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BA744PHX
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Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US New routes?

Tue May 28, 2019 7:54 pm

So bare with me all, I've been hospital for the past week and severe boredom has gotten the best of me, I decided to do some research on DL/AF/KL routes across the pond.

This had me wondering, what do you think are potential new routes for 2020?

Any city under 1 with airline code means they currently have service, 0 means they previous had service, blanks mean no service ever existed.

Based on this list (Data I used is for metro population), there is no Skyteam service on the top 5

AF/DL CDG-PHL/PHX/DEN/CLE/SAN
KL/DL AMS-PHL/PHX/DEN/CLE/SAN

DFW at least has AF, however KL cut service a few years ago

PHL/PHX/DEN/CLE/SAN have no service on any carrier,

What are your thoughts?

Sorry I know the list isnt showing properly, however I can figure out to post a pic

CDG AMS
# City AF DL KL DL
1 New York 1 1 1 1
2 Los Angeles 1 1 1 1
3 Chicago 1 1
4 Washington 1 1
5 San Francisco 1 1
6 Boston 1 1 1 1
7 Dallas 1 0
8 Philadelphia 0
9 Houston 1 1
10 Miami 1 1
11 Atlanta 1 1 1
12 Detroit 1 1 0 1
13 Seattle 1 1 0 1
14 Phoenix
15 Minneapolis 1 1 1 1
16 Denver
17 Cleveland
18 San Diego
19 Orlando 0 1
20 Portland 1
UA Gold 2019, DL Silver 2019
Upcoming flights
UA EWR-EZE-EWR, EWR-YYZ-EWR, EWR-PHX-EWR, EWR-NRT-EWR
NH NRT-BKK-NRT
TG BKK-HKT-BKK
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Tue May 28, 2019 8:28 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
PHL/PHX/DEN/CLE/SAN have no service on any carrier,


I think those are neither DL hubs nor focus cities. PHL is amply served by AA. DEN is adequately served by UA/LH/BA. PHX and SAN are weaklings when it comes to TATL. CLE is CLE. I'd call any realistic chance of TATL service by any SkyTeam carrier to those cities as fairly remote.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Tue May 28, 2019 8:37 pm

Didn’t AF temporarily operate some scheduled flights to SAN on a 77W?
 
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BA744PHX
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Tue May 28, 2019 9:21 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
PHL/PHX/DEN/CLE/SAN have no service on any carrier,


I think those are neither DL hubs nor focus cities. PHL is amply served by AA. DEN is adequately served by UA/LH/BA. PHX and SAN are weaklings when it comes to TATL. CLE is CLE. I'd call any realistic chance of TATL service by any SkyTeam carrier to those cities as fairly remote.


So basically no more expansion between the EU-US under CDG/AMS-AF/KL/DL?????
UA Gold 2019, DL Silver 2019
Upcoming flights
UA EWR-EZE-EWR, EWR-YYZ-EWR, EWR-PHX-EWR, EWR-NRT-EWR
NH NRT-BKK-NRT
TG BKK-HKT-BKK
 
TWA902fly
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Tue May 28, 2019 9:50 pm

Your list is missing Salt Lake City, which currently has year-round DL service to AMS and CDG as well as KL seasonal to AMS and DL seasonal to LHR.

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
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BA744PHX
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Tue May 28, 2019 10:47 pm

TWA902fly wrote:
Your list is missing Salt Lake City, which currently has year-round DL service to AMS and CDG as well as KL seasonal to AMS and DL seasonal to LHR.

'902

Hi TWA902fly, my list was based on metro populations, top 20, SLC didnt make the list
UA Gold 2019, DL Silver 2019
Upcoming flights
UA EWR-EZE-EWR, EWR-YYZ-EWR, EWR-PHX-EWR, EWR-NRT-EWR
NH NRT-BKK-NRT
TG BKK-HKT-BKK
 
usairways85
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Tue May 28, 2019 11:02 pm

Pretty sure ST has passed on the PHL TA market.
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Tue May 28, 2019 11:18 pm

DL isn’t going to add any of those cities. And if KL and AF want to that’s up to them.
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
klm617
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Tue May 28, 2019 11:33 pm

DTW-AMS on KLM is long overdue.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Wed May 29, 2019 12:04 am

klm617 wrote:
DTW-AMS on KLM is long overdue.

