Bobloblaw
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 12:55 am

dfwjim1 wrote:
Cody wrote:
I recently worked with a former American mechanic who worked with some of the people that replaced that engine in Tulsa. He told me that in the end McDonnell Douglas ended up taking most of the lawsuits. But then ironically American ordered all those Super 80s shortly afterward.


Why did MDC take most of the lawsuit hits when they warned AA not to remove the wing engines in the manner they were doing it?

You take the blame, we’ll buy the DC9-80. AA saved the D98 program
 
BUFJACK10
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 12:58 am

There are so many people that are often affected by this type of tragedy. I was on the inbound from Phoenix that morning on a PHX-ORD-BUF after a job interview the previous day and remember looking back at the podium after disembarking and seeing the flight information as AA 191 to Los Angeles. Even though the departure was still around 90 minutes away there was a number of passengers in the waiting area. I saw a number of people who lost their lives that day.

It affects you, but what most people tend to forget are the gate agents who board the passengers, the mechanics who sign off on the flight with the captain and the gate agent who closes the door with the flight attendant and pulls the jetway away. One can only imagine how they were affected and in all probability every time they hear of an accident to this day it brings back horrible memories. In many ways airline employees are more like family than in other professions.

I arrived in BUF shortly after the accident , my flight departed ORD before the crash, and upon arrival overheard two agents who were visibly upset speaking of the accident and the possibility of a departure delay. It's situations like that when you realize the magnitude of what happens when an accident occurs. It wasn't until I watched the news that night and realized how lucky I was, and how to appreciate each day you have.

To this day on the anniversary I light a candle for all those involved.
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Bobloblaw
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 1:01 am

LH707330 wrote:
The foreground picture is definitely a DC-8.

1. The flaps are slightly extended, and don't show the thrust gate that the 707s have.
2. The inboard engines are closer in, a telltale DC-8 attribute.
3. There's a pretty pronounced nose-down deck angle, whereas the 707s are almost level

Number 3 is why I’ve always thought it was a DC8 and it’s not a super 8. The red made me think air canada but I see now it is JM. One of the pics shows an Ozark DC9 either landing or taking off.
 
stlgph
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 1:09 am

Fantastic read by Chicago Magazine, "The Ghosts of 191."

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magaz ... light-191/
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DL747400
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 1:18 am

dfwjim1 wrote:
Why did MDC take most of the lawsuit hits when they warned AA not to remove the wing engines in the manner they were doing it?


Perhaps because AA's lawyers and/or AA's insurance company's lawyers were better at negotiating than the lawyers for McDonnell Douglas?

Also, as someone else mentioned earlier, it is extremely interesting that AA ordered the Super 80 in 1982, even as the myriad lawsuits from the 1979 O'Hare crash were still being making their way through the courts. Coincidence or another gentleman's agreement? You decide.
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CairnterriAIR
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 1:25 am

My mother worked at BDL for Eastern and was working the gate that day. The AA gates were next to the EA gates. At the end of her shift in the late afternoon, the American gate agents were in tears as they had boarded a number of passengers onto the Chicago flight who were connecting to Flight 191. Pretty much every staff member from each airline was shaken up.
 
phatfarmlines
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 2:44 am

stlgph wrote:
Fantastic read by Chicago Magazine, "The Ghosts of 191."

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magaz ... light-191/


Thanks, first time seeing those pictures from the perspective of another passenger on a different flight that just arrived into ORD.
 
Cody
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 2:58 am

dfwjim1 wrote:
Cody wrote:
I recently worked with a former American mechanic who worked with some of the people that replaced that engine in Tulsa. He told me that in the end McDonnell Douglas ended up taking most of the lawsuits. But then ironically American ordered all those Super 80s shortly afterward.


Why did MDC take most of the lawsuit hits when they warned AA not to remove the wing engines in the manner they were doing it?



That is a good question and I cannot give you a good answer. He just told me that MDC took the majority of the lawsuits and then American bought all those MD-80s.
 
MeanGreen
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 3:23 am

BUFJACK10 wrote:
There are so many people that are often affected by this type of tragedy. I was on the inbound from Phoenix that morning on a PHX-ORD-BUF after a job interview the previous day and remember looking back at the podium after disembarking and seeing the flight information as AA 191 to Los Angeles. Even though the departure was still around 90 minutes away there was a number of passengers in the waiting area. I saw a number of people who lost their lives that day.

It affects you, but what most people tend to forget are the gate agents who board the passengers, the mechanics who sign off on the flight with the captain and the gate agent who closes the door with the flight attendant and pulls the jetway away. One can only imagine how they were affected and in all probability every time they hear of an accident to this day it brings back horrible memories. In many ways airline employees are more like family than in other professions.

I arrived in BUF shortly after the accident , my flight departed ORD before the crash, and upon arrival overheard two agents who were visibly upset speaking of the accident and the possibility of a departure delay. It's situations like that when you realize the magnitude of what happens when an accident occurs. It wasn't until I watched the news that night and realized how lucky I was, and how to appreciate each day you have.

To this day on the anniversary I light a candle for all those involved.

What an incredible story, thank you for sharing. I can’t imagine how you felt.
 
Cody
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 3:56 am

I don' t think it has been mentioned, but as odd as it sounds, this is the first and only air disaster that was documented by the FAA before it actually happened. There are several articles and youtube interviews with David Booth that are interesting. He was a car rental agent in CVG that had a series of nightmares about a plane crash that looked exactly like flight 191. The dream sequence happened 10 nights in a row and ended the morning of May 25, 1979. He reported it to the FAA three times during that 10-day period and they documented the details.....American Airlines DC-10, engine problem, rolls over to the left and crashes with a huge explosion. The FAA actually documented his report prior to May 25th.

