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Airlines0613
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 5:54 pm

Pyrex wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Airlines0613 wrote:
IIRC, the Boeing 787 is a cash cow for Boeing now and has been profitable for a couple of years already. Nothing compared to the Airbus A380, which has been reported as a money loser in all its years in production.

The 787 is a cash cow due to the deferred cost (a.k.a. Damocles sword); if Airbus was to defer or write-off all A380 development cost, it would have been a profitable program.


Cash has nothing to do with accounting...

Yet, the Boeing 787 is a lot closer and will eventually pay off the deferred cost, if it hasn’t already, while the Airbus A380 will never be able to. If I’m correct, Airbus owes Germany hundreds of millions of dollars. Boeing on the other hand, doesn’t owe any money to anybody, but to itself. Technically speaking, it’s been paid off.
 
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Revelation
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 6:13 pm

frigatebird wrote:
But would Airbus have developed something else if they had decided not to launch the A380? Heard about a possible A30X at that time... would have been a far cheaper snafu IMO.

A quick Google suggests A30X was more of a 2010 era idea, A3XX dates back to the 90s if not earlier.

Strategically, at the high end of the market Airbus thought the A340 would hold its own against 777, and that the only way to compete with 747 was to make A3XX be in its own size class.

None of that turned out to be correct.

Most 744s were bought for their range and most customers had already began to cut their 747 orders.

The A340 was fine for its time but by the time 777W was in service it was game over for the A340.

par13del wrote:
Revelation wrote:
The money to pay for the MAX screw up has to come from somewhere, and launching an expensive clean sheet targeted at a challenging area of the market is not likely to happen in the near term, IMHO.

If, as per A.Net wisdom, the USA Congress is in Boeing's pocket, they could use the MAX issue to make a case for Launch Aid to allow them to remain competitive with Airbus and preserve USA jobs. The financial liabilities created by the crash and the groundings and the perceived notion that folks will shy away from purchasing or travelling on a MAX a/c can be used to create a case, and if you are already preaching to the choir.......

Just do everything at "market rates" and it all passes muster.
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9Patch
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 6:17 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
"Cost" to a company means complete expense; if the product sells (and it did), that cost is partially recouped by each sale and that cost now becomes an investment. If the return on investment is positive, the final cost is "0".


You tell us the cost of the A380 wasn't 30 billion dollars or Euros.
But when asked what the cost was you answer a different question.
I'm seeking a number not a definition.
And before you tell me again to ask Airbus, what do you think it cost?
Then you tell us the cost of shutting down the line was most likely less than keeping it open, which seems to contradict an earlier statement that they recouped costs by selling airplanes.
Last edited by 9Patch on Wed May 22, 2019 6:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
musman9853
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 6:19 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
musman9853 wrote:
Kindanew wrote:
The A380 may have been a commercial failure but the engineering and management lessons learnt are clearly apparent.


Question is are those lessons worth 30B? I'm sure if they had built the a350 instead of the a380 they'd have teething issues too, but at least that program would have been a commercial success

It didn't cost Airbus 30B (not sure if you're talking Euro or USD, but it doesn't even matter); some of those cost were recouped, not all though.


cost like 25B USD. and they lost most of it.
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klm617
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 6:36 pm

MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
Spinning any lie into being truth is the new normal now, whether it comes from Airbus or Boeing.


It is the new way of doing business in the world tell them what they want to hear and for the most part it will be believed because it makes people feel good. And if you get called out for bending the truth then you just say that you were misunderstood and that's not what you meant.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 7:20 pm

The A380 was made into a failure by terminating its production before the market for it has developed. So the A380 is a success but it is not being allowed to become one.
The market demand for the A380 will be clear in 2030.

If you look at the A320, 10 years after it EISed, only 1000 had been produced.
The only difference with the A380 is that the A320 had a huge backlog after that first decade of operation because the narrowbody market was expanding.
The A320 was the right product at the right time.

By 2030, aircraft technologies will have advanced enough to make an unrivalled A380X.

My advice to Airbus is: don't destroy the blueprints, don't destroy the tooling, keep the suppliers on standby.

Never say never.
 