And why is that? There are already 4 flights on that route. One of them an A350. Obviously SkyTeam feels that’s plenty. Would you be willing to give up say... the A350 just to get a KL tail in Detroit? :lol:
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
EddieDude
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Wed May 29, 2019 12:21 am

lavalampluva wrote:
DL isn’t going to add any of those cities. And if KL and AF want to that’s up to them.

Well, considering they have a joint business agreement for trans-Atlantic, the launch of new Europe-North America routes is a matter in which all carriers party to the JBA need to be involved and probably approve. Therefore, it is not just up to KL or AF; it should be a joint decision.
Upcoming flights:
May: AM MEX-CUN 73H (Y), AM CUN-MEX 73W (Y).
August: KL MEX-AMS 74M (J), KQ AMS-NBO 788 (J).
 
EMB170
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Wed May 29, 2019 12:21 am

usairways85 wrote:
Pretty sure ST has passed on the PHL TA market.


Shame. I'm in NJ and won't set foot on AA metal in PHL or UA metal in EWR due to their comparatively inferior products and service.
IND ORD ATL MCO PIT EWR BUF CVG DEN RNO JFK DTW BOS BDL BWI IAD RDU CLT MYR CHS TPA CID MSP STL MSY DFW IAH AUS SLC LAS
 
Fargo
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Wed May 29, 2019 12:28 am

Three possibilities I see in the next 5 years (two of them not on your list due to having smaller MSA sizes.

1. DEN: I have to think either AF or KL (most likely the latter) will enter DEN at some point, considering DEN wants a year round Paris and/or Amsterdam flight

2. AUS: DL is rumored to be adding either CDG or AMS here soon, possibly this year

3. BNA: DL is rumored to be adding either CDG or AMS within the next few years

We should also add VS to the list. I wouldn't be surprised if they added some new US destinations within the next decade.
 
klm617
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Wed May 29, 2019 12:49 am

lavalampluva wrote:
klm617 wrote:
DTW-AMS on KLM is long overdue.

And why is that? There are already 4 flights on that route. One of them an A350. Obviously SkyTeam feels that’s plenty. Would you be willing to give up say... the A350 just to get a KL tail in Detroit? :lol:


Absolutely I would give up the A350 to get a KLM flight here. I would give up one daily A333 to get a 5 weekly KLM flight. Detroit needs the diversity that the other Delta hubs have.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
BenflysDTW
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Wed May 29, 2019 12:51 am

We have defiantly been riding the high tide for the past 2-3 years. I expect a slow down. What I do see is an upgauges on routes that currently exist. DL will likely add more point to point routes, as KLM/AF don’t serve these markets except for major markets like ORD and MIA.
Here’s my list:
RDU-AMS DL
AUS-AMS/CDG DL
MCO-CDG DL

KL
AMS-SEA

AF
None
 
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BA744PHX
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Wed May 29, 2019 1:03 am

Fargo wrote:
Three possibilities I see in the next 5 years (two of them not on your list due to having smaller MSA sizes.

1. DEN: I have to think either AF or KL (most likely the latter) will enter DEN at some point, considering DEN wants a year round Paris and/or Amsterdam flight

2. AUS: DL is rumored to be adding either CDG or AMS here soon, possibly this year

3. BNA: DL is rumored to be adding either CDG or AMS within the next few years

We should also add VS to the list. I wouldn't be surprised if they added some new US destinations within the next decade.


DEN on AF would make sense, however wasn't it reported Norwegian was struggling on the CDG-DEN?
AUS I think the market needs to mature more before any additional intercontinental, currently BA-LHR LH-FRA, DY-LGW, I am curious how much market exist with such a small catchment area.
BNA, lets see how BA goes first before anything further is added
UA Gold 2019, DL Silver 2019
Upcoming flights
UA EWR-EZE-EWR, EWR-YYZ-EWR, EWR-PHX-EWR, EWR-NRT-EWR
NH NRT-BKK-NRT
TG BKK-HKT-BKK
 
grbauc
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Wed May 29, 2019 1:04 am

EMB170 wrote:
usairways85 wrote:
Pretty sure ST has passed on the PHL TA market.


