blacksoviet
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What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 6:50 am

What kind of equipment do they fly now?
 
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AirKevin
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 10:31 am

If they're still flying, I guess they'd be flying whatever aircraft was available and/or whatever had available slots. And I say if they're still flying because it's entirely possible that some pilots are old enough that the cost of training isn't justified, so they may have retired instead.
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gwrudolph
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 10:46 am

They bid for positions based on their seniority then they are retrained for the new fleet they will be flying. Given that most 744s were SFO-based at the end and the 77W is primarily SFO-based, my guess is a lot of them are flying same/similar routes but now with the 77W vs the 744
 
MIflyer12
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 10:47 am

The As probably fly whatever they want - by virtue of seniority bidding. Costs of training are borne by the company. As with every U.S. passenger carrier...
 
gwrudolph
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 10:50 am

AirKevin wrote:
If they're still flying, I guess they'd be flying whatever aircraft was available and/or whatever had available slots. And I say if they're still flying because it's entirely possible that some pilots are old enough that the cost of training isn't justified, so they may have retired instead.


It really isn’t a cost question. If the pilot wants to keep flying and is eligible to continue doing so, they bid another line and the company retrains them for the new type. Of course, I suppose the company in cooperation with the union could make them an offer to incent retirement if it made sense financially for both the company and the individual
 
kaitak
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 10:58 am

I would imagine most, if not all, FOs, got their commands, as they would have been quite senior in the FO lists?
 
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AirKevin
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 11:07 am

gwrudolph wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
If they're still flying, I guess they'd be flying whatever aircraft was available and/or whatever had available slots. And I say if they're still flying because it's entirely possible that some pilots are old enough that the cost of training isn't justified, so they may have retired instead.

It really isn’t a cost question. If the pilot wants to keep flying and is eligible to continue doing so, they bid another line and the company retrains them for the new type. Of course, I suppose the company in cooperation with the union could make them an offer to incent retirement if it made sense financially for both the company and the individual

Okay, but is a pilot that would have retired a month or two after the 747s got retired really going to train on a new type? Would it be worth it at that point.
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Polot
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 11:15 am

AirKevin wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
If they're still flying, I guess they'd be flying whatever aircraft was available and/or whatever had available slots. And I say if they're still flying because it's entirely possible that some pilots are old enough that the cost of training isn't justified, so they may have retired instead.

It really isn’t a cost question. If the pilot wants to keep flying and is eligible to continue doing so, they bid another line and the company retrains them for the new type. Of course, I suppose the company in cooperation with the union could make them an offer to incent retirement if it made sense financially for both the company and the individual

Okay, but is a pilot that would have retired a month or two after the 747s got retired really going to train on a new type? Would it be worth it at that point.

If the pilot waited that long then he/she is intending to retire. Remember it’s not like all the 747 pilots are all retrained only as soon as the fleet is retired. They are slowly switched to new types overtime as the 747 fleet is reduced and there is a need for fewer 747 pilots. Someone that close to retirement likely had the seniority to switch early if they wanted.
 
jayunited
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 11:35 am

AirKevin wrote:
Okay, but is a pilot that would have retired a month or two after the 747s got retired really going to train on a new type? Would it be worth it at that point.


UA had a few pilots who decided retired along with the queen of the skies. Some had the age and years of service while other were nearing the mandatory retirement age and they just decided they would leave. For those 747 pilots who stayed they were split up between the 77W and the 788/9 fleets. For years the Queen was the pinnacle at UA for many pilots, now looking at the seniority list both the 77W and 787 are neck and neck. Both these aircraft fly to some interesting places and if a pilot doesn't have the seniority to hold one they may have the seniority to hold the other.
 
ManoaChris
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 11:48 am

How long did retraining take for a 747 pilot → 777/787?
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 12:19 pm

ManoaChris wrote:
How long did retraining take for a 747 pilot → 777/787?

