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NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 10:32 pm
by Zkpilot
As has been rumoured NZ is going with the 78J to replace its 77E. 8x ordered and options for another 12x 789/78J. All GE powered due to issues with RR, improved fuel burn, and probably to provide some diversity rather than all eggs in one basket.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/business/industri ... ion-centre

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 10:35 pm
by aerohottie
Luxon also said that NZ had been working with Boeing to give the 78J more range, but didn't give specifics.
I wonder if Boeing will come out with more details on this.
They have mentioned that the 78J ordered can do AKL-NYC, so that would be quite a range boost

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 10:36 pm
by hic787
Will these be -10ER's?

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 10:36 pm
by rufusmi
stuff wrote:
Air New Zealand has "big ambitions" to fly its new Boeing 787-10 Dreamliners between Auckland to New York


Good luck with that

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 10:36 pm
by TWA772LR
Can these make it on AKL-IAH?

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 10:46 pm
by Jefford717
This is a huge blow to RR.

Please correct me if I’m wrong, aside from the leasing company, NZ will be the first 787 customer to switch from one engine supplier to another. I believed Ethiopian Airlines has a mixture of GE and RR 787 in their fleet, but IIRC their RR 787 are the so called “terrible teens” so they don’t really have a choice as far as the engine and it was sold to them at a very attractive price.

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 10:47 pm
by justloveplanes
rufusmi wrote:
stuff wrote:
Air New Zealand has "big ambitions" to fly its new Boeing 787-10 Dreamliners between Auckland to New York


Good luck with that


Reading the article, it references a reconfigured 789 in the same pragraph as the 78J purchase. So maybe an optimized 789 is the AKL NYC intent

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 10:50 pm
by ikolkyo
A blow to RR indeed, I wonder what improvements have been made to the 787 and possible the GEnx

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 10:58 pm
by Momo1435
Air New Zealand press release:
https://www.airnewzealand.com/press-rel ... reamliners

27 May 2019

At today's list prices, the agreement represents a value of US $2.7 billion. As is usual with such orders, Air New Zealand has negotiated a significant discount on current list prices and the parties have agreed not to disclose the actual purchase price.

The first of these highly fuel-efficient aircraft will join the Air New Zealand fleet in 2022 and together they will have the potential to save 190,000 tonnes of carbon per year.

Air New Zealand currently operates a fleet of 13 787-9 Dreamliners which Chief Executive Christopher Luxon says have proved to be the perfect aircraft for the airline's Pacific Rim focus.

“The 787-10 is longer and even more fuel efficient. However, the game changer for us has been that by working closely with Boeing, we've ensured the 787-10 will meet our network needs, including the ability to fly missions similar to our current 777-200 fleet.

“This is a hugely important decision for our airline. With the 787-10 offering almost 15 percent more space for customers and cargo than the 787-9, this investment creates the platform for our future strategic direction and opens up new opportunities to grow,” says Mr Luxon.

In addition to the eight firm orders announced today, the agreement includes options to increase the number of aircraft from eight to up to 20. The airline has also negotiated substitution rights that allow a switch from the larger 787-10 aircraft to smaller 787-9s, or a combination of the two models for future fleet and network flexibility. The delivery schedule can also be delayed or accelerated according to market demand.

These new long-haul aircraft will replace Air New Zealand's fleet of eight 777-200 aircraft, which will be phased out by 2025. Combined with GE's GEnx-1B engines, they are expected to be 25 percent more fuel efficient than the aircraft they're replacing.


Image

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 11:16 pm
by LAX772LR
Jefford717 wrote:
This is a huge blow to RR.
ikolkyo wrote:
A blow to RR indeed

And a self-inflicted one.

Though they better be glad that Boeing's original proposal for a common pylon/software allowing an engine OEM swap in less than 24hr... didn't pan out.

I'm wondering if this whole debacle actually gives them more incentive to go for that for-real on the MOM/NMA?

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 11:22 pm
by Arion640
Wow, the first time I think I’ve ever correctly predicted an order :D

Shame they didn’t go for Rollers, but totally understandable.

With ANZ’s 77W fleet being fairly young, I think the 777X is a long way off, if ever.

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 11:31 pm
by RJMAZ
This went as I predicted in the tech ops thread 4 months ago.

RJMAZ wrote:
tealnz wrote:
Whew. 77W replacement? I think you're being a bit ambitious mate.

Not ambitious at all.

Three quarters of the 777-300ER's routes used by Air New Zealand the 787-10 can comfortably fly with the same passenger load. So on three quarters of the routes they will have a massive per seat efficiency gain.

