N292UX
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sat May 25, 2019 9:07 pm

At this moment 40 years ago today, there would be a massive fire just beyond runway 32R. AA 191 would've crashed about 1 hour ago.

271 lives would have just been lost...
Last edited by N292UX on Sat May 25, 2019 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Ionosphere
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sat May 25, 2019 9:07 pm

MeanGreen wrote:
gunsontheroof wrote:
MeanGreen wrote:
It appears that the Captain flew the accident aircraft in from PHX. He was then going to be off duty but was assigned to 191.


Actually, if memory serves me correctly, he swapped trips with another pilot he knew when they ran into each other at ORD as a favor.


Interesting, I figured someone had called in. I didn’t know it happened the way you described.


Captain Lux lived in the PHX area. Another CA asked him to take the trip at ORD and he did. Lux was supposed to spend the weekend with his son at the family lake house in WI.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sat May 25, 2019 9:19 pm

MeanGreen wrote:
If only I had a time machine to warn them.

....then you'd probably doom many more people to a similar tragic fate.

Major changes to both aircraft design (particularly in terms of standard safety eqp vs. optional) and to internal mtx regimens, came about due to this crash.

As tragic as it was, this crash probably saved far more future lives, than the 271+2 that died as a direct result.



Lingon wrote:
These pictures show how quickly the plane rolled when the left wing stalled. That is what chills me. I never knew it was so fast. Looking at the buildings, they didn't travel far from level flight to 112 degree bank, it 's a split second. The pilots wouldn't even have had time to react.

:checkmark: :checkmark: That was exactly the first thing I noticed as well.

All the Mayday and Seconds From Disaster style of recreations, stretch out the stall sequence to where it seemed like 30seconds to a minute.
Granted, I'm sure much of this was done for cinematic reasons, but that's the impression it left with viewers.

It really seems like they only had a second or two, between level flight and the aircraft virtually being on its back. They probably never had a chance to react. :(
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
trnswrld
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sat May 25, 2019 9:21 pm

QueenoftheSkies wrote:
I wonder if the pilots had known they had physically lost the engine from the wing, would the have just kept it on the ground? I know they were at takeoff speed but they didn’t have a chance in hell with the engine falling off.

Not necessarily true. As far as I know the pilots had no clue the engine actually departed the aircraft. With that said, the pilots followed proper AA procedures and flew the aircraft assuming an engine failure (I believe), which surprisingly means reduce power a bit and pitch up if I remember correctly. Seems odd, however because of the asymmetrical slat and flaps because of the loss of hydraulics on the one side, they had no chance and was exasperated with the reduction in speed. Investigators say a DC-10 is flyable with asymmetrical flaps/slats, but with the speed reduction the one wing with retracted flaps and slats stalled. Such a sad accident.
 
N292UX
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sat May 25, 2019 9:24 pm

This right here is a very haunting photo. This is a photo of the doomed AA191 flight taxiing for departure at ORD on the exact flight that it would crash. Pretty chilling to think about what would happen just a few minutes later.

Image
 
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william
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sat May 25, 2019 9:54 pm

picarus wrote:
william wrote:
LMP737 wrote:

The crash was caused by improper maintenance, pure and simple.


Yes, you are correct. AA should not have gone cheap and used a forklift to remove engines. But after the fact, it was possible for the pilots to save the aircraft. They did themselves no favor pulling back on thrust as trained with a loss of engine.


Perhaps not, but those pilots put up a hell of fight and responded EXACTLY the way they were trained to do. I know you're not meaning to disparage the flight crew, but the events that transpired were beyond any comprehension of any training they had. They didn't have the luxury of 20/20 hindsight.


True.
 
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sat May 25, 2019 11:02 pm

727LOVER wrote:
Also, why did one crash and the other, not? Cargo door blew out on both, correct?


Because there were much less passengers (56) on the AA flight.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sat May 25, 2019 11:11 pm

Does anyone know what aircraft and airline this is in the foreground. Looks like a DC8, maybe air canada?

https://lessonslearned.faa.gov/American ... _photo.jpg
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sat May 25, 2019 11:22 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
Does anyone know what aircraft and airline this is in the foreground. Looks like a DC8, maybe air canada?

https://lessonslearned.faa.gov/American ... _photo.jpg


The tail looks like this.