A month is standard for learning a new type.
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AirKevin
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 12:19 pm

Polot wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
It really isn’t a cost question. If the pilot wants to keep flying and is eligible to continue doing so, they bid another line and the company retrains them for the new type. Of course, I suppose the company in cooperation with the union could make them an offer to incent retirement if it made sense financially for both the company and the individual

Okay, but is a pilot that would have retired a month or two after the 747s got retired really going to train on a new type? Would it be worth it at that point.

If the pilot waited that long then he/she is intending to retire. Remember it’s not like all the 747 pilots are all retrained only as soon as the fleet is retired. They are slowly switched to new types overtime as the 747 fleet is reduced and there is a need for fewer 747 pilots. Someone that close to retirement likely had the seniority to switch early if they wanted.

jayunited wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
Okay, but is a pilot that would have retired a month or two after the 747s got retired really going to train on a new type? Would it be worth it at that point.

UA had a few pilots who decided retired along with the queen of the skies. Some had the age and years of service while other were nearing the mandatory retirement age and they just decided they would leave. For those 747 pilots who stayed they were split up between the 77W and the 788/9 fleets. For years the Queen was the pinnacle at UA for many pilots, now looking at the seniority list both the 77W and 787 are neck and neck. Both these aircraft fly to some interesting places and if a pilot doesn't have the seniority to hold one they may have the seniority to hold the other.

Right. The original question had asked what equipment they were flying on now, and my point was you can't necessarily assume they're even flying now at all. Yes, most of them are likely flying something else, but you've got the few that retired afterwards.
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MIflyer12
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 12:45 pm

kaitak wrote:
I would imagine most, if not all, FOs, got their commands, as they would have been quite senior in the FO lists?


That depends on what they wanted to fly. They probably had the seniority to fly captain on a 739. If they like the trip structure of intercon flights and wanted to keep that they might not have had the seniority to pull captain 777.
 
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 2:37 pm

jayunited wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
Okay, but is a pilot that would have retired a month or two after the 747s got retired really going to train on a new type? Would it be worth it at that point.


UA had a few pilots who decided retired along with the queen of the skies. Some had the age and years of service while other were nearing the mandatory retirement age and they just decided they would leave. For those 747 pilots who stayed they were split up between the 77W and the 788/9 fleets. For years the Queen was the pinnacle at UA for many pilots, now looking at the seniority list both the 77W and 787 are neck and neck. Both these aircraft fly to some interesting places and if a pilot doesn't have the seniority to hold one they may have the seniority to hold the other.


They wouldn't have necessarily gone to the 777 or 787. It depends on what their seniority could hold and what they wanted to bid. They could have gone to any aircraft/seat in the fleet if they could hold it.
 
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 5:42 pm

jayunited wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
Okay, but is a pilot that would have retired a month or two after the 747s got retired really going to train on a new type? Would it be worth it at that point.


UA had a few pilots who decided retired along with the queen of the skies. Some had the age and years of service while other were nearing the mandatory retirement age and they just decided they would leave. For those 747 pilots who stayed they were split up between the 77W and the 788/9 fleets. For years the Queen was the pinnacle at UA for many pilots, now looking at the seniority list both the 77W and 787 are neck and neck. Both these aircraft fly to some interesting places and if a pilot doesn't have the seniority to hold one they may have the seniority to hold the other.


Eh I'm not so sure about that. Pay rates are the same, I believe, for the 764, 777, and 787. If I held a bad line on the 747, and then an equally bad line on the 777, 764, or the 787 (which I'd be interested to know how much more senior the 787 goes), vs. a much better line on the 756 or even the 737 I know where I'd go...
 
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 9:35 pm

Jongum wrote:
They wouldn't have necessarily gone to the 777 or 787. It depends on what their seniority could hold and what they wanted to bid. They could have gone to any aircraft/seat in the fleet if they could hold it.


