You are not there when the fix it emails land in the emails. We have dismissed people over mistakes too, big people.

We have a mess we need to clean up from years ago, the 220 isn't the fix but we're being forced to do it because we didn't order the A320Ns when we should have. The A220 is no miracle. Its an absolute frustration for many of us.


I personally doubt that A320N's will ever be ordered by your employer.


Probably not, because Airbus has no trouble selling them.
 
VV
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Thu May 30, 2019 11:54 am

Will airlines defer deliveries and wait until the "improved "version is available?

After all the delivery rate is still so slow.
 
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keesje
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Thu May 30, 2019 8:20 pm

VV wrote:
Will airlines defer deliveries and wait until the "improved "version is available?

After all the delivery rate is still so slow.


Nobody needs the range really.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
wrongwayup
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Thu May 30, 2019 10:02 pm

keesje wrote:

Nobody needs the range really.


I think once airlines start realizing the markets a transcon-capable, mainland-Hawaii capable, US-Brazil capable, AKL-PER capable, Europe-ME3-SE Asia capable, 100-seat category aircraft with next generation economics and passenger comfort will mean in terms of new market potential, I think they'll find ways to use the range.

No one "needed" a 787 with a third more range than the 767 until they realized in network effect terms what it could do for them.
 
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keesje
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Thu May 30, 2019 10:24 pm

wrongwayup wrote:
keesje wrote:

Nobody needs the range really.


I think once airlines start realizing the markets a transcon-capable, mainland-Hawaii capable, US-Brazil capable, AKL-PER capable, Europe-ME3-SE Asia capable, 100-seat category aircraft with next generation economics and passenger comfort will mean in terms of new market potential, I think they'll find ways to use the range.

No one "needed" a 787 with a third more range than the 767 until they realized in network effect terms what it could do for them.


I think the 787 had very similar capabilities as the 1000 A330/340s entering service before. Do you know how many routes it opened up in the last 5 years, the 767? Marketing..

6-7 Hour flights with a 100-150 seat aircraft seem a miniscule niche market.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
SteelChair
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Fri May 31, 2019 3:30 am

Babyshark wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Babyshark wrote:

Listen. They f up too. Do it more than you know. Thankfully. But they do. With Delta, having worked here for 13 years and working on and off the 4th floor, they f up. And we can spend a lot of money fixing those issues. A lot.

But whatever Delta does, if its in a press release or a quarterly call, it's the most brilliant thing ever. And a year or so later when its quietly phased out they have no shame with proclaiming the exact opposite is the most brilliant thing ever. They are prone to impulsive decisions driven by personalities and not analysis. Some have been in the news, you just don't realize it. You are not there when the fix it emails land in the emails. We have dismissed people over mistakes too, big people.

We have a mess we need to clean up from years ago, the 220 isn't the fix but we're being forced to do it because we didn't order the A320Ns when we should have. The A220 is no miracle. Its an absolute frustration for many of us.


I personally doubt that A320N's will ever be ordered by your employer.


Probably not, because Airbus has no trouble selling them.


Which is apropos of nothing. They've sold exactly zero to your employer while selling 100 and optioning 100 321 N's to that company
 
Amiga500
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Fri May 31, 2019 8:55 am

VV wrote:
Will airlines defer deliveries and wait until the "improved "version is available?

After all the delivery rate is still so slow.


The improvement is mostly an exercise in "sharpening a few pencils" and adjusting the paperwork to reflect that.

While they might not apply to the first ~20-40 airframes due to the mods phased in over that time, everything coming off the line now should be capable of meeting the MTOW improvement.

Now, if an airline wants said paperwork (for either current delivery slot or deferred delivery slot), they might have to pay a few more quid for it.
 
VV
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Fri May 31, 2019 10:04 am

Amiga500 wrote:
VV wrote:
Will airlines defer deliveries and wait until the "improved "version is available?

After all the delivery rate is still so slow.


The improvement is mostly an exercise in "sharpening a few pencils" and adjusting the paperwork to reflect that.

