flyfresno
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Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Tue May 28, 2019 9:27 pm

Looking at total population, it's surprising that Ohio has only one transatlantic flight if you count CVG's Paris service, and (technically) has no regularly scheduled transatlantic passenger service itself (since CVG is in Kentucky). In fact, of the top 15 most populous states, Arizona is the only other state that is so lacking in transoceanic air service (although PHX has two flights on most days to London). The six states directly below Ohio in population - Georgia, North Carolina, Michigan, New Jersey, Virginia, and Washington - all have a fairly large amount of transoceanic service (with North Carolina being the lowest of that group with no transpacific service and about half of its transatlantic service being seasonal).

Obviously, Ohio's population is much more spread out than those states (Georgia, Michigan, Virginia, New Jersey, and Washington all have transoceanic service focusing on one major metro area, all of which are much larger than any of Ohio's metro areas), and Detroit indirectly serves a small part of Ohio already, but there are definitely a lot of companies headquartered in Ohio and quite a bit of money in the state that I would think would justify at least a couple more transatlantic flights. Still, with CLE's Icelandair service being dropped, it seems that airlines just can't make money flying across the pond from Ohio.

The question is, is the lack of one large metro area (the state basically shares three medium sized metro areas, all around 2.1 million people) the main reason that Ohio can't seem to sustain any more than CVG's flight to Paris, or are there other factors that you all think contribute to the lack of service?
 
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Pudelhund
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Tue May 28, 2019 9:54 pm

flyfresno wrote:
The question is, is the lack of one large metro area (the state basically shares three medium sized metro areas, all around 2.1 million people) the main reason that Ohio can't seem to sustain any more than CVG's flight to Paris, or are there other factors that you all think contribute to the lack of service?


I am a Delta frequent flyer based in Columbus, OH, and the simple answer to your question is yes.

However, Columbus is an extremely quickly growing economy and city in general and I would not be surprised if by 2023 the city has a regular transatlantic flight. The tech, logistics, and fashion industries keep growing very quickly here. That's why we picked up SFO and SEA in addition to many other nonstops in the last few years. Once CMH passes 8 million annual passengers or so, I would expect a transatlantic flight.

Cincinnati is also growing very quickly and Delta has hinted at walking back its cuts there as well. As someone who travels to Europe about 2-3 times a year, usually at least once to Paris, the CVG flight has never appealed to me though. It must be a very high yield flight because its cost is much higher that the nonstop doesn't make the 2-hour drive worth it for me. I usually connect through DET or JFK to go to Europe, sometimes even ATL. Last year when I went to France, I did CMH-JFK-CDG.
 
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Tue May 28, 2019 9:58 pm

BA adding CVG-LHR, CLE-LHR, and/or CMH-LHR nonstop service is a possibility as BA already serves LHR nonstop from some non-AA hub airports in the US such as ATL, AUS, BWI, BOS, DEN, IAH, LAS, BNA, MSY, EWR, PIT, SAN, SFO, SJC, SEA, and IAD.
 
ncflyer
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Tue May 28, 2019 10:06 pm

flyfresno you fail to mention the biggest issue which is OH doesn’t have much of a hub. Sure enough the one it has (it really is the one Kentucky has) is the one that has the token flight.

Another factor CLE is drivable to so many other airports even Chicago and Toronto.

And thankfully Ohio hasn’t thrown money at billion dollar profit corporations and their highly paid CEOs like IND and PIT have.

Ohio has little to no tourism unlike MSY BNA SLC etc etc.
 
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AirKevin
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Tue May 28, 2019 10:14 pm

ncflyer wrote:
Another factor CLE is drivable to so many other airports even Chicago and Toronto.

I guess that depends on what you consider drivable. I don't know about Toronto, but I do know CLE is at least a 5-hour drive from Chicago if you don't hit traffic.
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stl07
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Tue May 28, 2019 10:18 pm

Ohio had 3 flights last year, it's just that one airline went bankrupt and the other is struggling and had to make cuts. Give it some time and the flights will come back
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uconn99
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Tue May 28, 2019 10:20 pm

AirKevin wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
Another factor CLE is drivable to so many other airports even Chicago and Toronto.

I guess that depends on what you consider drivable. I don't know about Toronto, but I do know CLE is at least a 5-hour drive from Chicago if you don't hit traffic.