David Booth....interesting story if you want to research it.
 
Cody
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 3:58 am

BUFJACK10 wrote:
There are so many people that are often affected by this type of tragedy. I was on the inbound from Phoenix that morning on a PHX-ORD-BUF after a job interview the previous day and remember looking back at the podium after disembarking and seeing the flight information as AA 191 to Los Angeles. Even though the departure was still around 90 minutes away there was a number of passengers in the waiting area. I saw a number of people who lost their lives that day.

It affects you, but what most people tend to forget are the gate agents who board the passengers, the mechanics who sign off on the flight with the captain and the gate agent who closes the door with the flight attendant and pulls the jetway away. One can only imagine how they were affected and in all probability every time they hear of an accident to this day it brings back horrible memories. In many ways airline employees are more like family than in other professions.

I arrived in BUF shortly after the accident , my flight departed ORD before the crash, and upon arrival overheard two agents who were visibly upset speaking of the accident and the possibility of a departure delay. It's situations like that when you realize the magnitude of what happens when an accident occurs. It wasn't until I watched the news that night and realized how lucky I was, and how to appreciate each day you have.

To this day on the anniversary I light a candle for all those involved.



I wonder if Captain Lux flew you in from PHX? Were you on a DC-10? If so I bet he was your captain.
 
SmithAir747
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 6:23 am

In the late 1980s there was a TV advertisement for TIME LIFE Books series "Mysteries of the Unknown" (a series of books dealing with ESP, UFOs, and other mysteries.). In the first segment of the commercial, there is a man who is about to board a flight in Chicago but has an eerie feeling of dread and decides not to board it. It crashes shortly afterwards. I have been wondering if this story refers to AA191 because the flight is from Chicago and crashes shortly after departure.

Watch the commercial here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4zBYh2PUyk

SmithAir747
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 6:36 am

Cody wrote:
BUFJACK10 wrote:
There are so many people that are often affected by this type of tragedy. I was on the inbound from Phoenix that morning on a PHX-ORD-BUF after a job interview the previous day and remember looking back at the podium after disembarking and seeing the flight information as AA 191 to Los Angeles. Even though the departure was still around 90 minutes away there was a number of passengers in the waiting area. I saw a number of people who lost their lives that day.

It affects you, but what most people tend to forget are the gate agents who board the passengers, the mechanics who sign off on the flight with the captain and the gate agent who closes the door with the flight attendant and pulls the jetway away. One can only imagine how they were affected and in all probability every time they hear of an accident to this day it brings back horrible memories. In many ways airline employees are more like family than in other professions.

I arrived in BUF shortly after the accident , my flight departed ORD before the crash, and upon arrival overheard two agents who were visibly upset speaking of the accident and the possibility of a departure delay. It's situations like that when you realize the magnitude of what happens when an accident occurs. It wasn't until I watched the news that night and realized how lucky I was, and how to appreciate each day you have.

To this day on the anniversary I light a candle for all those involved.



I wonder if Captain Lux flew you in from PHX? Were you on a DC-10? If so I bet he was your captain.


I think not only did BUFJACK10 flew with Captain Lux, he also flew on the last successful flight of N110AA as well.
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JannEejit
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 9:01 am

Just wondering what became of runway 32R at ORD ? Did the accident influence it's closure, did it carry on in use for years after the accident ? Did the trailer park also close out of respect for the victims or for other reasons ? Looking at the area of the crash site on FR24 satellite imagery, there doesn't appear to be very much there now other than the open field and some sort of post industrial landworks. Is there a memorial of any sorts ?
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 9:18 am

JannEejit wrote:
Just wondering what became of runway 32R at ORD ? Did the accident influence it's closure, did it carry on in use for years after the accident ? Did the trailer park also close out of respect for the victims or for other reasons ? Looking at the area of the crash site on FR24 satellite imagery, there doesn't appear to be very much there now other than the open field and some sort of post industrial landworks. Is there a memorial of any sorts ?


On google's satellite view, the runway is still very much there. Now it's been deactivated because of the airport's layout modification to mostly east-west runways. The trailer park is still there. The DC-10 crashed in an open field that still exist. In the Chicago Tribune report linked upthread, you can see a photo of the crash site looking towards the runway. On the Chicago Magazine link also found in this thread, there's topic about the memorial.

https://www.google.ca/maps/place/O'Hare ... 87.9073214
 
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AirKevin
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 10:42 am

JannEejit wrote:
Just wondering what became of runway 32R at ORD ? Did the accident influence it's closure, did it carry on in use for years after the accident ?

It was definitely still in use for years after the crash because I was on a flight that took off from that runway back in 2007. As of now, the runway isn't there anymore because they're re-doing the entire runway layout to have parallel runways.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=770U8JaI1rY
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WA707atMSP
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 11:59 am

Cody wrote:
dfwjim1 wrote:
Cody wrote:
I recently worked with a former American mechanic who worked with some of the people that replaced that engine in Tulsa. He told me that in the end McDonnell Douglas ended up taking most of the lawsuits. But then ironically American ordered all those Super 80s shortly afterward.


Why did MDC take most of the lawsuit hits when they warned AA not to remove the wing engines in the manner they were doing it?



That is a good question and I cannot give you a good answer. He just told me that MDC took the majority of the lawsuits and then American bought all those MD-80s.


This is one of those long standing ANet rumors that has no basis in fact.

In 1982, McDonnell Douglas was seriously considering shutting down the MD-80 production line due to a lack of orders. Few airlines could afford new aircraft due to the 1979-82 recession. AA was in poor shape financially, and had recently cancelled an order for 757s and deferred delivery on some of their 767-200s. However, even though AA couldn't afford new aircraft, they desperately needed a fuel efficient twinjet for shorter routes.