 
TMccrury
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sat May 25, 2019 11:47 pm

texdravid wrote:
One of the other reasons this crash resonates is that at that time in the late 70’s and early 80’s, AA DC-10’s on takeoff and landing showed the actual cockpit video on the big monitors in the passenger cabin.

The vantage point was just behind the pilots.
So thus, these poor passengers watched themselves go down to their deaths and the pilots fighting to the end.

As a kid, I flew a AA DC-10 in 1981 and the cockpit video was still being shown....



I remember flying an AA DC-10 from LAX to DFW in 1985 and watching the cockpit video feed. It was the best picture, but it was still cool to watch. Also, I remember hearing about the crash. My family was on vacation in Andrews, TX when the news broke. In those days, i wasn't flying much being just a kid, so didn't realize they had the video feed. I agree with you the terror that had to be inside that plane had to be off the charts.
 
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longhauler
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 12:29 am

TMccrury wrote:
texdravid wrote:
One of the other reasons this crash resonates is that at that time in the late 70’s and early 80’s, AA DC-10’s on takeoff and landing showed the actual cockpit video on the big monitors in the passenger cabin.

The vantage point was just behind the pilots.
So thus, these poor passengers watched themselves go down to their deaths and the pilots fighting to the end.

As a kid, I flew a AA DC-10 in 1981 and the cockpit video was still being shown....



I remember flying an AA DC-10 from LAX to DFW in 1985 and watching the cockpit video feed. It was the best picture, but it was still cool to watch. Also, I remember hearing about the crash. My family was on vacation in Andrews, TX when the news broke. In those days, i wasn't flying much being just a kid, so didn't realize they had the video feed. I agree with you the terror that had to be inside that plane had to be off the charts.


... or they could have just looked out of one of a few dozen windows. :roll:
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 1:17 am

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
Does anyone know what aircraft and airline this is in the foreground. Looks like a DC8, maybe air canada?

https://lessonslearned.faa.gov/American ... _photo.jpg


The tail looks like this.



I dont think it is a 707 because the tail end of the plane rides higher than the front end and 707s, as your pic shows is level from tail to nose. It also is sitting higher than a 707.
 
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DL747400
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 1:31 am

40 years ago today was a terrible day which I will never, ever forget. Only a couple of minutes after I walked in the door from school, all TV stations interrupted programming with news of the crash. I went outdoors and looked to the northeast and saw the column of thick black smoke rising from the crash site. Forever etched in my memory.
From First to Worst: The history of Airliners.net.

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b4thefall
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 1:54 am

SpaceshipDC10 wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
Also, why did one crash and the other, not? Cargo door blew out on both, correct?


Because there were much less passengers (56) on the AA flight.



Correct! Turkish Airlines had high density seating on their DC-10s then, and the flight was fully loaded. This put extra stress on the floor, which then collapsed upon the failure of the cargo door, severing the control cables. Tragically, the flight was originally due to be quite lightly loaded, but a strike by BEA (I believe) led to their passengers being tranfered over to the Turkish flight.
 
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 2:10 am

727LOVER wrote:
Also, why did one crash and the other, not? Cargo door blew out on both, correct?

Yes. However, Turkish 981 had 346 people on board, including crew. American 96 had only 67 people on board. The result was that after the cargo doors blew out, American 96 had a partial floor collapse, which took out a few control cables at best. Turkish 981 had part of the floor completely collapse and exit the aircraft, which completely severed the control cables and made recovery impossible.
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 2:17 am

727LOVER wrote:
I KNOW that you are talking about Paris,1974...but in case there are some youngsters on here, please elaborate.

Also, why did one crash and the other, not? Cargo door blew out on both, correct?


AA96 was lightly loaded, so the control cables weren't fully severed. TK981 was fully loaded, hence they didn't have the control.
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 5:37 am

Bobloblaw wrote:
Does anyone know what aircraft and airline this is in the foreground. Looks like a DC8, maybe air canada?

https://lessonslearned.faa.gov/American ... _photo.jpg


It is a TWA 707 with open engine cowlings.
 
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 5:38 am

Bobloblaw wrote:
I dont think it is a 707 because the tail end of the plane rides higher than the front end and 707s, as your pic shows is level from tail to nose. It also is sitting higher than a 707.