On the remaining quarter longest routes used by the 777-300ER, these can simply be downgauged slightly to 787-9's.

Air New Zealand has most of their routes in the 787-10 sweet spot.

If Air New Zealand went with A350's they would have to fill them to the brim with extra cargo on these 4500nm-5500nm routes to utilize their excellent payload range. Otherwise they would be taking off well below MTOW and offer no advnantage over the 787-10.

Air New Zealand has 9 777-200ER's and 8 777-300ER's. So this order of 8 787-10's and 12 787-9 options is also replacing the 777W fleet next decade. The options are to get delivery slots.

People often think aircraft get replaced by the model that is the closest in floor area and range, this is very rarely the case.

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 11:32 pm
by zkncj
Arion640 wrote:
With ANZ’s 77W fleet being fairly young, I think the 777X is a long way off, if ever.


They are 2010-2014 so are starting to need there replacements to be planned, e.g. an 4-5 years lead time of getting the new aircraft starting to roll into the fleet from ordering.

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 11:34 pm
by x1234
Can the 787-10 do AKL-IAH full payload!? I know it can do SFO, LAX & YVR.

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 11:36 pm
by wangjm777
TWA772LR wrote:
Can these make it on AKL-IAH?


Shouldn’t be a problem. The UA 787-10 has proven to be a reliable 12-hour plane. With a less dense confit it can easily fly farther than that.

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 11:42 pm
by PixelPilot
Very nice order.
Congratz to ANZ and Boeing.
Can't wait to see it painted. They have one of the nicest liveries out there.

Anybody know maintenance wise if this will actually raise the cost as I presume they will be operating both engine types?

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 11:48 pm
by VirginFlyer
Another thing to consider here: the 787-9 is crewed by staff on the mid-haul contract, compared to the 777-200ER/-300ER on the long-haul contract. I would expect they would want to keep the 787-10 on the mid-haul contract too, which means a sizeable chunk of flying moving from one group to another. It will be interesting to see how this plays out with the staff.

LAX772LR wrote:
Though they better be glad that Boeing's original proposal for a common pylon/software allowing an engine OEM swap in less than 24hr... didn't pan out.

Did enough of it survive to make re-engining from one to the other possible, even if not in the original timeframe? If so, I wonder whether GE is going to try to go after and engine replacement for the 14 789s?

V/F

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 11:52 pm
by Ellofiend
zkncj wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
With ANZ’s 77W fleet being fairly young, I think the 777X is a long way off, if ever.


They are 2010-2014 so are starting to need there replacements to be planned, e.g. an 4-5 years lead time of getting the new aircraft starting to roll into the fleet from ordering.

So the oldest is 9 years going and you think they are needing to be planning replacements for them?

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Sun May 26, 2019 11:57 pm
by jayunited
x1234 wrote:
Can the 787-10 do AKL-IAH full payload!? I know it can do SFO, LAX & YVR.


Unless these are 787-10ERs (which right now don't exist) I don't see these aircraft being capable of handling a mission like AKL-IAH-AKL. For reference only currently UA's longest nonstop on a 78J is EWR-TLV-EWR, at 4949 NM, by comparison AKL-IAH-AKL is 6443 NM. I could be wrong but I don't think the 78J can handle AKL-IAH-AKL.

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 12:02 am
by zkncj
Ellofiend wrote:
zkncj wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
With ANZ’s 77W fleet being fairly young, I think the 777X is a long way off, if ever.


They are 2010-2014 so are starting to need there replacements to be planned, e.g. an 4-5 years lead time of getting the new aircraft starting to roll into the fleet from ordering.

So the oldest is 9 years going and you think they are needing to be planning replacements for them?


Say you order in FY21 (July 2020 - June 2021) for first delivery in FY 2025, the oldest will be approaching 15-16 years.

By 2024 the 77E's will be gone, and it will be time to move onto the next project replacing the 77W and ZK-OX* A320 fleets...

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 12:14 am
by gregn21
1. I suspect this means no 778 in the future. The 778 would only be necessary at this point to replace aging 77W of which they only have 8. The additional 787 options foreshadow the eventual demise of the 777 in the ANZ fleet. It would not be surprising for them to stick with the 787 as their only long haul fleet type when the time comes for more replacements -- operating such a small fleet of 777X would make no financial or operational sense.