Antarius
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 7:24 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
The A380 was made into a failure by terminating its production before the market for it has developed. So the A380 is a success but it is not being allowed to become one.
The market demand for the A380 will be clear in 2030.

If you look at the A320, 10 years after it EISed, only 1000 had been produced.
The only difference with the A380 is that the A320 had a huge backlog after that first decade of operation because the narrowbody market was expanding.
The A320 was the right product at the right time.

By 2030, aircraft technologies will have advanced enough to make an unrivalled A380X.

My advice to Airbus is: don't destroy the blueprints, don't destroy the tooling, keep the suppliers on standby.

Never say never.


Airbus a380 fanboys said the market was at EIS. Then in 2010. Then 2015. Then 2018. Now 2030. Forever moving target.

By 2030, the a380 will be 23 years post EIS. Obsolete from a restarting production standpoint. Not to mention a a35J or 77X with a few PIPs would completely obliterate any justification long before 2030.
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FlyingElvii
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 7:34 pm

skystar767 wrote:
Oh please it’s like the kid who comes in last and get a prize. It’s makes them feel good. Airbus wanted to build something bigger than the 747 to prove a point. Don’t get me wrong I have flown on the airbus A380 with five different airlines and loved it.

Government subsidies at work.
It was as much about creating gov-subsidized jobs, as it was bragging rights.
 
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Kindanew
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 7:43 pm

Airbus and the government funders must have believed the sales projections, at least at the start?

There are better and more profitable ways to create government jobs it that was the original objective.
 
speedbird52
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 7:46 pm

acjbbj wrote:
9Patch wrote:
Guillaume Faury, who took over as CEO in April from retiring Tom Enders, said at the Airbus Innovation Days pre-Paris Air Show briefing yesterday, that the A380 led the path to the successful development and production of the successful A350 and the transformation of Airbus into it is today.


The A380 was an industrial if not a sales success because in 2006, problems in final assembly exposed the cultural and industrial mismatch between the French and German plants where the A380 is produced and assembled.

https://leehamnews.com/2019/05/22/a380- ... s-new-ceo/

Thant was an expensive transformation!

Did Airbus really need to do the A380 program first in order to identify this 'cultural mismatch' and make a successful A350?


I'm laughing out loud right now...

But really. The A380 is the biggest and worst failure in all of commercial aviation.

Really? What about Concorde? The L1011 was such a big failure Lockheed haven't been in the commercial business since.
 
airbazar
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 7:51 pm

He never claimed that it was a financial success so I agree with him.

speedbird52 wrote:
Really? What about Concorde? The L1011 was such a big failure Lockheed haven't been in the commercial business since.

The MD-11 was even worse than the L1011. The 748i hasn't exactly broken any sales records. And if we add Russian and Chinese airliners the list will just be too long to keep up with :)
Last edited by airbazar on Wed May 22, 2019 7:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
RalXWB
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 7:53 pm

This turned into another A380 bashing... As expected.
 
sciing
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 8:12 pm

9Patch wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
"Cost" to a company means complete expense; if the product sells (and it did), that cost is partially recouped by each sale and that cost now becomes an investment. If the return on investment is positive, the final cost is "0".


You tell us the cost of the A380 wasn't 30 billion dollars or Euros.
But when asked what the cost was you answer a different question.
I'm seeking a number not a definition.
And before you tell me again to ask Airbus, what do you think it cost?

30B cost for at least 50B revenue would be not so bad. But I guess the cost were more in the 80B range.
But for the A320 I guess the cost sum up around 400B. What a stupidity to do such program, idiots!
 
WayexTDI
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 8:24 pm

9Patch wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
"Cost" to a company means complete expense; if the product sells (and it did), that cost is partially recouped by each sale and that cost now becomes an investment. If the return on investment is positive, the final cost is "0".


You tell us the cost of the A380 wasn't 30 billion dollars or Euros.
But when asked what the cost was you answer a different question.
I'm seeking a number not a definition.
And before you tell me again to ask Airbus, what do you think it cost?
Then you tell us the cost of shutting down the line was most likely less than keeping it open, which seems to contradict an earlier statement that they recouped costs by selling airplanes.