Shame. I'm in NJ and won't set foot on AA metal in PHL or UA metal in EWR due to their comparatively inferior products and service.


Too who for TA service are you judging against? Im wondering because you in have your opinion and its 100% correct has its yours.

Now I fly a lot of J class and lots of airlines. I prefer OW but go for good J prices so I get a fair share of products. AA and UA are on many of there Planes very competitive it not better then some. US airlines have come a long way. Especially TA flights to Europe.

I'd like to know what your thinking is? not to argue but to understand. Thx
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US New routes?

Wed May 29, 2019 1:13 am

Pretty sure skyteam has things covered in 2019. Have you seen their NA operations out of both AMS and CDG. Nothing short of amazing. No major holes there. They have things well covered. Don't expect to see some major expansion coming. If you see anything which is not likely it will be a leisure/vacation city.

BA and London has alot more possibilities of unfilled cities just because the o&d is so much higher than CDG or AMS to most cities in NA. A CLE or something could possibly work for them on a 757 but CDG or AMS no way.

I do not expect to see skyteam do much of anything , simply because their offering is so good as is. They want to push people thru NA hubs and keep those planes big and full.
 
Fargo
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Wed May 29, 2019 1:16 am

BA744PHX wrote:
Fargo wrote:
Three possibilities I see in the next 5 years (two of them not on your list due to having smaller MSA sizes.

1. DEN: I have to think either AF or KL (most likely the latter) will enter DEN at some point, considering DEN wants a year round Paris and/or Amsterdam flight

2. AUS: DL is rumored to be adding either CDG or AMS here soon, possibly this year

3. BNA: DL is rumored to be adding either CDG or AMS within the next few years

We should also add VS to the list. I wouldn't be surprised if they added some new US destinations within the next decade.


DEN on AF would make sense, however wasn't it reported Norwegian was struggling on the CDG-DEN?
AUS I think the market needs to mature more before any additional intercontinental, currently BA-LHR LH-FRA, DY-LGW, I am curious how much market exist with such a small catchment area.
BNA, lets see how BA goes first before anything further is added


1. DY is doing ok on DEN-CDG, but it is only 3x weekly summer seasonal and geared towards leisure travelers. I think KL would make more sense here, if YYC can make KL work, I don't see why DEN can't.

2. AUS, in addition to being in the fastest growing MSA in the nation, actually has a pretty big catchment area, as most of San Antonio (especially the northern, wealthier parts) is within AUS's 90 minute catchment area. Like the above DEN flight, AUS-LGW on DY is only 3x weekly summer seasonal and its geared towards leisure travelers. DL just opened a big new Sky Club and the airport director hinted back in April AUS was going to land a DL TATL flight in the near future.

3. BNA is still a few years away likely, but they are expanding the Sky Club and have reported interest. BA is doing really well for the most part, though they still have some work to do to improve LF's in the extremely slow winter months. I expect this is at least 2 years away, but it will happen eventually.
 
DeltaRules
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US New routes?

Wed May 29, 2019 1:49 am

It was just discussed in another thread, so I'll throw it out here: CMH and DL have been talking for a few years about TATL (both sides have confirmed it). CMH-AMS was rumored (there was even a false alarm rumor of an announcement in 2017) and would be within 757 range.
A310/319/320/321/333, ARJ, BN2, B717/722/73S/733/734/735/73G/738/739/744/757/753/767/763/764/777, CR1/2/7/9, DH6, 328, EM2/ERJ/E70/E75/E90, F28/100, J31, L10/12/15, DC9/D93/D94/D95/M80/M88/M90/D10, SF3, SST
 
AF773
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US New routes?

Wed May 29, 2019 2:10 am

Good evening from sunny San Diego!

All fingers and toes crossed here for a DL/AF/KL SAN-CDG/AMS link (3x weekly 332??) :)

Reading all the posts above, it does indeed sound like DL AUS-CDG is the most serious contender.

