CriticalPoint
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 3:27 am

catiii wrote:
Also, I find it impossible that any 756 pilot rotation is built with a TCON followed by another leg on the same duty day (BOS-SFO-LAS), unless that rotation breaks regularly.


Happens all the time especially on the 737 and A320. That’s why I fly INTL......I want to land and be done!
 
ual763
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 3:28 am

blacksoviet wrote:
ual763 wrote:
Near the end, even the FOs were extremely senior. On the 2nd to last flight, the FO was with the company for 25 years. He flew the same plane (-400) the entire time as an FO). He was most senior FO. After 747 retirement he finally switched over to 787 Captain. Now, he probably could have been a 747 Captain a bit earlier, but as top FO, he would have best schedule anyone could ask for. Basically, whatever he wanted, he got. He is moving up to 787 Captain so that he can retrire a Captain. And now with 25 years at the company, he can hold a decent Captain line to.

Are there any legacy 747-100 pilots still flying at Delta or United? How long did it take for a pilot to transition from the 747-100 to the 747-200?


The 747-100/200 had the same type rating. The pilots flew both, as well as the -SPs UA had gotten from PanAm. When the 747s were mainstream, FO slots were actually fairly junior in the 747. It wasn’t until her final days when both Captains and FOs were senior as hell. There are still a bunch of guys left at United that flew the Classic 747s.
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CriticalPoint
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 3:38 am

[quote="ual763}There are still a bunch of guys left at United that flew the Classic 747s.[/quote]

The Rope Starts
 
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7BOEING7
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 3:54 am

kaitak wrote:
There wouldn't be any at DL, because their -100s were retired about 40 years ago. There are probably a fair number at UAL, because their last classics were only retired after 9/11. No conversion from the -100 to -200 is necessary (probably only a very short "differences" course for the SP, which they also flew, having inherited it from PA), but from the Classics to the -400 would probably be a fairly lengthy course, being far more automated.


And since it was 2 crew instead of 3 (minus the flight engineer) it was a different type rating.
 
RetiredWeasel
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 4:46 am

kaitak wrote:
There wouldn't be any at DL, because their -100s were retired about 40 years ago. There are probably a fair number at UAL, because their last classics were only retired after 9/11. No conversion from the -100 to -200 is necessary (probably only a very short "differences" course for the SP, which they also flew, having inherited it from PA), but from the Classics to the -400 would probably be a fairly lengthy course, being far more automated.


Northwest retired their last 747-152 (N601US) in 2000. That was 19 years ago, so their could be and probably are some pilots still with Delta that flew it as an FO or SO.
 
blacksoviet
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 6:20 am

ual763 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
ual763 wrote:
Near the end, even the FOs were extremely senior. On the 2nd to last flight, the FO was with the company for 25 years. He flew the same plane (-400) the entire time as an FO). He was most senior FO. After 747 retirement he finally switched over to 787 Captain. Now, he probably could have been a 747 Captain a bit earlier, but as top FO, he would have best schedule anyone could ask for. Basically, whatever he wanted, he got. He is moving up to 787 Captain so that he can retrire a Captain. And now with 25 years at the company, he can hold a decent Captain line to.

Are there any legacy 747-100 pilots still flying at Delta or United? How long did it take for a pilot to transition from the 747-100 to the 747-200?


The 747-100/200 had the same type rating. The pilots flew both, as well as the -SPs UA had gotten from PanAm. When the 747s were mainstream, FO slots were actually fairly junior in the 747. It wasn’t until her final days when both Captains and FOs were senior as hell. There are still a bunch of guys left at United that flew the Classic 747s.

Do pilots prefer to fly the SP/Classic over the -400?
 
jayunited
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 11:49 am

catiii wrote:
Also, I find it impossible that any 756 pilot rotation is built with a TCON followed by another leg on the same duty day (BOS-SFO-LAS), unless that rotation breaks regularly. Inflight I can see. Are these pilot rotations or inflight rotations you’re using as examples?