In the fall of 1982, McDonnell Douglas offered to lease AA 20 MD-80s on exceptionally favorable terms, as part of a last ditch effort to bring in enough orders to keep the MD-80 production line open. AA accepted McDonnell Douglas' offer. Shortly after AA's MD-80s entered service in 1983, AA agreed to lease another 13 MD-80s from McDonnell Douglas. It was not until 1984, after the economy had recovered and AA had signed new labor agreements with their unions. and a full five years after the ORD DC-10 crash, that AA began ordering large numbers of MD-80s.

The issue of liability for the ORD crash had nothing to due with AA's decision to buy MD-80s. AA bought MD-80s because McDonnell Douglas made AA an offer that was too good to refuse. If there had been a quid pro quo that AA would buy MD-80s in exchange for McDonnell Douglas taking some of the blame for the ORD crash, (1) AA would have bought MD-80s in 1980 or 1981, around the time AA placed their 757 order, instead of waiting until the fall of 1982, and (2) AA would have purchased their first MD-80s from McDonnell Douglas, instead of receiving them on very flexible leases that placed most of the risks associated with the order on McDonnell Douglas.
 
WA707atMSP
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 12:31 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
CairnterriAIR wrote:
727LOVER wrote:


I KNOW that you are talking about Paris,1974...but in case there are some youngsters on here, please elaborate.

Also, why did one crash and the other, not? Cargo door blew out on both, correct?


AA Flight 96 experienced the exact rear cargo door failure what happened to THY Flight 981 two years later. AA flight 96 was able to be saved because there were only 56 passengers on board and nobody sitting in the section directly above the rear cargo hold. The lack of weight upon the floor allowed it to only partially collapse into the hold, keeping a few control lines intact...enough for the pilots to get the plane down safely. Interesting to note, a dead body in a coffin was being carried as cargo in the rear hold. It was ejected.
THY Flight 981 experienced the exact door failure, though with a full load of passengers’ weight on the floor, the collapse was total, all lines severed, no control. Down they went.


I seem to remember reading as well that there was some kind of stand-up bar in the back, and one of the flight attendants was briefly trapped because of the partially collapsed floor. I have no source other than to say "I read it a long time ago". Maybe someone here in the know can confirm.

The THY crash was filled to the brim because of a strike at London Heathrow airport by ground services, meaning ticketed passengers on BEA flights were out of luck. THY used a different service, hence it was not canceled. The plane was full because of all those "stranded" passengers thinking they were lucky, when indeed, they were not. Because of the extra weight, the flight controls were completely severed.

On a side note, I have always read that the two rows of seats that were ejected were rows of three - I have never heard of a DC-10 being anything other than 2x5x2. Was THY's fleet of DC-10's 3x3x3?


Your memory about the trapped flight attendant is correct. There were a number of books written about the DC-10 in the aftermath of the Paris crash; the crew of AA 96 was interviewed for the books, and one of the recollections that was shared was the story of the flight attendant who was briefly trapped.

However, AA 96 almost certainly would have crashed even though it was lightly loaded, had it not been for the exceptional airmanship of the DC-10's pilot, Bryce McCormick, When Captain McCormick transitioned to the DC-10 in 1972, he was very concerned about what would happen if the DC-10 suffered a total hydraulic failure. In his free time during the training process, he learned how to maneuver a DC-10 soley by adjusting the thrust of the aircraft's engines, without touching any of the other controls. As others have said, AA 96's hydraulic system was functional after the cargo door failure due to the light load. However, the partial floor collapse did jam most of the control cables to the DC-10's horizontal and vertical stabilizers. The rudder was jammed to starboard, which caused the DC-10 to continuously yaw to the right, and there was no way to un jam it.

Captain McCormick was able to maneuver the DC-10 back to Detroit despite its damage, mainly by adjusting the thrust of the left and right engines. Had a pilot who lacked McCormick's knowledge of the DC-10 been in command of the DC-10, it would have been almost impossible for the aircraft to land safely at Detroit.

Source: "Destination Disaster", by Paul Eddy, Elaine Potter, and Bruce Page. This book is long out of print, but it's readily available on the various used book web sites. I think it's the best of the books written about the AA 96 incident and Turkish DC-10 crash. Chapter 8, "The Ordeal of Bryce McCormick" has a detailed account of the AA 96 incident, including the following quote which sums up how terrifying it was: "The crew were put into a hotel near Detroit Airport. McCormick, (first officer) Whitney and (second officer) Burke are not inveterate drinkers, but that night, they had no trouble killing a quart bottle of Scotch".

McCormick demonstrated his then-unusual technique for controlling an aircraft through variable thrust to (among others) FAA and NTSB officials investigating the AA 96 incident. The technique pioneered by McCormick was subsequently used by the flight crew of UA 232 17 years later to make it to Sioux City for an emergency landing.
 
N292UX
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 2:38 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
N292UX wrote:
This right here is a very haunting photo. This is a photo of the doomed AA191 flight taxiing for departure at ORD on the exact flight that it would crash. Pretty chilling.

Was this photo taken by the same person who took the famous crash photos?

I'm not sure. If I could figure out the exact locations of where this one and the other ones were taken we could probably figure out (I'm not that familiar with ORD.)

But judging by how the quality of this particular photo seems better, I may be inclined to say they're different people. That being said, zoom probably wasn't the best on these cameras in 1979.

Update: I believe they were all taken by the same person, Michael Laughlin of the Chicago Tribune, according to some older articles I just found.
 
trnswrld
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 5:06 pm

BUFJACK10 wrote:
There are so many people that are often affected by this type of tragedy. I was on the inbound from Phoenix that morning on a PHX-ORD-BUF after a job interview the previous day and remember looking back at the podium after disembarking and seeing the flight information as AA 191 to Los Angeles. Even though the departure was still around 90 minutes away there was a number of passengers in the waiting area. I saw a number of people who lost their lives that day.