What do you all think of MSY-CDG? I somewhat put it in the same leisure category as KL's new AMS-LAS. Could this work 3xweekly in the summer?

AF773
Next flights: SAN-SEA-ANC-MSP-CDG-TLN-ORY; CDG-AMS-DTW-DCA-MSP-SAN; SAN-SLC-SFO-LAX-SAN; SNA-SEA-HNL-SLC-SNA; SAN-LAX-CDG-SLC-SNA
 
Vegaschezhed
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US New routes?

Wed May 29, 2019 2:45 am

KLM launching AMS - LAS on June 6th.

https://news.klm.com/klm-bets-on-las-vegas/
 
EMB170
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Wed May 29, 2019 3:01 am

grbauc wrote:
EMB170 wrote:
usairways85 wrote:
Pretty sure ST has passed on the PHL TA market.


Shame. I'm in NJ and won't set foot on AA metal in PHL or UA metal in EWR due to their comparatively inferior products and service.


Too who for TA service are you judging against? Im wondering because you in have your opinion and its 100% correct has its yours.

Now I fly a lot of J class and lots of airlines. I prefer OW but go for good J prices so I get a fair share of products. AA and UA are on many of there Planes very competitive it not better then some. US airlines have come a long way. Especially TA flights to Europe.

I'd like to know what your thinking is? not to argue but to understand. Thx


I'm not quite wealthy enough for J. I'll happily pay for W when available, but flying domestically, I won't fly AA or UA. And I have friends who fly for both carriers! At the risk of sounding like a fanboy (which I do not profess to be), DL's product domestically is light years ahead of UA and AA in consistency, comfort, and customer service, and internationally, they're pretty close to the EU carriers.

Call me crazy, but I have to think that one of the largest metro areas in the US should somehow be able to support at least *one* SkyTeam TATL flight...there have to be more people out there like me who aren't happy with American/USAirways... LH makes it work, why can't DL?
IND ORD ATL MCO PIT EWR BUF CVG DEN RNO JFK DTW BOS BDL BWI IAD RDU CLT MYR CHS TPA CID MSP STL MSY DFW IAH AUS SLC LAS
 
XRadar98
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Wed May 29, 2019 3:23 am

Fargo wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
Fargo wrote:
Three possibilities I see in the next 5 years (two of them not on your list due to having smaller MSA sizes.

1. DEN: I have to think either AF or KL (most likely the latter) will enter DEN at some point, considering DEN wants a year round Paris and/or Amsterdam flight

2. AUS: DL is rumored to be adding either CDG or AMS here soon, possibly this year

3. BNA: DL is rumored to be adding either CDG or AMS within the next few years

We should also add VS to the list. I wouldn't be surprised if they added some new US destinations within the next decade.


DEN on AF would make sense, however wasn't it reported Norwegian was struggling on the CDG-DEN?
AUS I think the market needs to mature more before any additional intercontinental, currently BA-LHR LH-FRA, DY-LGW, I am curious how much market exist with such a small catchment area.
BNA, lets see how BA goes first before anything further is added


1. DY is doing ok on DEN-CDG, but it is only 3x weekly summer seasonal and geared towards leisure travelers. I think KL would make more sense here, if YYC can make KL work, I don't see why DEN can't.

2. AUS, in addition to being in the fastest growing MSA in the nation, actually has a pretty big catchment area, as most of San Antonio (especially the northern, wealthier parts) is within AUS's 90 minute catchment area. Like the above DEN flight, AUS-LGW on DY is only 3x weekly summer seasonal and its geared towards leisure travelers. DL just opened a big new Sky Club and the airport director hinted back in April AUS was going to land a DL TATL flight in the near future.

3. BNA is still a few years away likely, but they are expanding the Sky Club and have reported interest. BA is doing really well for the most part, though they still have some work to do to improve LF's in the extremely slow winter months. I expect this is at least 2 years away, but it will happen eventually.