As the 744s approach the end of their life with UA most pilots on the 744 had at least 20 years of seniority as a UA pilot. When UA moved the 744s from ORD to SFO for the last and final time most of the ORD based pilots migrated over the the 772 those who at ORD who couldn't hold the 772 went 757/763, they didn't follow the 744 to SFO. At SFO as the aircraft were retired because these captains and first officers are so senior many were able to hold any aircraft of their choosing many chose either the 77W or the 787. This cause some reverberations throughout the fleet but it is also why everything is based on seniority. For those pilots who had the seniority and still wanted to continue flying international routes out of SFO they went to either the 77W or 787.

catiii wrote:
Eh I'm not so sure about that. Pay rates are the same, I believe, for the 764, 777, and 787. If I held a bad line on the 747, and then an equally bad line on the 777, 764, or the 787 (which I'd be interested to know how much more senior the 787 goes), vs. a much better line on the 756 or even the 737 I know where I'd go...


Personally and this is just my opinion, the 744s didn't have a bad line because as we approach the end, because the aircraft flew international routes only from ORD and SFO and was removed from domestic flying. The 77W is only scheduled to fly international routes, and 787 while it is used domestically I would imagine the lines for a 787-8/9-10 would be at least 90% better than the lines on any 757 or the 737.
 
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 9:38 pm

Lots of DL 744 pilots went to the 359. If you read the APC forums, there's lots of sour grapes about it - allegedly many (most?) are hitting retirement age shortly after transition, including some aging out while still in training.
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CATIIIevery5yrs
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 9:40 pm

ManoaChris wrote:
How long did retraining take for a 747 pilot → 777/787?


Probably some online training and a handful of training sims, then maneuvers validation sim, and a LOFT sim. Do some time in the plane on OE and you’re good to go. It moves pretty quick these days.
 
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 9:45 pm

CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
ManoaChris wrote:
How long did retraining take for a 747 pilot → 777/787?


Probably some online training and a handful of training sims, then maneuvers validation sim, and a LOFT sim. Do some time in the plane on OE and you’re good to go. It moves pretty quick these days.


I don't think so, from 777 to 787 or vice Versa is that fast but going from B747 to B777 or B787 you need to get a proper type rating which would take around a month to 40 days
 
CATIIIevery5yrs
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 10:01 pm

Slash787 wrote:
CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
ManoaChris wrote:
How long did retraining take for a 747 pilot → 777/787?


Probably some online training and a handful of training sims, then maneuvers validation sim, and a LOFT sim. Do some time in the plane on OE and you’re good to go. It moves pretty quick these days.


I don't think so, from 777 to 787 or vice Versa is that fast but going from B747 to B777 or B787 you need to get a proper type rating which would take around a month to 40 days


Well I can only speak from my personal experience at a US carrier. I have 3 type ratings from my air carrier and that’s how it worked for me.
 
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 10:30 pm

compensateme wrote:
Lots of DL 744 pilots went to the 359. If you read the APC forums, there's lots of sour grapes about it - allegedly many (most?) are hitting retirement age shortly after transition, including some aging out while still in training.


Who's upset about it? Senior pilots are exercising their seniority rights. The company is processing bidding and training per contract.
 
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 11:05 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Lots of DL 744 pilots went to the 359. If you read the APC forums, there's lots of sour grapes about it - allegedly many (most?) are hitting retirement age shortly after transition, including some aging out while still in training.


Who's upset about it? Senior pilots are exercising their seniority rights. The company is processing bidding and training per contract.


DL could have tried to work out some early buyout incentive, but then they would probably have to offer that to people with similar seniority on other AC.

This happens quite often in a variety of unionized industries where your retirement is based on your years and./or combination of age. Many places you can retire at 15 years, 20, 25, etc, and as you hit the higher mark you get a higher pension monthly.

If I had 19 years, 8 months service in. I'd certainly train for 4 month and hit the 20 year mark.
 
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 11:23 pm

Could bidding kick less senior pilots from certain types into another aircraft type? (i.e., 757/767 pilot getting outbid by a former 747 pilot)? Seems like this would be discouraged to reduce training costs. Or is there also such a thing as "type" seniority?
 
gwrudolph
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 11:29 pm

AirKevin wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
If they're still flying, I guess they'd be flying whatever aircraft was available and/or whatever had available slots. And I say if they're still flying because it's entirely possible that some pilots are old enough that the cost of training isn't justified, so they may have retired instead.