I agree, Chicago is at least 5 hours drive time and Toronto can be 4-5 hours. Detroit is the closest hub with multiple international flights, around 2.5 hours drive time. Next would be Pittsburgh around 2 hours.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Tue May 28, 2019 10:21 pm

flyfresno wrote:
The question is, is the lack of one large metro area (the state basically shares three medium sized metro areas, all around 2.1 million people) the main reason that Ohio can't seem to sustain any more than CVG's flight to Paris...?


Yes. If you distributed DEN's population across 45K square miles you wouldn't have jack for a hub, either. BA's willingness to open new North American points doesn't fix this. DL 788s wouldn't fix this.
 
Dragonlionting
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Tue May 28, 2019 10:23 pm

I mean is there even any demand from Europeans to get to Ohio?
 
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stl07
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Tue May 28, 2019 10:26 pm

Dragonlionting wrote:
I mean is there even any demand from Europeans to get to Ohio?

No, there is no demand. Everyone on WOW, FI, and DL are exclusively from Ohio going to Europe
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Delta28L
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Tue May 28, 2019 10:27 pm

DTW takes care of the northwest side of the state. PIT takes care of the eastern side of the state. IND takes care of the western state. CVG takes care of the southern state. All those cities are easily accessible with a three hour or less drive. No need for transatlantic service from any where in Ohio unless it’s a LCC carrier.
 
jfk777
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Tue May 28, 2019 10:28 pm

When CVG was a Delta hub it had lots of flights to Europe, even Sabena flew an A340 to BRU. LGW was flown daily by MD-11 and later by 777. CDG, Zurich, FRA and others were flown nonstop. When Delta merged with Northwest, CVG was declared "Hub Non Gratta" and operations were consolidated in Detroit. Delta built on the NW-KLM alliance and now has triple Detroit to Amsterdam flights daily as well as triple ATL to AMS.

DTW also had some very nice international flights to Japan and China, NW had built a hub to hub airbridge from DTW to Narita. NW came with twin midwest hubs making CVG redundant, Memphis also bit the dust so a NW hub was closed too. CVG has been trying to recover its glory but sadly they haven't returned and with airline consolidation never will.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Tue May 28, 2019 10:30 pm

ncflyer wrote:
And thankfully Ohio hasn’t thrown money at billion dollar profit corporations and their highly paid CEOs like IND and PIT have.


"Ohio airports want $15 million in state budget to attract new flights"
https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019 ... ights.html

Not to mention the incentives for the Icelandic carriers

Pudelhund wrote:
However, Columbus is an extremely quickly growing economy and city in general and I would not be surprised if by 2023 the city has a regular transatlantic flight. The tech, logistics, and fashion industries keep growing very quickly here. That's why we picked up SFO and SEA in addition to many other nonstops in the last few years. Once CMH passes 8 million annual passengers or so, I would expect a transatlantic flight.


Which companies in Central Ohio do a lot of TATL corporate travel, one of the most important things is J demand with a TATL flight. Maybe L brands? That might be whats holding CMH back.
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DeltaRules
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Tue May 28, 2019 10:34 pm

There's a $15M air service fund awaiting a push through the Ohio legislature which would be distributed among the state's airports (with the exception of CVG, as it belongs to Kentucky). Some of this would presumably be the "keeping up with the Joneses" moment to aid TATL service comparable to markets similar to CMH and CLE.

WW and FI reportedly both passed on CMH, but DL has been confirmed by CRAA to be in talks for a TATL flight rumored to be CMH-AMS, which could easily be a 757 route (for what it's worth, BA has been explicitly named as well, but I find that less likely). I don't think it's impossible if the money's there. It may not be the best aid, but Columbus (via LCK) has turned into a decent-sized logistics hub for air cargo. If some of that could be shifted over to ride in the belly of DL (or otherwise) planes, it could help their cause.

Dragonlionting wrote:
I mean is there even any demand from Europeans to get to Ohio?


Probably not, but this could also be said for IND, MCI, PIT, and (until WW failed) STL and all have TATL. You could probably make the argument for BNA as well. If you fund it, they will come.

On the other side, not only do you have Americans wanting to get to Europe, but beyond (Asia, Middle East, Africa).
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Rustbelt
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Tue May 28, 2019 10:54 pm

If I remember correctly, Delta had 4 transatlantic routes from CVG as late as 2010: FRA, CDG, LGW, and AMS (last 2 being on 757-200ER). AF also served CVG along with DL at one time. Also, BRU and FCO were present during CVG's peak. With extremely diverse industries in CIncinnati area, it will not be a surprise to see another transatlantic route starting up in the near future.
 
