Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Sat May 25, 2019 5:15 pm

astuteman wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
astuteman wrote:
There's no evidence to back that up, at all.

My track record is pretty good. Unfortunately when I get proven right and I start quoting myself from years prior my posts get deleted.

If you searched my username you might think I am a time traveller.

People called me paranoid about grandfathering.



It's nice that you can be so self satisfied with your own modesty.... I'm pleased for you.

Meanwhile, back on topic, where's the evidence that Airbus are losing financially on the A330NEO?

Rgds


I haven’t seen any evidence that Airbus is losing financially on the A330neo.

What is happening is that the airplanes are delivering late. There have been issues with the Trent 7000. ETOPS approval was late. Airlines like Air Senegal even had to fly the A330neos back to Toulouse and lease capacity from HiFly. Airlines like Azul are struggling to deal with the year long delay in the program

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... me-453693/

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... an-453946/

https://onemileatatime.com/air-senegal-leasing-a380/

I believe the various problems with the A330neo can be fixed. They probably are causing short term financial pain at Airbus, but I haven’t seen any indication that there is a long term financial problem with the A330neo
 
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flee
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Sun May 26, 2019 1:57 am

Late deliveries mean that airlines may claim compensation. Air Mauritius has done so and we can expect many others to do the same. So Airbus may be taking some financial hit on the A330 Neo, However, I believe that RR is equally liable.

Air Mauritius secures A330neo compensation from Airbus:
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... rom-airbus
 
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Sun May 26, 2019 7:58 am

strfyr51 wrote:
with Airbus freaking out over an airplane that hasn't even seen sheet metal cut?


What are Airbus doing that any rational person would characterise as "freaking out"? I suspect the only place they're freaking out is in your head.

RJMAZ wrote:
Airbus should kill the A330 ASAP. ... The A330NEO is now a net financial drain on Airbus.

They are winning A330 orders simply by selling it extremely cheap. The profit is small. The cheap price is also hurting A350-900 profit margin and stealing sales slowing A350 production ramp up. So the profit being lost on the A350 exceeds the profit gained on the A330NEO.


Given neither OEM breaks down their finances by model, you "know" all this how? Without supporting evidence, this is just your opinion and worth as little as anyone's opinion.
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Sun May 26, 2019 9:25 am

Airlines will always want clean sheet frame with optimization at all distance but the problem is they are not willing to pay the price premium over existing frames.

In my opinion, only a combined NSA+NMA frame can leverage the demand and keep costs reasonably low. Something like a 200-210 pax long haul config frame with 5000nm range that can also be configured to 250-260 pax short-medium haul with underrated engine and/or more cargo capability.
 
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Sun May 26, 2019 9:34 am

scbriml wrote:
strfyr51 wrote:
with Airbus freaking out over an airplane that hasn't even seen sheet metal cut?


What are Airbus doing that any rational person would characterise as "freaking out"? I suspect the only place they're freaking out is in your head.

RJMAZ wrote:
Airbus should kill the A330 ASAP. ... The A330NEO is now a net financial drain on Airbus.

They are winning A330 orders simply by selling it extremely cheap. The profit is small. The cheap price is also hurting A350-900 profit margin and stealing sales slowing A350 production ramp up. So the profit being lost on the A350 exceeds the profit gained on the A330NEO.


Given neither OEM breaks down their finances by model, you "know" all this how? Without supporting evidence, this is just your opinion and worth as little as anyone's opinion.

This assumes that airlines are thinking 'A330 versus A350' instead of 'A330 versus 787'.

Besides, as has been said multiple times, the A330neo's most useful role for Airbus is to force Boeing to lower their prices on the 787 and therefore lower their profit. Without the NEO, no airline looking in that size of the market would have anything to choose but the Dreamliner and Boeing would walk away with huge profits. Now, they can't.

Boeing's 748i to Airbus' A380 was exactly the same exercise, but in reverse. Not as competitive, but an effective tool for keeping the competition honest.
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bennett123
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Sun May 26, 2019 12:06 pm

Couple of points;

EIS of the 797 was quoted as 2025.
Given the issues with the MAX is that still realistic.

How many airlines would face problems if 2025 became 2026 or 2027. Also what assumptions are being made about ramping up production.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Sun May 26, 2019 1:08 pm

sabby wrote:
Airlines will always want clean sheet frame with optimization at all distance but the problem is they are not willing to pay the price premium over existing frames.