It affects you, but what most people tend to forget are the gate agents who board the passengers, the mechanics who sign off on the flight with the captain and the gate agent who closes the door with the flight attendant and pulls the jetway away. One can only imagine how they were affected and in all probability every time they hear of an accident to this day it brings back horrible memories. In many ways airline employees are more like family than in other professions.

I arrived in BUF shortly after the accident , my flight departed ORD before the crash, and upon arrival overheard two agents who were visibly upset speaking of the accident and the possibility of a departure delay. It's situations like that when you realize the magnitude of what happens when an accident occurs. It wasn't until I watched the news that night and realized how lucky I was, and how to appreciate each day you have.

To this day on the anniversary I light a candle for all those involved.



Holy crap, that is absolutely insane and I couldn’t imagine what you went through at the time...and the rest of your life really. So not only did you see some of the AA191 passengers sitting there as you got off the plane, but there is a chance the entire crew on your flight were also on AA191...not to mention you were on N110AA before the fatal flight with an engine that may have been hanging on for dear life your entire flight. Wow!
 
midway7
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 6:17 pm

N292UX wrote:
dfwjim1 wrote:
N292UX wrote:
This right here is a very haunting photo. This is a photo of the doomed AA191 flight taxiing for departure at ORD on the exact flight that it would crash. Pretty chilling.

Was this photo taken by the same person who took the famous crash photos?

I'm not sure. If I could figure out the exact locations of where this one and the other ones were taken we could probably figure out (I'm not that familiar with ORD.)


The photo of 191 taxing out to the runway appears to be taken from the top of the parking garage. The parking area you see in this picture has been replaced with today's Terminal 3 extension and Concourse L. If the picture was taken today, you would see International Terminal 5 behind the 191 aircraft.
 
SpaceshipDC10
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 6:49 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
N292UX wrote:
This right here is a very haunting photo. This is a photo of the doomed AA191 flight taxiing for departure at ORD on the exact flight that it would crash. Pretty chilling.

Was this photo taken by the same person who took the famous crash photos?


I guess yes since all four photos of the Chicago Tribune are labeled "Michael Laughlin/for the Chicago Tribune". In fact: "These photos were taken by Michael Laughlin, 24, a student pilot on a layover at O'Hare."

On the photo where the DC-10 is banked to the left, almost below it you can see a yellow cab that must be on the road leading to the Departures level. In between that taxi and the photographer, it must be the elevated road leading/leaving the main parking garage building visible on the last photo. The photographer was also at the Departure level, I guess, you can see the security barrier at the bottom of the photo.

Regarding the photo where the DC-10 is seen taxiing, I suspect it was taken from inside American Airlines terminal seen here in 1963, perhaps . I say from inside because on the photo, above the American title and further to the left, I notice the reflection of traffic signs gantry.
 
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SuperGee
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 8:39 pm

727LOVER wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Some things to remember about the DC-10:

1) We learned that a "gentleman's agreement" on fixing deadly flaws doesn't work. AA #92 showed us that the DC-10's cargo door was not secure in the old way; planes SHOULD have been grounded until fixed. But because it wasn't given urgency, 346 people paid the price..



I KNOW that you are talking about Paris,1974...but in case there are some youngsters on here, please elaborate.

Also, why did one crash and the other, not? Cargo door blew out on both, correct?


There is a book by John Godwin called "The Rise and Fall of The DC-10" which goes into detail about that very question of the cargo door (among other details of the DC-10 and it's history). I believe there are still copies available at used books sites such as Amazon's marketplace and others.

Interestingly enough, the author's view of the DC-10 is apparent at the outset (the cover shows a picture of a coffin with wings and tri-jets) and it was published in 1975, BEFORE AA191 (consequently having no info on that crash).
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 8:47 pm

SuperGee wrote:
727LOVER wrote:
PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
Some things to remember about the DC-10:

1) We learned that a "gentleman's agreement" on fixing deadly flaws doesn't work. AA #92 showed us that the DC-10's cargo door was not secure in the old way; planes SHOULD have been grounded until fixed. But because it wasn't given urgency, 346 people paid the price..



I KNOW that you are talking about Paris,1974...but in case there are some youngsters on here, please elaborate.

Also, why did one crash and the other, not? Cargo door blew out on both, correct?


There is a book by John Godwin called "The Rise and Fall of The DC-10" which goes into detail about that very question of the cargo door (among other details of the DC-10 and it's history). I believe there are still copies available at used books sites such as Amazon's marketplace and others.

Interestingly enough, the author's view of the DC-10 is apparent at the outset (the cover shows a picture of a coffin with wings and tri-jets) and it was published in 1975, BEFORE AA191 (consequently having no info on that crash).


OH MY GOODNESS - I REMEMBER READING THAT BOOK!!

There's a copy of that book in the downtown Bakersfield library that I checked out and read a couple of times - post AA191. I thought I was the only one who knew about the book!!

Interestingly, the author's ire seemed to be reserved for the Iberia DC-10 that crashed at landing at BOS, thankfully without casualties:

https://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19731217-2

I remember a freaky picture of the cabin, with seats pushed upwards from the impact. However, I never really understood why the author blamed this on the DC-10 - a microburst pushed the plane down, the pilot didn't recognize at the time (Eastern 66, Pan Am 759, Delta 191, and US Airways 1016 were all in the future), and the sink rate couldn't be stopped. Unfamiliarity with the plane caused the accident, not the plane itself.
 