It is indeed a TWA 707. Look at the shape of the fuselage cross-section. Pure Boeing. DC-8 had a 'double bubble' cross section.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 11:01 am

The Swiss cheese holes, not a single reason. Bad maintenance (forklift), bad design (not locking slats after hydraulic failure, stick shakers run off only one hydraulic system), bad procedure (assumed all high lift devices are operational), lack of mandated safety devices (warning about slats, stick shakers). Piloting seemed fine though, but they didn't have a chance given the procedures.
 
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longhauler
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 12:10 pm

AirKevin wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
Also, why did one crash and the other, not? Cargo door blew out on both, correct?

Yes. However, Turkish 981 had 346 people on board, including crew. American 96 had only 67 people on board. The result was that after the cargo doors blew out, American 96 had a partial floor collapse, which took out a few control cables at best. Turkish 981 had part of the floor completely collapse and exit the aircraft, which completely severed the control cables and made recovery impossible.


Add to both of these, the cabin to cargo hold floor was not properly vented as the difference in pressure should not have buckled it. This was identified after American 96. McDD "promised" to fix both the cargo door and the venting, so FAA did not ground the aircraft.

The Turkish aircraft was still on the production line when this Gentleman's (I use the term loosely) Agreement was made. It should have been fixed before it even flew ... but both the cargo door and the venting were not fixed.

In my opinion, the actions of both the FAA and McDD were criminal.

I have always felt, that is why the DC-10 was grounded after this incident in 1979, 5 years later, when essentially, it was a maintenance anomaly and not an aircraft fault. FAA and McDD got away with it before, they weren't going to take any chances this time.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 12:34 pm

mga707 wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
I dont think it is a 707 because the tail end of the plane rides higher than the front end and 707s, as your pic shows is level from tail to nose. It also is sitting higher than a 707.


It is indeed a TWA 707. Look at the shape of the fuselage cross-section. Pure Boeing. DC-8 had a 'double bubble' cross section.

Ok thanks
 
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 2:06 pm

texdravid wrote:
The vantage point was just behind the pilots.
So thus, these poor passengers watched themselves go down to their deaths and the pilots fighting to the end.


It's not an absolute certainty since electrical power was lost with the engine's separation. However, it is known that the DFDR recorded the 31 sec the aircraft was airborne. At 20 sec after liftoff it began to roll to the left, at 28 sec it was at a 90° left bank and 0° pitch and three seconds later 112° left roll and 21° nose down. With or without live video, people onboard must have felt something was wrong with the increasing left bank angle beyond what's usually experienced during normal flights.
 
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 2:29 pm

mga707 wrote:
It is indeed a TWA 707. Look at the shape of the fuselage cross-section. Pure Boeing. DC-8 had a 'double bubble' cross section.


It may be a 707 but it does not appear to be TWA. TWA had twin red stripes that got lower and thicker as they wrapped around the rear of the plane. This plane seems to have a single red stripe that is the same thickness and does not wrap around the fuselage.
 
trnswrld
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 3:49 pm

I always thought that worked aircraft looked to be a DC8. Never thought it could have been a 707.

As for the I flight video. I don’t think that would have made much of a difference to people on board. Back then video quality was poor and they wouldn’t have seen anything other than pilots in there seats.
In the cabin all I can hope for is the majority of people couldn’t see outside and it all happened very quick. Rip
 
dc10co
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 4:24 pm

ord wrote:
mga707 wrote:
It is indeed a TWA 707. Look at the shape of the fuselage cross-section. Pure Boeing. DC-8 had a 'double bubble' cross section.


It may be a 707 but it does not appear to be TWA. TWA had twin red stripes that got lower and thicker as they wrapped around the rear of the plane. This plane seems to have a single red stripe that is the same thickness and does not wrap around the fuselage.

I believe it is in fact TWA, just an earlier version of their livery before the two long stripes. If you look at pictures of their Convair 880’s and early 707’s the red stripe is identical. Or could it possibly be AC?

This crash has always fascinated me. Growing up with a father who is an American Airlines mechanic he always told me how much this crash stuck with him as a teenager. RIP to all lost
Listen Betty, don't start up with your white zone shit again.
 
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 4:33 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
1979 was a very bad year for DC-10s. Three examples were lost in a 6 months period - American 191, Western 2605, and Air New Zealand 901.