In addition, SAT has an airport not adequate, so AUS is going to have more from there, not just the wealthier parts.
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Wed May 29, 2019 3:35 am

Ishrion wrote:
Didn’t AF temporarily operate some scheduled flights to SAN on a 77W?

No
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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chepos
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US New routes?

Wed May 29, 2019 3:53 am

EMB170 wrote:
grbauc wrote:
EMB170 wrote:

Shame. I'm in NJ and won't set foot on AA metal in PHL or UA metal in EWR due to their comparatively inferior products and service.


Too who for TA service are you judging against? Im wondering because you in have your opinion and its 100% correct has its yours.

Now I fly a lot of J class and lots of airlines. I prefer OW but go for good J prices so I get a fair share of products. AA and UA are on many of there Planes very competitive it not better then some. US airlines have come a long way. Especially TA flights to Europe.

I'd like to know what your thinking is? not to argue but to understand. Thx


I'm not quite wealthy enough for J. I'll happily pay for W when available, but flying domestically, I won't fly AA or UA. And I have friends who fly for both carriers! At the risk of sounding like a fanboy (which I do not profess to be), DL's product domestically is light years ahead of UA and AA in consistency, comfort, and customer service, and internationally, they're pretty close to the EU carriers.

Call me crazy, but I have to think that one of the largest metro areas in the US should somehow be able to support at least *one* SkyTeam TATL flight...there have to be more people out there like me who aren't happy with American/USAirways... LH makes it work, why can't DL?


They tried CDG (AF and DL) and LHR, both have been dropped. CDG/LHR are bigger markets than AMS ex PHL, not sure why they should try TA out of PHL again. PHL - Europe punches way above it’s weight thanks to the hub, they should be happy to have all the service they have now. If you want to fly ST to Europe, you can always make the trek to Kennedy.


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einkleinerknabe
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Wed May 29, 2019 4:06 am

Ishrion wrote:
Didn’t AF temporarily operate some scheduled flights to SAN on a 77W?


They announced two such flights. Not sure if they followed through:
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/airlineroute/277307/air-france-adds-limited-time-san-diego-service-in-4q18/

Air France in the 4th quarter of 2018 plans to operate limited-time only Paris CDG – San Diego route, scheduled with 4-class 777-300ER aircraft. The Skyteam member currently plans to operate this route on 29NOV18 and 04DEC18.

AF302 CDG1310 – 1555SAN 77W
AF303 SAN1805 – 1400+1CDG 77W
 
Ishrion
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Wed May 29, 2019 4:21 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
Didn’t AF temporarily operate some scheduled flights to SAN on a 77W?

No


Looks like they did

https://youtu.be/rpPmhWv5f4g

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-in-4q18/
 
PHLspecial
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Wed May 29, 2019 5:36 am

usairways85 wrote:
Pretty sure ST has passed on the PHL TA market.

That's sad to hear. I'm guessing the premium for PHL it's not high enough for ST or AA undercutting like crazy I'm dying for a KLM flight without a major hassle in getting to JFK. Are you saying the ST is done for the foreseeable future in PHL? In the past hey they been off and on correct?
 
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LindyFlight
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Wed May 29, 2019 6:05 am

Ishrion wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
Didn’t AF temporarily operate some scheduled flights to SAN on a 77W?

No


Looks like they did

https://youtu.be/rpPmhWv5f4g

https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... e-in-4q18/

Yup, the two flights were charter flights for the 2018 American Society of Hematology Annual Meeting & Exposition in San Diego. One flight operated on 11/4/18 to ferry in attendees before the meeting and Air France actually sold the outbound back to CDG as a revenue flight. And after the meeting, another flight arrived from CDG (also revenue) on 12/4/18 and it departed back with the attendees. Was kinda odd that they decided to sell a couple of the flights as revenue, perhaps they were collecting data for the off-peak travel season?
 
acentauri
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US New routes?

Wed May 29, 2019 8:07 am

chepos wrote:
EMB170 wrote:
grbauc wrote:
..........
Call me crazy, but I have to think that one of the largest metro areas in the US should somehow be able to support at least *one* SkyTeam TATL flight...there have to be more people out there like me who aren't happy with American/USAirways... LH makes it work, why can't DL?