Whatever Airbus spent on the development of the A380 was not pure cost:
- some was recouped when they sold airplanes;
- some was used to develop new technologies that are being used on new models.
So, that 30B (of whatever currency) was not pure cost; some of it (I don't know which proportion) was investment into the program and into new technology.

Since you love to just snip sentences as you like so you can direct the conversation to your point, here was my original comment:
musman9853 wrote:
Kindanew wrote:
The A380 may have been a commercial failure but the engineering and management lessons learnt are clearly apparent.


Question is are those lessons worth 30B? I'm sure if they had built the a350 instead of the a380 they'd have teething issues too, but at least that program would have been a commercial success

It didn't cost Airbus 30B (not sure if you're talking Euro or USD, but it doesn't even matter); some of those cost were recouped, not all though.

"It didn't cost Airbus 30B" means "even if Airbus spent 30B, that was not pure cost, some of it was investment".
Got it now?
 
tropical
Posts: 103
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 8:27 pm

klm617 wrote:
MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
Spinning any lie into being truth is the new normal now, whether it comes from Airbus or Boeing.


It is the new way of doing business in the world tell them what they want to hear and for the most part it will be believed because it makes people feel good. And if you get called out for bending the truth then you just say that you were misunderstood and that's not what you meant.


It is not a new thing at all. Biased/ truth bending statements or claims have existed as long as businesses and media has.

In fact many people might argue that it is the *duty* of a company's representative to big up their products and try to make them sound as successful as possible, even when the truth lies elsewhere. You won't hear the CEO of Airbus claim the A380 is 'a failure' anymore than you'd hear the CEO of Boeing admitting the A321NEO is a superb plane and clearly superior to its Boeing direct competitor. What good such brutal honesty is ever going to do?

It's all a PR game, and it makes little difference to direct sales anyway. Customers and educated observers are not stupid. You look at the websites of both A & B and you'll see bold statements made for every one of their products. The A340 being better than the 777 according to A, or the 767 being better than the A330 according to B. To expect any different is unthinkable.
 
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Revelation
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 8:39 pm

tropical wrote:
In fact many people might argue that it is the *duty* of a company's representative to big up their products and try to make them sound as successful as possible, even when the truth lies elsewhere. You won't hear the CEO of Airbus claim the A380 is 'a failure' anymore than you'd hear the CEO of Boeing admitting the A321NEO is a superb plane and clearly superior to its Boeing direct competitor. What good such brutal honesty is ever going to do?

It's all a PR game, and it makes little difference to direct sales anyway. Customers and educated observers are not stupid. You look at the websites of both A & B and you'll see bold statements made for every one of their products. The A340 being better than the 777 according to A, or the 767 being better than the A330 according to B. To expect any different is unthinkable.

The Airbus CEO saying "the A380 was a success for Airbus" is the same kind of statement as the Boeing CEO saying the MCAS fix "makes a safe plane safer".

Each statement has some "truthiness", but how much is very debatable, yet in both cases it's being said with a straight face.
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tropical
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 9:09 pm

Revelation wrote:
tropical wrote:
In fact many people might argue that it is the *duty* of a company's representative to big up their products and try to make them sound as successful as possible, even when the truth lies elsewhere. You won't hear the CEO of Airbus claim the A380 is 'a failure' anymore than you'd hear the CEO of Boeing admitting the A321NEO is a superb plane and clearly superior to its Boeing direct competitor. What good such brutal honesty is ever going to do?

It's all a PR game, and it makes little difference to direct sales anyway. Customers and educated observers are not stupid. You look at the websites of both A & B and you'll see bold statements made for every one of their products. The A340 being better than the 777 according to A, or the 767 being better than the A330 according to B. To expect any different is unthinkable.

The Airbus CEO saying "the A380 was a success for Airbus" is the same kind of statement as the Boeing CEO saying the MCAS fix "makes a safe plane safer".

Each statement has some "truthiness", but how much is very debatable, yet in both cases it's being said with a straight face.


Well that particular example is perhaps not the best comparison imo, as it concerns a safety issue. But I get what you're saying. A more apt comparison might be what Boeing's CEO was saying when the A320 NEO was launched: that never mind the forthcoming MAX, the NEO was only just catching up with the 737NG performance-wise. A claim that to most of us was not just wrong but laughably so, as I am sure the A380 claim will be to many. But other than the sea of raised eyebrows and sarcastic smiles, there were no consequences of such claim for the Boeing CEO, and why should there be?
 
