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LAXintl
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Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Thu May 23, 2019 4:48 pm

Citing ongoing losses GA reported to drop London service again "after the summer holiday", and reduce Amsterdam service from 6 to 3 times weekly.

https://www.thejakartapost.com/news/201 ... olicy.html

=

Some might remember GA dropped London in 2018 to only bring is back again merely few months later this year again. They also increased AMS frequencies.
Seems both decisions were poor ones and being reversed.
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mercure1
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Thu May 23, 2019 5:00 pm

Seems Garuda does not know if they are coming or going with such frequent changes.
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Thu May 23, 2019 5:05 pm

Very logical, there is almost no demand between London and Indonesia and the little demand there is can be served through Amsterdam with KLM as a feeder. Also, most traffic between Europe and Indonesia is VFR traffic which doesn't require a high frequency. By reducing the frequency they're hoping to squeeze the loads of multiple flights into one, increasing the load factors.

Also keep in mind KLM and Garuda are codeshare partners on the Amsterdam - Jakarta route. Both airlines fly this route and on the days Garuda doesn't have a flight they can offer a KLM flight instead. This is logical since both KLM and Garuda are in SkyTeam.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Thu May 23, 2019 5:25 pm

mercure1 wrote:
Seems Garuda does not know if they are coming or going with such frequent changes.


More like politics being involved.

On the flip side, the election is just over, so maybe there is a link? (I've no clue...)

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Also keep in mind KLM and Garuda are codeshare partners on the Amsterdam - Jakarta route. Both airlines fly this route and on the days Garuda doesn't have a flight they can offer a KLM flight instead. This is logical since both KLM and Garuda are in SkyTeam.


KLM doesn't fly it non-stop, though (It's AMS-KUL-CGK). But yes, otherwise it's mainly VFR and tourism traffic (Connecting at CGK to places like DPS, assuming that they don't just take KL's CGK-SIN-DPS) anyway.
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tphuang
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Thu May 23, 2019 6:32 pm

When I flew klm on sin dps. I got the impression much of the traffic from ams to sin were staying on for the final leg to dps.
 
Avgeek21
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Thu May 23, 2019 6:41 pm

This is only a scenario IF the Dutch government places a limit on fares. So nothing confirmed and they don’t want to reduce their flights. That limit would mean the London flight would operate at a loss. This acc to Dutch news; https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... e-halveren
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Thu May 23, 2019 8:31 pm

LON & AMS 777 flights have always operated at a loss.
 
bhxalex
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Thu May 23, 2019 8:32 pm

The 789 or 359 would be perfect for GA, the 773 is too much plane for these routes. PR, VN & MH all use these aircraft on similar distance routes to LHR, from markets not dissimiliar to CGK.
 
Jetty
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Thu May 23, 2019 8:35 pm

Avgeek21 wrote:
This is only a scenario IF the Dutch government places a limit on fares. So nothing confirmed and they don’t want to reduce their flights. That limit would mean the London flight would operate at a loss. This acc to Dutch news; https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... e-halveren

Dutch government placing a limit on fares? :scratchchin: That will never happen, they aren't socialist.
 
hooverman
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Thu May 23, 2019 8:38 pm

Avgeek21 wrote:
This is only a scenario IF the Dutch government places a limit on fares. So nothing confirmed and they don’t want to reduce their flights. That limit would mean the London flight would operate at a loss. This acc to Dutch news; https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... e-halveren


It’s not about the Dutch government but the Indonesian government that wants Garuda to lower pricing on tickets.
 
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janders
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Thu May 23, 2019 11:54 pm

Its seems their entire strategy to return to Europe has been a financial failure.
Remember they restarted service first to AMS daily via DXB in 2010 and have been tinkering ever since with Europe capacity, frequency, routings, product etc
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filipinoavgeek
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Fri May 24, 2019 12:05 am

If this means Garuda is out of London for good, I wonder if this mean First Class on Garuda will go bye-bye sooner than later. I read that the service has received much praise but is losing tons of money and in most days barely gets any passengers.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Fri May 24, 2019 1:26 am

It was AMS via AUH with an A330-200 and lost more money than the nonstop 777!
First is only kept for the 5star Skytrax rating and I think only 2 or 3 aircraft still have it.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Fri May 24, 2019 1:47 am

eta unknown wrote:
It was AMS via AUH with an A330-200 and lost more money than the nonstop 777!
First is only kept for the 5star Skytrax rating and I think only 2 or 3 aircraft still have it.