It really isn’t a cost question. If the pilot wants to keep flying and is eligible to continue doing so, they bid another line and the company retrains them for the new type. Of course, I suppose the company in cooperation with the union could make them an offer to incent retirement if it made sense financially for both the company and the individual

Okay, but is a pilot that would have retired a month or two after the 747s got retired really going to train on a new type? Would it be worth it at that point.


Worth it to who? The individual might want to work a few more months or might be a few months from a milestone and the company doesn’t really have a choice unless they want to incent the individual
 
LDRA
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Tue May 28, 2019 11:49 pm

They were moved to bottom of seniority list and could only bid on RJs
 
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Slash787
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Wed May 29, 2019 12:29 am

CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
Well I can only speak from my personal experience at a US carrier. I have 3 type ratings from my air carrier and that’s how it worked for me.


Dang, I did not know that it would be that fast, which aircraft do you fly currently?
 
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Wed May 29, 2019 12:38 am

CarlosSi wrote:
Could bidding kick less senior pilots from certain types into another aircraft type? (i.e., 757/767 pilot getting outbid by a former 747 pilot)? Seems like this would be discouraged to reduce training costs.


The contract says what the contract says, and it pretty much says "you bid based on seniority." If displaced 747 pilots all went to the 756, and that created a ripple effect big enough to displace 756 pilots, then you might well have a few pilots bumped to the 737 or A320. The airline will pay for the training.
 
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Wed May 29, 2019 1:06 am

Slash787 wrote:
CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
ManoaChris wrote:
How long did retraining take for a 747 pilot → 777/787?


Probably some online training and a handful of training sims, then maneuvers validation sim, and a LOFT sim. Do some time in the plane on OE and you’re good to go. It moves pretty quick these days.


I don't think so, from 777 to 787 or vice Versa is that fast but going from B747 to B777 or B787 you need to get a proper type rating which would take around a month to 40 days


23 day footprint at United in the training center and home study. OE is not included in that time frame.

There are displacement bids. Pilots can go anywhere their seniority can hold. If the #1 SFO 747 Captain wants to be an A320 FO in EWR then that is what he gets.

If SFO 777 requires 100 Captains and 50 747 CAs bid SFO 777 CA the company has 2 choices, either run fat or displace 777 captains. If they choose to displace they go where their seniority holds. This will continue until the company is happy with the results or the most junior pilots get furloughed.
 
Jongum
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Wed May 29, 2019 1:37 am

jayunited wrote:
Jongum wrote:
They wouldn't have necessarily gone to the 777 or 787. It depends on what their seniority could hold and what they wanted to bid. They could have gone to any aircraft/seat in the fleet if they could hold it.


As the 744s approach the end of their life with UA most pilots on the 744 had at least 20 years of seniority as a UA pilot. When UA moved the 744s from ORD to SFO for the last and final time most of the ORD based pilots migrated over the the 772 those who at ORD who couldn't hold the 772 went 757/763, they didn't follow the 744 to SFO. At SFO as the aircraft were retired because these captains and first officers are so senior many were able to hold any aircraft of their choosing many chose either the 77W or the 787. This cause some reverberations throughout the fleet but it is also why everything is based on seniority. For those pilots who had the seniority and still wanted to continue flying international routes out of SFO they went to either the 77W or 787.

Your original quote was that all the 747 pilots went to the 777 or 787, which is incorrect. Not all of them did. Many chose to continue on those aircraft, but some decided to bid 756, 737 or Airbus. I'm very much aware of how seniority works since I have been in the Continental/United system for 29 years.
 
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Wed May 29, 2019 2:27 am

kaitak wrote:
I would imagine most, if not all, FOs, got their commands, as they would have been quite senior in the FO lists?

they might go to the bottom of the Captain seniority list as well
 
catiii
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Wed May 29, 2019 3:41 am

jayunited wrote:
Jongum wrote:
They wouldn't have necessarily gone to the 777 or 787. It depends on what their seniority could hold and what they wanted to bid. They could have gone to any aircraft/seat in the fleet if they could hold it.