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SuperGee
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 9:57 pm

As with 9/11, I can still remember exactly where I was and what I was doing when I got the news of this crash (on an interstate in Ohio on a beautiful, sunny day) over my car radio. The report said that the DC-10 had lost an engine. I can remember thinking those things are designed to fly with one engine out so how could losing an engine cause a crash? It was not till later that I found out that the aircraft had PHYSICALLY lost an engine!

I also remember reading later that the FO was flying the aircraft at the time of the crash and, since it was an optional safety feature at the time to have stick shakers on both columns (remind anyone of anything that is going on with the MAX today?) that AA at the time only had stick shakers on the captain’s column.

The report went on to say that had the plane had stick shakers on both columns, the FO would have been able to recognize the stall sooner and would most likely have been able to fly the plane out of the situation and back to a safe landing. Stick shakers have apparently been mandated on both columns of an aircraft since that accident.

This brings me to a question which I have had about stick shakers, since I am not a pilot. I have been under the impression that stick shakers have both an audible warning as well as a physical one. Is that true? If so, wouldn’t the FO of AA191 been able to HEAR the stall warning on the captain’s column and been able to react accordingly?
 
MeanGreen
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 10:05 pm

SuperGee wrote:
As with 9/11, I can still remember exactly where I was and what I was doing when I got the news of this crash (on an interstate in Ohio on a beautiful, sunny day) over my car radio. The report said that the DC-10 had lost an engine. I can remember thinking those things are designed to fly with one engine out so how could losing an engine cause a crash? It was not till later that I found out that the aircraft had PHYSICALLY lost an engine!

I also remember reading later that the FO was flying the aircraft at the time of the crash and, since it was an optional safety feature at the time to have stick shakers on both columns (remind anyone of anything that is going on with the MAX today?) that AA at the time only had stick shakers on the captain’s column.

The report went on to say that had the plane had stick shakers on both columns, the FO would have been able to recognize the stall sooner and would most likely have been able to fly the plane out of the situation and back to a safe landing. Stick shakers have apparently been mandated on both columns of an aircraft since that accident.

This brings me to a question which I have had about stick shakers, since I am not a pilot. I have been under the impression that stick shakers have both an audible warning as well as a physical one. Is that true? If so, wouldn’t the FO of AA191 been able to HEAR the stall warning on the captain’s column and been able to react accordingly?


The problem was the Captain’s stick shaker didn’t work because it was supplied by power from the engine that came off.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 10:12 pm

PSAatSAN4Ever wrote:
SuperGee wrote:
727LOVER wrote:


I KNOW that you are talking about Paris,1974...but in case there are some youngsters on here, please elaborate.

Also, why did one crash and the other, not? Cargo door blew out on both, correct?


There is a book by John Godwin called "The Rise and Fall of The DC-10" which goes into detail about that very question of the cargo door (among other details of the DC-10 and it's history). I believe there are still copies available at used books sites such as Amazon's marketplace and others.

Interestingly enough, the author's view of the DC-10 is apparent at the outset (the cover shows a picture of a coffin with wings and tri-jets) and it was published in 1975, BEFORE AA191 (consequently having no info on that crash).


OH MY GOODNESS - I REMEMBER READING THAT BOOK!!

There's a copy of that book in the downtown Bakersfield library that I checked out and read a couple of times - post AA191. I thought I was the only one who knew about the book!!

Negative. I've read it myself a long long time ago.
Captain Kevin
 
trnswrld
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 10:34 pm

MeanGreen wrote:
The problem was the Captain’s stick shaker didn’t work because it was supplied by power from the engine that came off.


This. It’s a sad and extensive chain of events that led to this disaster....like many crashes.
 
trnswrld
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 10:41 pm

One interesting fact that doesn’t really have any significance to anyone here, but my grand mother who I never got to meet died in her own private Rockwell Commander 112 on takeoff two days after AA191. 191 went down on a Friday and my grand mother crashed for unknown reasons during takeoff on Sunday. I was born about a year later in 1980. Crazy to think that she would have known about the AA disaster, and little did she know the same would happen to her two days later. My dad also told me that he remembers being told some of the same NTSB investigators from AA191 went to the the crash of her aircraft which was also in the Chicago area.
 
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SuperGee
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Tue May 28, 2019 11:44 pm

MeanGreen wrote:
SuperGee wrote:
As with 9/11, I can still remember exactly where I was and what I was doing when I got the news of this crash (on an interstate in Ohio on a beautiful, sunny day) over my car radio. The report said that the DC-10 had lost an engine. I can remember thinking those things are designed to fly with one engine out so how could losing an engine cause a crash? It was not till later that I found out that the aircraft had PHYSICALLY lost an engine!

I also remember reading later that the FO was flying the aircraft at the time of the crash and, since it was an optional safety feature at the time to have stick shakers on both columns (remind anyone of anything that is going on with the MAX today?) that AA at the time only had stick shakers on the captain’s column.

The report went on to say that had the plane had stick shakers on both columns, the FO would have been able to recognize the stall sooner and would most likely have been able to fly the plane out of the situation and back to a safe landing. Stick shakers have apparently been mandated on both columns of an aircraft since that accident.

This brings me to a question which I have had about stick shakers, since I am not a pilot. I have been under the impression that stick shakers have both an audible warning as well as a physical one. Is that true? If so, wouldn’t the FO of AA191 been able to HEAR the stall warning on the captain’s column and been able to react accordingly?


The problem was the Captain’s stick shaker didn’t work because it was supplied by power from the engine that came off.


Thanks for the response. Part of my original question remains however and that is (really hypothetical now, AA191 aside), if both engines had been operating and there was a stick shaker on only the Captain's column (as there would have been on all AA DC-10's in those days before the mandate for both columns), would the pilot without the stick shaker have been able to hear the stick shaker going off on the other column if the plane were approaching a stall?
 
trnswrld
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Wed May 29, 2019 12:04 am

SuperGee wrote:
Thanks for the response. Part of my original question remains however and that is (really hypothetical now, AA191 aside), if both engines had been operating and there was a stick shaker on only the Captain's column (as there would have been on all AA DC-10's in those days before the mandate for both columns), would the pilot without the stick shaker have been able to hear the stick shaker going off on the other column if the plane were approaching a stall?