Bricktop
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 9:24 pm

RalXWB wrote:
This turned into another A380 bashing... As expected.

Recognizing that the A380 has flaws is not “bashing” as you love to portray. It is an analytical review of reality. It barely reached break even on a per frame basis let alone recover its development costs. To dismiss any critique whatsoever as bashing is just slavish devotion, the stuff of a lovestruck teen, not objectivity. Of course, that needs to be differentiated from negativity towards Boeing. THAT is objective, and never “bashing”, correct?
 
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aemoreira1981
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 9:30 pm

Without the A380, there is likely no A350XWB, as the A350XWB, the only recent clean-sheet wide-body from Airbus other than the A380, ported technology from the A380. The cockpit layout and controls are similar between the two, for starters. (The A300, A310, A330ceo/neo, and A340 all share the same fuselage and nose section.)

The problem for Airbus is that while the A340-200/300 was good competition for the Boeing 777-200(ER), once Boeing launched longer-range variants, the A340-500/600 should never have been developed, with a concentration on the A350, instead of the A380. An A340-based freighter would have sold much more than the A330 freighter did based on a 275t MTOW.
 
grbauc
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 9:42 pm

Vladex wrote:
b727fan wrote:
BlueSky1976 wrote:
The only success of A380 is that Airbus will go down in history of aviation as the builder of the biggest commercial aircraft - that's all. Marketwise, it failed and the only profit for Airbus Industrie comes from maintenance contracts...

Agreed! Lets not forget that EK sales is perhaps the most successful endeavor for the giant!


I believe other airlines abandoned A380 in order to not compete with Emirates and any new airline believed that they had to be as big as Emirates in order to buy A380. It's all about fear and greed.



You bring something up that I've wondered.. EK made it a success/passengers love it but it missed the mark imop. Its not looking to be the long term hit, but I believe it did enough for Airbus that there can be a case made.

So if most airlines only ordered 5-25 of them would more airlines of gotten them for/has a crown jewel like and trunk routes. I believe No though. Its just too costly unfortunately
 
filipinoavgeek
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 10:00 pm

I wonder how hard is it to see here:
In terms of sales and finances, then compared to expectations, the A380 is definitely a failure or at the very least an underachiever. It never came even close to the expectations for success that people had for it. And other than Emirates, most of the other airlines that ordered it never really made it work as good as they hoped, to the point that some (notably Malaysian) are even regretting their orders.

However, in terms of PR and passenger views, it was a big win for Airbus. The luxury and comfort associated with it gained praise from most people who flew it, and passengers loved flying it. If anything, even if things didn't turn out the way they hoped for and the case may have never been there from the start, merely surpassing the 747 was a major technological achievement and helped boost Airbus's reputation. Unfortunately, reality speaks, and passenger reviews rarely if ever determine sales, economics do, and that's what doomed the A380.
 
tropical
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 10:16 pm

Wasn't there also a significant change in the price of aviation fuel between the time the A380 was conceived and the time it entered service? That might have played a part too...
 
Antarius
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 10:23 pm

filipinoavgeek wrote:
I wonder how hard is it to see here:
In terms of sales and finances, then compared to expectations, the A380 is definitely a failure or at the very least an underachiever. It never came even close to the expectations for success that people had for it. And other than Emirates, most of the other airlines that ordered it never really made it work as good as they hoped, to the point that some (notably Malaysian) are even regretting their orders.

However, in terms of PR and passenger views, it was a big win for Airbus. The luxury and comfort associated with it gained praise from most people who flew it, and passengers loved flying it. If anything, even if things didn't turn out the way they hoped for and the case may have never been there from the start, merely surpassing the 747 was a major technological achievement and helped boost Airbus's reputation. Unfortunately, reality speaks, and passenger reviews rarely if ever determine sales, economics do, and that's what doomed the A380.


The latter portion is overstated. Sure, the a380 was considered to be special by passengers, but any effect of seeking the a380 would have been felt by EK and the ilk, not Airbus. No airline chose a a330neo or a350 because of the a380; they chose them because they are good planes that fit their needs. Most passengers cant tell any planes apart (other than the a380 and the 747), so basically no one chooses to fly on an Airbus specifically since Airbus also made the a380. Complete non-factor for Airbus from a future passenger perspective.