If Planespotter is correct, only 2 77W - PK-GIF and PK-GIG, still have F. They are used only on NRT-DPS and HND-CGK (and occasional CGK-DPS for repositioning - usually GA412 or GA421 according to FR24 history). They don't even have F going to LON or AMS anyway. Random dummy booking on GA's website confirm that also (i.e. First Class Fares only show up on TYO-CGK/DPS).
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StudiodeKadent
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Fri May 24, 2019 2:38 am

This is pretty sad for GA. Apparently their onboard product was very good.

I guess GA had the wrong jets, and to an extent was in the wrong market (and not to mention had to compete with Singapore Airlines). And of course, like almost all markets in the region, GA has political requirements that it faces.

Could GA reinvent/fix itself? I think it would need extensive fleet renewal and product changes to do so. It could still be a premium airline but it would need to downsize appropriately.
 
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Fri May 24, 2019 2:41 am

StudiodeKadent wrote:
This is pretty sad for GA. Apparently their onboard product was very good.

I guess GA had the wrong jets, and to an extent was in the wrong market (and not to mention had to compete with Singapore Airlines). And of course, like almost all markets in the region, GA has political requirements that it faces.

Could GA reinvent/fix itself? I think it would need extensive fleet renewal and product changes to do so. It could still be a premium airline but it would need to downsize appropriately.


Garuda has an upcoming 787 order right? That might help them. They also have their low-cost carrier Citilink and they recently took control of Sriwijaya Air, so those may be factors as to their current situation.
 
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Fri May 24, 2019 2:42 am

Speaking of SEA-London, anyone know how well PR's MNL-LHR route is doing lately? I've read anecdotally that the number of their foreign passengers has increased, and there was their recent switch to the A350 on that route, but I don't know how well the yields are or how PR is being affected by competition in the market. And what would be a higher yielding market: PH-Europe or ID-Europe?
 
AdEd
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Fri May 24, 2019 3:42 am

filipinoavgeek wrote:
StudiodeKadent wrote:
This is pretty sad for GA. Apparently their onboard product was very good.

I guess GA had the wrong jets, and to an extent was in the wrong market (and not to mention had to compete with Singapore Airlines). And of course, like almost all markets in the region, GA has political requirements that it faces.

Could GA reinvent/fix itself? I think it would need extensive fleet renewal and product changes to do so. It could still be a premium airline but it would need to downsize appropriately.


Garuda has an upcoming 787 order right? That might help them. They also have their low-cost carrier Citilink and they recently took control of Sriwijaya Air, so those may be factors as to their current situation.



Nope, no 787 orders. They did sign a LoI back in the 2015 Paris Air Show for 30 787-9s and 30 A350-900s, but those never materialized.

What they do have on order are 14 A330-900neos.
 
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Fri May 24, 2019 3:59 am

AdEd wrote:
filipinoavgeek wrote:
StudiodeKadent wrote:
This is pretty sad for GA. Apparently their onboard product was very good.

I guess GA had the wrong jets, and to an extent was in the wrong market (and not to mention had to compete with Singapore Airlines). And of course, like almost all markets in the region, GA has political requirements that it faces.

Could GA reinvent/fix itself? I think it would need extensive fleet renewal and product changes to do so. It could still be a premium airline but it would need to downsize appropriately.


Garuda has an upcoming 787 order right? That might help them. They also have their low-cost carrier Citilink and they recently took control of Sriwijaya Air, so those may be factors as to their current situation.



Nope, no 787 orders. They did sign a LoI back in the 2015 Paris Air Show for 30 787-9s and 30 A350-900s, but those never materialized.

What they do have on order are 14 A330-900neos.


This article from just this month says otherwise, though.
https://www.ifn.news/posts/garuda-indon ... reamliner/
 
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Fri May 24, 2019 4:01 am

AdEd wrote:
Nope, no 787 orders. They did sign a LoI back in the 2015 Paris Air Show for 30 787-9s and 30 A350-900s, but those never materialized.