In my opinion, only a combined NSA+NMA frame can leverage the demand and keep costs reasonably low. Something like a 200-210 pax long haul config frame with 5000nm range that can also be configured to 250-260 pax short-medium haul with underrated engine and/or more cargo capability.


I disagree that all airlines always want clean sheet. Spare parts are a huge cost to airlines. Between purchasing new parts and overhauling or repairing existing parts, it is a big cost. Overtime costs improve as PMA vendors build competing parts and third party repair vendors create competition to the OEMs. New planes cost more for parts on top of infant mortality and reliability issues that require upgrades. Add to that training costs and it can result in airlines choosing an older design over a new one despite a fuel burn penalty.
 
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Sun May 26, 2019 1:22 pm

bennett123 wrote:
Couple of points; .......
How many airlines would face problems if 2025 became 2026 or 2027. Also what assumptions are being made about ramping up production.


This is likely the worrisome and panic button for both A and B. How are they going to ramp up the NSA!
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Oliver2020
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Sun May 26, 2019 2:05 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
bennett123 wrote:
Couple of points; .......
How many airlines would face problems if 2025 became 2026 or 2027. Also what assumptions are being made about ramping up production.


This is likely the worrisome and panic button for both A and B. How are they going to ramp up the NSA!


And just to include and to clarify this is not a poke a Boeing, you realistically have to take into account teething problems as well. I can't recall an a new AC that entered service this century that didn't have teething problems or delayed EIS due to teething problems. Ex:787 out of spec overweight, batteries, A380 wiring issue, wing rib cracking if I rem correctly, can't remember the A350 smooth EIS as far as I rem but delayed EIS due to teething if I'm not mistaken, 737MAX( we all know the current situation or rumored no need to rehash that in this forum just listing AC with problems with EIS) Numerous new engine designs that ground planes/ gliders at that point, even after EIS Pratt GTF( actual spool warping was the problem to clarify if I remember correctly) RR fan blade corrosion, I'm not familiar if GE had a problem with the max engine or 787 engine if so can someone please explain what it was as the two engines for the nma/797 are currently Pratt and GE?

What are you guys thoughts on what an airline would have to take that into consideration? My thoughts would be storing AC you are about to retire saving cycles on the aircraft just in case something happened. My opinion/fact: As I said with everything new there will be teething problems even if they show up years after EIS.(ex777 fuel freezing in flight clogging the FOHE).
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Sun May 26, 2019 3:23 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
with Airbus freaking out over an airplane that hasn't even seen sheet metal cut? They're projecting what they Hope. Not what they know, Boeing will DO what they DO . And no matter what Airbus will do something stupid to counter whatever Boeing comes up with. If Airbus would just put out their Product kine regardless of what Boeing does, they'd meet with Much Better 'success Ovrerall.

I like it how you're calling the 737MAX stupid; 5,000+ orders proves that stupid things can work.
 
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keesje
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Sun May 26, 2019 3:55 pm

Still until this day, it remains unclear how Boeing will respond to the A321NEO. The 737-10 doesn't match & Boeing has been dragging it's feet on the MoM / NMA 797 / 7K7 for many years. They need to come up with something. Meanwhile Airbus keeps slowly moving the goalposts by introducing enhanced A321 variants, expanding their marketshare.
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Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Sun May 26, 2019 4:43 pm

keesje wrote:
Still until this day, it remains unclear how Boeing will respond to the A321NEO. The 737-10 doesn't match & Boeing has been dragging it's feet on the MoM / NMA 797 / 7K7 for many years. They need to come up with something. Meanwhile Airbus keeps slowly moving the goalposts by introducing enhanced A321 variants, expanding their marketshare.


I think the Boeing strategy is quite clear. The 737-10 handles the short haul under 1000 mile routes. Boeing created a program office 2 years ago and has 1,000 engineers working on the NMA intending for a 2025 entry into service. Analysts may assume failure, but we don’t know how conservative the 2025 date is. The 777 went from launch to EIS in 5 years. We had a thread recently about the engineering methodology that Boeing plans on using (Model based engineering using Agile and Scrum).

viewtopic.php?t=1422737

This article shows that Airbus plans on competing with A321 upgrades and the A330neo and doesn’t plan launching new planes between the A321 and A330neo.
 