Also, why is surpassing the 747 an achievement? The An-225 is bigger than both. Unless that size added value, may as well talk about the Spruce Goose.
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IWMBH
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 10:45 pm

The A380 was an engineering success but definitely not a commercial success. I doubt if they even played even on the model. The Boeing wide body strategy is beating that of Airbus and their is no way around that.
 
KentB27
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 11:01 pm

Spoken like a true CEO.
 
Vladex
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 11:26 pm

Bricktop wrote:
RalXWB wrote:
This turned into another A380 bashing... As expected.

Recognizing that the A380 has flaws is not “bashing” as you love to portray. It is an analytical review of reality. It barely reached break even on a per frame basis let alone recover its development costs. To dismiss any critique whatsoever as bashing is just slavish devotion, the stuff of a lovestruck teen, not objectivity. Of course, that needs to be differentiated from negativity towards Boeing. THAT is objective, and never “bashing”, correct?

You are talking about made up financials , not any flaws. The flaws would be passengers and crews revolting and planes crashing from time to time.
 
Antarius
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 11:28 pm

Vladex wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
RalXWB wrote:
This turned into another A380 bashing... As expected.

Recognizing that the A380 has flaws is not “bashing” as you love to portray. It is an analytical review of reality. It barely reached break even on a per frame basis let alone recover its development costs. To dismiss any critique whatsoever as bashing is just slavish devotion, the stuff of a lovestruck teen, not objectivity. Of course, that needs to be differentiated from negativity towards Boeing. THAT is objective, and never “bashing”, correct?

You are talking about made up financials , not any flaws. The flaws would be passengers and crews revolting and planes crashing from time to time.


If the a380 was soooooo successful, it would be selling like hotcakes, not having production end 12 years after EIS.

The failure of the a380 has nothing to do with Boeing
Your bias is showing. :roll:
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9Patch
Topic Author
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 11:47 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:

By 2030, aircraft technologies will have advanced enough to make an unrivalled A380X.

My advice to Airbus is: don't destroy the blueprints, don't destroy the tooling, keep the suppliers on standby.


How will a 30 year old design compete with a new clean sheet design?

How do you keep suppliers on standby for eleven years? What does 'standby' even mean?
 
Antarius
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 11:52 pm

9Patch wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:

By 2030, aircraft technologies will have advanced enough to make an unrivalled A380X.

My advice to Airbus is: don't destroy the blueprints, don't destroy the tooling, keep the suppliers on standby.


How will a 30 year old design compete with a new clean sheet design?

How do you keep suppliers on standby for eleven years? What does 'standby' even mean?


It means that someone has no idea what they are saying.

Airbus, the company that made the a380 and for years trumpeted its awesomeness, decided to shut the line down 12 years after EIS. That should be the end of the discussion of the future viability of the airframe.

Their CEO is saving some face and putting a positive spin on things, as any CEO would. That's it.
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WayexTDI
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Wed May 22, 2019 11:55 pm

Antarius wrote:
Vladex wrote:
Bricktop wrote:
Recognizing that the A380 has flaws is not “bashing” as you love to portray. It is an analytical review of reality. It barely reached break even on a per frame basis let alone recover its development costs. To dismiss any critique whatsoever as bashing is just slavish devotion, the stuff of a lovestruck teen, not objectivity. Of course, that needs to be differentiated from negativity towards Boeing. THAT is objective, and never “bashing”, correct?

You are talking about made up financials , not any flaws. The flaws would be passengers and crews revolting and planes crashing from time to time.


If the a380 was soooooo successful, it would be selling like hotcakes, not having production end 12 years after EIS.

The failure of the a380 has nothing to do with Boeing
Your bias is showing. :roll:

Interesting that you consider others to be A380-apologist, A380-lovers, A380-whatever-good when you are obviously an A380-hater and cannot even acknowledge all it achieved: it sealed Airbus as a serious contender, it is a huge PR machine and it paved the way to new technologies (that also ended up with Boeing).