What they do have on order are 14 A330-900neos.


At the risk of taking the discussion down a rabbit hole, expect a small 787 order may come in to make up for the "cancelled" Max order - only for it to become a Max (or 797?) order again down the track.
 
AdEd
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Fri May 24, 2019 5:08 am

filipinoavgeek wrote:
AdEd wrote:
filipinoavgeek wrote:

Garuda has an upcoming 787 order right? That might help them. They also have their low-cost carrier Citilink and they recently took control of Sriwijaya Air, so those may be factors as to their current situation.



Nope, no 787 orders. They did sign a LoI back in the 2015 Paris Air Show for 30 787-9s and 30 A350-900s, but those never materialized.

What they do have on order are 14 A330-900neos.


This article from just this month says otherwise, though.
https://www.ifn.news/posts/garuda-indon ... reamliner/


Oh my bad, didn’t see the word “upcoming”. But then again nothing is final as of yet.
 
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Fri May 24, 2019 9:36 am

bhxalex wrote:
The 789 or 359 would be perfect for GA, the 773 is too much plane for these routes. PR, VN & MH all use these aircraft on similar distance routes to LHR, from markets not dissimiliar to CGK.

Arent they converting MAX 8 orders into the 787?
 
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Fri May 24, 2019 9:51 am

filipinoavgeek wrote:
Speaking of SEA-London, anyone know how well PR's MNL-LHR route is doing lately? I've read anecdotally that the number of their foreign passengers has increased, and there was their recent switch to the A350 on that route, but I don't know how well the yields are or how PR is being affected by competition in the market. And what would be a higher yielding market: PH-Europe or ID-Europe?

Profitability is a different issue, especially with PR, but the loads are OK because there’s a sizeable Filipino population in London. MNL-LHR is here to stay.
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filipinoavgeek
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Fri May 24, 2019 12:02 pm

TheEuphorian wrote:
bhxalex wrote:
The 789 or 359 would be perfect for GA, the 773 is too much plane for these routes. PR, VN & MH all use these aircraft on similar distance routes to LHR, from markets not dissimiliar to CGK.

Arent they converting MAX 8 orders into the 787?


They're converting them to the MAX 10 instead.
 
SeanM1997
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Fri May 24, 2019 12:40 pm

LHR-DPS is very low yielding which will cause a problem. Also, having the routing do CGK-LHR-DPS means there is no direct return flights which would put passengers off. The 777 is also too large for take off in Indonesia meaning not all seats can sell out (even though they wouldn't)

If Garuda Indonesia want to operate to London (which I understand as the world's largest aviation hub), I think extending 3 of their 6 weekly CGK-AMS flights would have been adequate (maybe all 6 if they work with KLM). Lots of passengers travel between London and Amsterdam and 5th freedom could have meant KLM dropping a daily flight and getting Garuda to carry their passengers for them.
 
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Fri May 24, 2019 12:50 pm

I remember seeing one way fare for 290 EUR on this route and PR and CA also charge at least 100 EUR less on average... people at this region tend to be price sensitive... no shocker GA is struggling...
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Flanker7
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Fri May 31, 2019 7:14 am

According to the news here in Amsterdam Garuda will keep flying to both Amsterdam and London 6 times a week. London however will be a Amsterdam tag. Source luchtvaartnieuws. It is not yet clear when this will happen and how they will fly the route, but the article mentioned that both destinations are important to the Airline. Will see how this pannes out.
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Fri May 31, 2019 8:51 am

bhxalex wrote:
The 789 or 359 would be perfect for GA, the 773 is too much plane for these routes. PR, VN & MH all use these aircraft on similar distance routes to LHR, from markets not dissimiliar to CGK.


I was going to say the same thing, can the A330neo do Jakarta to London? If yes then it would be better for them than the B789 and A359.
 
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Fri May 31, 2019 9:41 am

The thing is, GA is a large domestic airline, with a small int'l arm. 38m passengers, of which only 4.7m are international... (and most of those regional) There's no reason for them to downsize domestically.
 
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Fri May 31, 2019 10:21 am

Slash787 wrote:
can the A330neo do Jakarta to London? If yes then it would be better for them than the B789 and A359.

