9w748capt
Posts: 1635
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 am

Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 11:50 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Seabear wrote:
Dougie's well aware that the average traveller chooses his/her flight based on price, price, price, price, and finally, price, in that order. And despite whatever indignities are heaped upon the great unwashed flying in steerage, they inevitably return for more if they can save a buck.

^ This!


How's that race to the bottom working out for Dougie and for AA? Now the mechanics are pissed, and why not. And AA realizes they just don't earn enough to pay their employees fairly and reward the C suite with millions at the same time. This is going to be a long summer!
 
kondoo
Posts: 27
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 12:50 pm

airlineaddict wrote:
The ultimate coup would be to bring Kirby back as CEO.


Kirby leaving American and taking Andrew with him and some other is that best that happened to AA post merger
 
spannacomo
Posts: 97
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 5:38 pm

Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 12:51 pm

9w748capt wrote:
spannacomo wrote:
In july 2017 qatar airlines wanted to buy AA shares as they did with BA, LATAM and others, but doug parker opposed the plan. Shares had a value of 50+ USD at that time, now they are traded at 30- USD. That means there is a 10% shareholders who could have sold their shares at 20+ USD than they can now. If I were one of them I would be very angry.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-06/american-air-ceo-frightened-by-qatar-stake-plan-al-baker-says


Um...so if the stock price is $20 less than what QR would've paid, how would that have benefited QR? Above you say "20+ USD than they can now." What does that mean?

"They" is referred to AA shareholders. QR would have bought their shares at 50+ USD, now they (the shareholders) could sell the same shares at 20 USD less. Why did parker oppose QR plan? Very stupid.
 
Aptivaboy
Posts: 794
Joined: Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:32 pm

Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 1:06 pm

I love the pizza analogies in this thread. They really illustrate the issues perfectly!
 
slider
Posts: 7422
Joined: Wed Feb 25, 2004 11:42 pm

Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 1:11 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
I love the pizza analogies in this thread. They really illustrate the issues perfectly!


Somewhere, Gordon Bethune should be smiling.


IMHO, AA has a culture problem. The scars weren't healed from the US-HP merger, and then AA turbocharged another merger. They absorbed TWA and an understandably embittered workforce there that was stapled to the bottom. US was always a hodge podge mess of other amalgamated carriers. What is the identity of today's AA??

Probably time for Dougie to go.

Whomever gets the job has to do one prominent thing--build a strong culture. A new AA culture, none of this "I used to be XX airline" stuff. If they do NOTHING but focus on culture, the rest can come into line. You'd think by now the lessons from the UA-CO merger would be clear.
 
Detroit313
Posts: 248
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 1:18 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Miamiairport wrote:
In a way DL does play a bit of bait and switch. They put in shinny new AVOD while adding more seats to their a/c and give out better snacks. Maybe if the pax is engrossed in a library of movies they don't realize they are cramped to hell and well "I might as well fly one of those budget airlines."


DL 738 = 160 total seats

AA Oasis 738, 172 total seats

DL 321, 192 total seats

AA Oasis 321, 196 total seats

It's not DL playing 'cramped to hell.' Go ahead and compare AA to AS and UA 738s, or to AS 321s.


Stop with the fake news! AA's 321s have up to 12 seats less than Delta's depending on legacy.

And even after the retrofit they will have less seats than Delta's.

Also, they don't have the tiny lavs that are inside the back galley like Delta's.
Last edited by Detroit313 on Thu May 30, 2019 1:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Detroit313
Posts: 248
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2017 2:56 pm

Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 1:22 pm

slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
AA has a real problem. You can tell being on board. They want premium prices but offer the experience of a ULCC.

Fly on an Oasis plane and tell me it doesn't feel just like Spirit. The first class seats are WAY worse than the older big front seats on spirit and certainly no better then the newer ones. My last AA flight i couldn't see much better than spirit, frontier, or allegiant and i was trying. The oasis planes are a disaster.