To quote your own words: your bias is showing. :roll:
 
Antarius
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Thu May 23, 2019 12:01 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Antarius wrote:
Vladex wrote:
You are talking about made up financials , not any flaws. The flaws would be passengers and crews revolting and planes crashing from time to time.


If the a380 was soooooo successful, it would be selling like hotcakes, not having production end 12 years after EIS.

The failure of the a380 has nothing to do with Boeing
Your bias is showing. :roll:

Interesting that you consider others to be A380-apologist, A380-lovers, A380-whatever-good when you are obviously an A380-hater and cannot even acknowledge all it achieved: it sealed Airbus as a serious contender, it is a huge PR machine and it paved the way to new technologies (that also ended up with Boeing).

To quote your own words: your bias is showing. :roll:


Airbus was a contender long before the A380. You mean the thousands of a320s are just afterthoughts? The 1300 a330s are just for fun? Dont undersell Airbus by pinning their entire portfolio on their worst selling aircraft.

My bias is showing - I'm biased against dumb decisions. And Airbus, by canning the a380 12 years after EIS, admitted they made a mistake. You can color it all different ways, but even Airbus couldnt keep the line going.... either they and I and us "haters" are morons, or you're wrong.

Only fanboys cant see reality, the same reality that even Airbus sees.
Last edited by Antarius on Thu May 23, 2019 12:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
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zeke
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Thu May 23, 2019 12:01 am

Revelation wrote:
The Airbus CEO saying "the A380 was a success for Airbus" is the same kind of statement as the Boeing CEO saying the MCAS fix "makes a safe plane safer".


Except the A380 has been in service for a dozen years, not a single hull loss, not a single passenger killed. It is one of the safest aircraft in service.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Antarius
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Thu May 23, 2019 12:06 am

zeke wrote:
Revelation wrote:
The Airbus CEO saying "the A380 was a success for Airbus" is the same kind of statement as the Boeing CEO saying the MCAS fix "makes a safe plane safer".


Except the A380 has been in service for a dozen years, not a single hull loss, not a single passenger killed. It is one of the safest aircraft in service.


My read on that post is that Revelation was pointing out that they were both PR spins. Yes, the Boeing one was crazier since it was safety related, but they are both divorced from reality.

It's like when American or United "enhance" their frequent flyer programs. Its spin and nothing else.

I dont think anyone is comparing the MAX incidents to the commercial success of the a380. Totally different things.
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filipinoavgeek
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Thu May 23, 2019 12:18 am

Interestingly enough, this is not the first time that Airbus has said something similar to this. Back when the A340 ceased production, the press released called it a "new chapter in the A340's success story". YMMW on whether or not the A340 was a success though: it can be argued that it was at the time of launch, but times changed.
 
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zeke
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Thu May 23, 2019 12:29 am

Antarius wrote:
Yes, the Boeing one was crazier since it was safety related, but they are both divorced from reality.


I disagree, it is no easy feat to certify a new aircraft let alone such a large aircraft that needed so much innovation just to be feasible.

Have a look at how long it has taken the ARJ21, MRJ etc to gain certification.

From a financial point of view I posted my thoughts above, it has never been the financial black hole people beat it up to be. Airbus probably spent more in its regular R&D budget in the past 5 years than it did initially for the A380 alone (they invest around US$2.5 billion a year back into R&D).

The production facilities and skilled workers will enable them to ramp up other programs, they will not go unused. Another example or recycled investment.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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American 767
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Thu May 23, 2019 12:55 am

acjbbj wrote:
The A380 is the biggest and worst failure in all of commercial aviation.


It is true that the A380 is a commercial failure, I don't even know if it made it to Break Even point. But to say that it's the biggest commercial failure ever, I don't agree. The are other aircraft that have been commercial failures in the history of aviation: the Lockheed L-1011, the Convair 880/990, the Dassaut Mercure, the Ilyushin IL-96...just to name a few that didn't sell well. I think that at this point Airbus had learned a lesson: the future of the airliner industry in on twins, and Boeing has learned that lesson too especially in the passenger airliner market.
Ben Soriano
 
9Patch
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Thu May 23, 2019 12:56 am

Vladex wrote:
You are talking about made up financials , not any flaws. The flaws would be passengers and crews revolting and planes crashing from time to time.

