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gatibosgru
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 12:28 am

Revelation wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
Revelation wrote:
My first impression was that it is a vivid illustration of the 'middle of the market' gap that NMA would address.

Something we keep hearing about while the A321NEO keep gaining orders in the 180-240 market.

True, and the Very Large Aircraft at the back end of the lineup photo left a $25B smoking hole in Airbus's finances because they launched it based on a bunch of fair weather sailing assumptions...

One or two more "successes" like that and they'll be out of business...

It pays to stay in the listening phase till you're sure you can make money building the darn things, IMO...


I think between the success of the CEOs and now the A320NEO, they have plenty to build off of, including the failures from the A380 and A340 programs. Hopefully the A330NEO redeems itself.
@DadCelo
 
9Patch
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 1:10 am

Revelation wrote:
One or two more "successes" like that and they'll be out of business...

Good thing they have the A320:

Antoine Gelain, managing director of Paragon European Partners in London, estimated in a recent column for Aviation Week that the A320 single-aisle family accounts for half of the company’s revenues and at least two-thirds of its profits (AW&ST March 11-24, p. 10). “Beyond that, the A350 production forecasts keep being revised downward, the A330 is at a standstill, the A380 has just been canceled, and the A400M military transport is a financial chasm,” Gelain says.
 
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Erebus
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 1:34 am

gatibosgru wrote:
Just read on AA's twitter that with 423 buses, they're the world's largest Airbus operator! Had no clue.
https://twitter.com/AmericanAir/status/ ... 8931593216


Impressive indeed. They went from no Airbus to largest Airbus fleet in 6 years.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 2:04 am

BobMUC wrote:
Not the perfect thread but still impressive picture of the formation flight:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_cont ... 38eaM8_MW0

Airbus was obviously trying earlier to give the A338 maximum exposure after this video, perhaps to get better noticed by airlines..... :biggrin: .....

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... st-458511/


:wink2: Just one takeoff...several landings appended to the end..... :lol:
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 2:43 am

Erebus wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
Just read on AA's twitter that with 423 buses, they're the world's largest Airbus operator! Had no clue.
https://twitter.com/AmericanAir/status/ ... 8931593216


Impressive indeed. They went from no Airbus to largest Airbus fleet in 6 years.

To be fair, AA "inherited" quite a fleet when they merged with US (287 per my count).
 
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Revelation
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 11:16 am

gatibosgru wrote:
Just read on AA's twitter that with 423 buses, they're the world's largest Airbus operator! Had no clue.
https://twitter.com/AmericanAir/status/ ... 8931593216

Just read on a.net's front page that AA stock hits a 3-year low, interesting coincidence!
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
Vladex
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 11:40 am

Revelation wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
Just read on AA's twitter that with 423 buses, they're the world's largest Airbus operator! Had no clue.
https://twitter.com/AmericanAir/status/ ... 8931593216

Just read on a.net's front page that AA stock hits a 3-year low, interesting coincidence!


They don't have any A380, A350 and maybe 2 A321 neos and loads of 787's and MAX's
 
Gr8Circle
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 11:58 am

Olddog wrote:
The A220 looks like a toy put here just for the joke :)


...but will end up selling better than the big guy at the end of the line :lol:
 
RalXWB
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 12:04 pm

Congratulations to Airbus for 50 years of making certain Teammembers sweat...
 
Strato2
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 12:20 pm

Gr8Circle wrote:
Olddog wrote:
The A220 looks like a toy put here just for the joke :)


...but will end up selling better than the big guy at the end of the line :lol:


Normally always the smaller plane outsells the larger one with the exception of 747-8i that got trounced by the A380.
 
LH982
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 12:52 pm

Revelation wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
Just read on AA's twitter that with 423 buses, they're the world's largest Airbus operator! Had no clue.
https://twitter.com/AmericanAir/status/ ... 8931593216

Just read on a.net's front page that AA stock hits a 3-year low, interesting coincidence!


It's probably all those MAX8s they have sitting on the ground.
 
Absynth
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 2:13 pm

Revelation wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
Just read on AA's twitter that with 423 buses, they're the world's largest Airbus operator! Had no clue.
https://twitter.com/AmericanAir/status/ ... 8931593216

Just read on a.net's front page that AA stock hits a 3-year low, interesting coincidence!


The spite does not look well on you.
 