As the 744s approach the end of their life with UA most pilots on the 744 had at least 20 years of seniority as a UA pilot. When UA moved the 744s from ORD to SFO for the last and final time most of the ORD based pilots migrated over the the 772 those who at ORD who couldn't hold the 772 went 757/763, they didn't follow the 744 to SFO. At SFO as the aircraft were retired because these captains and first officers are so senior many were able to hold any aircraft of their choosing many chose either the 77W or the 787. This cause some reverberations throughout the fleet but it is also why everything is based on seniority. For those pilots who had the seniority and still wanted to continue flying international routes out of SFO they went to either the 77W or 787.

catiii wrote:
Eh I'm not so sure about that. Pay rates are the same, I believe, for the 764, 777, and 787. If I held a bad line on the 747, and then an equally bad line on the 777, 764, or the 787 (which I'd be interested to know how much more senior the 787 goes), vs. a much better line on the 756 or even the 737 I know where I'd go...


Personally and this is just my opinion, the 744s didn't have a bad line because as we approach the end, because the aircraft flew international routes only from ORD and SFO and was removed from domestic flying. The 77W is only scheduled to fly international routes, and 787 while it is used domestically I would imagine the lines for a 787-8/9-10 would be at least 90% better than the lines on any 757 or the 737.


90% better than what though? If I’m barely holding a line on the 787 and am holding a much better line on the 756 or 737, how are the 787 lines 90% better?
 
catiii
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Wed May 29, 2019 3:43 am

Jongum wrote:
jayunited wrote:
Jongum wrote:
They wouldn't have necessarily gone to the 777 or 787. It depends on what their seniority could hold and what they wanted to bid. They could have gone to any aircraft/seat in the fleet if they could hold it.


As the 744s approach the end of their life with UA most pilots on the 744 had at least 20 years of seniority as a UA pilot. When UA moved the 744s from ORD to SFO for the last and final time most of the ORD based pilots migrated over the the 772 those who at ORD who couldn't hold the 772 went 757/763, they didn't follow the 744 to SFO. At SFO as the aircraft were retired because these captains and first officers are so senior many were able to hold any aircraft of their choosing many chose either the 77W or the 787. This cause some reverberations throughout the fleet but it is also why everything is based on seniority. For those pilots who had the seniority and still wanted to continue flying international routes out of SFO they went to either the 77W or 787.

Your original quote was that all the 747 pilots went to the 777 or 787, which is incorrect. Not all of them did. Many chose to continue on those aircraft, but some decided to bid 756, 737 or Airbus. I'm very much aware of how seniority works since I have been in the Continental/United system for 29 years.


Out of curiosity, does the 787 go pretty senior? At those pay rates I imagine it might but one never knows...
 
imthedreamliner
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Wed May 29, 2019 3:59 am

They opened a groccery shop with their flying certificate hanging on the wall :))
 
UA444
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Wed May 29, 2019 4:32 am

The airlines scrapped them.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Wed May 29, 2019 9:21 am

gwrudolph wrote:
AirKevin wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
It really isn’t a cost question. If the pilot wants to keep flying and is eligible to continue doing so, they bid another line and the company retrains them for the new type. Of course, I suppose the company in cooperation with the union could make them an offer to incent retirement if it made sense financially for both the company and the individual

Okay, but is a pilot that would have retired a month or two after the 747s got retired really going to train on a new type? Would it be worth it at that point.

Worth it to who? The individual might want to work a few more months or might be a few months from a milestone and the company doesn’t really have a choice unless they want to incent the individual

For the pilots. If you've got a couple months to go, that's one thing. I'm saying if you've got a month or less.
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jayunited
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Wed May 29, 2019 12:14 pm

catiii wrote:
90% better than what though? If I’m barely holding a line on the 787 and am holding a much better line on the 756 or 737, how are the 787 lines 90% better?