They tried CDG (AF and DL) and LHR, both have been dropped. CDG/LHR are bigger markets than AMS ex PHL, not sure why they should try TA out of PHL again. PHL - Europe punches way above it’s weight thanks to the hub, they should be happy to have all the service they have now. If you want to fly ST to Europe, you can always make the trek to Kennedy.

AF "dropped" PHL-CDG over 10 years ago, because it did not have a smaller aircraft for a route with essentially zero connecting traffic/ST presence and a new competing 10 x Weekly US Airways flight. DL picked it up with a 757 - which was never competitive. The route struggled for many years until DL decided to lower the flag. Maybe DL should try CLT-CDG, which we know punches way, way, way above its weight. :biggrin:
 
axiom
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US New routes?

Wed May 29, 2019 9:31 am

Not sure where the OP got their metro list - TPA is larger than MCO and PDX...
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Wed May 29, 2019 10:16 am

Ishrion wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
Didn’t AF temporarily operate some scheduled flights to SAN on a 77W?

No

Looks like they did

Sure, if you count an inbound and outbound conference shuttle where they sold the excess seats as "some scheduled flights"....
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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BA744PHX
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US New routes?

Wed May 29, 2019 11:44 am

Would anyone know the PDEW from AMS/CDG - PHX/SAN/DEN/CLE, I am curious how much is being funneled thru other hubs
UA Gold 2019, DL Silver 2019
Upcoming flights
UA EWR-EZE-EWR, EWR-YYZ-EWR, EWR-PHX-EWR, EWR-NRT-EWR
NH NRT-BKK-NRT
TG BKK-HKT-BKK
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Wed May 29, 2019 11:51 am

klm617 wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
klm617 wrote:
DTW-AMS on KLM is long overdue.

And why is that? There are already 4 flights on that route. One of them an A350. Obviously SkyTeam feels that’s plenty. Would you be willing to give up say... the A350 just to get a KL tail in Detroit? :lol:


Absolutely I would give up the A350 to get a KLM flight here. I would give up one daily A333 to get a 5 weekly KLM flight. Detroit needs the diversity that the other Delta hubs have.

I know you would give up the DL flight to ICN just to get a KE tail at DTW as well. :wink:
Remind me to send a thank you note to Mr. Boeing.
 
acavpics
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Wed May 29, 2019 12:09 pm

lavalampluva wrote:
klm617 wrote:
DTW-AMS on KLM is long overdue.

And why is that? There are already 4 flights on that route. One of them an A350. Obviously SkyTeam feels that’s plenty. Would you be willing to give up say... the A350 just to get a KL tail in Detroit? :lol:


Is DL actually able to get decent load factors on their DTW- AMS flights? Which travelers (Business, leisure ...) make up most of the passengers on this route? I didn't think all that many people would travel between the 2 cities, given that Detroit is not really an international tourist destination and that the city filed bankruptcy not too many years ago.

I know many people would be connecting through both ends, but where else do they get the pax to profitably fill 4 daily flights?
 
ANA787
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US New routes?

Wed May 29, 2019 12:34 pm

DL/AF PDX-CDG
 
PSU.DTW.SCE
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Wed May 29, 2019 1:31 pm

acavpics wrote:
lavalampluva wrote:
klm617 wrote:
DTW-AMS on KLM is long overdue.

And why is that? There are already 4 flights on that route. One of them an A350. Obviously SkyTeam feels that’s plenty. Would you be willing to give up say... the A350 just to get a KL tail in Detroit? :lol:


Is DL actually able to get decent load factors on their DTW- AMS flights? Which travelers (Business, leisure ...) make up most of the passengers on this route? I didn't think all that many people would travel between the 2 cities, given that Detroit is not really an international tourist destination and that the city filed bankruptcy not too many years ago.

I know many people would be connecting through both ends, but where else do they get the pax to profitably fill 4 daily flights?

DTW-AMS has been flown and 4 flights/day for most of the year for about 2 decades. It actually has peaked as high as 5 dailies. In recent years they have added more CDG capacity as well.