DFW17L
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 2:32 pm

Erebus wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
Just read on AA's twitter that with 423 buses, they're the world's largest Airbus operator! Had no clue.
https://twitter.com/AmericanAir/status/ ... 8931593216


Impressive indeed. They went from no Airbus to largest Airbus fleet in 6 years.


As an AA frequent flyer and former Lazy B’er, I’m liking the A319 and A321 a lot. Glad AA has them.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 3:21 pm

Absynth wrote:
Revelation wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
Just read on AA's twitter that with 423 buses, they're the world's largest Airbus operator! Had no clue.
https://twitter.com/AmericanAir/status/ ... 8931593216

Just read on a.net's front page that AA stock hits a 3-year low, interesting coincidence!

The spite does not look well on you.

.. yet boasting is fine.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 3:30 pm

FBW and the A320 are the greatest successes. The A380 and really the entire Airbus wide body strategy its greatest failure.
707 717 727 72S 737 733 737-700 747 757 753 767-300 764 A319 A320 DC-9-10 DC-9-30 DC-9-50, MD-82 MD-88 MD-90 DC-10-10 DC-10-40 F-100
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 3:33 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
FBW and the A320 are the greatest successes. The A380 and really the entire Airbus wide body strategy its greatest failure.


Yeah those A330s sure have been awful for Airbus.
@DadCelo
 
RalXWB
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 3:38 pm

I do not know how to respond to statements like "the entire Airbus widebody strategy is its greatest failure" while having a look at the sales figures of the A300, A340, A330 and A350. #lalaland
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 3:51 pm

Boeing has vastly outsold Airbus in the wide body arena. That is my only point. As the article states, Airbus stuck with quad jets for far too long while Boeing ate their lunch with the 777. The A340 and A380 were major mistakes as was the initial roll out of the A330.

The A350 has righted the ship but they still have a lot of catching up to do.
Last edited by ElroyJetson on Thu May 30, 2019 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
707 717 727 72S 737 733 737-700 747 757 753 767-300 764 A319 A320 DC-9-10 DC-9-30 DC-9-50, MD-82 MD-88 MD-90 DC-10-10 DC-10-40 F-100
 
hibtastic
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 3:54 pm

Airbus also make the most comfortable aircraft to fly on for passengers IMHO. That might not be defined as a success in the context of the article but it is in my book.
 
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BlueSky1976
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 4:07 pm

5 things Airbus did wrong:
1. A380
2. A340-500/-600
3. A318
4. Not putting GE90 under A330-300s wing
5. A350Mk1

5 things Airbus did right:
1. Fly By Wire
2. A320 Family sans A318
3. A330
4. Cross Crew Qualification system
5. A350XWB
Tarriffs are taxes. Taxation is theft. You are not entitled to anything.
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 4:17 pm

BlueSky1976 wrote:
5 things Airbus did wrong:
1. A380
2. A340-500/-600
3. A318
4. Not putting GE90 under A330-300s wing
5. A350Mk1

5 things Airbus did right:
1. Fly By Wire
2. A320 Family sans A318
3. A330
4. Cross Crew Qualification system
5. A350XWB


This is spot on imho. Although I would extend it to include the entire A340 family which only sold 377 copies while the 777 has sold 1593 to date. Total domination.

As for Boeing they ceded the middle of the market to Airbus and sat at least two decades too long on a 737 technology that was begun in the mid 1960's.

Hence why Airbus dominates the middle the market and Boeing the upper end.
707 717 727 72S 737 733 737-700 747 757 753 767-300 764 A319 A320 DC-9-10 DC-9-30 DC-9-50, MD-82 MD-88 MD-90 DC-10-10 DC-10-40 F-100
 
9Patch
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 4:23 pm

Gr8Circle wrote:
Olddog wrote:
The A220 looks like a toy put here just for the joke :)


...but will end up selling better than the big guy at the end of the line :lol:

A very low bar, indeed.
 
9Patch
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 4:27 pm

Strato2 wrote:
Normally always the smaller plane outsells the larger one with the exception of 747-8i that got trounced by the A380.

But the A380F got trounced by the 748F.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 6:30 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
BlueSky1976 wrote:
5 things Airbus did wrong:
1. A380
2. A340-500/-600
3. A318
4. Not putting GE90 under A330-300s wing
5. A350Mk1

5 things Airbus did right:
1. Fly By Wire
2. A320 Family sans A318
3. A330
4. Cross Crew Qualification system
5. A350XWB


This is spot on imho. Although I would extend it to include the entire A340 family which only sold 377 copies while the 777 has sold 1593 to date. Total domination.