This is the root cause of our disconnect the lines I posted are not fictional they are actual lines that pilots are flying each and every day. Perhaps years ago a pilot would fly a TCON and be done for the day that isn't the case today. Pilots today are flying TCONS BOS-SFO or IAD-SFO then turning and working a short hop flight like SFO-LAS, SFO-LAX, There are pilots flying SFO-ORD-MCO all in one day and when you look at some of these lines it becomes extremely clear how airlines run into trouble during inclement weather, why crews time out and why cancellations are so numerous. But yes the days of pilots only doing a singular TCON flight and being done for the day is over and I would imagine it is the same at AA and DL.
Which is part of the reason I stated in my opinion any international line is better than 90% of domestic lines. Domestically pilots out of SFO are up down, up down for probably 16-18 days in a month. An international pilot out of SFO as I stated can do 3-4 roundtrips and be done for the month, pilots who can do it in 3 roundtrip are away from home base for 12 days (barring any delays or cancelations). If I was a pilot and had the seniority even if it meant being on reserve I most certainly would bid for either the 77W or 787. You don't need to agree with my opinion on the 90% but those are actual pilot lines that are being flown today by UA pilots.
 
ual763
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 12:56 pm

blacksoviet wrote:
ual763 wrote:
blacksoviet wrote:
Are there any legacy 747-100 pilots still flying at Delta or United? How long did it take for a pilot to transition from the 747-100 to the 747-200?


The 747-100/200 had the same type rating. The pilots flew both, as well as the -SPs UA had gotten from PanAm. When the 747s were mainstream, FO slots were actually fairly junior in the 747. It wasn’t until her final days when both Captains and FOs were senior as hell. There are still a bunch of guys left at United that flew the Classic 747s.

Do pilots prefer to fly the SP/Classic over the -400?


Not necessarily. It is all personal preference. Some guys love the nostalgia and the "work" of flying the classics. Others like to sit and do nothing while the plane follows the magenta line. Personally, I prefer older cockpits. Now, the 727, every pilot I have ever met who had the pleasure of flying it, has said that was their favorite plane they've ever flown.
From flying to the NOTAM office
 
DALMD80
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 2:57 pm

77W maybe.
You can take the boy away from aviation, but you can't take aviation out of the boy.
 
Texas77
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 3:10 pm

jayunited wrote:
catiii wrote:
Also, I find it impossible that any 756 pilot rotation is built with a TCON followed by another leg on the same duty day (BOS-SFO-LAS), unless that rotation breaks regularly. Inflight I can see. Are these pilot rotations or inflight rotations you’re using as examples?


This is the root cause of our disconnect the lines I posted are not fictional they are actual lines that pilots are flying each and every day. Perhaps years ago a pilot would fly a TCON and be done for the day that isn't the case today. Pilots today are flying TCONS BOS-SFO or IAD-SFO then turning and working a short hop flight like SFO-LAS, SFO-LAX, There are pilots flying SFO-ORD-MCO all in one day and when you look at some of these lines it becomes extremely clear how airlines run into trouble during inclement weather, why crews time out and why cancellations are so numerous. But yes the days of pilots only doing a singular TCON flight and being done for the day is over and I would imagine it is the same at AA and DL.
Which is part of the reason I stated in my opinion any international line is better than 90% of domestic lines. Domestically pilots out of SFO are up down, up down for probably 16-18 days in a month. An international pilot out of SFO as I stated can do 3-4 roundtrips and be done for the month, pilots who can do it in 3 roundtrip are away from home base for 12 days (barring any delays or cancelations). If I was a pilot and had the seniority even if it meant being on reserve I most certainly would bid for either the 77W or 787. You don't need to agree with my opinion on the 90% but those are actual pilot lines that are being flown today by UA pilots.


yeah, it all really comes down to each person's preferences. my ex-stepfather only wanted long haul international. he retired with the 744. good buddy of mine has like 25 years on 737. he has no interest in overnighting anywhere, so he stays on 737, and being based at IAH, he has tons of options. if he could be the #1 guy on 787, he'd have no interest.
 
E90SLAM
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 3:14 pm

Will any DL/US 747 pilots venture to foreign countries who still flies 747s? (e.g. CX)
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 3:18 pm

Doubt it very much. They don’t need the jobs and CX likely aren’t interested.