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Tue May 28, 2019 11:35 pm

The airports may be wanting $15mm but I highly doubt they’ll get it. For one, legislators in cinci, which doesn’t have an Ohio airport have absolutely no reason to support it. For two to my knowledge it’s not in the proposed budget which must be rapped up by June 30.
 
klm617
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Tue May 28, 2019 11:38 pm

I really think that the best option for OH is a CLE-LGW nonstop with DY maybe 2 weekly to start until you build up market share. CLE has shown that it can not sustain flights to Europe on a narrow body even with a subsidy. The loyalty and traffic is not their so they have to point their efforts in a direction which has the most O/D.
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klm617
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Tue May 28, 2019 11:43 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
There's a $15M air service fund awaiting a push through the Ohio legislature which would be distributed among the state's airports (with the exception of CVG, as it belongs to Kentucky). Some of this would presumably be the "keeping up with the Joneses" moment to aid TATL service comparable to markets similar to CMH and CLE.

WW and FI reportedly both passed on CMH, but DL has been confirmed by CRAA to be in talks for a TATL flight rumored to be CMH-AMS, which could easily be a 757 route (for what it's worth, BA has been explicitly named as well, but I find that less likely). I don't think it's impossible if the money's there. It may not be the best aid, but Columbus (via LCK) has turned into a decent-sized logistics hub for air cargo. If some of that could be shifted over to ride in the belly of DL (or otherwise) planes, it could help their cause.

Dragonlionting wrote:
I mean is there even any demand from Europeans to get to Ohio?


Probably not, but this could also be said for IND, MCI, PIT, and (until WW failed) STL and all have TATL. You could probably make the argument for BNA as well. If you fund it, they will come.

On the other side, not only do you have Americans wanting to get to Europe, but beyond (Asia, Middle East, Africa).


Yes but once the money is gone so is the airlines. With these incentives there should be service guarantees beyond when the money runs out. With that kind of money on the table I would at least tie 5 to 10 years service guarantee otherwise they are just throwing good money away. As I said they need to target someone to operate London service that is geared towards the cost conscious traveler. As my second choice I would say Condor to Frankfurt. All through the 70's and 80's CLE was able to carry London and Frankfurt charter services every summer so there is no reason to think those would not work today.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Tue May 28, 2019 11:45 pm

Rustbelt wrote:
If I remember correctly, Delta had 4 transatlantic routes from CVG as late as 2010: FRA, CDG, LGW, and AMS (last 2 being on 757-200ER). AF also served CVG along with DL at one time. Also, BRU and FCO were present during CVG's peak. With extremely diverse industries in CIncinnati area, it will not be a surprise to see another transatlantic route starting up in the near future.


ZRH and MUC were also served.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
klm617
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Tue May 28, 2019 11:46 pm

Midwestindy wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
And thankfully Ohio hasn’t thrown money at billion dollar profit corporations and their highly paid CEOs like IND and PIT have.


"Ohio airports want $15 million in state budget to attract new flights"
https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019 ... ights.html

Not to mention the incentives for the Icelandic carriers

Pudelhund wrote:
However, Columbus is an extremely quickly growing economy and city in general and I would not be surprised if by 2023 the city has a regular transatlantic flight. The tech, logistics, and fashion industries keep growing very quickly here. That's why we picked up SFO and SEA in addition to many other nonstops in the last few years. Once CMH passes 8 million annual passengers or so, I would expect a transatlantic flight.


Which companies in Central Ohio do a lot of TATL corporate travel, one of the most important things is J demand with a TATL flight. Maybe L brands? That might be whats holding CMH back.


GM and Ford.
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MalevTU134
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Tue May 28, 2019 11:51 pm

klm617 wrote:
I really think that the best option for OH is a CLE-LGW nonstop with DY maybe 2 weekly to start until you build up market share. CLE has shown that it can not sustain flights to Europe on a narrow body even with a subsidy. The loyalty and traffic is not their so they have to point their efforts in a direction which has the most O/D.

Really? CO operated TATL flights from CLE for almost 15 years, albeit mostly seasonally. No subsidies were involved.
 