Three reasons these flights to do so well:
1) Connections on both ends - DTW tons of connections over the Midwest / Great Lakes / Central US; AMS all over Europe and beyond
2) DTW has decent amount of demand for both business and leisure travel to Europe, but outside of the "top 5" big markets, its highly fragmented with not enough demand for nonstop, but lends itself to easy connections over AMS. DL / Skyteam has a stronghold over the DTW-originating frequent fliers, business travel, and premium demand to Europe.
3) Anyone can fill a flight to/from Europe from May-September
 
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spinotter
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Wed May 29, 2019 3:34 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
PHL/PHX/DEN/CLE/SAN have no service on any carrier,


I think those are neither DL hubs nor focus cities. PHL is amply served by AA. DEN is adequately served by UA/LH/BA. PHX and SAN are weaklings when it comes to TATL. CLE is CLE. I'd call any realistic chance of TATL service by any SkyTeam carrier to those cities as fairly remote.


So basically no more expansion between the EU-US under CDG/AMS-AF/KL/DL?????


Could be some new routes like AUS-AMS, AUS-CDG, RDU-AMS (if not currently served). Not other airline US hubs but DL focus cities.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US New routes?

Wed May 29, 2019 4:16 pm

ANA787 wrote:
DL/AF PDX-CDG


That was my thought also. PDX-CDG came to mind when I first saw this thread.

SJC may be a candidate too. I believe SJC-LHR does well and there is certainly a lot of leakage to SFO.
 
YYZORD
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US New routes?

Wed May 29, 2019 6:02 pm

I could see KL adding SEA, they make YVR work very well!
 
Nola
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US New routes?

Wed May 29, 2019 6:12 pm

AF773 wrote:
Good evening from sunny San Diego!

All fingers and toes crossed here for a DL/AF/KL SAN-CDG/AMS link (3x weekly 332??) :)

Reading all the posts above, it does indeed sound like DL AUS-CDG is the most serious contender.

What do you all think of MSY-CDG? I somewhat put it in the same leisure category as KL's new AMS-LAS. Could this work 3xweekly in the summer?

AF773


The New Orleans Aviation Board has been in ongoing talks with AF about a CDG nonstop. Given BA's success with MSY-LHR and AA's increase in seats to MSY, it would seem that some kind of SkyTeam response would be appropriate--DL used to be the largest network carrier to MSY but has fallen behind AA. That might change when the new North Terminal opens, supposedly this year....
 
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SANFan
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US New routes?

Wed May 29, 2019 6:53 pm

Regarding SAN service on AF/KL/DL to AMS/CDG, I would, by definition, love to see any of it happen, no question. And I think one of the routes will begin at some point.

However, I don't think anything new to Europe will happen for at least a couple of years and that's fine with me. SAN is just a bit over a year into LH's new service to FRA; the route operates 5x weekly and that service needs time to mature.

In fact, I believe SAN's Incentive program is not currently offering anything to Europe in order to help LH be successful with its service. (SAN did the same thing with BA and JL when their service began years ago.) IF one of the major flags decides to start service to SAN now, it will be without benefit of any airport-offered benefits and I don't see that happening..

In another couple of years, SAN's incentive program will be back on the table and I would bet (expect) a SkyTeam carrier will jump at either AMS or PAR. In the meantime, I am very happy to have the intercontinental service that we have right now -- BA, JL, LH and WK!

I'm often surprised to hear so many people here on A.net wanting more, MORE, MORE int'l service now, NOW, NOW! Especially the newer, smaller, 2nd tier cities that are now seeing their first intercontinental service need to give it a chance to grow before adding competition.. And I'm pretty sure the airlines understand that concept!

bb
 
Bigant0408
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Wed May 29, 2019 7:23 pm

PHLspecial wrote:
usairways85 wrote:
Pretty sure ST has passed on the PHL TA market.

That's sad to hear. I'm guessing the premium for PHL it's not high enough for ST or AA undercutting like crazy I'm dying for a KLM flight without a major hassle in getting to JFK. Are you saying the ST is done for the foreseeable future in PHL? In the past hey they been off and on correct?