Gf
 
BravoOne
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 4:27 pm

gwrudolph wrote:
They bid for positions based on their seniority then they are retrained for the new fleet they will be flying. Given that most 744s were SFO-based at the end and the 77W is primarily SFO-based, my guess is a lot of them are flying same/similar routes but now with the 77W vs the 744



Where do you come up with this stuff? The 747-400's were in DTW, ATL (?) at the end of their run. They never have been based in SFO, or LAX for that matter.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 4:37 pm

E90SLAM wrote:
Will any DL/US 747 pilots venture to foreign countries who still flies 747s? (e.g. CX)


Why would they? Seniority (under seniority line bidding) is THE TOOL to ensure you're flying the aircraft you want and the trips you want. Do you think a bunch of people are going to give up seniority rights at DL/UA just to avoid being retrained on a 77W or A350? Life can be very, very good as a 62-year old widebody pilot at the top of the seniority list at DL/UA.
 
dcaviation
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 4:55 pm

BravoOne wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
They bid for positions based on their seniority then they are retrained for the new fleet they will be flying. Given that most 744s were SFO-based at the end and the 77W is primarily SFO-based, my guess is a lot of them are flying same/similar routes but now with the 77W vs the 744



Where do you come up with this stuff? The 747-400's were in DTW, ATL (?) at the end of their run. They never have been based in SFO, or LAX for that matter.


It's called intelligent reading.
 
BravoOne
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 5:11 pm

dcaviation wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
They bid for positions based on their seniority then they are retrained for the new fleet they will be flying. Given that most 744s were SFO-based at the end and the 77W is primarily SFO-based, my guess is a lot of them are flying same/similar routes but now with the 77W vs the 744



Where do you come up with this stuff? The 747-400's were in DTW, ATL (?) at the end of their run. They never have been based in SFO, or LAX for that matter.


It's called intelligent reading.



No it's called fiction.
 
BravoOne
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 5:15 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
E90SLAM wrote:
Will any DL/US 747 pilots venture to foreign countries who still flies 747s? (e.g. CX)


Why would they? Seniority (under seniority line bidding) is THE TOOL to ensure you're flying the aircraft you want and the trips you want. Do you think a bunch of people are going to give up seniority rights at DL/UA just to avoid being retrained on a 77W or A350? Life can be very, very good as a 62-year old widebody pilot at the top of the seniority list at DL/UA.



Not to metion that very very, few airlines hire rirect entry Captains on their fleets, Seniority is simply not transferable between operators, much less 747 operators. Most certainly CX, would not participate in a scheme like this.
 
CriticalPoint
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 6:36 pm

BravoOne wrote:
dcaviation wrote:
BravoOne wrote:


Where do you come up with this stuff? The 747-400's were in DTW, ATL (?) at the end of their run. They never have been based in SFO, or LAX for that matter.


It's called intelligent reading.



No it's called fiction.


You do know that this thread is about UA and DL right?
 
BravoOne
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 7:57 pm

CriticalPoint wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
dcaviation wrote:

It's called intelligent reading.



No it's called fiction.


You do know that this thread is about UA and DL right?



Yes I know but for the sake of putting this debate rest, I'll just ignore your comments. Give it a rest.
 
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hOMSaR
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 8:15 pm

BravoOne wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
BravoOne wrote:


No it's called fiction.


You do know that this thread is about UA and DL right?



Yes I know but for the sake of putting this debate rest, I'll just ignore your comments. Give it a rest.


You can ignore someone’s comments, but you can’t ignore the fact (which should have been blatantly obvious) that the discussion on 747s being SFO-based was in reference to UA.
The plural of Airbus is Airbuses. Airbii is not a word.
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A321neoLR is also unnecessary. It's simply A321LR.
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SierraPacific
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 8:34 pm

BravoOne wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
E90SLAM wrote:
Will any DL/US 747 pilots venture to foreign countries who still flies 747s? (e.g. CX)


Why would they? Seniority (under seniority line bidding) is THE TOOL to ensure you're flying the aircraft you want and the trips you want. Do you think a bunch of people are going to give up seniority rights at DL/UA just to avoid being retrained on a 77W or A350? Life can be very, very good as a 62-year old widebody pilot at the top of the seniority list at DL/UA.



Not to metion that very very, few airlines hire rirect entry Captains on their fleets, Seniority is simply not transferable between operators, much less 747 operators. Most certainly CX, would not participate in a scheme like this.