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Sun May 26, 2019 5:09 pm

keesje wrote:
Still until this day, it remains unclear how Boeing will respond to the A321NEO. The 737-10 doesn't match & Boeing has been dragging it's feet on the MoM / NMA 797 / 7K7 for many years. They need to come up with something. Meanwhile Airbus keeps slowly moving the goalposts by introducing enhanced A321 variants, expanding their marketshare.

I believe the NMA is the 2500+nm response. For TCON, the -10 does indeed compete. Long term, a NSA is required.

The A321 is a good aircraft, but the wingloading is far too high for the missions it is pressed into.

Lightsaber
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Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Sun May 26, 2019 5:18 pm

lightsaber wrote:
keesje wrote:
Still until this day, it remains unclear how Boeing will respond to the A321NEO. The 737-10 doesn't match & Boeing has been dragging it's feet on the MoM / NMA 797 / 7K7 for many years. They need to come up with something. Meanwhile Airbus keeps slowly moving the goalposts by introducing enhanced A321 variants, expanding their marketshare.

I believe the NMA is the 2500+nm response. For TCON, the -10 does indeed compete. Long term, a NSA is required.

The A321 is a good aircraft, but the wingloading is far too high for the missions it is pressed into.

Lightsaber


There are hundreds of widebodies in the Middle East and China flying 500-2500nm routes, so I would expect the NMA to be targeting those routes and not just the market over 2500nm.

Saudia and others fly everything from the A320 to the 777-300ER between Jeddah and Dubai which is 1000 miles. Most flights are widebodies

Singapore and others fly everything from the A320 to A380 between Singapore and Hong Kong which is 1500 miles. Most flights are widebodies.

An optimized widebody for short to medium haul could prove very popular on high capacity routes. The A330 has filled this role in recent years. The surge in A330 orders came from airlines in China and many of these airplanes are being used on short to medium haul
 
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Sun May 26, 2019 5:59 pm

lightsaber wrote:
keesje wrote:
Still until this day, it remains unclear how Boeing will respond to the A321NEO. The 737-10 doesn't match & Boeing has been dragging it's feet on the MoM / NMA 797 / 7K7 for many years. They need to come up with something. Meanwhile Airbus keeps slowly moving the goalposts by introducing enhanced A321 variants, expanding their marketshare.

I believe the NMA is the 2500+nm response. For TCON, the -10 does indeed compete. Long term, a NSA is required.

The A321 is a good aircraft, but the wingloading is far too high for the missions it is pressed into.

Lightsaber


I think the NSA might be closer than we think, but that's another topic.

I think the 4t MTOW growth of the A321XLR over the 4000NM A321LR shows Airbus probably has found a way to improve the wing rather then replacing it.

CFD has made significant progress over the last 20 years. E.g. bigger / different shaped slats, flaps, wingtips, wing twist, cowlings, control angles, beefing up structure in critical areas.

All still way cheaper and quicker than a new wing. It's not like Airbus never did it before.

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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Sun May 26, 2019 6:05 pm

lightsaber wrote:
The A321 is a good aircraft, but the wingloading is far too high for the missions it is pressed into.

Technically the wing is clearly suboptimal for higher weights and longer ranges. But then the same was true of the 77W as I recall...

In both cases the market seems prepared to accept the compromise – presumably there are offsetting advantages such as lower weight/better economics on shorter sectors, commonality across the range and lower capital cost.

Meanwhile Leeham have reported that Airbus are working on a different wingtip treatment (similar to the MAX?) for the XLR. And we know they are working on a medium-term plan for a bigger CFRP wing which they'll presumably launch at a point where a) they are confident it won't disrupt neo sales and b) they have worked out where they want to be strategically vis a vis Boeing NMA and potential NSA.
 
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Sun May 26, 2019 6:14 pm

tealnz wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
The A321 is a good aircraft, but the wingloading is far too high for the missions it is pressed into.

Technically the wing is clearly suboptimal for higher weights and longer ranges. But then the same was true of the 77W as I recall...

In both cases the market seems prepared to accept the compromise – presumably there are offsetting advantages such as lower weight/better economics on shorter sectors, commonality across the range and lower capital cost.

Meanwhile Leeham have reported that Airbus are working on a different wingtip treatment (similar to the MAX?) for the XLR. And we know they are working on a medium-term plan for a bigger CFRP wing which they'll presumably launch at a point where a) they are confident it won't disrupt neo sales and b) they have worked out where they want to be strategically vis a vis Boeing NMA and potential NSA.