Manila - London is shorter than Jakarta - London and from what I recall the A330neo can't fly MNL-Europe reliably (it can however do KUL-Europe, which IIRC was part of the reason why AirAsia X ordered some, in case they decided to return to the European market).
 
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SQ789
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:25 am

And Garuda will cancel the non-stop London service as source found below.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... june-2019/
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SeanM1997
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:31 am

SQ789 wrote:
And Garuda will cancel the non-stop London service as source found below.

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... june-2019/


Reservation has reopened again

Can anyone actually trust this airline? Who would dare book with them?
 
peterinlisbon
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Sat Jun 22, 2019 9:12 am

It's not surprising - it's a long way and most people visiting Indonesia would be more interested in going to places like Bali than Jakarta (although personally, I like it). Anyway, I think Qatar and Turkish offer 1-stop services to both Bali and Jakarta with short connection times and a lot of passengers would probably prefer a stop anyway. Maybe they can just codeshare with one of these companies for London.
 
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Sat Jun 22, 2019 2:00 pm

cedarjet wrote:

MNL-LHR is here to stay.


Maybe not:

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... don-478183
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:25 am

OzarkD9S wrote:
cedarjet wrote:

MNL-LHR is here to stay.


Maybe not:

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... don-478183

Because this route is so difficult for PAL.
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filipinoavgeek
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:15 am

SQ789 wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:
cedarjet wrote:

MNL-LHR is here to stay.


Maybe not:

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... don-478183

Because this route is so difficult for PAL.


More like Europe is a challenge for Southeast Asian airlines other than SG/TG/VN. Even MH now only serves London and mainly due to colonial and business relations, and I presume VN is more due to the partnership feeds. MH already dropped almost all of their European routes. It's not just PAL that's struggling.
 
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:40 am

filipinoavgeek wrote:
SQ789 wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:

Because this route is so difficult for PAL.


More like Europe is a challenge for Southeast Asian airlines other than SG/TG/VN. Even MH now only serves London and mainly due to colonial and business relations, and I presume VN is more due to the partnership feeds. MH already dropped almost all of their European routes. It's not just PAL that's struggling.


Honestly MH could have made Europe work if they didn't screw up their fleet planning so badly by not getting 787s sooner.
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filipinoavgeek
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:49 am

CAPA's sister site Blue Swan Daily suggested that the saga about GA's London on-off service may be more due to political pressures than anything else: i.e. Garuda wants to stop serving London altogether but they are being prevented from doing so by the government. Even this latest (non?)suspension could be the latest version of that.
 
bhxalex
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:03 am

The 789 or 359 would be a much better fit on these routes, aside from Hajj and Umrah charters there's nowhere in their network, especially with their current business model, that requires a 77W's capacity.
 
FromCDGtoSYD
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:08 am

filipinoavgeek wrote:
SQ789 wrote:
OzarkD9S wrote:

Because this route is so difficult for PAL.


More like Europe is a challenge for Southeast Asian airlines other than SG/TG/VN. Even MH now only serves London and mainly due to colonial and business relations, and I presume VN is more due to the partnership feeds. MH already dropped almost all of their European routes. It's not just PAL that's struggling.


I think you'll find that the further south east you go the harder it is to make a route to europe work. GA has huge difficulties filling up 777-300ERs as the only feed they can get is from indonesia or australia as any other destination requires backtracking. On the LHR side they virtually have no feed either meaning flights are mostly filling up (or not) with O&D. I suspect MH and PR suffer from the same problems. SQ is kind of an oddity but to be honest the Singaporean market as a whole is pretty much an oddity.

What GA really needs is independance and a new fleet. Their A330s are old and their J really doesn't appeal to anyone (although, having tried one of their 4 "new" a330s, I reckon having the same product throughout the fleet would go a long way).

If the government really wants to help GA they should get them some A350s, coupled with their A330NEO it would make for a simplified fleet crew wise whilst allowing for more flexibility (dare I say make AMS daily). But knowing them, they'll end up with A350ULRs flying to LAX or something...
 
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:16 am

FromCDGtoSYD wrote:
filipinoavgeek wrote:
SQ789 wrote:
Because this route is so difficult for PAL.