What lines do you think are available out of SFO? If we are strictly talking about where former 744 pilots end up after the retirement of the Queen then at UA we are strictly looking at the SFO based pilots only. There was no other pilot base for these aircraft as UA approached at the end of their life. When you look at the 757 and 737 scheduled flying done out of SFO all of it is either domestic or short haul international to either Canada or Mexico. It doesn't matter that your barely holding a 77W or 787 line if you want to flying international long haul routes out of SFO 90% if not more of the 77W and 787 lines are better than any line you will get flying domestically where you would be up, down up, down several times a day. Which also explains why the 77W and 787 are so senior it is because when a line opens up someone from a junior fleet type jumps on the line even if it means going from the top of the 757 or 737 seniority list to the bottom of the 77W or 787 list. When I was working at ORD I worked mostly international flights talking to pilots who flew the 744, then the 77E ORD-HKG-SIN-HKG-ORD many swore they would never voluntarily go back to domestic flying because in 2 roundtrips they had their hours. Then if they wanted to they could pick up an open domestic trip or enjoy the rest of the month off. Again most of the men and women who flew the 744 had a minimum of 20 years seniority as a United pilot which is a lot different than 20 years of seniority with United. Look at the schedule out of SFO even if you are the absolute last person on the 787 seniority list the line you have is way better than most domestic lines.

United has a lot of pilots who have no interest in long haul flying if that is you then of course being the senior man or woman on a 757 or 737 line is your best option but for those pilots who enjoy these long and ultra long haul flights and for those who are junior who want to do international long haul flying, they will take what ever line is available on the 77W or 787. Again look at the SFO schedule for both the 77W or 787 and tell me where do you see a terrible line?
Last edited by jayunited on Wed May 29, 2019 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Wed May 29, 2019 12:15 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
What kind of equipment do they fly now?


My brother-in-law transitioned to the 777 (DL).

LDRA wrote:
They were moved to bottom of seniority list and could only bid on RJs


:rotfl:
Welcome to Nothingburgers. May I take your order?
 
ual763
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Wed May 29, 2019 12:28 pm

Near the end, even the FOs were extremely senior. On the 2nd to last flight, the FO was with the company for 25 years. He flew the same plane (-400) the entire time as an FO). He was most senior FO. After 747 retirement he finally switched over to 787 Captain. Now, he probably could have been a 747 Captain a bit earlier, but as top FO, he would have best schedule anyone could ask for. Basically, whatever he wanted, he got. He is moving up to 787 Captain so that he can retrire a Captain. And now with 25 years at the company, he can hold a decent Captain line to.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
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OneSexyL1011
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Wed May 29, 2019 12:51 pm

I know of a few 747 FO's that bid captain lines on 737s and Airbus outside of the 747 domicile.

Too much over complication in this thread. 747 pilots went wherever their seniority allowed them to choose. Some went to the 777, some the 767, some the Airbus/737. FOs moved to the left seat or stayed FO on a different fleet type. Some captains moved and some just retired with the 747 fleet.

That's all there is to it. They bid, they go to training, they fly.
 
triple3driver
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Wed May 29, 2019 3:52 pm

I don't know about United, but at Delta, many of the captains that didn't retire went to captain the A350, while a lot of the F/Os become captains on other aircraft. This is of course not universal, many decided to go enjoy the short haul lifestyle, others went to the 767, 777, or A330. In fact I think that we may have a few A330 captains at my domicile who formerly flew the 747, I may have to double check on that. I never flew with any of them personally, but I imagine that the conversations would be quite interesting.
I have no special talents, just a passion for flying
 
airbazar
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Wed May 29, 2019 4:06 pm

seabosdca wrote:
CarlosSi wrote:
Could bidding kick less senior pilots from certain types into another aircraft type? (i.e., 757/767 pilot getting outbid by a former 747 pilot)? Seems like this would be discouraged to reduce training costs.


The contract says what the contract says, and it pretty much says "you bid based on seniority." If displaced 747 pilots all went to the 756, and that created a ripple effect big enough to displace 756 pilots, then you might well have a few pilots bumped to the 737 or A320. The airline will pay for the training.