2. ANZ seems like the perfect candidate for the rumored 787-10ER/LR/XR for routes like IAH, ORD, South America, deeper Asia. The rumblings about using the standard -10 on a New York route are kind of ridiculous though. A -9 would be far more suitable if there is no range extension for the -10.

3. This is not good news for RR. I don't think any other 787 operator has switched from one engine manufacturer to another, so ANZ could set a defining trend with this decision. I suspect others will follow, especially operators with relatively small fleets.

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 12:14 am
by wangjm777
jayunited wrote:
x1234 wrote:
Can the 787-10 do AKL-IAH full payload!? I know it can do SFO, LAX & YVR.


Unless these are 787-10ERs (which right now don't exist) I don't see these aircraft being capable of handling a mission like AKL-IAH-AKL. For reference only currently UA's longest nonstop on a 78J is EWR-TLV-EWR, at 4949 NM, by comparison AKL-IAH-AKL is 6443 NM. I could be wrong but I don't think the 78J can handle AKL-IAH-AKL.


I think if the "full payload" doesn’t include cargo then 787-10 should be fine. It’s range is more than enough for 6500 nmi routes.

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 12:21 am
by LHA320
Quite logical step to keep their fleet within 2 pilot pools (A32X, 777/787). The 787 is an outstanding aircraft.
Congratulations to Boeing and NZ

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 12:37 am
by musman9853
hopefully we see one of their all black liveries, those are gorgeous.

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 12:48 am
by zkncj
LHA320 wrote:
Quite logical step to keep their fleet within 2 pilot pools (A32X, 777/787). The 787 is an outstanding aircraft.
Congratulations to Boeing and NZ


NZ have a different pilot pool for the 777 and 787 fleets - the 777's are operated by traditional 'Long-Haul' crew contractors, we're as the 787 are operated by crew on newer 'Medium-haul' crew contracts.

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 12:55 am
by 77H
Ellofiend wrote:
zkncj wrote:
Arion640 wrote:
With ANZ’s 77W fleet being fairly young, I think the 777X is a long way off, if ever.


They are 2010-2014 so are starting to need there replacements to be planned, e.g. an 4-5 years lead time of getting the new aircraft starting to roll into the fleet from ordering.

So the oldest is 9 years going and you think they are needing to be planning replacements for them?


Isn’t the average age of NZ’s 77E fleet only 12 years old ? By aircraft standards that still pretty young. Most of the US3’s 777 fleets are much older with no immediate plans for replacement. So what makes NZ so different that they need to look to replace these relatively young aircraft ?

77H

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 1:15 am
by aviationaware
aerohottie wrote:
They have mentioned that the 78J ordered can do AKL-NYC, so that would be quite a range boost


Can you give a quote here? I find that highly unlikely. 789 certainly, but 78J would be a stretch.

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 1:17 am
by ZK-NBT
aviationaware wrote:
aerohottie wrote:
They have mentioned that the 78J ordered can do AKL-NYC, so that would be quite a range boost


Can you give a quote here? I find that highly unlikely. 789 certainly, but 78J would be a stretch.


That isn’t what it actually says, it will be a reconfigured 789 for ULH, no mention of the exact configuration or timeframe for that.

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 1:24 am
by StudiodeKadent
Seems like NZ are going to have the 7810 as their long-run "big jet" (and with the range extension and a well-spec'd layout it should be able to do LAX-LHR as well as SFO, PVG, and it can certainly do HKG and HND/NRT), and the 787-9 doing other routes. And the 787-9 with a premium-ish layout (perhaps the 7810's premium capacity in a 787-9's fuselage) would be able to make AKL - EWR.

"Smaller jets flying longer routes to more destinations at higher frequencies" is the future.

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 1:45 am
by SonomaFlyer
What range changes could NZ have negotiated for what looks to be a smallish order? I don't see this a/c going AKL-IAH 6,444 nm with a full load given the winds they will encounter.

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 2:02 am
by ORDfan101
Good for boeing! i am not sure about Iah-Akl working though

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 2:06 am
by NYKiwi
This order does make pure sense although A350 would have been good. What i found interesting is the comments on new cabins front to back.

I know alot comment on the cramped BP so maybe this is there opportunity to have a seat that fits / suits the 787. More importantly i am looking forward to econ. I can see them.moving away from 9 accross but i would like a little more pitch 31" is tight for the longer sectors. Sure the bean counters will have there say here.