While they might not apply to the first ~20-40 airframes due to the mods phased in over that time, everything coming off the line now should be capable of meeting the MTOW improvement.

Now, if an airline wants said paperwork (for either current delivery slot or deferred delivery slot), they might have to pay a few more quid for it.


If it is only paperwork and it can be applied to any airframe retroactively then it should be okay.

But if I were an airline, I would like to protect the market value, just in case a future buyer might ask for the higher MTOW version. So, if it is not available for an aircraft delivered before a certain date then some airlines would nitpick to get some kind of incentive to not defer the delivery.

There's nothing technical there it is just about extorting some money from the aircraft manufacturer.

By the way, has the market value increased with the high MTOW? I doubt there's any impact.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Fri May 31, 2019 1:29 pm

This "paper" MTOW increase must have cost many millions just in "validation" flight hours (maintenance, crew) plus the costs of updating the software and paperwork. I'm sure Airbus figured the selling price of that "new version" to cover the costs. (And possibly bring additional sales?)

This increased MTOW should be particularly attractive to LCCs - that could use this new combined full load (160 pass) & full fuel capability (as explained by Lightsaber)

But I agree VV, at first glance the value added is definitely not obvious. It might indeed end up as an overkill/distraction away from more usefull improvements - some of which were "postponed" during the big layoff you were part of.
 
VV
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Fri May 31, 2019 3:30 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
This "paper" MTOW increase must have cost many millions just in "validation" flight hours (maintenance, crew) plus the costs of updating the software and paperwork. I'm sure Airbus figured the selling price of that "new version" to cover the costs. (And possibly bring additional sales?)

This increased MTOW should be particularly attractive to LCCs - that could use this new combined full load (160 pass) & full fuel capability (as explained by Lightsaber)

But I agree VV, at first glance the value added is definitely not obvious. It might indeed end up as an overkill/distraction away from more usefull improvements - some of which were "postponed" during the big layoff you were part of.



I am sorry, but it was much more than just "useful improvements". Many basic features, albeit not essential, were left behind.
From personal perspective, the lay off was a blessing in disguise for me. It removed my stress during C Séries development and it forced me to find a more decent job.

When I see the max altitude for take off and landing is still 8,000 ft three years after initial type certification, I understand that things didn't get better after I left Mirabel in 2016. It's sad.

I am afraid the MTOW increase is just a useless stunt. Someone's head must roll.
 
Babyshark
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Fri May 31, 2019 4:01 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Babyshark wrote:
SteelChair wrote:

I personally doubt that A320N's will ever be ordered by your employer.


Probably not, because Airbus has no trouble selling them.


Which is apropos of nothing. They've sold exactly zero to your employer while selling 100 and optioning 100 321 N's to that company



Yeah they got 4100 orders on the 320N, 1000 orders in 2011. We made our order for A321ceos around 2015 and I started flying them in 2016 or so when Airbus probably already had 5000 orders, luckily the 321 was about half the 320.

But not ordering the 320N is, given the constraints a great move for current administration and a problem for future delta... but they’ll be gone by then. But we will have to deal with it and likely deal with what to do with the orphan 220s.

But that’s how we roll. We spent billions of dollars building up Comair and billions tearing it back down. And I don’t even want to go into fuel hedging. We got this.
 
Babyshark
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Fri May 31, 2019 4:05 pm

VV wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:
This "paper" MTOW increase must have cost many millions just in "validation" flight hours (maintenance, crew) plus the costs of updating the software and paperwork. I'm sure Airbus figured the selling price of that "new version" to cover the costs. (And possibly bring additional sales?)

This increased MTOW should be particularly attractive to LCCs - that could use this new combined full load (160 pass) & full fuel capability (as explained by Lightsaber)

But I agree VV, at first glance the value added is definitely not obvious. It might indeed end up as an overkill/distraction away from more usefull improvements - some of which were "postponed" during the big layoff you were part of.