Yup. And it's not always about the bigger plane. I've known about senior pilots who chose to "downgauge" to the 737/A320 so they can sleep in their own beds every night and spend more time with their family.
 
catiii
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Wed May 29, 2019 6:59 pm

jayunited wrote:
catiii wrote:
90% better than what though? If I’m barely holding a line on the 787 and am holding a much better line on the 756 or 737, how are the 787 lines 90% better?


What lines do you think are available out of SFO? If we are strictly talking about where former 744 pilots end up after the retirement of the Queen then at UA we are strictly looking at the SFO based pilots only. There was no other pilot base for these aircraft as UA approached at the end of their life. When you look at the 757 and 737 scheduled flying done out of SFO all of it is either domestic or short haul international to either Canada or Mexico. It doesn't matter that your barely holding a 77W or 787 line if you want to flying international long haul routes out of SFO 90% if not more of the 77W and 787 lines are better than any line you will get flying domestically where you would be up, down up, down several times a day. Which also explains why the 77W and 787 are so senior it is because when a line opens up someone from a junior fleet type jumps on the line even if it means going from the top of the 757 or 737 seniority list to the bottom of the 77W or 787 list. When I was working at ORD I worked mostly international flights talking to pilots who flew the 744, then the 77E ORD-HKG-SIN-HKG-ORD many swore they would never voluntarily go back to domestic flying because in 2 roundtrips they had their hours. Then if they wanted to they could pick up an open domestic trip or enjoy the rest of the month off. Again most of the men and women who flew the 744 had a minimum of 20 years seniority as a United pilot which is a lot different than 20 years of seniority with United. Look at the schedule out of SFO even if you are the absolute last person on the 787 seniority list the line you have is way better than most domestic lines.

United has a lot of pilots who have no interest in long haul flying if that is you then of course being the senior man or woman on a 757 or 737 line is your best option but for those pilots who enjoy these long and ultra long haul flights and for those who are junior who want to do international long haul flying, they will take what ever line is available on the 77W or 787. Again look at the SFO schedule for both the 77W or 787 and tell me where do you see a terrible line?



You keep saying they're 90% better lines. Better than what though?

And if I am last on the 787, sitting reserve, how is that necessarily better than holding a line that I want on the 756?
 
Judge1310
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Wed May 29, 2019 7:59 pm

Slash787 wrote:
CATIIIevery5yrs wrote:
ManoaChris wrote:
How long did retraining take for a 747 pilot → 777/787?


Probably some online training and a handful of training sims, then maneuvers validation sim, and a LOFT sim. Do some time in the plane on OE and you’re good to go. It moves pretty quick these days.


I don't think so, from 777 to 787 or vice Versa is that fast but going from B747 to B777 or B787 you need to get a proper type rating which would take around a month to 40 days


At my carrier when a pilot converts aircraft then they go through Transition Training which is shorter than Initial. Generally Transition Training from a narrowbody to the 777 takes about 23 days (or so) from the CBTs (technically done at home), to Systems, then Procedures, then Maneuvers, then LOFT, then final sign-off from an Evaluator, then out on the line to complete the OE.

It's not as "mystical" as some may make it out to be.
 
ScottB
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Wed May 29, 2019 10:05 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?


AFAIK they were parked in the desert as well, but at retirement communities near PHX and TUS.
 
dr1980
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Wed May 29, 2019 10:56 pm

Out of curiosity, what provisions do airlines typically have on minimum time spent with a certain type rating? IE, if the airline trains someone on a certain aircraft, how long would they need to stay on that aircraft before exercising seniority to move to a new aircraft type?
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jayunited
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 1:44 am

catiii wrote:
You keep saying they're 90% better lines. Better than what though?

And if I am last on the 787, sitting reserve, how is that necessarily better than holding a line that I want on the 756?