If social media existed back then, MDC would have been dead.


WAL and ANZ were both clearly crew errors/
 
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 4:49 pm

1) I don’t know where this idea of the crew “reducing power” comes from. They did no such thing. They pitched up to slow to V2, which is standard procedure on any transport category jet for an engine failure during initial climb. Power remained the same throughout the flight. Reference: NTSB report.

2) The airplane in the foreground of the color image of the accident is a DC-8, not a 707. The flaps and ground stance of the airplane are the giveaways here. It doesn’t look like the United tulip; maybe Air Jamaica? Not sure of the airline, but that is definitely a DC-8 and not a 707.
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SpaceshipDC10
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 5:00 pm

ord wrote:
It may be a 707 but it does not appear to be TWA. TWA had twin red stripes that got lower and thicker as they wrapped around the rear of the plane. This plane seems to have a single red stripe that is the same thickness and does not wrap around the fuselage.


When looking at the fireball photo, which is clearer, with a magnifying glass, I see the red cheat line seems to be broad from about below window line to around top of passenger doors. Also, at the rear, the bottom of the line looks round upward. First engine at left looks to have a tailpipe like the one used on JT4As.
 
LH707330
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 5:14 pm

The foreground picture is definitely a DC-8.

1. The flaps are slightly extended, and don't show the thrust gate that the 707s have.
2. The inboard engines are closer in, a telltale DC-8 attribute.
3. There's a pretty pronounced nose-down deck angle, whereas the 707s are almost level
 
dtw9
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 5:44 pm

My guess is that it’s a Zantop DC-8-33. Dehedral is too great on the horizontal stabilizer to be a 707
 
Cody
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 8:13 pm

Air Jamaica DC-8
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 8:29 pm

Cody wrote:
Air Jamaica DC-8


Indeed, and based on the data available, it's this one, IF I'm correct regarding what I said earlier about the engine:



Former CF-TJA at TCA/AC, leased to JM 7/77-7/80 then Aeronaves del Peru.
Last edited by SpaceshipDC10 on Sun May 26, 2019 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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longhauler
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 8:31 pm

Cody wrote:
Air Jamaica DC-8


That was my guess, or AeroPeru.
But with its unique open cowls, it looks like a 62/63, so maybe an Air Jam -62.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
klm617
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 8:36 pm

Cody wrote:
Air Jamaica DC-8



Thank you for clearing that up. I had thought all these years that it was an Air Canada DC-8 but you are correct it is Air Jamaica.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Sun May 26, 2019 11:48 pm

BravoOne wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
1979 was a very bad year for DC-10s. Three examples were lost in a 6 months period - American 191, Western 2605, and Air New Zealand 901.

If social media existed back then, MDC would have been dead.


WAL and ANZ were both clearly crew errors/


Yes, but in the media, they don't see it that way. All they see is DC-10
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BravoOne
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Mon May 27, 2019 2:28 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
1979 was a very bad year for DC-10s. Three examples were lost in a 6 months period - American 191, Western 2605, and Air New Zealand 901.

If social media existed back then, MDC would have been dead.


WAL and ANZ were both clearly crew errors/


Yes, but in the media, they don't see it that way. All they see is DC-10



Not much different here on ANet as evidenced by the by TheflyingDisk.
 
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Mon May 27, 2019 3:07 pm

727LOVER wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Some things to remember about the DC-10:

1) We learned that a "gentleman's agreement" on fixing deadly flaws doesn't work. AA #92 showed us that the DC-10's cargo door was not secure in the old way; planes SHOULD have been grounded until fixed. But because it wasn't given urgency, 346 people paid the price..



I KNOW that you are talking about Paris,1974...but in case there are some youngsters on here, please elaborate.

Also, why did one crash and the other, not? Cargo door blew out on both, correct?


AA Flight 96 experienced the exact rear cargo door failure what happened to THY Flight 981 two years later. AA flight 96 was able to be saved because there were only 56 passengers on board and nobody sitting in the section directly above the rear cargo hold. The lack of weight upon the floor allowed it to only partially collapse into the hold, keeping a few control lines intact...enough for the pilots to get the plane down safely. Interesting to note, a dead body in a coffin was being carried as cargo in the rear hold. It was ejected.
THY Flight 981 experienced the exact door failure, though with a full load of passengers’ weight on the floor, the collapse was total, all lines severed, no control. Down they went.
 