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 2:07 am
by flee
aerohottie wrote:
Luxon also said that NZ had been working with Boeing to give the 78J more range, but didn't give specifics.
I wonder if Boeing will come out with more details on this.
They have mentioned that the 78J ordered can do AKL-NYC, so that would be quite a range boost

Congratulations to ANZ on their order. So they will now have a mixed fleet of RR and GE engined B787s. I believe the range boost may be achieved by a combination of measures - weight reduction, aero improvements, engine PIPs, cabin configuration and improvements in avionics.

NYKiwi wrote:
This order does make pure sense although A350 would have been good. What i found interesting is the comments on new cabins front to back.

I know alot comment on the cramped BP so maybe this is there opportunity to have a seat that fits / suits the 787. More importantly i am looking forward to econ. I can see them.moving away from 9 accross but i would like a little more pitch 31" is tight for the longer sectors. Sure the bean counters will have there say here.

I think the A350 suffered because it only has RR engines - ANZ has suffered because of the RR issues on their B789s and would not like to take any more risks with RR.

Yes, they could make the long haul cabin more comfortable for pax. Wider seats with more legroom would be very welcome. That will also imply a lower capacity and lower weight, thereby enabling some increase in the range of the aircraft.

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 2:10 am
by zkncj
SonomaFlyer wrote:
What range changes could NZ have negotiated for what looks to be a smallish order?.


It could be an hint of whats about to come for Qantas 'Project Sunrise', it could be that Boeing is doing an deal for NZ/QF to get the extra range out of the 787-10.

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 2:12 am
by Weatherwatcher1
VirginFlyer wrote:
Another thing to consider here: the 787-9 is crewed by staff on the mid-haul contract, compared to the 777-200ER/-300ER on the long-haul contract. I would expect they would want to keep the 787-10 on the mid-haul contract too, which means a sizeable chunk of flying moving from one group to another. It will be interesting to see how this plays out with the staff.

LAX772LR wrote:
Though they better be glad that Boeing's original proposal for a common pylon/software allowing an engine OEM swap in less than 24hr... didn't pan out.

Did enough of it survive to make re-engining from one to the other possible, even if not in the original timeframe? If so, I wonder whether GE is going to try to go after and engine replacement for the 14 789s?

V/F


what is the difference in the contracts? Is it a leftover from when they flew 767s?

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 2:21 am
by StudiodeKadent
SonomaFlyer wrote:
What range changes could NZ have negotiated for what looks to be a smallish order? I don't see this a/c going AKL-IAH 6,444 nm with a full load given the winds they will encounter.


Its probably just a PIP or two, maybe some extra fuel capacity.

The 787-10 will not be flying to IAH. It will be doing "big Pacific Rim cities" routes. LAX, SFO, PVG, HND, PEK (possibly), HKG, SIN.

IAH, ORD, EWR (eventually), and South America will all be 787-9.

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 2:23 am
by MrHMSH
It'll be quite impressive if the 78X can indeed make the same destinations as the 77E, AKL-IAH is a pretty lengthy 6444nm, and even AKL-LAX is 5652nm.

zkncj wrote:
It could be an hint of whats about to come for Qantas 'Project Sunrise', it could be that Boeing is doing an deal for NZ/QF to get the extra range out of the 787-10.


QF aren't considering the 787 for Project Sunrise, and even if they were the -10 simply cannot make it, you'd have to get a nearly 3000nm improvement in order to make it.

x1234 wrote:
Can the 787-10 do AKL-IAH full payload!? I know it can do SFO, LAX & YVR.


What do you mean by 'full payload'? My understanding is that the 78X can lift its full payload up to 4200nm, after which payload has to be lighter. AKL-LAX is a fair way further out than that (5652nm). I'm sure the 78X could make it to those places with full or near full passenger and bags, but I'd be surprised if there isn't some compromise, the 78X is not an ultra long-hauler.

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 2:31 am
by behramjee
The B781 can fly to LAX SFO but it won’t be able to operate to YVR ICN with a full payload as these flights are over 13 hours long.

PEK and PVG are on the borderline but if the B781ER gets launched as some people above are suggesting then I expect it to allow the aircraft to fly an additional 90 minutes so realistically it would be able to operate 13:30-13:45 with a full payload. This would enable all of North America West Coast (not IAH) and all of SE Asia to be flown with a full payload.

Overall a very good selection of aircraft made by ANZ instead of opting for the B778X for EWR GRU etc + out of the 12 options I expect it to be excercised for a mix of both -9s and -10s rather than for a single type.

Re: NZ orders 8x 78J (GE) with options for 12x 787

Posted: Mon May 27, 2019 2:33 am
by lightsaber
Existing prior thread:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1422937