Here is one actual example of a 737 a 757 and a 787 line out of SFO

B737: SFO-ORD, overnight hotel; ORD-TPA overnight hotel; TPA-IAH, IAH-YVR overnight hotel; YVR-DEN, DEN-SFO end. Total flight hours for this line 19:48
B757: SFO-BOS, overnigh hotel; BOS-SFO, SFO-LAS, overnight hotel; LAS-EWR overnight hotel, EWR-SFO end. Total flight hours for this line 25:24
B787: SFO-SIN overnight hotel (37 hours free from duty) SIN-SFO end. Total flight hours for this line 31:40

Like I already stated some pilots have no interest in flying long haul or ultra long haul routes but for those who do even if they are on reserve they could make their hours for the month in 3 or 4 round trips. If you able to do it in 3 round trip most lines out of SFO have the pilot away from home for 12 days, leaving that pilot with 18 days off. It is hard if not impossible to find a domestic line that give you all your hours only being away from home base for 12 day.
 
catiii
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 2:31 am

jayunited wrote:
catiii wrote:
You keep saying they're 90% better lines. Better than what though?

And if I am last on the 787, sitting reserve, how is that necessarily better than holding a line that I want on the 756?


Here is one actual example of a 737 a 757 and a 787 line out of SFO

B737: SFO-ORD, overnight hotel; ORD-TPA overnight hotel; TPA-IAH, IAH-YVR overnight hotel; YVR-DEN, DEN-SFO end. Total flight hours for this line 19:48
B757: SFO-BOS, overnigh hotel; BOS-SFO, SFO-LAS, overnight hotel; LAS-EWR overnight hotel, EWR-SFO end. Total flight hours for this line 25:24
B787: SFO-SIN overnight hotel (37 hours free from duty) SIN-SFO end. Total flight hours for this line 31:40

Like I already stated some pilots have no interest in flying long haul or ultra long haul routes but for those who do even if they are on reserve they could make their hours for the month in 3 or 4 round trips. If you able to do it in 3 round trip most lines out of SFO have the pilot away from home for 12 days, leaving that pilot with 18 days off. It is hard if not impossible to find a domestic line that give you all your hours only being away from home base for 12 day.


Okay, but it’s not necessarily a better line if it’s a reserve line. You’re confusing “better” with “efficiency.” I think the disconnect here is that you’re not a pilot. If I can hold the 756 or 737, get the trips I want on the days that I want, nice layovers etc, 37 hours in Singapore following an all nighter TPAC followed by an all nighter back isn’t that appealing.

Also, I find it impossible that any 756 pilot rotation is built with a TCON followed by another leg on the same duty day (BOS-SFO-LAS), unless that rotation breaks regularly. Inflight I can see. Are these pilot rotations or inflight rotations you’re using as examples?
 
catiii
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 2:38 am

dr1980 wrote:
Out of curiosity, what provisions do airlines typically have on minimum time spent with a certain type rating? IE, if the airline trains someone on a certain aircraft, how long would they need to stay on that aircraft before exercising seniority to move to a new aircraft type?


It depends on the seat lock provisions of the contract. At my carrier (high level) a transition incurs a 1 year seat lock and an upgrade also incurs a 1 year seat lock. But it’s different for each carrier (if they have seat locks) and also has a bunch of caveats.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 2:49 am

ual763 wrote:
Near the end, even the FOs were extremely senior. On the 2nd to last flight, the FO was with the company for 25 years. He flew the same plane (-400) the entire time as an FO). He was most senior FO. After 747 retirement he finally switched over to 787 Captain. Now, he probably could have been a 747 Captain a bit earlier, but as top FO, he would have best schedule anyone could ask for. Basically, whatever he wanted, he got. He is moving up to 787 Captain so that he can retrire a Captain. And now with 25 years at the company, he can hold a decent Captain line to.

Are there any legacy 747-100 pilots still flying at Delta or United? How long did it take for a pilot to transition from the 747-100 to the 747-200?
 
kaitak
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 3:08 am

There wouldn't be any at DL, because their -100s were retired about 40 years ago. There are probably a fair number at UAL, because their last classics were only retired after 9/11. No conversion from the -100 to -200 is necessary (probably only a very short "differences" course for the SP, which they also flew, having inherited it from PA), but from the Classics to the -400 would probably be a fairly lengthy course, being far more automated.

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