Americans rarely go to airlines like CX even in the worst of economic times and most of the 747 pilots live in base and simply switched over to the A350 in DTW so it isn't that big of a deal. Delta is the most high paying pilot job in the world or close to it so very few people ever leave the company on their own volition.

CX isn't too fond of American pilots either but that is a whole other can of worms
 
johns624
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 8:42 pm

hOMSaR wrote:

You can ignore someone’s comments, but you can’t ignore the fact (which should have been blatantly obvious) that the discussion on 747s being SFO-based was in reference to UA.
Kinda obvious, wasn't it? Especially for someone who's been here for 6 years and thousands of posts. This is an airline fan website, after all...
 
catiii
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 10:32 pm

BravoOne wrote:
CriticalPoint wrote:
BravoOne wrote:


No it's called fiction.


You do know that this thread is about UA and DL right?



Yes I know but for the sake of putting this debate rest, I'll just ignore your comments. Give it a rest.


You knew but the asked where the board was “coming up with this stuff” regarding the 744s being based in SFO? Huh?
 
BravoOne
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 11:14 pm

His original post was less than clear as I didn't realize UAL was still around:)
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Thu May 30, 2019 11:28 pm

BravoOne wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
They bid for positions based on their seniority then they are retrained for the new fleet they will be flying. Given that most 744s were SFO-based at the end and the 77W is primarily SFO-based, my guess is a lot of them are flying same/similar routes but now with the 77W vs the 744



Where do you come up with this stuff? The 747-400's were in DTW, ATL (?) at the end of their run. They never have been based in SFO, or LAX for that matter.


This thread is about Delta and United. United most certainly had the 744 based at SFO.
 
BravoOne
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Fri May 31, 2019 2:08 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
gwrudolph wrote:
They bid for positions based on their seniority then they are retrained for the new fleet they will be flying. Given that most 744s were SFO-based at the end and the 77W is primarily SFO-based, my guess is a lot of them are flying same/similar routes but now with the 77W vs the 744



Where do you come up with this stuff? The 747-400's were in DTW, ATL (?) at the end of their run. They never have been based in SFO, or LAX for that matter.


This thread is about Delta and United. United most certainly had the 744 based at SFO.


You are correct.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Fri May 31, 2019 2:36 pm

BravoOne wrote:
His original post was less than clear as I didn't realize UAL was still around:)

Why wouldn't United still be around.
Captain Kevin
 
BravoOne
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Fri May 31, 2019 2:58 pm

AirKevin wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
His original post was less than clear as I didn't realize UAL was still around:)

Why wouldn't United still be around.



Kevin, I was just pulling your leg, of course UAL is still around and thriving. A very good airline IMO.
 
dxBrian
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Fri May 31, 2019 6:51 pm

compensateme wrote:
Lots of DL 744 pilots went to the 359. If you read the APC forums, there's lots of sour grapes about it - allegedly many (most?) are hitting retirement age shortly after transition, including some aging out while still in training.

Sorry, but at least part of this didn't happen. There is no point of sending a pilot through training if he will age out within 6 months of completion. That would be a complete waste of a training slot. It would be cheaper to pay him to not fly until retirement age.
 
jagraham
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Fri May 31, 2019 7:17 pm

spinkid wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Lots of DL 744 pilots went to the 359. If you read the APC forums, there's lots of sour grapes about it - allegedly many (most?) are hitting retirement age shortly after transition, including some aging out while still in training.


Who's upset about it? Senior pilots are exercising their seniority rights. The company is processing bidding and training per contract.


DL could have tried to work out some early buyout incentive, but then they would probably have to offer that to people with similar seniority on other AC.

This happens quite often in a variety of unionized industries where your retirement is based on your years and./or combination of age. Many places you can retire at 15 years, 20, 25, etc, and as you hit the higher mark you get a higher pension monthly.

If I had 19 years, 8 months service in. I'd certainly train for 4 month and hit the 20 year mark.


The 744s came from NW. They were fenced for five years after the two pilot groups argued about seniority for two years. NW handled bankruptcy by laying off pilots, so the 744 captains were the most senior in the merged company. Whereas DL brought out senior captains. So NW 744 captains did not have much, if any, time beyond the 744 retirement. FOs are another story. I presume they are most of the ones transitioning to the 359. Although there was a gap between when the last 744 left and the first 359 came so those pilots had to do something else in the interim.
 