As for Boeing they ceded the middle of the market to Airbus and sat at least two decades too long on a 737 technology that was begun in the mid 1960's.

Hence why Airbus dominates the middle the market and Boeing the upper end.

The A340 should be lumped in with the A330 (I believe the MSN's are intermingled between the 2 models): a lot of the systems/components are the same between the 2, the 2 aircraft were developed simultaneously as well.
It was 1 family with different models (shorter range to ULH).
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 7:40 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
BlueSky1976 wrote:
5 things Airbus did wrong:
1. A380
2. A340-500/-600
3. A318
4. Not putting GE90 under A330-300s wing
5. A350Mk1

5 things Airbus did right:
1. Fly By Wire
2. A320 Family sans A318
3. A330
4. Cross Crew Qualification system
5. A350XWB


This is spot on imho. Although I would extend it to include the entire A340 family which only sold 377 copies while the 777 has sold 1593 to date. Total domination.

As for Boeing they ceded the middle of the market to Airbus and sat at least two decades too long on a 737 technology that was begun in the mid 1960's.

Hence why Airbus dominates the middle the market and Boeing the upper end.

The A340 should be lumped in with the A330 (I believe the MSN's are intermingled between the 2 models): a lot of the systems/components are the same between the 2, the 2 aircraft were developed simultaneously as well.
It was 1 family with different models (shorter range to ULH).



I was doing a countdown in my head until someone made that argument. :)

As you might recall, both planes were marketed initially to completely different market segments and are clearly not the same aircraft although they share some of the same technology.

Boeing fans could make the same argument regarding the 757 and 767 as they also were developed at the same time and share many of the same components. But that would be ridiculous wouldn't it? (everyone nodding yes....).

The A330 grew into a fine aircraft that served as a nice upgrade replacement for the 767 and filled a void between the 767 and the big boys.such as the 777, A340, and 747. But it is not an A340. Not even close.
707 717 727 72S 737 733 737-700 747 757 753 767-300 764 A319 A320 DC-9-10 DC-9-30 DC-9-50, MD-82 MD-88 MD-90 DC-10-10 DC-10-40 F-100
 
txjim
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 8:27 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Polot wrote:
....

The 777 than got ETOPS 180 at entry into service, without needing to show reliability in service.
....

I don't know if I'm reading you correctly but you appear to be stating that the 777 did not need any qualification for ETOPS180. As shown in the great program "21st Century Jet " (available on Youtube), the program made a large number of test flights to justify the rating. Also see https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/boeing-to-launch-global-etops-test-programme-172164/
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 8:59 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:

This is spot on imho. Although I would extend it to include the entire A340 family which only sold 377 copies while the 777 has sold 1593 to date. Total domination.

As for Boeing they ceded the middle of the market to Airbus and sat at least two decades too long on a 737 technology that was begun in the mid 1960's.

Hence why Airbus dominates the middle the market and Boeing the upper end.

The A340 should be lumped in with the A330 (I believe the MSN's are intermingled between the 2 models): a lot of the systems/components are the same between the 2, the 2 aircraft were developed simultaneously as well.
It was 1 family with different models (shorter range to ULH).



I was doing a countdown in my head until someone made that argument. :)

As you might recall, both planes were marketed initially to completely different market segments and are clearly not the same aircraft although they share some of the same technology.

Boeing fans could make the same argument regarding the 757 and 767 as they also were developed at the same time and share many of the same components. But that would be ridiculous wouldn't it? (everyone nodding yes....).

The A330 grew into a fine aircraft that served as a nice upgrade replacement for the 767 and filled a void between the 767 and the big boys.such as the 777, A340, and 747. But it is not an A340. Not even close.

757 and 767 are aircraft of different sizes; most of the frame itself is different. Irrelevant reference.

A330 (-200 & -300) and A340 (-200 & -300) share the same fuselage, same wing, and most same systems; that's what, maybe 90% commonality. And you think they are that vastly different aircraft?
They were marketed to different missions; which actually make it even more remarkable that such a common airframe can have so vastly different missions.