So the fact that the A380 will end production after selling only 251 is made up?

Are you saying the financial implications of that are made up?
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Thu May 23, 2019 12:56 am

Oh wonderful. Since it was a success then they should pay back their loans.
 
9Patch
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Thu May 23, 2019 1:12 am

airbazar wrote:
The MD-11 was even worse than the L1011. The 748i hasn't exactly broken any sales records. And if we add Russian and Chinese airliners the list will just be too long to keep up with :)

The 7478i was a derivative of the very successful 747 program which has 1,572 orders and 1,551 deliveries.
The DC-10 sold 446 copies and the derivative MD-11 sold another 200.
I don't think anybody expects the Russian and Chinese to challenge the A/B duopoly anytime soon.
 
9Patch
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Thu May 23, 2019 1:18 am

zeke wrote:
From a financial point of view I posted my thoughts above, it has never been the financial black hole people beat it up to be. Airbus probably spent more in its regular R&D budget in the past 5 years than it did initially for the A380 alone (they invest around US$2.5 billion a year back into R&D).

The production facilities and skilled workers will enable them to ramp up other programs, they will not go unused. Another example or recycled investment.

Then why can't they pay back the launch aid?
Last edited by 9Patch on Thu May 23, 2019 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
9Patch
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Thu May 23, 2019 1:21 am

RalXWB wrote:
This turned into another A380 bashing... As expected.

Some people are trying to turn it into another 737 MAX bashing... As expected.
 
Ziyulu
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Thu May 23, 2019 1:22 am

On the other side, the 747 was also a failure since very few airlines are using it, right?
 
9Patch
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Thu May 23, 2019 1:43 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Interesting that you consider others to be A380-apologist, A380-lovers, A380-whatever-good when you are obviously an A380-hater and cannot even acknowledge all it achieved: it sealed Airbus as a serious contender, it is a huge PR machine and it paved the way to new technologies (that also ended up with Boeing).

Airbus was a serious contender before the A380 was launched.
They could have paved the way to new technologies regardless. If they could develop these new technologies for the A380, why not for another program? One that made sense.
Having a major commercial flop is a huge PR machine?
It's huge, but not in the way you want it.
Last edited by 9Patch on Thu May 23, 2019 1:47 am, edited 4 times in total.
 
ferminbrif
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Thu May 23, 2019 1:44 am

Considering Airbus has already announced to stop making A380 as orders dry up, I wouldn’t say it was a success for Airbus
 
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zeke
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Thu May 23, 2019 1:52 am

9Patch wrote:
Then why can't they pay back the launch aid?


The repayable loans are being paid back with each delivery, that is the basis for the repayable loan contract. Sometimes it works in the favour of the risk sharing partner. (Like the A320 still pays back RLI), sometimes it isn’t. That is why they are called risk sharing.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
WayexTDI
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Thu May 23, 2019 1:57 am

Antarius wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Antarius wrote:

If the a380 was soooooo successful, it would be selling like hotcakes, not having production end 12 years after EIS.

The failure of the a380 has nothing to do with Boeing
Your bias is showing. :roll:

Interesting that you consider others to be A380-apologist, A380-lovers, A380-whatever-good when you are obviously an A380-hater and cannot even acknowledge all it achieved: it sealed Airbus as a serious contender, it is a huge PR machine and it paved the way to new technologies (that also ended up with Boeing).

To quote your own words: your bias is showing. :roll:


Airbus was a contender long before the A380. You mean the thousands of a320s are just afterthoughts? The 1300 a330s are just for fun? Dont undersell Airbus by pinning their entire portfolio on their worst selling aircraft.

My bias is showing - I'm biased against dumb decisions. And Airbus, by canning the a380 12 years after EIS, admitted they made a mistake. You can color it all different ways, but even Airbus couldnt keep the line going.... either they and I and us "haters" are morons, or you're wrong.

Only fanboys cant see reality, the same reality that even Airbus sees.

A380 EIS: 10/2007
A330 deliveries as of 10/2007: between 447 and 515, just a little less than the 1,300 you're talking about. Airbus has delivered 1,446 A330's as of April 30, 2019.
Airbus was a much smaller player than Boeing (and before, Boeing & McDonnell Douglas) until around 2001 (325 deliveries for Airbus vs 527 deliveries for Boeing); which is when Airbus officially launched the A380.