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SEAxSANxBOS
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Fri May 31, 2019 7:32 pm

RetiredWeasel wrote:
kaitak wrote:
There wouldn't be any at DL, because their -100s were retired about 40 years ago. There are probably a fair number at UAL, because their last classics were only retired after 9/11. No conversion from the -100 to -200 is necessary (probably only a very short "differences" course for the SP, which they also flew, having inherited it from PA), but from the Classics to the -400 would probably be a fairly lengthy course, being far more automated.


Northwest retired their last 747-152 (N601US) in 2000. That was 19 years ago, so their could be and probably are some pilots still with Delta that flew it as an FO or SO.


There were. I was talking to one not too long ago and flew all 3. Currently they are flying the 763ERs.

Most pilots went for the 359, and when talking to many of them during the retirement process. They didn't want to go to the 777 because of the "rivalry" during the merger.
Does not reflect the views of Delta Air Lines

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RetiredWeasel
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Sat Jun 01, 2019 5:40 pm

SEAxSANxBOS wrote:
RetiredWeasel wrote:
kaitak wrote:
There wouldn't be any at DL, because their -100s were retired about 40 years ago. There are probably a fair number at UAL, because their last classics were only retired after 9/11. No conversion from the -100 to -200 is necessary (probably only a very short "differences" course for the SP, which they also flew, having inherited it from PA), but from the Classics to the -400 would probably be a fairly lengthy course, being far more automated.


Northwest retired their last 747-152 (N601US) in 2000. That was 19 years ago, so their could be and probably are some pilots still with Delta that flew it as an FO or SO.


There were. I was talking to one not too long ago and flew all 3. Currently they are flying the 763ERs.

Most pilots went for the 359, and when talking to many of them during the retirement process. They didn't want to go to the 777 because of the "rivalry" during the merger.


I was referencing only the 747-100s that NW had. They didn't retire their last 747-200 until just before the merger (a freighter I think) in 2007. The crews bumped into whatever they could hold in the NW fleet. Most captains, if they could, went to the 747-400 or A-330. Others went elsewhere. Many are still flying with Delta and are probably flying their widebodies in the system.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Sat Jun 01, 2019 11:37 pm

SierraPacific wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

Why would they? Seniority (under seniority line bidding) is THE TOOL to ensure you're flying the aircraft you want and the trips you want. Do you think a bunch of people are going to give up seniority rights at DL/UA just to avoid being retrained on a 77W or A350? Life can be very, very good as a 62-year old widebody pilot at the top of the seniority list at DL/UA.



Not to metion that very very, few airlines hire rirect entry Captains on their fleets, Seniority is simply not transferable between operators, much less 747 operators. Most certainly CX, would not participate in a scheme like this.


Americans rarely go to airlines like CX even in the worst of economic times and most of the 747 pilots live in base and simply switched over to the A350 in DTW so it isn't that big of a deal. Delta is the most high paying pilot job in the world or close to it so very few people ever leave the company on their own volition.

CX isn't too fond of American pilots either but that is a whole other can of worms

I've actually known a couple of guys that have gone overseas to other operators when they age out of the US system. It was more common when the age was 60. I also know one guy that flew for
CX before coming to DL. He did have a Brit passport so not technically American. He couldn't get US based on CX and was ready to come back to the states and got hired at DL. Kind of funny he went from 777 FO to 737-200 FO with that move. Many years later he's back in the 777 right seat.
 
BravoOne
Posts: 3579
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Re: What happened to the Delta and United 747 pilots?

Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:35 pm

There are hundreds, if not more stories about pilots moving around in their careers. I don't think DL will hire you without US citizenship? A lot of Asian carriers would not hire expats if they were over 55. Perhaps now that the supply pool has shrunk a little, things like that have loosened. I know several pilots who worked for ET under a one year contract. Regardless "street Captains" are a fairly uncommon opportunity these days, with KL being a notable exception.

I also know several former CX pilots. For the most part they didn't see it a place they wanted to be for their entire careers for various reasons. It's a popular place for Aussies, and New Zealand pilots, but not so much Americans and Canadians. To each his own..

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