I am sorry, but it was much more than just "useful improvements". Many basic features, albeit not essential, were left behind.
From personal perspective, the lay off was a blessing in disguise for me. It removed my stress during C Séries development and it forced me to find a more decent job.

When I see the max altitude for take off and landing is still 8,000 ft three years after initial type certification, I understand that things didn't get better after I left Mirabel in 2016. It's sad.

I am afraid the MTOW increase is just a useless stunt. Someone's head must roll.


I would still like to know if Airbus spends money on the 220, do they have to share the profits? Given where the order books are for everything including the E2, is it better for Airbus to suffocate the program like Boeing did to the 717?
 
VV
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Fri May 31, 2019 4:27 pm

Babyshark wrote:
I would still like to know if Airbus spends money on the 220, do they have to share the profits? Given where the order books are for everything including the E2, is it better for Airbus to suffocate the program like Boeing did to the 717?


We do not know yet.

According to the agreement announcement, you can read the following.
Bombardier will fund the cash shortfalls of CSALP, if required, during the second half of 2018, up to a maximum of $225 million US; during 2019, up to a maximum of $350 million US; and up to a maximum aggregate amount of $350 million US over the following two years, in consideration for non-voting participating shares of CSALP with cumulative annual dividends of 2%.”

Link: https://www.bombardier.com/en/media/new ... ercom.html

It is unclear if there is a cash shortfall so far. I would guess it is the case because deliveries have been very slow for now, thus Bombardier has to fund the shortfall.
If the shortfall is beyond the limit then Airbus would have to compensate too.

This said, Airbus hired a some former Bombardier employees in Toulouse and in the regional offices. Thus implicitly they are spending some money on the A220, although it is not paid directly to CSALP (Airbus Canada).

As you know according to the agreement, Airbus runs the marketing and sales directly, thus they are spending money on the A220.

It is not sure yet about their intent in the future. I suspect the "help" to the C Series is just to get close to Bombardier-Beaudoin family to reach the political establishment in Quebec City and in Ottawa.

Is that an effort to get some possible defense contracts? I do not know.
 
texl1649
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Fri May 31, 2019 4:36 pm

Airbus is probably being smart to limit sales/marketing costs, while front loading certification/other costs while that is still BBD's tab. I know SSJ has some pressing concerns, but this does seem like a waste of cost to me given Red Wings (government) decision:

https://airlinerwatch.com/airbus-launch ... its-a220s/
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Fri May 31, 2019 5:56 pm

Indeed, “Bombardier will fund the cash shortfalls of CSALP, if required, during the second half of 2018, up to a maximum of $225 million US; during 2019, up to a maximum of $350 million US; and up to a maximum aggregate amount of $350 million US over the following two years" is totally correct.

FWIW, BBD is however obtaining in return equivalent "non voting" preferred shares of the partnership - giving a tiny annual dividends (2 or 3%?).
Non-voting as Airbus wanted to maintain its 50.01% majority control.
 
tphuang
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Fri May 31, 2019 10:54 pm

EMBSPBR wrote:
GmvAfcs wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:
VV wrote:
Why over a 3:1 sales discrepancy?
Aggressive pricing! A220-300 being sold for less than 195-E2, it carries more passengers, than this is a no brainer.


People do not seem to want to glimpse the obvious or have not read my post from number 163 here ...
Where is the 3: 1 ratio ??? What are the real orders that for this proportion to exist ??? By my numbers they are 2: 1.

The amounts paid by Delta to BBD is still an open question.

And for JetBlue, after the heavy hand of Airbus, the answer is: pay a NEO and take an A220 for free ...

Member "VV" is right: they want to compare a program that has dragged on for eleven years with another program that has only five. But wait for news, the game is turning: attention Airbus, Boeing Brasil Commercial has just arrived ...


That is simply not true.

E2 was always the easier and cheaper option for JetBlue. By opting for c series, they had to huge special charges for several quarters for writing down the cost of e90. If they had purchased e2, those e90s can be swapped as part of the purchase. And this has been done in one of the most critical periods where they are facing a lot of Wall Street pressure.