And again, is it hard for you to admit that, while a commercial failure, the A380 did make some technological advances that are now used? So, the money spent during the A380 development for those technologies was money well spent for Airbus for the A350.
As such, the A380 is not the 100% failure you make it appear.

I guess we should agree to disagree. Farewell to you.
 
Antarius
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Thu May 23, 2019 1:57 am

Ziyulu wrote:
On the other side, the 747 was also a failure since very few airlines are using it, right?


Seriously? :roll:

Why must this be about Boeing? This is purely about the a380 and it's success or failure. Start a thread on the 736 and we can discuss Boeing's red-headed stepchild.
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Antarius
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Thu May 23, 2019 2:02 am

WayexTDI wrote:
Antarius wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Interesting that you consider others to be A380-apologist, A380-lovers, A380-whatever-good when you are obviously an A380-hater and cannot even acknowledge all it achieved: it sealed Airbus as a serious contender, it is a huge PR machine and it paved the way to new technologies (that also ended up with Boeing).

To quote your own words: your bias is showing. :roll:


Airbus was a contender long before the A380. You mean the thousands of a320s are just afterthoughts? The 1300 a330s are just for fun? Dont undersell Airbus by pinning their entire portfolio on their worst selling aircraft.

My bias is showing - I'm biased against dumb decisions. And Airbus, by canning the a380 12 years after EIS, admitted they made a mistake. You can color it all different ways, but even Airbus couldnt keep the line going.... either they and I and us "haters" are morons, or you're wrong.

Only fanboys cant see reality, the same reality that even Airbus sees.

A380 EIS: 10/2007
A330 deliveries as of 10/2007: between 447 and 515, just a little less than the 1,300 you're talking about. Airbus has delivered 1,446 A330's as of April 30, 2019.
Airbus was a much smaller player than Boeing (and before, Boeing & McDonnell Douglas) until around 2001 (325 deliveries for Airbus vs 527 deliveries for Boeing); which is when Airbus officially launched the A380.

And again, is it hard for you to admit that, while a commercial failure, the A380 did make some technological advances that are now used? So, the money spent during the A380 development for those technologies was money well spent for Airbus for the A350.
As such, the A380 is not the 100% failure you make it appear.

I guess we should agree to disagree. Farewell to you.


I did not say it was a 100% failure. Anywhere. No one is saying that everything that was developed for the a380 should be destroyed and forgotten. Yes, there was value that was added, as with any major capital investment, that can be used elsewhere. That still does not mean that the program was not a failure.

IMO, it is a testament to the success and strength of Airbus that they survived the a380, and that was largely due to their historical track record and the a320 flying off the shelves. Other companies like Lockheed (Commerical aviation) didn't.
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WayexTDI
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Thu May 23, 2019 2:02 am

9Patch wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Interesting that you consider others to be A380-apologist, A380-lovers, A380-whatever-good when you are obviously an A380-hater and cannot even acknowledge all it achieved: it sealed Airbus as a serious contender, it is a huge PR machine and it paved the way to new technologies (that also ended up with Boeing).

Airbus was a serious contender before the A380 was launched.
They could have paved the way to new technologies regardless. If they could develop these new technologies for the A380, why not for another program? One that made sense.
Having a major commercial flop is a huge PR machine?
It's huge, but not in the way you want it.

Airbus was much smaller than Boeing and McDonnell Douglas (separate or combined) until 2001; the A380 was launched in 2000... They were on their way up, and the A380 sealed the deal I believe.

And you want an example of a huge commercial failure that was, in the end, a huge success (technical, PR and company-wise)? Concorde.
 
jteruel06
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Re: A380 was success for Airbus, says new CEO

Thu May 23, 2019 2:06 am

As much as it is an engineering marvel, the Airbus A380 never dethroned the Queen of the Skies - the Boeing 747 - which it was built to replace. If it was a success, the production wouldn't have been ended in the first place.

That said I don't dislike it or Airbus. It's one of my aviation bucket list items to be able to ride on one.
Jeffrey Teruel
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