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spinkid
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Tue May 28, 2019 11:56 pm

I understand. Its frustrating, but they are sort of a victim of their Geography. It benefits in that they can reach any major international destination just by making one stop in numerous directions on a short first hop. PIT, PHL, JFK, IAD, CLT, BOS, DTW, and same with trans pac and South America through MIA, IAH and DFW, and ATL.
Its frustrating for such a developed area to have to make two connections to lesser tier cities such as flying CMH-JFK-OSL-BGO.
 
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 12:11 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
I really think that the best option for OH is a CLE-LGW nonstop with DY maybe 2 weekly to start until you build up market share. CLE has shown that it can not sustain flights to Europe on a narrow body even with a subsidy. The loyalty and traffic is not their so they have to point their efforts in a direction which has the most O/D.

Really? CO operated TATL flights from CLE for almost 15 years, albeit mostly seasonally. No subsidies were involved.


The national economy has changed in that time and the changes in many respects have not benefited Ohio. Aside from the overall economy, you have to look at business travel (vital to entice service which sticks) as well as demand on both sides of the flight either for a solid o/d purpose or hub to hub.

Ohio lacks many of these factors.

That is not to say CMH or CVG could pick up international flying in the future but the connecting flight to an international flight is short and carriers will want to see overall travel volume to Europe to/from Ohio to pick up before chancing a new flight, especially if its from CMH versus CVG.
 
lavalampluva
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 12:14 am

They had WW and FI. Obviously that didn’t work.
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Fargo
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 12:17 am

bluefltspecial wrote:
klm617 wrote:
Fargo wrote:

Enough of these sarcastic comments already........ :roll:


Yes ALL sarcastic comments need to be eliminated when we don't agree.


I think Fargo was commenting more on the fact that said user has made multiple comments in other threads sarcastically saying the same thing over and over in reference to DL's lack of 787s, not in reference that they disagree.


This.

Just go back and look at his posting history, he's increasingly saying a lot of sarcastic things and isn't really contributing much to discussions anymore.
 
klm617
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 12:45 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
I really think that the best option for OH is a CLE-LGW nonstop with DY maybe 2 weekly to start until you build up market share. CLE has shown that it can not sustain flights to Europe on a narrow body even with a subsidy. The loyalty and traffic is not their so they have to point their efforts in a direction which has the most O/D.

Really? CO operated TATL flights from CLE for almost 15 years, albeit mostly seasonally. No subsidies were involved.


Agreed but the fact that there was feed for that flight made it sustainable it was never operated on anything bigger than a 757. If CLE wants sustainable transatlantic service with no feed their best bet is DY to LGW or DE to FRA at reasonable prices.
the truth does matter, guys. too bad it's often quite subjective. the truth is beyond the mere facts and figures. it's beyond good and bad, right and wrong...
 
slcdeltarumd11
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 1:26 am

DY I would say is the only real hope . Very likely they will try CMH or CLE.

BA/AA will want a massive deal. LHR slots have lots of value, especially if you are only using a 757 they won't do it unless the package is very good.

Ohio lost its hubs. Kind of want you would expect for Medium North American cities that are spokes. Wish it wasn't true, miss the old CVG days! I remember seeing sabena there but that wasn't sustainable for a non-hub. I would say CVG is lucky to have daily 767 to CDG, don't rock the boat too much.
 
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 1:35 am

Pudelhund wrote:
flyfresno wrote:
The question is, is the lack of one large metro area (the state basically shares three medium sized metro areas, all around 2.1 million people) the main reason that Ohio can't seem to sustain any more than CVG's flight to Paris, or are there other factors that you all think contribute to the lack of service?


I am a Delta frequent flyer based in Columbus, OH, and the simple answer to your question is yes.

However, Columbus is an extremely quickly growing economy and city in general and I would not be surprised if by 2023 the city has a regular transatlantic flight. The tech, logistics, and fashion industries keep growing very quickly here. That's why we picked up SFO and SEA in addition to many other nonstops in the last few years. Once CMH passes 8 million annual passengers or so, I would expect a transatlantic flight.

Cincinnati is also growing very quickly and Delta has hinted at walking back its cuts there as well. As someone who travels to Europe about 2-3 times a year, usually at least once to Paris, the CVG flight has never appealed to me though. It must be a very high yield flight because its cost is much higher that the nonstop doesn't make the 2-hour drive worth it for me. I usually connect through DET or JFK to go to Europe, sometimes even ATL. Last year when I went to France, I did CMH-JFK-CDG.