And over the next 5 years, they will face the increased costs of operating 3 different types of aircraft all while facing network wide pressure in coat issues. And believe me, having 3 types will increase their cost. All this would have made e2 the obvious choice.

Now having Airbus come in and offer a321neo slots earlier certainly helped push things in a220 direction, but that's still small compared to the cost of adding new type of aircraft with different type rating. Things that really hurt e2 are the issues b6 had with e90, the fewer number of blue Chip e2 operators and less range compared to a220.

It's hard to see how e2 195 could have lower casm than a220 300, since you always pick the smaller aircraft in that case. But I would say the difference is probably small enough that the higher rasm on the smaller aircraft will make the margins about the same.
 
VV
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:08 am

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
Indeed, “Bombardier will fund the cash shortfalls of CSALP, if required, during the second half of 2018, up to a maximum of $225 million US; during 2019, up to a maximum of $350 million US; and up to a maximum aggregate amount of $350 million US over the following two years" is totally correct.

FWIW, BBD is however obtaining in return equivalent "non voting" preferred shares of the partnership - giving a tiny annual dividends (2 or 3%?).
Non-voting as Airbus wanted to maintain its 50.01% majority control.


Yes.

So, Bombardier's cash flow is still impacted by CSALP (Airbus Canada) operations until the latter generate positive cash flow.
If you consider about 75% of costs are for suppliers and that Mirabel has about 2,000 employees then I estimate Airbus Canada annual spending is about US$ 900 million. They need to deliver at least 40 aircraft annually to break even.

It looks like in 2018 Bombardier injected cash to fund CSALP operations. There are chances it is still the case in 2019. If they achieve about 60 deliveries in 2021 then Airbus Canada will start to have positive cash flow through its operations.
However, higher output also means higher spending.

Anyway, the MTOW increase seems to be part of an effort to contain costs and to accelerate the production. It is not a deliberate "product improvement" because I do not see any usefulness to increase the range beyond what it was six months ago. It simply does not increase its competitiveness or its attractiveness.
 
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Jouhou
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Sat Jun 01, 2019 8:59 am

Babyshark wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Babyshark wrote:

It doesn't have a place, unless you f up and wait too long and its your only option for new nb lift. But DL does strange things with airplanes, it's not always based on math.

But the 220 is not the same type as the 320 fleet. You're adding a separate... everything.

Listen: given DL catastrophic financial results, dramatic ratings among employees and customers, they obviously have no flipping clue as to what they're doing and will soon be put out of misery, so it doesn't matter. :roll: :roll: :roll:


Listen. They f up too. Do it more than you know. Thankfully. But they do. With Delta, having worked here for 13 years and working on and off the 4th floor, they f up. And we can spend a lot of money fixing those issues. A lot.

But whatever Delta does, if its in a press release or a quarterly call, it's the most brilliant thing ever. And a year or so later when its quietly phased out they have no shame with proclaiming the exact opposite is the most brilliant thing ever. They are prone to impulsive decisions driven by personalities and not analysis. Some have been in the news, you just don't realize it. You are not there when the fix it emails land in the emails. We have dismissed people over mistakes too, big people.

We have a mess we need to clean up from years ago, the 220 isn't the fix but we're being forced to do it because we didn't order the A320Ns when we should have. The A220 is no miracle. Its an absolute frustration for many of us.


I think you answered your own question about Lufthansa with your response- there aren't a whole lot of near term a320 production slots out there.

As for your delta-a220 pessimism, let me share something. I work with people who do a whole lot of air travel frequently. They aren't aviation enthusiasts. Recently there's been a whole lot of positive chatter about Delta being a good flying experience. (This has been accompanied by a lot of people having horrific experiences with AA and declaring they will avoid them at all costs.)