The NMA will have the advantages of:
1. Latest generation engines
Higher Mach # compressors
Higher bypass ratio
More variable cycle (combine fan nozzle and varriable turbine cooling of LEAP?)
CMCs of GE9x
2. CFRP wings. Easier for underside laminar Flow
3. Folding wingtips. Allows much lower wing loading.
4. Higher cabin pressurization and higher cruising altitude.

I fully expect the MAX and NEO to evolve. I expect A321xLRs to sell. I expect the NMA to outsell the 767.


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tealnz
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Sun May 26, 2019 6:23 pm

lightsaber wrote:
The NMA will have the advantages of:
1. Latest generation engines
Higher Mach # compressors
Higher bypass ratio
More variable cycle (combine fan nozzle and varriable turbine cooling of LEAP?)
CMCs of GE9x
2. CFRP wings. Easier for underside laminar Flow
3. Folding wingtips. Allows much lower wing loading.

I fully expect the MAX and NEO to evolve.

Sure. I'm not an NMA sceptic. My point is simply that Airbus have plenty of options for a further iteration of the A32X to meet market expectations and to put pressure on an NMA from below. In the medium term that seems set to include a CFRP wing, possibly with folding wingtips to keep Code C rating.
 
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Sun May 26, 2019 6:40 pm

A321XLR is already good enough for many airlines since it's cheap to buy and it's a single aisle that could easily be used on big percentages of domestic routes.

The only problem gonna be the A330-800neo. Too much range and capabilities. They need to make regional version of A330-800neo to enter the NMA market.

But the other options for Airbus would be stretching the A321 by 3m-4m and get new wings and more powerful engines to put its size between B757-200 and B757-300. It would be cheaper to developed and it would definitely kill Boeing NMA on many market.
 
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Sun May 26, 2019 6:53 pm

luckyone wrote:
I realize we’re discussing different market spaces—but didn’t we already see this play out with the 787 vs. re-engined A330?


Yes, and what I got from that, and maybe Airbus too, is that the 787 was a lot of hype, and that the original A350 would have sold a thousand copies while the 787 was still being made airworthy, had they not listened to that hype. Then they could have done a bigger A350WXB (A370 ?) to compete even better with the 777.
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Sun May 26, 2019 8:06 pm

Aesma wrote:
luckyone wrote:
I realize we’re discussing different market spaces—but didn’t we already see this play out with the 787 vs. re-engined A330?


Yes, and what I got from that, and maybe Airbus too, is that the 787 was a lot of hype, and that the original A350 would have sold a thousand copies while the 787 was still being made airworthy, had they not listened to that hype. Then they could have done a bigger A350WXB (A370 ?) to compete even better with the 777.


I think we need to remember that the earlier version of B787 actually designed to be an extremely spacious 8-abreast aircraft. Just like the earlier 9-abreast B777.

If we look at the configurations for B787-8, with 8-abreast configuration, it would seated 20 Business Class seat and around 210 economy class seat. Putting them in similar capacity as B767-300ER or A300.
Which put them in the higher end of NMA.

But as we know it, B787 evolved into cramped 9-abreast widebody. Hence the capacity of the smallest B787-8 got bumped up to the capacity of A330-200. Essentially kicking them out of the NMA category into the Small Widebody category.

The Old A350 got such a backlash from Airlines that they need to developed the new one. It's just doesn't make sense for them to go through with it.
It's also would just became A330neo which they offers now after many airlines have changed of heart after 2015.
 
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Sun May 26, 2019 11:52 pm

keesje wrote:
I think the 4t MTOW growth of the A321XLR over the 4000NM A321LR shows Airbus probably has found a way to improve the wing rather then replacing it.

tealnz wrote:
Meanwhile Leeham have reported that Airbus are working on a different wingtip treatment (similar to the MAX?) for the XLR.

tealnz wrote:
In the medium term that seems set to include a CFRP wing, possibly with folding wingtips to keep Code C rating.

More specifically, this...mainly for gust load alleviation.....

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... em-458421/


Image
https://www.flightglobal.com/assets/get ... emid=77549


Image
https://www.flightglobal.com/assets/get ... emid=77550
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Babyshark
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Mon May 27, 2019 2:09 am

How about the A321 getting a second deck? Keep cockpit where it is, go all A380 on a narrow body.
 