Following your train of thought, the 777-200 and the 777-200LR are 2 different aircraft? They have different engines, different wingtip treatment and one was aimed at US domestic market while the other is an ULH variant.
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Thu May 30, 2019 11:33 pm

txjim wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Polot wrote:
....

The 777 than got ETOPS 180 at entry into service, without needing to show reliability in service.
....

I don't know if I'm reading you correctly but you appear to be stating that the 777 did not need any qualification for ETOPS180. As shown in the great program "21st Century Jet " (available on Youtube), the program made a large number of test flights to justify the rating. Also see https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/boeing-to-launch-global-etops-test-programme-172164/


BS, other frames had to collect, after finishing all required test flights for certification, a whole year experience in normal service before getting ETOPS 180. That is a whole lot of hours to collect, done by many frames in service. Show me that the 777 had to do more hours for certification than other frames..
 
majano
Topic Author
Posts: 115
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Fri May 31, 2019 6:06 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:

This is spot on imho. Although I would extend it to include the entire A340 family which only sold 377 copies while the 777 has sold 1593 to date. Total domination.

As for Boeing they ceded the middle of the market to Airbus and sat at least two decades too long on a 737 technology that was begun in the mid 1960's.

Hence why Airbus dominates the middle the market and Boeing the upper end.

The A340 should be lumped in with the A330 (I believe the MSN's are intermingled between the 2 models): a lot of the systems/components are the same between the 2, the 2 aircraft were developed simultaneously as well.
It was 1 family with different models (shorter range to ULH).



I was doing a countdown in my head until someone made that argument. :)

As you might recall, both planes were marketed initially to completely different market segments and are clearly not the same aircraft although they share some of the same technology.

Boeing fans could make the same argument regarding the 757 and 767 as they also were developed at the same time and share many of the same components. But that would be ridiculous wouldn't it? (everyone nodding yes....).

The A330 grew into a fine aircraft that served as a nice upgrade replacement for the 767 and filled a void between the 767 and the big boys.such as the 777, A340, and 747. But it is not an A340. Not even close.

IMHO, you discredited your contributions to this topic when you made this non-sensical comment: The A380 and really the entire Airbus wide body strategy its greatest failure. Unless you retract this, anything you say rings really hollow.
 
JayinKitsap
Posts: 1389
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Fri May 31, 2019 7:01 am

A huge success not mentioned - hiring John Leahy in 1985 and making him sales chief in 95. In 95 Airbus had 18% of the market, by 99 it was 50%.

A big failure not mentioned - the A-400M. Technically it is good but a disaster in getting production going right and sales outside of the 'group' have been slim. Probably more than $5B lost.

A tidbit as I looked this up.

1995 and then Boeing Commercial Airplanes president Ron Woodard was determined to crush Airbus by cutting prices and offering early delivery slots: the 737 production rose from 21 a month to 27, unprecedented at the time, but the supply chain couldn’t keep up and the line was shut down for 30 days to catch up, causing Boeing's first loss in 40 years as Woodard lost his job.
 
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TheFlyingDisk
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Fri May 31, 2019 7:33 am

Erebus wrote:
gatibosgru wrote:
Just read on AA's twitter that with 423 buses, they're the world's largest Airbus operator! Had no clue.
https://twitter.com/AmericanAir/status/ ... 8931593216


Impressive indeed. They went from no Airbus to largest Airbus fleet in 6 years.


I would think it's rather fitting, given that American Airlines's VP Frank Kolk gave the basic twinjet concept requirements that led Airbus to design the A300. They've come a long way from the Kolk Machine.
I FLY KLM+ALASKA+QATAR+MALAYSIA+AIRASIA+MALINDO
 
JQ321
Posts: 124
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Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Fri May 31, 2019 10:35 am

One Failure is that they fail to realise that they are only 49 not 50 for another year.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8361
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Fri May 31, 2019 12:47 pm

JQ321 wrote:
One Failure is that they fail to realise that they are only 49 not 50 for another year.


The A300 was formally announced in 1969.
 
Armadillo1
Posts: 387
Joined: Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:14 pm

Re: Airbus 50 Years Celebration - 5 things Airbus got right and 5 it did not

Fri May 31, 2019 1:17 pm

still question about 345/6. why they so heavy. i want to see it in numbers. everybody talking about fuselage but no one wth links.
and absolutely no info about wing and its comparison to 330 and 777 in frame weight.

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