I 100% believe that will continue as Delta takes on more a220s. And you know, the average passenger won't know that the a220 has improved cabin pressurisation and that no other narrowbody will offer that- but I think long term it will actually cause people to have better experiences. A ton of people suffer from severe migraines and avoid air travel except when necessary. It's an aircraft that can minimize migraines being triggered. If passengers don't associate your airline with debilitating headaches they will develop a preference for it.
 
impilot
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:15 pm

I didn’t see this article linked or posted anywhere here. Pretty interesting analysis and highlighting the differences manufacturers use in range calcs. Also shows the capability of the A220 with apples to apples. Will be interested to see how it ends up performing with more users and more configs with the added weight. https://leehamnews.com/2019/05/30/airbu ... sed-range/
 
VV
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:30 am

impilot wrote:
I didn’t see this article linked or posted anywhere here. Pretty interesting analysis and highlighting the differences manufacturers use in range calcs. Also shows the capability of the A220 with apples to apples. Will be interested to see how it ends up performing with more users and more configs with the added weight. https://leehamnews.com/2019/05/30/airbu ... sed-range/


A range capability beyond 3,000 nm for an aircraft as small as the C Series does not add value to the aircraft.

A modest 2,500 nm would have been sufficient if the aircraft is optimized for that range.

The MTOW increase of the C Series means there were design margins left in the aircraft.
The aircraft could have been lighter, but they decided to not shave the extra margins.

It is a pity they don't pursue the effort to reduce weight.
 
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keesje
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:18 am

VV wrote:
impilot wrote:
I didn’t see this article linked or posted anywhere here. Pretty interesting analysis and highlighting the differences manufacturers use in range calcs. Also shows the capability of the A220 with apples to apples. Will be interested to see how it ends up performing with more users and more configs with the added weight. https://leehamnews.com/2019/05/30/airbu ... sed-range/


A range capability beyond 3,000 nm for an aircraft as small as the C Series does not add value to the aircraft.

A modest 2,500 nm would have been sufficient if the aircraft is optimized for that range.

The MTOW increase of the C Series means there were design margins left in the aircraft.
The aircraft could have been lighter, but they decided to not shave the extra margins.

It is a pity they don't pursue the effort to reduce weight.


Or expand payload.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/airbus-open-to-developing-larger-version-of-a220-455067/
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
TObound
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:21 pm

Deferring CS100/A220-100 deliveries at this point would be moronic.

There's 88 orders on the books. Take out the "shaky" orders and you have 55 left (DL, LH and PV). Out of that, 19 have been delivered to date. Which leaves 36 to deliver. At this point, given long lead items and everything else, why would they defer any 221 orders when they are less than 1.5 years away from delivering all of the feasible orders? Heck, at least a third of those 36 orders will be out this calendar year. A call like this should have been made a year and a half ago. It would be far too disruptive to make this decision now. Would look terrible on Airbus too.

On the MTOW increase, I take it as a sign that Airbus is continuing development and fleshing out the aircraft as they ramp up production. It'd be far more worrying if the only thing being tackled was production.
 
TObound
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:31 am

Looks like this MTOW increase is already helping fight off the competition:

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... gn-458671/
 
Babyshark
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:42 am

Down to A220, 320Neo and 73 Max.

I guess they're going to go with the Max.

Spirit is in a hurry and the Embraer was said not to be ready, and nothing says ready to deliver like the Max.

Well. Maybe the 320. Well. That has a yuge backlog.

So 220. At 3 aircraft a month...

Hello ATR!!!!
 
TObound
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:16 am

I think even Boeing knows it's in there to keep Airbus honest. Boeing would have to offer them the deal of a lifetime to flip them. A deal that covers far more than just the 319 replacement. Maybe with the MAX not flying, Boeing will be desperate enough.....

And the article doesn't say that the E2 isn't coming fast enough. It says the Boeing-Embraer merger isn't coming fast enough for them.

They are looking for delivery in 2022. I'd say there's some flexibility in there for all three candidates.
 