I am not a DC-10 Pilot, or a commercial pilot at all, but based on my limited knowledge, I’ve always been under the impression that stick shaker is something that anyone in the cockpit would hear and maybe feel as well even if it was on just one column. I mean it would have to be in a cockpit which is naturally a loud environment with all sorts of vibrations etc etc. I’ll wait for a commercial/large aircraft pilot to chime in to verify.
 
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longhauler
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Wed May 29, 2019 1:55 am

trnswrld wrote:
SuperGee wrote:
Thanks for the response. Part of my original question remains however and that is (really hypothetical now, AA191 aside), if both engines had been operating and there was a stick shaker on only the Captain's column (as there would have been on all AA DC-10's in those days before the mandate for both columns), would the pilot without the stick shaker have been able to hear the stick shaker going off on the other column if the plane were approaching a stall?


I am not a DC-10 Pilot, or a commercial pilot at all, but based on my limited knowledge, I’ve always been under the impression that stick shaker is something that anyone in the cockpit would hear and maybe feel as well even if it was on just one column. I mean it would have to be in a cockpit which is naturally a loud environment with all sorts of vibrations etc etc. I’ll wait for a commercial/large aircraft pilot to chime in to verify.


You are correct. It doesn't matter on which control column the stick shaker is mounted ... both will "shake". And yes, it is very loud, everyone in the cockpit will hear it, probably the first few rows of seats in the cabin too.

That is why I always chuckled at the notion that because the First Officer was flying and the stick shaker was on the Captain's side it made a difference. (It wouldn't).

As correctly noted above, the issue was that the stick shaker had only one power source and that power source was lost with the engine. A second stick shaker was optional. That one would have been mounted on the First Officer's side with a different power source.

It is ironic to note, that 40 years later, the United States is still building jet transports that have safety systems with only one source, with the second optional ... and the FAA still approved it. We learned nothing!
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
glideslope900
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Wed May 29, 2019 2:38 am

longhauler wrote:
trnswrld wrote:
SuperGee wrote:
Thanks for the response. Part of my original question remains however and that is (really hypothetical now, AA191 aside), if both engines had been operating and there was a stick shaker on only the Captain's column (as there would have been on all AA DC-10's in those days before the mandate for both columns), would the pilot without the stick shaker have been able to hear the stick shaker going off on the other column if the plane were approaching a stall?


I am not a DC-10 Pilot, or a commercial pilot at all, but based on my limited knowledge, I’ve always been under the impression that stick shaker is something that anyone in the cockpit would hear and maybe feel as well even if it was on just one column. I mean it would have to be in a cockpit which is naturally a loud environment with all sorts of vibrations etc etc. I’ll wait for a commercial/large aircraft pilot to chime in to verify.


You are correct. It doesn't matter on which control column the stick shaker is mounted ... both will "shake". And yes, it is very loud, everyone in the cockpit will hear it, probably the first few rows of seats in the cabin too.

That is why I always chuckled at the notion that because the First Officer was flying and the stick shaker was on the Captain's side it made a difference. (It wouldn't).

As correctly noted above, the issue was that the stick shaker had only one power source and that power source was lost with the engine. A second stick shaker was optional. That one would have been mounted on the First Officer's side with a different power source.

It is ironic to note, that 40 years later, the United States is still building jet transports that have safety systems with only one source, with the second optional ... and the FAA still approved it. We learned nothing!



Based on the stellar safety record in the past 10 years and counting, I’d say we learned something.

With regards to the stick shaker, it should be mandated on both sides. You can’t count on the FO hearing it going off on the CA side. Throw in some other alarms and tunnel vision/fixation during an emergency and it would be very easy to tune out a sound.
 
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longhauler
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Wed May 29, 2019 4:10 am

glideslope900 wrote:
Based on the stellar safety record in the past 10 years and counting, I’d say we learned something.

I am going to guess you are not counting the 737 MAX and the MCAS having only one AOA source, with the second optional.

glideslope900 wrote:
With regards to the stick shaker, it should be mandated on both sides. You can’t count on the FO hearing it going off on the CA side. Throw in some other alarms and tunnel vision/fixation during an emergency and it would be very easy to tune out a sound.


You sure as hell CAN count on the First Officer hearing it going off on the Captain's side. It is not in any way subtle. Nor should it be.

It shakes BOTH sides regardless of which side on which it is mounted and it is LOUD. Very loud! As I said before, I have had Flight Attendants ask what it was when they were in the galley with the cockpit door closed and I would be very surprised if the first few rows of passengers could not hear it as well. The First Officer is not much further from it than the Captain.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
Raul1999
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Wed May 29, 2019 4:51 pm

After this accident at O'Hare, at the end of 1979 AA decided to change the identification sticker on his DC-10's fleet, changed "DC-10 Luxury Liner" to "American Airlines Luxury Liner". They did this for a good reason

Watch this video.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FVktgB4CcbU
 
glideslope900
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Wed May 29, 2019 8:09 pm

longhauler wrote:
glideslope900 wrote:
Based on the stellar safety record in the past 10 years and counting, I’d say we learned something.

I am going to guess you are not counting the 737 MAX and the MCAS having only one AOA source, with the second optional.

glideslope900 wrote:
With regards to the stick shaker, it should be mandated on both sides. You can’t count on the FO hearing it going off on the CA side. Throw in some other alarms and tunnel vision/fixation during an emergency and it would be very easy to tune out a sound.