More like Europe is a challenge for Southeast Asian airlines other than SG/TG/VN. Even MH now only serves London and mainly due to colonial and business relations, and I presume VN is more due to the partnership feeds. MH already dropped almost all of their European routes. It's not just PAL that's struggling.


I think you'll find that the further south east you go the harder it is to make a route to europe work. GA has huge difficulties filling up 777-300ERs as the only feed they can get is from indonesia or australia as any other destination requires backtracking. On the LHR side they virtually have no feed either meaning flights are mostly filling up (or not) with O&D. I suspect MH and PR suffer from the same problems. SQ is kind of an oddity but to be honest the Singaporean market as a whole is pretty much an oddity.

What GA really needs is independance and a new fleet. Their A330s are old and their J really doesn't appeal to anyone (although, having tried one of their 4 "new" a330s, I reckon having the same product throughout the fleet would go a long way).

If the government really wants to help GA they should get them some A350s, coupled with their A330NEO it would make for a simplified fleet crew wise whilst allowing for more flexibility (dare I say make AMS daily). But knowing them, they'll end up with A350ULRs flying to LAX or something...


In PR's case there is a sizable Filipino community in the UK so I think that was part of the reason for the London route in the first place. There is also an Indonesian community but it's much smaller (100,000+ Filipinos compared to less than 10,000 Indonesians).
 
hooverman
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:07 am

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
filipinoavgeek wrote:
SQ789 wrote:
Because this route is so difficult for PAL.


More like Europe is a challenge for Southeast Asian airlines other than SG/TG/VN. Even MH now only serves London and mainly due to colonial and business relations, and I presume VN is more due to the partnership feeds. MH already dropped almost all of their European routes. It's not just PAL that's struggling.


Honestly MH could have made Europe work if they didn't screw up their fleet planning so badly by not getting 787s sooner.


Using B787’s or A350’s doesn’t automatically make an airline profitable.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:08 am

hooverman wrote:
TheFlyingDisk wrote:
filipinoavgeek wrote:

More like Europe is a challenge for Southeast Asian airlines other than SG/TG/VN. Even MH now only serves London and mainly due to colonial and business relations, and I presume VN is more due to the partnership feeds. MH already dropped almost all of their European routes. It's not just PAL that's struggling.


Honestly MH could have made Europe work if they didn't screw up their fleet planning so badly by not getting 787s sooner.


Using B787’s or A350’s doesn’t automatically make an airline profitable.


True, but the when you consider the yields & load factors for MH's European routes, it's more possible that a reduction in operating costs of a 787/A350 compared to the 777 would help tip the scale in their behalf. As I recall, they're usually hitting 70%-80% LF, especially AMS-KUL.
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filipinoavgeek
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:05 pm

TheFlyingDisk wrote:
As I recall, they're usually hitting 70%-80% LF, especially AMS-KUL.

MH dropped KUL-AMS a while back though.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Sun Jun 23, 2019 12:32 pm

How much money will Garuda get for selling its London LHR slots?
 
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mercure1
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:13 am

What crazy mismanagement.
Customers don’t know if they are coming and going with all these changes to schedules.
mercure f-wtcc
 
filipinoavgeek
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:33 am

Can't they just go back to a fifth freedom route? They used to do CGK-AUH-London, and though I doubt they can do that again, there might be other routes that they can try out.
 
MalevTU134
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Wed Jul 17, 2019 2:40 am

filipinoavgeek wrote:
Can't they just go back to a fifth freedom route? They used to do CGK-AUH-London, and though I doubt they can do that again, there might be other routes that they can try out.

DPS-KHI- (or LHE, Peshawar, Quetta, Sialkot or name-your-favourite-city-in-Pakistan) LHR would make some posters on this forum go bazookas....but that's about all that would happen.
 
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eta unknown
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Wed Jul 17, 2019 6:31 am

Well KNO must be a tech stop only as stated above as it's illegal in Indonesia to have domestic tags on international flights. Remember a few years ago GA was fined for operating Makassar-Medan-Jeddah without the proper authority and they had to split the flight into 2 flight numbers. IMO the only way LHR will work (read: break even at best) is to operate CGK-SIN-LHR-SIN-CGK.
 
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CarbonFibre
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Re: Garuda to close London again, reduce Amsterdam

Wed Jul 17, 2019 8:12 am

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