Babyshark
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:21 am

So the E2 isnt coming fast enough in the form spirit wants.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:53 am

TObound wrote:
I think even Boeing knows it's in there to keep Airbus honest. Boeing would have to offer them the deal of a lifetime to flip them. A deal that covers far more than just the 319 replacement. Maybe with the MAX not flying, Boeing will be desperate enough.....

And the article doesn't say that the E2 isn't coming fast enough. It says the Boeing-Embraer merger isn't coming fast enough for them.

They are looking for delivery in 2022. I'd say there's some flexibility in there for all three candidates.

With deliveries in 2022, Embraer could have easily met demand too.

I wouldn't rule out a split order either. I was much more excited when it was A220 vs. E2. Throw in MAX & NEO and it could go many ways.

Spirit has the attention right now. Good luck to them.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
TObound
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:33 am

Babyshark wrote:
So the E2 isnt coming fast enough in the form spirit wants.


The E2 isn't coming fast enough from a company that Spirit wants to do business with. They said they recognize the reality of the duopoly. Though that could all just be a polite way to pass on the E2 without giving a real reason.
 
TObound
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:37 am

lightsaber wrote:
TObound wrote:
I think even Boeing knows it's in there to keep Airbus honest. Boeing would have to offer them the deal of a lifetime to flip them. A deal that covers far more than just the 319 replacement. Maybe with the MAX not flying, Boeing will be desperate enough.....

And the article doesn't say that the E2 isn't coming fast enough. It says the Boeing-Embraer merger isn't coming fast enough for them.

They are looking for delivery in 2022. I'd say there's some flexibility in there for all three candidates.

With deliveries in 2022, Embraer could have easily met demand too.

I wouldn't rule out a split order either. I was much more excited when it was A220 vs. E2. Throw in MAX & NEO and it could go many ways.

Spirit has the attention right now. Good luck to them.

Lightsaber


Timing was not the reason for cutting the E2. By their own admission. And if they had to, I think Spirit could stretch their existing fleet a bit longer.

Spirit took a hit with the GTF issues. I wonder how happy they are with Pratt. That could be Boeing's in. Alternately, good chance for them to leverage a massive deal from Airbus. Get 223s and book their 321Ns for down the road to replace their 321s.
 
Amiga500
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:53 am

TObound wrote:
Spirit took a hit with the GTF issues. I wonder how happy they are with Pratt. That could be Boeing's in.


:shock:

"Boeing's in" to offer them an airframe that has now been grounded for nearly 3 months? Yeah, that's the real yardstick of reliability right there.
 
TObound
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:23 am

Amiga500 wrote:
TObound wrote:
Spirit took a hit with the GTF issues. I wonder how happy they are with Pratt. That could be Boeing's in.


:shock:

"Boeing's in" to offer them an airframe that has now been grounded for nearly 3 months? Yeah, that's the real yardstick of reliability right there.


Fair. But I figure if Boeing is desperate enough they'll flog them the way Bombardier did to Delta: below cost. Good thing Boeing is domestic.....

I still think Boeing is there to keep Airbus honest. And it's really about more 320NEOs vs. 223s.
 
Babyshark
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Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:10 pm

TObound wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
TObound wrote:
Spirit took a hit with the GTF issues. I wonder how happy they are with Pratt. That could be Boeing's in.


:shock:

"Boeing's in" to offer them an airframe that has now been grounded for nearly 3 months? Yeah, that's the real yardstick of reliability right there.


Fair. But I figure if Boeing is desperate enough they'll flog them the way Bombardier did to Delta: below cost. Good thing Boeing is domestic.....

I still think Boeing is there to keep Airbus honest. And it's really about more 320NEOs vs. 223s.


That's what I find interesting. We are going to have a competition between the 320 vs 220 both sold by... Airbus.

What would you do as Airbus?

Could spirit go 3x3 in the 223?
 
TObound
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:28 pm

Babyshark wrote:
TObound wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:

:shock:

"Boeing's in" to offer them an airframe that has now been grounded for nearly 3 months? Yeah, that's the real yardstick of reliability right there.