You sure as hell CAN count on the First Officer hearing it going off on the Captain's side. It is not in any way subtle. Nor should it be.

It shakes BOTH sides regardless of which side on which it is mounted and it is LOUD. Very loud! As I said before, I have had Flight Attendants ask what it was when they were in the galley with the cockpit door closed and I would be very surprised if the first few rows of passengers could not hear it as well. The First Officer is not much further from it than the Captain.



I’m not saying the FO couldn’t hear it, I’m saying that in a fight for life situation when struggling to maintain control of the plane while other alarms are blaring, it would be very possible for the FO to tune out the sound of the Captain’s shaker.

I’m aware of how loud they are, I’m a pilot too.
 
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longhauler
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Thu May 30, 2019 12:42 am

glideslope900 wrote:
I’m not saying the FO couldn’t hear it, I’m saying that in a fight for life situation when struggling to maintain control of the plane while other alarms are blaring, it would be very possible for the FO to tune out the sound of the Captain’s shaker.

I’m aware of how loud they are, I’m a pilot too.


Then you know that the stick shaker on older transport aircraft is a small DC motor spinning an assymetric weight mounted to the front of the vertical part of the control column about a foot from the floor. My guess would be that when mounted on the Captain's side it is about 4 feet from the Captain's ears and slant distance from the First Officer's ears would be about 5 feet. It sounds like someone putting ball bearings in a blender. I can't imagine that under any circumstances (life situation or otherwise) that foot difference would be any quieter. Unless the pilot flying has (subconsciously) chosen to tune it out regardless of what side it is mounted.

You would also know that the stick shaker is not intended to be an aural warning. That is why on newer aircraft, it is quieter as it is not mounted so close to the pilots. It is intended to be a tactile warning, simulating an impending stall buffet to warn the pilots.

You would also know that the two control columns are attached. Regardless of what side the stick shaker is mounted, the two columns shake to the same intensity as a stall warning.
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
klm617
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Thu May 30, 2019 12:48 am

Could flight 191 have been saved if the take off was aborted ?
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Thu May 30, 2019 1:07 am

klm617 wrote:
Could flight 191 have been saved if the take off was aborted ?


I don't think they could have aborted take off seeing that the engine broke at rotation.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
trnswrld
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Thu May 30, 2019 2:31 am

klm617 wrote:
Could flight 191 have been saved if the take off was aborted ?

If they aborted the aircraft would have likely gone off the runway....what happens after that is anyone’s guess. Based on reports and investigations, it is said that had the Pilot not pitched up to reduce speed as per proper procedure, they would have kept the left wing from stalling and potentially been able to continue flying and save the aircraft.
 
CairnterriAIR
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Thu May 30, 2019 3:55 am

trnswrld wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Could flight 191 have been saved if the take off was aborted ?

If they aborted the aircraft would have likely gone off the runway....what happens after that is anyone’s guess. Based on reports and investigations, it is said that had the Pilot not pitched up to reduce speed as per proper procedure, they would have kept the left wing from stalling and potentially been able to continue flying and save the aircraft.


I’ve heard that quite often as well. But they most likely would not have been out of the woods. With fuel escaping out of the wing and live exposed wires from the missing engine, the two combined could very well have caused an explosion bringing the plane down. Remember the Air Canada DC-8 that lost an engine during a hard landing go around and ended up exploding during the second landing attempt? There would also be the problem of slowing down to land the plane without stalling the misconfigured slat wing. Remember that El Al cargo 747 that lost both engines off the left wing and it ended up crashing into an apartment building? It too could not slow down enough to land due to the damaged wing stalling out before the good one.

Any way you cut it, the crew of 191 had a battle on their hands no matter what.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Thu May 30, 2019 7:27 am

Had they escaped the initial situation, the crucial question becomes whether the crew would have been able to determine what stall speed they had, and not accidentally slow down too much when landing. And would that have been a doable landing speed. My guess is that the answer would have been yes... but some careful thinking would have been required.

Didn't the QF32 captain try out landing configuration, manoeuvrability, speeds etc while higher in the air, so they could figure out what the aircraft was capable of doing? That was some great piece of flying btw. Could also have ended differently. But we know more now than we did in the 70s and 80s.
 
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piedmontf284000
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Thu May 30, 2019 8:10 am

CairnterriAIR wrote:
trnswrld wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Could flight 191 have been saved if the take off was aborted ?

If they aborted the aircraft would have likely gone off the runway....what happens after that is anyone’s guess. Based on reports and investigations, it is said that had the Pilot not pitched up to reduce speed as per proper procedure, they would have kept the left wing from stalling and potentially been able to continue flying and save the aircraft.


I’ve heard that quite often as well. But they most likely would not have been out of the woods. With fuel escaping out of the wing and live exposed wires from the missing engine, the two combined could very well have caused an explosion bringing the plane down. Remember the Air Canada DC-8 that lost an engine during a hard landing go around and ended up exploding during the second landing attempt? There would also be the problem of slowing down to land the plane without stalling the misconfigured slat wing. Remember that El Al cargo 747 that lost both engines off the left wing and it ended up crashing into an apartment building? It too could not slow down enough to land due to the damaged wing stalling out before the good one.

Any way you cut it, the crew of 191 had a battle on their hands no matter what.


Totally agree. This flight was doomed as soon as it lifted off. Nothing would have been able to return this flight back to ORD in one piece. The sheer fact that the hydraulics were severed was catastrophic enough, add to that a fuel leak, loss of communications, and failure of electrical bus #1, all meant that the deck was stacked against the pilots. The flight lasted all of 50 seconds. Sans the stall and it probably would have lasted only a few minutes more which would have put it over populated areas. There is always a what-if in any disaster, but this one had none of those after it was airborne in my opinion. Had the pilots aborted take-off then there is plausibility in lives being saved but even that would have put the plane in harms way with leaking jet fuel and more then likely the plane running into something on the ground which would have triggered an explosion. In the end 271 people lost their lives, but not in vain, because in almost every other airplane crash there were safety measures that came to be because of it. May they all rest in eternal peace.
 