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Mon May 27, 2019 3:27 pm

william wrote:

Yes, you are correct. AA should not have gone cheap and used a forklift to remove engines. But after the fact, it was possible for the pilots to save the aircraft. They did themselves no favor pulling back on thrust as trained with a loss of engine.


The forklift is only part of the equation. The mistake they made was taking off the engine and pylon together to save time. If they had taken the engine off then the pylon none of this would have ever happened.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
dtw9
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Mon May 27, 2019 4:18 pm

Most people don’t realize that during the time that inspections were being carried out on the US DC-10 fleet that Pan Am also found a crack in an engine mount on one of their 747’s
Last edited by dtw9 on Mon May 27, 2019 4:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Mon May 27, 2019 4:21 pm

CairnterriAIR wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Some things to remember about the DC-10:

1) We learned that a "gentleman's agreement" on fixing deadly flaws doesn't work. AA #92 showed us that the DC-10's cargo door was not secure in the old way; planes SHOULD have been grounded until fixed. But because it wasn't given urgency, 346 people paid the price..



I KNOW that you are talking about Paris,1974...but in case there are some youngsters on here, please elaborate.

Also, why did one crash and the other, not? Cargo door blew out on both, correct?


AA Flight 96 experienced the exact rear cargo door failure what happened to THY Flight 981 two years later. AA flight 96 was able to be saved because there were only 56 passengers on board and nobody sitting in the section directly above the rear cargo hold. The lack of weight upon the floor allowed it to only partially collapse into the hold, keeping a few control lines intact...enough for the pilots to get the plane down safely. Interesting to note, a dead body in a coffin was being carried as cargo in the rear hold. It was ejected.
THY Flight 981 experienced the exact door failure, though with a full load of passengers’ weight on the floor, the collapse was total, all lines severed, no control. Down they went.


I seem to remember reading as well that there was some kind of stand-up bar in the back, and one of the flight attendants was briefly trapped because of the partially collapsed floor. I have no source other than to say "I read it a long time ago". Maybe someone here in the know can confirm.

The THY crash was filled to the brim because of a strike at London Heathrow airport by ground services, meaning ticketed passengers on BEA flights were out of luck. THY used a different service, hence it was not canceled. The plane was full because of all those "stranded" passengers thinking they were lucky, when indeed, they were not. Because of the extra weight, the flight controls were completely severed.

On a side note, I have always read that the two rows of seats that were ejected were rows of three - I have never heard of a DC-10 being anything other than 2x5x2. Was THY's fleet of DC-10's 3x3x3?
 
dtw9
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Mon May 27, 2019 4:38 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
CairnterriAIR wrote:
727LOVER wrote:


I KNOW that you are talking about Paris,1974...but in case there are some youngsters on here, please elaborate.

Also, why did one crash and the other, not? Cargo door blew out on both, correct?


AA Flight 96 experienced the exact rear cargo door failure what happened to THY Flight 981 two years later. AA flight 96 was able to be saved because there were only 56 passengers on board and nobody sitting in the section directly above the rear cargo hold. The lack of weight upon the floor allowed it to only partially collapse into the hold, keeping a few control lines intact...enough for the pilots to get the plane down safely. Interesting to note, a dead body in a coffin was being carried as cargo in the rear hold. It was ejected.
THY Flight 981 experienced the exact door failure, though with a full load of passengers’ weight on the floor, the collapse was total, all lines severed, no control. Down they went.


I seem to remember reading as well that there was some kind of stand-up bar in the back, and one of the flight attendants was briefly trapped because of the partially collapsed floor. I have no source other than to say "I read it a long time ago". Maybe someone here in the know can confirm.

The THY crash was filled to the brim because of a strike at London Heathrow airport by ground services, meaning ticketed passengers on BEA flights were out of luck. THY used a different service, hence it was not canceled. The plane was full because of all those "stranded" passengers thinking they were lucky, when indeed, they were not. Because of the extra weight, the flight controls were completely severed.

On a side note, I have always read that the two rows of seats that were ejected were rows of three - I have never heard of a DC-10 being anything other than 2x5x2. Was THY's fleet of DC-10's 3x3x3?