Fair. But I figure if Boeing is desperate enough they'll flog them the way Bombardier did to Delta: below cost. Good thing Boeing is domestic.....

I still think Boeing is there to keep Airbus honest. And it's really about more 320NEOs vs. 223s.


That's what I find interesting. We are going to have a competition between the 320 vs 220 both sold by... Airbus.

What would you do as Airbus?


Sell the hi-lo split. Sell them 223s and then get them to upgauge most of their existing 320Ns to 321Ns. Margin boost and manageable backlog. That would be quite a win for Airbus from a ULCC customer.

Babyshark wrote:
Could spirit go 3x3 in the 223?


I don't think the CSeries was ever certified for that.
 
Babyshark
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:35 pm

TObound wrote:
Babyshark wrote:
TObound wrote:

Fair. But I figure if Boeing is desperate enough they'll flog them the way Bombardier did to Delta: below cost. Good thing Boeing is domestic.....

I still think Boeing is there to keep Airbus honest. And it's really about more 320NEOs vs. 223s.


That's what I find interesting. We are going to have a competition between the 320 vs 220 both sold by... Airbus.

What would you do as Airbus?


Sell the hi-lo split. Sell them 223s and then get them to upgauge most of their existing 320Ns to 321Ns. Margin boost and manageable backlog. That would be quite a win for Airbus from a ULCC customer.

Babyshark wrote:
Could spirit go 3x3 in the 223?


I don't think the CSeries was ever certified for that.


Sounds expensive for someone to trade in new 320Ns for something else.
 
TObound
Posts: 69
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:14 pm

Babyshark wrote:
TObound wrote:
Babyshark wrote:

That's what I find interesting. We are going to have a competition between the 320 vs 220 both sold by... Airbus.

What would you do as Airbus?


Sell the hi-lo split. Sell them 223s and then get them to upgauge most of their existing 320Ns to 321Ns. Margin boost and manageable backlog. That would be quite a win for Airbus from a ULCC customer.

Babyshark wrote:
Could spirit go 3x3 in the 223?


I don't think the CSeries was ever certified for that.


Sounds expensive for someone to trade in new 320Ns for something else.


Who said anything about trading in? Just convert most of the orders that are left to 321Ns. And there's a lot of them.
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 261
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:39 pm

Just wondering how close to “across the pond” this thing is getting with just pax bags and maybe a premium heavy light load of

3 across first, 4 across business, and 5 across coach passengers... in some sort of say 90 total seat configuration.

There is always Iceland of course!
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
Babyshark
Posts: 149
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:48 pm

Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:29 pm

TObound wrote:
Babyshark wrote:
TObound wrote:

Sell the hi-lo split. Sell them 223s and then get them to upgauge most of their existing 320Ns to 321Ns. Margin boost and manageable backlog. That would be quite a win for Airbus from a ULCC customer.



I don't think the CSeries was ever certified for that.


Sounds expensive for someone to trade in new 320Ns for something else.


Who said anything about trading in? Just convert most of the orders that are left to 321Ns. And there's a lot of them.


When you said existing i thought you meant the ones they already had.... existing. You meant existing on the order book.

That works too. I bet in Airbus and JBs mind a better win would be a lighter 319N.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 17523
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:42 pm

In a PR discussion, Airbus notes the A220 MTOW increase was due to customer demand:

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ential?amp

The link notes Korean Air and AirBaltic either want to or are flying the aircraft on long missions.

A few more potential A220 customers have come out prior to Paris. At this time only Spirit really needs the MTOW. As Leehman has noted, the A220-300 MTOW increase only fully benefits high density carriers.

I am such a fan of this plane! Then again, I worked the BRX and GTFs early on. :spin:

Let us see what happens at Paris. The above link notes a ramp to 14/month (168/year). To justify that ramp, another 1200 must be sold...

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
VV
Posts: 718
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:15 pm

Mea culpa.

The A220 gets 5,000 lb MTOW increase but no MLW nor MZFW increase.
It looks like the weight saving program is not the issue.
 