Do you have a link about DL and CVG? I'd be interested in reading it. It will always be redundant to DTW.
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GSP psgr
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 2:00 am

I've always thought a DL 752 on CLE-AMS/CDG would make a vast amount of sense, like what Delta has done with PIT and IND. DL's in somewhat of a transatlantic capacity crunch right now, though.
 
caliboy93
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 2:12 am

Proximity to Chicago and the East Coast which have the lion's share of transatlantic flights.
 
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 2:20 am

At the end of the day, Ohio is a 1-1.5 hour flight away from a dozen major hubs with significant TATL service. There is simply no reason to offer nonstops unless someone big is willing to pay for them.

CVG-CDG works because major Fortune 500 companies willing to buy J and GE engine parts.

CMH and CLE don't have that apparently, or they'd have TATL flights too.
 
Delta28L
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 2:42 am

GSP psgr wrote:
I've always thought a DL 752 on CLE-AMS/CDG would make a vast amount of sense, like what Delta has done with PIT and IND. DL's in somewhat of a transatlantic capacity crunch right now, though.


PIT lost the DL route to CDG. Isn’t IND on a 767 now?
 
fedex1
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 3:28 am

IND started service a year ago on a 767-300.... seems to be doing well, from what I have read on the IND thread. . .
 
Antarius
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 3:35 am

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
DY I would say is the only real hope . Very likely they will try CMH or CLE.

BA/AA will want a massive deal. LHR slots have lots of value, especially if you are only using a 757 they won't do it unless the package is very good.

Ohio lost its hubs. Kind of want you would expect for Medium North American cities that are spokes. Wish it wasn't true, miss the old CVG days! I remember seeing sabena there but that wasn't sustainable for a non-hub. I would say CVG is lucky to have daily 767 to CDG, don't rock the boat too much.


Who would operate the 757? AA has one non-hub TATL service - RDU. BA does not operate any 757s.

The only option from OW would be BA and the smallest gauge they have is the 788.
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aviationaware
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 3:37 am

Next thread: Why is there no direct service to Sydney from Wyoming.

Seriously:

The only one among the top 40 employers in the Columbus area that could produce a good amount of traffic to Europe is Boehringer Ingelheim at #40. That's not enough to warrant a service there.

Cleveland is even worse with only Bayer potentially creating some traffic, and at only 450 employees there the amount will be tiny. And given the fact that Bayer is about to go bankrupt, well let's not dive into that.

Bottomline, no potential for corporate contracts and no hub = no direct flight. Easy as that.
Last edited by aviationaware on Wed May 29, 2019 3:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 3:39 am

Lets not forget CLE also had service to Belgrade at one point.
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fedex1
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 3:41 am

Here is my question I asked on the IND thread. . . It looks as if the IND - CDG flight is doing well in both Pax #s along with cargo in the belly. What stops CMH from getting that same flight? Aren’t both cities very comparable?
 
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 3:46 am

fedex1 wrote:
Here is my question I asked on the IND thread. . . It looks as if the IND - CDG flight is doing well in both Pax #s along with cargo in the belly. What stops CMH from getting that same flight? Aren’t both cities very comparable?


No. Indianapolis has way more European businesses than any city in Ohio. Significant ones include Roche and Rolls Royce.
 
uconn99
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 3:51 am

I would think a service like EI BDL-DUB would work for CLE and CMH. But EI isn't exactly expanding right now with the 757 leaving and A321 slowly taking over.
 
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Midwestindy
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Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 4:02 am

fedex1 wrote:
Here is my question I asked on the IND thread. . . It looks as if the IND - CDG flight is doing well in both Pax #s along with cargo in the belly. What stops CMH from getting that same flight? Aren’t both cities very comparable?


1. IND has good incentives in place, which is a basic need when a brand new TATL is being opened

2. IND has GE engine components in the belly of the IND-CDG flight, and FedEx cargo on the CDG-IND leg

3. IND has a sizable amount of corporations with major presences in the IND area that require significant TATL travel; Cummins, Eli Lilly, Roche, Salesforce, Infosys, Rolls-Royce, e.t.c
3a. Some of these large corporations have expressed to Delta that the flight is extremely important to them, hence why it was added

Compare to CMH
-------------------------------
1. No comparable incentives in place.....at this point, that may change if the 15 million plan goes through

2. Cargo at CMH is more difficult because LCK handles MOST of the cargo in the Columbus area. If they want to they can transport cargo on a CMH-Europe flight, but it isn't as simple as it is in IND

3. Correct me if I am wrong CMH people, but it seems that most of the companies with large operations in Central Ohio are more North America/Asia focussed. For example, Nationwide, JP Morgan, and Honda. The obvious exception is L Brands
Status for 2019/2020: AAdvantage Platinum, Delta Gold, Southwest A-List
 
fedex1
Posts: 297
Joined: Sat Feb 20, 2010 6:54 pm

Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 4:14 am

MidWest, I can always count on you sir! Thank you.
 