I flew PHL/CDG/PHL back in 2013 for family trip on Delta non stop on a 757. Flight going to Paris was damn near empty as I had a row to myself to lay down and sleep. Coming back the flight was just about full. I don't think Delta was competitive nor was AA undercutting as I remember prices were on avg about the same plus the Delta flight was seasonal. I also do think ST is pretty much done with PHL for TA flights so i'm not holding my breath for any news from them.
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RDUDDJI
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Wed May 29, 2019 7:35 pm

Fargo wrote:
2. AUS, in addition to being in the fastest growing MSA in the nation, actually has a pretty big catchment area, as most of San Antonio (especially the northern, wealthier parts) is within AUS's 90 minute catchment area.


It's actually the third fastest growing MSA overall. However, it is the fastest growing large MSA (over 1mil), which is very impressive. SAT also in the top 10 fastest growing CSAs.

That being said, with the current economic outlook, I think airlines will be very cautious about adding anything at the moment
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BA744PHX
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Wed May 29, 2019 9:28 pm

Fargo wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
Fargo wrote:
Three possibilities I see in the next 5 years (two of them not on your list due to having smaller MSA sizes.

2. AUS, in addition to being in the fastest growing MSA in the nation, actually has a pretty big catchment area, as most of San Antonio (especially the northern, wealthier parts) is within AUS's 90 minute catchment area. Like the above DEN flight, AUS-LGW on DY is only 3x weekly summer seasonal and its geared towards leisure travelers. DL just opened a big new Sky Club and the airport director hinted back in April AUS was going to land a DL TATL flight in the near future.

I had to look this up, AUS is one of the largest going MSA's based on % not numerical value at metro population of 2.1 mill and SAT at 2.5 mil (4.6 mill total), oddly its still smaller than the PHX metro 4.9 mill and 5.9 when adding TUS
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onwFan
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US New routes?

Thu May 30, 2019 12:04 am

EWR still seems like the biggest hole in their transatlantic JV. DL pulled out of EWR-AMS and EWR-CDG in the recent past - however VS still flies once daily to LHR (if I am correct). However with recent increase in competition on these routes, they may not be worth re-attempting in the immediate future. With the shutdown of 9W and AF/KL trying to recapture India-US traffic, one-stop options to EWR could be important (but of course, not necessarily high-yielding).

As others mention - SAN, PHL, AUS and DEN are points where both SA and OW have direct flights to at least one point in Europe. However, I would guess that DL would rather have SLC to itself than compete for DEN traffic. SkyTeam also has PDX transatlantic/transpacific to its own - will be interesting to see if this changes in the event that AS becomes a OW connect member...
 
Fargo
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US

Thu May 30, 2019 12:22 am

BA744PHX wrote:
Fargo wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:

I had to look this up, AUS is one of the largest going MSA's based on % not numerical value at metro population of 2.1 mill and SAT at 2.5 mil (4.6 mill total), oddly its still smaller than the PHX metro 4.9 mill and 5.9 when adding TUS


TUS is a bit further away from PHX than SAT is from AUS, so it's not completely an apples to apples comparison. Also, AUS has more premium traffic than PHX, hence, its ability to land additional intercontinental service beyond LON.
 
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LindyFlight
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US New routes?

Thu May 30, 2019 4:51 pm

BA744PHX wrote:
Would anyone know the PDEW from AMS/CDG - PHX/SAN/DEN/CLE, I am curious how much is being funneled thru other hubs

CDG-SAN sees over 70 PDEW while AMS-SAN Sees around 35 PDEW. However, both will see numbers rise during the peak season.
 
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BA744PHX
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Re: Skyteam DL/AF/KL EU-US New routes?

Thu May 30, 2019 5:30 pm

LindyFlight wrote:
BA744PHX wrote:
Would anyone know the PDEW from AMS/CDG - PHX/SAN/DEN/CLE, I am curious how much is being funneled thru other hubs

CDG-SAN sees over 70 PDEW while AMS-SAN Sees around 35 PDEW. However, both will see numbers rise during the peak season.

WOW I didnt expect SAN to be so high, what is your source?
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