ExMilitaryEng
Posts: 525
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 7:12 pm

Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:45 pm

Thanks Lightsaber for bringing this extremely relevant/interesting article.

FWIW, yesterday I also brought to vv the part where Rob Dewar says "customer demand prompted the improvements that resulted in a range increase of some 450 nm..." (But I suspect VV did not see it...).

Regards

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1423475&p=21426267#p21426267 (reply # 236)
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 17523
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:58 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
Thanks Lightsaber for bringing this extremely relevant/interesting article.

FWIW, yesterday I also brought to vv the part where Rob Dewar says "customer demand prompted the improvements that resulted in a range increase of some 450 nm..." (But I suspect VV did not see it...).

Regards

https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtop ... #p21426267 (reply # 236)

Thank you for the link.

I hope their is a new mystery LCC in the works, but I have heard nothing. However, my sources are strongly hinting at an options too off. I can only speculate as to who.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
ExMilitaryEng
Posts: 525
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 7:12 pm

Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:23 pm

Just a question about an ETOPS 180 A220-300; what is the weight of the additional equipment (life rafts, additional emergency oxygen, additional fire suppression canisters etc) that is required?

I guess we could use an AC ETOPS A319 for comparison - info that was "floating" (pun intended) around here a while ago - but I just can't find it anymore.

Is it possible that this new MTOW could then be reached with full fuel on an ETOPS flight, even with only 145 passengers / full luggage?
 
ExMilitaryEng
Posts: 525
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 7:12 pm

Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:25 pm

Interesting development here; it appears that Delta has selected this new higher-weight option for its entire fleet from 2020.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 20-459113/

So somehow it seems this new increased MTOW version is actually desirable for more applications than we thought.
And it validates what Airbus said about "customer demand prompted the improvements that resulted in a range increase of some 450 nm...".
 
SteelChair
Posts: 992
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:37 am

Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:12 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
Interesting development here; it appears that Delta has selected this new higher-weight option for its entire fleet from 2020.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 20-459113/

So somehow it seems this new increased MTOW version is actually desirable for more applications than we thought.

And it validates what Airbus said about "customer demand prompted the improvements that resulted in a range increase of some 450 nm...".


One could guess they're not going to contunue to run the engine in its most derated form. Why order the IGW if you cant get it off the ground at high temp/short runway? Wonder what markets they are eyeing that require this additional range?
 
wrongwayup
Posts: 349
Joined: Thu Jan 07, 2016 6:23 pm

Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:17 pm

Airbus will no doubt be pleased to get a higher selling price for the extra capability.
 
ExMilitaryEng
Posts: 525
Joined: Mon May 01, 2017 7:12 pm

Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:47 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Why order the IGW... ? Wonder what markets they are eyeing that require this additional range?

Indeed.

I was under the impression the A220 had already US transcontinental range (dual class configuration, assuming the higher rated engine).
So why switching to the 2.3T increased MTOW version? SEA - Hawaii maybe?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3153
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: A220 gets 2.3T MTOW increase

Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:03 pm

[url][/url]
Aircellist wrote:
Talking about the differences between BBD and Airbus… I know or used to know people working in the aviation part of BBD… I've lost sight of some and I know some no longer works for BBD. Their stories had strikingly similar parts, even though they were told years apart.

In short, my understanding is that it implied everything at BBD is divided into silos which are like little personal fiefdoms, with very little information flowing from one part of the company to the other. Really sorry I cannot recount what I was told…

I don't know how is Airbus' corporate culture… But I sincerely hope it is better. I also hope Airbus does buy BBD's share and invests and stays in Quebec.


That’s all very true about silos. From the bizjet side, the 605 ProLine 21 introduced QNH pre-select, in Cruise on STD, when the pilot received the QNH, it could be set and displayed, push the button, instant changeover. Guess what, not on the Global Fusion. Why? I asked some Collins engineers; answer, the Fusion team
at BBD didn’t ask for it. More questions internally, they didn’t know about it. Stunning.

GF

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