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Mon May 27, 2019 7:59 am

RJMAZ wrote:
The 787-8 is slightly smaller, lighter and more fuel efficient than the A330-800. How can Airbus use the A330-800 in the MOM role?

Airbus has sold only 10 A330-800's. Boeing has sold 400+ 787-8's. If the market wants something slightly larger than the 797 it looks like the 787-8 will be the next size up.

Airbus should kill the A330 ASAP. I was saying they should have killed the A380 for years on this forum. The A330NEO is now a net financial drain on Airbus.

They are winning A330 orders simply by selling it extremely cheap. The profit is small. The cheap price is also hurting A350-900 profit margin and stealing sales slowing A350 production ramp up. So the profit being lost on the A350 exceeds the profit gained on the A330NEO.

Airbus could simply cede half of potential A330NEO orders to Boeing but if the other half goes to the A350 they will be winning.

Airbus should stop marketing the A330NEO try and upsell existing orders to the A350-900. Then Airbus should produce a cleansheet aircraft half way between the A321 and A350-900 in terms of range and size. The A330-900 sits extremely close to the A350 in terms of range and size, what is the point?

Spec wise the cleansheet would be like a A310NEO/A300NEO


you're missing the other variable in the game.
If selling the A330neo keeps 787 prices low it means less cash for Boeing.
If selling the A330neo at no margin means it destroys the 797 business case, even better.
 
VV
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Mon May 27, 2019 10:49 am

If they know how to counter the NMA then most probably they already know how good/bad the aircraft is.

Does anyone here have the definition of the NMA and how good/bad it compares to A321LR and A330-800?
 
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Mon May 27, 2019 11:03 am

VV wrote:
If they know how to counter the NMA then most probably they already know how good/bad the aircraft is.

Does anyone here have the definition of the NMA and how good/bad it compares to A321LR and A330-800?


Nobody does, until the Boeing board signed of on launching the program.
Most seems to agree it will be much lighter than a A330-800/788 and much heavier than a A321LR/737-10.
Most seem to agree there is a significant market segment where A300, 767-200, A310, 757 used to operate.

Image
https://aeroanalysis.net/boeing-797-sales-potential-175-billion/

We didn't see NMA launch 2 years ago, after they studied / discussed the business case for 4 years.
So it might be Boeing changed it's mind or can't close the business case.
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Newbiepilot
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Mon May 27, 2019 2:03 pm

keesje wrote:
We didn't see NMA launch 2 years ago, after they studied / discussed the business case for 4 years.
So it might be Boeing changed it's mind or can't close the business case.


Or maybe it hasn’t been launched because Boeing wants more firm numbers on production price and delivery date?

I think you keep forgetting that:

Program launch = airplane orders.

Airplane orders = contracts for sales price and delivery dates

The A350 is a case study on what happens when airplane is launched too early in the development cycle. I feel you casting doubt at Boeing for not following the A350 path. Airbus had to renegotiate every order when the airplane design changed and relaunch the airplane. People seem to forget that the initial A350 orders at launch in 2005 were for 2010 deliveries, yet the first actual delivery was 2015. Launching too early before the design was clear resulted in Airbus missing commitments by 5 year. The airplane sufficiently different and late from what airlines ordered that 3 of the initial 5 airlines ordering the airplane ended up cancelling the order. In the 5 year delay between 2010 and 2015, one of the launch customers even went bankrupt. Let’s not forget that Airbus ended up making a strategy change again after the relaunch by cancelling the A350-800

I think it is clear Boeing doesn’t want to launch an airplane that the airlines don’t want

Image

Boeing waiting to launch 5 years before targeted EIS doesn’t mean there is no business case. It could mean that Boeing is going to let the design (and program office with a thousand engineers) progress to the point of being able to actually meet the commitments to the airlines.

I think Airbus knows what Boeing plans to do. Boeing has shared the plans with dozens of airlines, so someone has undoubtedly shown Airbus. Airbus believes for now that the A321 and A330neo is enough to compete. That strategy may change before 2025, but I think Airbus has less doubt than you regarding what Boeing can do. It sounds like they are confident in the A321 and A330neo. It also sounds like Airbus doesn’t want to make the mistake again of having to renegotiate contracts after launch when designs change, which is why they may have shelved the A321 stretch concept before going to airlines and instead offer a version that just increases MTOW

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1391201

Image

https://simpleflying.com/qantas-797-vs-a321-lr/
 
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keesje
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Mon May 27, 2019 2:49 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
I think it is clear Boeing doesn’t want to launch an airplane that the airlines don’t want


I fully agree with you. Boeing doesn’t want to launch an airplane that the airlines don’t want. Shit happens though & they launched a few (787-3, 747-8, 737-9, 737-7).

