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Eindhoven
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GRQ supervisory board: move military flights from EIN to GRQ

Sun May 26, 2019 2:55 pm

The supervisory board of GRQ airport is working on a plan to move all military activity from EIN to GRQ. Also GRQ is to invest in cargo.

https://www.luchtvaartnieuws.nl/nieuws/ ... -en-vracht

This would be good news for GRQ, EIN and AMS. Currently there are ample flights at GRQ and the airport is loss-making. Currently all military logistics/cargo activity in the Netherlands is concentrated at EIN. By moving this to GRQ they would free up capacity at EIN for further commercial flights. Also the areas of EIN that are currently in use by the military can be developed for commercial use.

They also plan for GRQ to attract more cargo flights which would be a reliever for AMS. As it it now cargo is heavily concentrated at AMS with MST being a good second. But AMS also lacks capacity and it is expected that cargo airlines would happily move their cargo flights from AMS to GRQ. This would free up slots at AMS that can then be used to add pax flights and improve the hub function.

The added military and cargo flights would create a lot of employment in the GRQ region and ensure the future of the airport.

Overall I think this is a very good plan. I'm specially delighted about the move of the military from EIN to GRQ as it takes up a lot of capacity at EIN. Also many of the complaints about noise come from military aircraft which are more noisy than commercial aircraft.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: GRQ supervisory board: move military flights from EIN to GRQ

Sun May 26, 2019 3:06 pm

As noted in the BeNeLux tread, it is a high degree of wishful thinking. The Dutch Airforce will not be happy to pay for such a move, the cost will be millions:
- upgrade of Eelden airfield to partly military field;
- compensate staff to move 300km;
- write off investments in Eindhoven.

Could be as high as 50 - 100million euro for such a move.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: GRQ supervisory board: move military flights from EIN to GRQ

Sun May 26, 2019 5:09 pm

The idea itself isn't bad, but I agree that the costs of it make it highly unlikely. Part of those costs might be funded through crowdfunding, but certainly not all of it. Airlines that want to expand in either Amsterdam or Eindhoven but currently can't might be willing to pay for a solution that can free up capacity at those airports if that includes a guarantee that they get their share of the freed up capacity.

As for the investments in Eindhoven that would have to be written off, some of that could be sold off instead. For example the military has some maintenance hangars at Eindhoven which could be put to commercial use. The military could sell those hangars. Perhaps Transavia is interested in moving their maintenance division from Amsterdam to Eindhoven? They could then sell their existing hangar at Amsterdam to whoever wants to have it and might actually make a profit on it.

Of course this cannot cover all costs but certainly a part of it. We'll have to see...
 
MCTSET
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Re: GRQ supervisory board: move military flights from EIN to GRQ

Sun May 26, 2019 5:20 pm

So what is the possibility of this move happening?
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: GRQ supervisory board: move military flights from EIN to GRQ

Sun May 26, 2019 5:43 pm

Like I said, it's unlikely but worth investigating.

The move of cargo flights from Amsterdam also fits in with the plans of the government to free up capacity at Amsterdam that is currently not contributing to the hub. That's what they're expanding Lelystad for, but Lelystad is for the holiday flights. There won't be any cargo at Lelystad. Other than holiday flights, cargo flights also don't contribute to the hub and are therefor the next logical step to be moved out of Amsterdam. If they can be moved to Groningen you could free up capacity at Amsterdam with relatively small investments.

Of course the move of the military from Eindhoven is another story. I think that's less likely to happen.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: GRQ supervisory board: move military flights from EIN to GRQ

Sun May 26, 2019 7:17 pm

Is moving military flights from EIN to GRQ consistent with the capabilities one would expect of the Dutch military ? I can think of at least one country that is not friendly to the Netherlands and has the capacity to send military aircraft armed with weapons to or even into Dutch airspace -
 
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intrance
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Re: GRQ supervisory board: move military flights from EIN to GRQ

Sun May 26, 2019 7:26 pm

Groningen wants a lot and always thinks the local support is there but reality has proven otherwise already more than once.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: GRQ supervisory board: move military flights from EIN to GRQ

Sun May 26, 2019 7:35 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Is moving military flights from EIN to GRQ consistent with the capabilities one would expect of the Dutch military ? I can think of at least one country that is not friendly to the Netherlands and has the capacity to send military aircraft armed with weapons to or even into Dutch airspace -


Not sure were you are going with this.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
holczakker
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Re: GRQ supervisory board: move military flights from EIN to GRQ

Sun May 26, 2019 7:46 pm

EIN is apparently unwilling to invest in the ILS therefore the weather diversions are frequent. That is a shame if you are talking about the second biggest airport of a wealthy country like the Netherlands. All airports around (even the smaller ones like Maastricht, Niederrhein, Liege, Charleroi) have CAT III ILS while EIN is only CAT I. with 550 m minima (visibility) which is pathetic mainly if you consider how often it's foggy.
 