FlyingElvii
Posts: 341
Joined: Wed Dec 27, 2017 10:53 pm

Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 4:58 am

DeltaRules wrote:
There's a $15M air service fund awaiting a push through the Ohio legislature which would be distributed among the state's airports (with the exception of CVG, as it belongs to Kentucky). Some of this would presumably be the "keeping up with the Joneses" moment to aid TATL service comparable to markets similar to CMH and CLE.

WW and FI reportedly both passed on CMH, but DL has been confirmed by CRAA to be in talks for a TATL flight rumored to be CMH-AMS, which could easily be a 757 route (for what it's worth, BA has been explicitly named as well, but I find that less likely). I don't think it's impossible if the money's there. It may not be the best aid, but Columbus (via LCK) has turned into a decent-sized logistics hub for air cargo. If some of that could be shifted over to ride in the belly of DL (or otherwise) planes, it could help their cause.

Dragonlionting wrote:
I mean is there even any demand from Europeans to get to Ohio?


Probably not, but this could also be said for IND, MCI, PIT, and (until WW failed) STL and all have TATL. You could probably make the argument for BNA as well. If you fund it, they will come.

On the other side, not only do you have Americans wanting to get to Europe, but beyond (Asia, Middle East, Africa).

BNA has the advantage of a very large Premium traffic base, that everyone wants to cater to, and a vibrant manufacturing base to drive Intl traffic.
Other than a huge Company in Cincinnati driving Corporate traffic to Paris, Ohio’s manufacturing base has declined massively, almost to the point of irrelevancy, as compared to the past.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1155
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 5:28 am

Uhhh Bayer is in Pittsburgh. Guess Wyoming must be the HQ of Sherwin Williams, Eaton, Parker Hannifen, Timken, and Goodyear, all of which have tremendous operations around the world. Lots of misinformation on this thread.

aviationaware wrote:
Next thread: Why is there no direct service to Sydney from Wyoming.

Seriously:

The only one among the top 40 employers in the Columbus area that could produce a good amount of traffic to Europe is Boehringer Ingelheim at #40. That's not enough to warrant a service there.

Cleveland is even worse with only Bayer potentially creating some traffic, and at only 450 employees there the amount will be tiny. And given the fact that Bayer is about to go bankrupt, well let's not dive into that.

Bottomline, no potential for corporate contracts and no hub = no direct flight. Easy as that.
 
ewt340
Posts: 747
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 5:33 am

Well, maybe they could count their blessing when A321LR/XLR arrived in town. Seems more plausible that way.
 
aviationaware
Posts: 2812
Joined: Mon May 19, 2014 12:02 pm

Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 5:46 am

ncflyer wrote:
Uhhh Bayer is in Pittsburgh.


Apparently a global corporation of 112,000 people having multiple offices in one of its most important markets is a ground breaking revelation to you.
 
ncflyer
Posts: 1155
Joined: Tue Sep 05, 2000 7:03 pm

Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 6:03 am

Your quote was “ Clevelsnd is even worse with only Bayer potentially creating some traffic”.

Where in NEO is Bayers operation, I honestly didn’t know about it but it’d be a wonderful company to have generating travel out of NEO. Have the other companies I’ve mentioned gone out of business and I missed the news? Did cleveland clinic, which is an international hospital, move to Cheyenne and I missed that too? How about nestles international food research hub in Solon— that’s smaller than Bayer? Very surprising to learn this.
 
MalevTU134
Posts: 2091
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2016 8:04 pm

Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 6:38 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Lets not forget CLE also had service to Belgrade at one point.

That was Budapest, on MA. Or, hey, was there Belgrade, too?? Did they manage to attract not one, but several looney airlines?
 
TWA902fly
Posts: 3039
Joined: Fri Dec 31, 1999 5:47 am

Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 6:44 am

klm617 wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
ncflyer wrote:
And thankfully Ohio hasn’t thrown money at billion dollar profit corporations and their highly paid CEOs like IND and PIT have.