Newbiepilot wrote:
Boeing waiting to launch 5 years before targeted EIS doesn’t mean there is no business case. It could mean that Boeing is going to let the design (and program office with a thousand engineers) progress to the point of being able to actually meet the commitments to the airlines.


That is a very good strategy, taking well considered, deliberate decisions, discussing with customers, fully understanding their needs, meticulously tuning the business case. On the other hand, not listening, dragging your feet, avoiding decisions & aiming at short term bonusses, overpromising & then rushing half bakes solutions isn't unseen either. It's a fine balance and differect perspectives I guess.
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Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Mon May 27, 2019 3:36 pm

keesje wrote:
VV wrote:
If they know how to counter the NMA then most probably they already know how good/bad the aircraft is.

Does anyone here have the definition of the NMA and how good/bad it compares to A321LR and A330-800?


Nobody does, until the Boeing board signed of on launching the program.
Most seems to agree it will be much lighter than a A330-800/788 and much heavier than a A321LR/737-10.
Most seem to agree there is a significant market segment where A300, 767-200, A310, 757 used to operate.

We didn't see NMA launch 2 years ago, after they studied / discussed the business case for 4 years.
So it might be Boeing changed it's mind or can't close the business case.


So what's your point?
 
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keesje
Posts: 12814
Joined: Thu Apr 12, 2001 2:08 am

Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Mon May 27, 2019 4:19 pm

VV wrote:
keesje wrote:
VV wrote:
If they know how to counter the NMA then most probably they already know how good/bad the aircraft is.

Does anyone here have the definition of the NMA and how good/bad it compares to A321LR and A330-800?


Nobody does, until the Boeing board signed of on launching the program.
Most seems to agree it will be much lighter than a A330-800/788 and much heavier than a A321LR/737-10.
Most seem to agree there is a significant market segment where A300, 767-200, A310, 757 used to operate.

We didn't see NMA launch 2 years ago, after they studied / discussed the business case for 4 years.
So it might be Boeing changed it's mind or can't close the business case.


So what's your point?

Boeing & you don't know.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
VV
Posts: 609
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Mon May 27, 2019 6:24 pm

keesje wrote:
VV wrote:
keesje wrote:
Nobody does, until the Boeing board signed of on launching the program.
Most seems to agree it will be much lighter than a A330-800/788 and much heavier than a A321LR/737-10.
Most seem to agree there is a significant market segment where A300, 767-200, A310, 757 used to operate.

We didn't see NMA launch 2 years ago, after they studied / discussed the business case for 4 years.
So it might be Boeing changed it's mind or can't close the business case.

So what's your point?

Boeing & you don't know.

Indeed, I do not know.
 
Newbiepilot
Posts: 3635
Joined: Tue Aug 30, 2016 10:18 pm

Re: Reuters : Airbus to counter the "NMA"by the existing 330neo and the A21N

Mon May 27, 2019 7:27 pm

keesje wrote:
VV wrote:
keesje wrote:

Nobody does, until the Boeing board signed of on launching the program.
Most seems to agree it will be much lighter than a A330-800/788 and much heavier than a A321LR/737-10.
Most seem to agree there is a significant market segment where A300, 767-200, A310, 757 used to operate.

We didn't see NMA launch 2 years ago, after they studied / discussed the business case for 4 years.
So it might be Boeing changed it's mind or can't close the business case.


So what's your point?

Boeing & you don't know.


Actually yes Boeing does know. That is exactly what Gate 3 is:

Behind the scenes, work progresses on Boeing’s design for the 7K7 New Mid-Market Airplane (NMA). The program held its Gate 3 milestone review several weeks ago, stopping just short of bringing its proposal to the board of directors for its green-light, according to two people familiar with the reviews. “They just didn’t formally close [the development gate] due to the Max situation,” said one NMA staffer. “They are telling us no let up and no change to the schedule.” Boeing has said it wants to have the airplane ready for 2025.


https://theaircurrent.com/company-cultu ... x-crashes/

The Boeing program office completed the review to determine if the airplane is ready to offer, but stopped short of presenting to the board of directors

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