Zaf
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Re: GRQ supervisory board: move military flights from EIN to GRQ

Sun May 26, 2019 7:59 pm

Dutchy wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
Is moving military flights from EIN to GRQ consistent with the capabilities one would expect of the Dutch military ? I can think of at least one country that is not friendly to the Netherlands and has the capacity to send military aircraft armed with weapons to or even into Dutch airspace -


Not sure were you are going with this.


Maybe it means You don't need a military. Just do your cheese. And if anyone attacks you, Belgium and Germany will be defending you.

On topic: I think it's a good idea. Needs serious consideration. EIN needs more passenger flights
 
AMS18C36C
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Re: GRQ supervisory board: move military flights from EIN to GRQ

Sun May 26, 2019 8:28 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
The idea itself isn't bad, but I agree that the costs of it make it highly unlikely. Part of those costs might be funded through crowdfunding, but certainly not all of it. Airlines that want to expand in either Amsterdam or Eindhoven but currently can't might be willing to pay for a solution that can free up capacity at those airports if that includes a guarantee that they get their share of the freed up capacity.


Crowdfunding the construction of an airport? If that is a serious suggestion, that would require a lot of money…

Next to the reasons that have already been mentioned why the Dutch military wouldn’t be keen on moving, don’t forget that they have faced years of budget cutbacks. This trend has recently been changed. My guess would be that they have more important things to worry about than relocating to the other side of the country.
 
davidjohnson6
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Re: GRQ supervisory board: move military flights from EIN to GRQ

Sun May 26, 2019 8:49 pm

My point is that you can send the military to different runways in remote areas in their home country, but the military has a function beyond that of just reserving airspace for burning fuel.

If the Dutch air force is moved according to the desires of LCCs, can they still provide the security presence in the air that the Netherlands needs to ensure civilian life continues uninterrupted ? I'm thinking of a big and powerful country to the east of Europe which has ample capacity to send armed jets and bombers into airspace around the Netherlands and cause trouble. That country has shown many many times in the last 5-10 years its willingness to make trouble in (or very close to) domestic airspace of some of the Netherlands' closest and geographically nearest allies. Sending up a Transavia passenger jet to ask them nicely to please go away is not going to dissuade them

If you make life sufficiently difficult for a military, then their ability to act is limited when another country turns hostile
 
MCTSET
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Re: GRQ supervisory board: move military flights from EIN to GRQ

Sun May 26, 2019 9:19 pm

davidjohnson6 wrote:
My point is that you can send the military to different runways in remote areas in their home country, but the military has a function beyond that of just reserving airspace for burning fuel.

If the Dutch air force is moved according to the desires of LCCs, can they still provide the security presence in the air that the Netherlands needs to ensure civilian life continues uninterrupted ? I'm thinking of a big and powerful country to the east of Europe which has ample capacity to send armed jets and bombers into airspace around the Netherlands and cause trouble. That country has shown many many times in the last 5-10 years its willingness to make trouble in (or very close to) domestic airspace of some of the Netherlands' closest and geographically nearest allies. Sending up a Transavia passenger jet to ask them nicely to please go away is not going to dissuade them

If you make life sufficiently difficult for a military, then their ability to act is limited when another country turns hostile



Ahh yes Russia is going to invade the Netherlands because a few F16’s have moved base from Eindhoven to Groningen. Russia is 2000km away from the Netherlands, how does moving a squadron 200km closer to the coast, lead to the invasion of Holland.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: GRQ supervisory board: move military flights from EIN to GRQ

Mon May 27, 2019 5:37 am

MCTSET wrote:
Ahh yes Russia is going to invade the Netherlands because a few F16’s have moved base from Eindhoven to Groningen. Russia is 2000km away from the Netherlands, how does moving a squadron 200km closer to the coast, lead to the invasion of Holland.


It's not about those F-16s since they're not based in Eindhoven and therefor won't be moved to Groningen either. The F-16 bases in the Netherlands are Leeuwarden and Volkel and that will remain the case.