World Airways 354 seat layout shows 3-4-3 until the final 7 rows which went to 3-3-3
 
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Mon May 27, 2019 4:38 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
On a side note, I have always read that the two rows of seats that were ejected were rows of three - I have never heard of a DC-10 being anything other than 2x5x2. Was THY's fleet of DC-10's 3x3x3?


I believe TK DC-10s were in high- density configuration. They were part of a deal with Mitsui leasing company that was to lease them to All Nippon for domestic services but in the end ANA ordered L1011s. Two other DC-10-10s went to charter airline Laker Airways. Thus I believe they were configured in the highest density possible then, that is Y345, which means a 3-4-3 except up front and the rear of the cabin. I think they were configured about like this: https://frequentlyflying.boardingarea.c ... from-1987/


 
dfwjim1
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Mon May 27, 2019 5:28 pm

Ionosphere wrote:
MeanGreen wrote:
gunsontheroof wrote:

Actually, if memory serves me correctly, he swapped trips with another pilot he knew when they ran into each other at ORD as a favor.


Interesting, I figured someone had called in. I didn’t know it happened the way you described.


Captain Lux lived in the PHX area. Another CA asked him to take the trip at ORD and he did. Lux was supposed to spend the weekend with his son at the family lake house in WI.


Judging by the above comments he seems like the pilots swapped flights at the spur of the moment. Was it that really that easy or did they have to get approval from a dispatcher/manager to make the swap?
 
mga707
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Mon May 27, 2019 5:44 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
Ionosphere wrote:
MeanGreen wrote:

Interesting, I figured someone had called in. I didn’t know it happened the way you described.


Captain Lux lived in the PHX area. Another CA asked him to take the trip at ORD and he did. Lux was supposed to spend the weekend with his son at the family lake house in WI.


Judging by the above comments he seems like the pilots swapped flights at the spur of the moment. Was it that really that easy or did they have to get approval from a dispatcher/manager to make the swap?


Either way the pilot he swapped with had to have had some serious 'survivor's guilt'. Shades of Waylon Jennings after the Buddy Holly crash--he was supposed to be on that plane but traded seats at the last second with The Big Bopper' (J. P. Richardson), rode the tour bus, and lived.
Last edited by mga707 on Mon May 27, 2019 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
mga707
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Mon May 27, 2019 5:50 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:

I seem to remember reading as well that there was some kind of stand-up bar in the back, and one of the flight attendants was briefly trapped because of the partially collapsed floor. I have no source other than to say "I read it a long time ago". Maybe someone here in the know can confirm.



You are correct. AA's original DC-10 had a Coach Lounge in the rear when delivered. Total capacity was only around 205 or so seats until the lounges were removed later in the '70s. By May of '79 they were long gone.
 
Cody
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Mon May 27, 2019 6:25 pm

When Captain Lux's family arrived at ORD, both the ORD Chief Pilot and the Captain that orginally had flight 191 met them at the gate. Very courageous on his part. I hope any guilt he may have felt has subsided. There are no accidents in God's kingdom.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Mon May 27, 2019 10:49 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Not much different here on ANet as evidenced by the by TheflyingDisk.


What's with the snark? I'm just saying it as it is. I know damn well that the Western DC-10 accident is pilot error, and the ANZ DC-10 accident is "an orchestrated litany of lies"...
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
dfwjim1
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 12:27 am

Cody wrote:
When Captain Lux's family arrived at ORD, both the ORD Chief Pilot and the Captain that orginally had flight 191 met them at the gate. Very courageous on his part. I hope any guilt he may have felt has subsided. There are no accidents in God's kingdom.


Wow that was courageous on his part for sure and I imagine that it helped him feel better over time. I bet he gained a new appreciation of life.
 
dfwjim1
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 12:30 am

[quote="N292UX"]This right here is a very haunting photo. This is a photo of the doomed AA191 flight taxiing for departure at ORD on the exact flight that it would crash. Pretty chilling.

Was this photo taken by the same person who took the famous crash photos?
 
dfwjim1
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 12:41 am

Cody wrote:
I recently worked with a former American mechanic who worked with some of the people that replaced that engine in Tulsa. He told me that in the end McDonnell Douglas ended up taking most of the lawsuits. But then ironically American ordered all those Super 80s shortly afterward.


Why did MDC take most of the lawsuit hits when they warned AA not to remove the wing engines in the manner they were doing it?

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