"Ohio airports want $15 million in state budget to attract new flights"
https://www.cleveland.com/business/2019 ... ights.html

Not to mention the incentives for the Icelandic carriers

Pudelhund wrote:
However, Columbus is an extremely quickly growing economy and city in general and I would not be surprised if by 2023 the city has a regular transatlantic flight. The tech, logistics, and fashion industries keep growing very quickly here. That's why we picked up SFO and SEA in addition to many other nonstops in the last few years. Once CMH passes 8 million annual passengers or so, I would expect a transatlantic flight.


Which companies in Central Ohio do a lot of TATL corporate travel, one of the most important things is J demand with a TATL flight. Maybe L brands? That might be whats holding CMH back.


GM and Ford.


Also I assume Nestle

'902
life wasn't worth the balance, or the crumpled paper it was written on
 
bhxalex
Posts: 153
Joined: Fri Jan 25, 2019 8:40 am

Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 6:46 am

MalevTU134 wrote:
klm617 wrote:
I really think that the best option for OH is a CLE-LGW nonstop with DY maybe 2 weekly to start until you build up market share. CLE has shown that it can not sustain flights to Europe on a narrow body even with a subsidy. The loyalty and traffic is not their so they have to point their efforts in a direction which has the most O/D.

Really? CO operated TATL flights from CLE for almost 15 years, albeit mostly seasonally. No subsidies were involved.


To flip it the other way around, BHX had continuous UA tatl service for decades until 18 months ago, aswell as AA service for more often than not in the last 25 years, but now the only tatl service is scheduled charters to Orlando. 4 million people live in the Birmingham metro area, more than double that of Cleveland.
 
FlyingSlowly
Posts: 3
Joined: Wed Jan 24, 2018 3:36 pm

Re: Lack of Transatlantic Service from Ohio

Wed May 29, 2019 7:39 am

flyfresno wrote:
... The six states directly below Ohio in population - Georgia, North Carolina, Michigan, New Jersey, Virginia, and Washington - all have a fairly large amount of transoceanic service...

Obviously, Ohio's population is much more spread out than those states (Georgia, Michigan, Virginia, New Jersey, and Washington all have transoceanic service focusing on one major metro area, all of which are much larger than any of Ohio's metro areas), ... but there are definitely a lot of companies headquartered in Ohio and quite a bit of money in the state that I would think would justify ... transatlantic flights. Still, with CLE's Icelandair service being dropped, it seems that airlines just can't make money flying across the pond from Ohio.

The question is, is the lack of one large metro area (the state basically shares three medium sized metro areas, all around 2.1 million people) the main reason that Ohio can't seem to sustain [transatlantic service], or are there other factors that you all think contribute to the lack of service?


1) You cannot fairly compare Ohio to states that have airline hubs. It's largely about the hub-and-spoke model that has become entrenched in the US airline industry.

2) It wasn't just Icelandair. It was WOW Air too. Starting service at the same time. To the same place. And Iceland really isn't all the way across the Atlantic. So they both fell apart, and one company took over the other. And now neither serves CLE.

3) CVG is not Ohio. Every year that goes by without Ohio building a large passenger airport between DAY and CVG (to replace them both) is a huge tax revenue loss for Ohio. All the business from the CVG airport provides nothing to Ohio. No jobs, no tax revenue, no real economic benefit... But I digress.

4) Population distribution is one part of the equation. But two other factors must be considered. (A) Attracting and retaining an airline hub (B) Population mobility

(A) CLE Airport was never built as a proper hub with runways spaced far enough apart for simultaneous approaches in poor weather. And CLE has a lot of poor weather! It's even worse than other places such as Chicago because we get lake effect snow. Deicing costs and delays are huge when they become a regular event throughout the winter, making CLE even geographically a poor choice for an airline hub. CLE airport has additionally been poorly run for a couple decades now. It's per-passenger enplanement costs are quite high, and we have nothing to show for it. Other airports with similar costs actually have shiny new terminals, not relics of buildings from a bygone era...

(B) To answer your question in the most positive way, increasing population mobility between CLE and CMH is the best way to get transatlantic service. It's actually the best way to increase direct air service to all points both domestic and international. How can this be done, you might ask? Do what the Japanese did OVER 50 YEARS AGO!!! A high speed rail link between the CLE and CMH airports would be the best economic boost to the Ohio economy in decades. Increasing mobility between its two central cities (geographically) would be huge...both for people within the state, and those wanting to do business with places outside.

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