The military activitiy at Eindhoven are military logistics and cargo. It is the home of the KDC-10 tanker aircraft, soon to be replaced by NATO A330 MRTT tanker aircraft. Also the C-130 Hercules aircraft and a few military private jets are based in Eindhoven. But no combat aircraft, they're based elsewhere.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: GRQ supervisory board: move military flights from EIN to GRQ

Mon May 27, 2019 5:44 am

davidjohnson6 wrote:
Is moving military flights from EIN to GRQ consistent with the capabilities one would expect of the Dutch military ? I can think of at least one country that is not friendly to the Netherlands and has the capacity to send military aircraft armed with weapons to or even into Dutch airspace -


Yes, because it won't influence the defensive capabilities of the Netherlands. The Dutch fighter jets aren't based in Eindhoven and would therefor also not be moved to Groningen.

But even if that were the case, suppose a Russian military aircraft would enter Dutch airspace. Where is it most likely to do that? Over the North Sea. Now Groningen lies quite a bit closer to the North Sea than Eindhoven, in fact it lies just in the corner that is closest to the point where this Russian aircraft would enter Dutch airspace.

The fighter bases in the Netherlands are Leeuwarden and Volkel, one in the north and one in the south. Should a Russian military aircraft enter Dutch airspace, it would be immediately intercepted by F-16s from Leeuwarden. Nothing is going to change that.
 
MCTSET
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Re: GRQ supervisory board: move military flights from EIN to GRQ

Mon May 27, 2019 6:24 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
davidjohnson6 wrote:
Is moving military flights from EIN to GRQ consistent with the capabilities one would expect of the Dutch military ? I can think of at least one country that is not friendly to the Netherlands and has the capacity to send military aircraft armed with weapons to or even into Dutch airspace -


Yes, because it won't influence the defensive capabilities of the Netherlands. The Dutch fighter jets aren't based in Eindhoven and would therefor also not be moved to Groningen.

But even if that were the case, suppose a Russian military aircraft would enter Dutch airspace. Where is it most likely to do that? Over the North Sea. Now Groningen lies quite a bit closer to the North Sea than Eindhoven, in fact it lies just in the corner that is closest to the point where this Russian aircraft would enter Dutch airspace.

The fighter bases in the Netherlands are Leeuwarden and Volkel, one in the north and one in the south. Should a Russian military aircraft enter Dutch airspace, it would be immediately intercepted by F-16s from Leeuwarden. Nothing is going to change that.



Exactly
 
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Dutchy
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Re: GRQ supervisory board: move military flights from EIN to GRQ

Mon May 27, 2019 7:54 pm

PatrickZ80 wrote:
The fighter bases in the Netherlands are Leeuwarden and Volkel, one in the north and one in the south. Should a Russian military aircraft enter Dutch airspace, it would be immediately intercepted by F-16s from Leeuwarden. Nothing is going to change that.


Actually, that has changed, We are doing QRA with the Belgiums together. So they would be intercepted from Leeuwarden or Volker or Kleine Borgel (I think). But indeed this has nothing to do with the proposed move of 334sq from Eindhoven to Eelden.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
bhxalex
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Re: GRQ supervisory board: move military flights from EIN to GRQ

Mon May 27, 2019 8:58 pm

The cargo infrastructure already in place at AMS and the cost and time of essentially moving it to GRQ, or anywhere else for that matter, means we aren't going to see a large scale abandonment of AMS by cargo carriers.

The unique AMS flower facility alone means it's a non starter for many cargo airlines to up sticks there.
 
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airkas1
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Re: GRQ supervisory board: move military flights from EIN to GRQ

Tue May 28, 2019 10:30 am

The Dutch media took the statements by the supervisory board out of context (as asual). They are indeed exploring options, as far-fetched as they may be.

Moving the military transport branch from EIN to GRQ would logistically be a mammoth task at best. It does seem logical to atleast explore it, since with the proposed restructuring of the Dutch air space, most (if not all) military (training) areas will be placed in the Northern parts of the country. Crowdfunding a new base will never ever happen, that's not in our culture and I don't think anyone will be happy to spend their own money on such a move. I also foresee a good amount of complaints from the NIMBY's that could delay things like was experienced in the past. Although I would love to see the transport birds on a daily basis, I don't think it will happen.

Cargo is a more serious and feasible idea. There is capacity, availability and enough open space to build a cargo facility. It would likely be expensive to start it up, as it needs to be built from scratch, but the possibilities are there. I wouldn't be surprised to see this happening in the future, albeit on a small(er) scale than at AMS/MST.

Another thing I have high on my personal wishlist is a paint facility, but I also don't think that will happen anytime soon since there are facilities at AMS, LEY and MST already.


Dutchy wrote:
Eelden

Sorry to nitpick, but you've written it a few times like this so can't be a typo anymore. The name is Eelde. No -n.

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