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longhauler
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Thu May 30, 2019 12:44 pm

CairnterriAIR wrote:
Remember the Air Canada DC-8 that lost an engine during a hard landing go around and ended up exploding during the second landing attempt?

It's funny you should mention this accident. The aircraft only got 8 miles north of YYZ when, in flames, the right wing left the airframe. The investigation stated that while the decision to do a go-around was not wrong, once the aircraft left the ground, the outcome was cast in stone. There was no way it could get back on the ground in time.

The interesting part ....

Sitting waiting next in line to take-off after the DC-8 arrival was a CPAir 727. They had a front row seat of the whole event. The Second Officer of that CP flight was the Captain of a Canadian DC-10 that rejected take-off above V1 in YVR, 25 years later and overran the end of the runway. During that investigation, he stated that the concept of staying on the ground when you can, stayed with him as a result of that DC-8 crash.

The YVR DC-10 investigation also stated that because McDD was (ahem) very optimistic about C2 Blackpower take-offs the outcome of continuing the take-off was questionable. (They were at MTOW)
Just because I stopped arguing, doesn't mean I think you are right. It just means I gave up!
 
BravoOne
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Thu May 30, 2019 1:50 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
Not much different here on ANet as evidenced by the by TheflyingDisk.


What's with the snark? I'm just saying it as it is. I know damn well that the Western DC-10 accident is pilot error, and the ANZ DC-10 accident is "an orchestrated litany of lies"...


Cool off. I have no idea what the litany of lies remark has to do with the accident, nor why you even added these two accidents to the thread? Neither case had anything to do with the AA flight, nor the airworthiness of the DC10.

Now back to our regular programming!
 
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deltacto
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Thu May 30, 2019 8:11 pm

BravoOne wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
Not much different here on ANet as evidenced by the by TheflyingDisk.


What's with the snark? I'm just saying it as it is. I know damn well that the Western DC-10 accident is pilot error, and the ANZ DC-10 accident is "an orchestrated litany of lies"...


Cool off. I have no idea what the litany of lies remark has to do with the accident, nor why you even added these two accidents to the thread? Neither case had anything to do with the AA flight, nor the airworthiness of the DC10.

Now back to our regular programming!


The "orchestrated litany of lies" comment refers to the investigation of Air New Zealand Mount Erebus crash ... and how the navigation computer was reprogrammed but the pilots not informed. read more http://www.erebus.co.nz/Investigation/MahonReport.aspx

Agreed .. that had nothing to do with the AA crash .. im just explaining what that comment referred to
 
Aurantiaco
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Thu May 30, 2019 8:32 pm

United787 wrote:
ord wrote:
I believe this is the article you are referring to:

http://www.chicagomag.com/Chicago-Magaz ... light-191/


Those photos are even more chilling than the other ones, especially the one showing the moment the plane contacts the ground :(

Image

Oh my god! Those images are awful to look at. When we’re these released? I haven’t seen these before.
 
BravoOne
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Thu May 30, 2019 9:10 pm

deltacto wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:

What's with the snark? I'm just saying it as it is. I know damn well that the Western DC-10 accident is pilot error, and the ANZ DC-10 accident is "an orchestrated litany of lies"...


Cool off. I have no idea what the litany of lies remark has to do with the accident, nor why you even added these two accidents to the thread? Neither case had anything to do with the AA flight, nor the airworthiness of the DC10.

Now back to our regular programming!


The "orchestrated litany of lies" comment refers to the investigation of Air New Zealand Mount Erebus crash ... and how the navigation computer was reprogrammed but the pilots not informed. read more http://www.erebus.co.nz/Investigation/MahonReport.aspx

Agreed .. that had nothing to do with the AA crash .. im just explaining what that comment referred to



Thanks as I do seem to recalll that article. The Collins RNAV(AN70) system that AZ and a few other carriers used was a real challenge but the reprogramming sounds like fake news at best.
 
PSAatSAN4Ever
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Thu May 30, 2019 9:43 pm

BravoOne wrote:
deltacto wrote:
BravoOne wrote:

Cool off. I have no idea what the litany of lies remark has to do with the accident, nor why you even added these two accidents to the thread? Neither case had anything to do with the AA flight, nor the airworthiness of the DC10.

Now back to our regular programming!


The "orchestrated litany of lies" comment refers to the investigation of Air New Zealand Mount Erebus crash ... and how the navigation computer was reprogrammed but the pilots not informed. read more http://www.erebus.co.nz/Investigation/MahonReport.aspx

Agreed .. that had nothing to do with the AA crash .. im just explaining what that comment referred to



Thanks as I do seem to recalll that article. The Collins RNAV(AN70) system that AZ and a few other carriers used was a real challenge but the reprogramming sounds like fake news at best.


In MacArthur Job's book "Air Disasters: Volume 2", the actual chart with the error is published next to the original - and correct - version. One number is different, but it was an absolutely vital number. The pilots followed the instructions to the letter/number, which led to them being wildly off course. Mr. Job also discusses the difficulties of navigation near the poles, hence why a different method is used. Fascinating read!
 
BravoOne
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Re: AA191 40 Year Anniversary coming up

Thu May 30, 2019 9:53 pm

Nav near the poles, aka Polar Navigation using INS can use a different application like grid nav but I can't imagine how that would have applied to this flight plan. As I recall the pilots widow was hard over on salvaging her husbans legacy.

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