Oh, I didn't know Spirit has power ports and USB ports at every seat, very fast satelitte internet that allows every person on the plane to even stream at the same time, free Live TV, free entertainment with a huge variety of movies and shows, free Apple Music, giant overhead bins. An Oasis plane has all that. A Spirit or Frontier or even United and Alaska, I don't think so. Even Delta doesn't have satellite internet on a lot of their planes. AA has it on pretty much every narrow body now.
 
SunsetLimited
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 1:27 pm

AA is trying to be both Emirates and Spirit at the same time. Not a good proposition.

Also, the combined airline is probably just too large for the current management team to effectively manage. They could handle a USAirways-sized airline. In over their heads with the combined carrier.

The pot needs to be shaken.
Spread hope like fire.
 
EvanWSFO
Posts: 1145
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 1:30 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Miamiairport wrote:
In a way DL does play a bit of bait and switch. They put in shinny new AVOD while adding more seats to their a/c and give out better snacks. Maybe if the pax is engrossed in a library of movies they don't realize they are cramped to hell and well "I might as well fly one of those budget airlines."


DL 738 = 160 total seats

AA Oasis 738, 172 total seats

DL 321, 192 total seats

AA Oasis 321, 196 total seats

It's not DL playing 'cramped to hell.' Go ahead and compare AA to AS and UA 738s, or to AS 321s.


It's not just about the seats. It's the attitude of the front line employees. They don't seem to care. They are just going through the motions. Gate agents, FA's - they simply don't seem to be motivated. The average flyer is more likely to remember bad service than a cramped seat. This is where AA is getting crushed by the competition.
I have been on this site 15 years. A unrecoverable email account led me to starting over. Those of you who call me a rookie, you may stop ok?
 
MIflyer12
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 1:37 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Miamiairport wrote:
In a way DL does play a bit of bait and switch. They put in shinny new AVOD while adding more seats to their a/c and give out better snacks. Maybe if the pax is engrossed in a library of movies they don't realize they are cramped to hell and well "I might as well fly one of those budget airlines."


DL 738 = 160 total seats

AA Oasis 738, 172 total seats

DL 321, 192 total seats

AA Oasis 321, 196 total seats

It's not DL playing 'cramped to hell.' Go ahead and compare AA to AS and UA 738s, or to AS 321s.


It's not just about the seats. It's the attitude of the front line employees. They don't seem to care. They are just going through the motions. Gate agents, FA's - they simply don't seem to be motivated. The average flyer is more likely to remember bad service than a cramped seat. This is where AA is getting crushed by the competition.


Sure, there's an attitude problem. But AA's performance can't be fixed unless employees - front line up to C Suite - understand the objective performance issues. AA crams in more seats. It has less AVOD. It is more often late. It has more IDB. It has more cancellations. It has more misrouted bags. There's a lot of people misinformed or in denial about their own airline.
 
mia
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 1:42 pm

OB1504 wrote:
Think about that for a minute. If the “Product and service doesn’t matter as long as we’re cheap” mantra stopped working for Spirit, why would AA expect it to work for them long term?


The changes are reflected in their stock price. Anecdotally, I was forced to fly Spirit last year (at about this time) because I needed to be at MSY at 10:00 am and I needed to buy my flight with <24 hours notice. I took a hit and bought their EWR-MSY flight as it was the only one that left early enough to ensure I was there on time. You know, I honestly could feel the difference in culture. Do I consider flying Spirit now? Yes. My willingness to tolerate the discomfort of their seats and crappy website was increased, at least I will be treated with dignity (which was not the case under K Baldanza).
"Like all great travelers, I have seen more than I remember, and remember more than I have seen."
 
9w748capt
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 2:46 pm

Detroit313 wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Miamiairport wrote:
In a way DL does play a bit of bait and switch. They put in shinny new AVOD while adding more seats to their a/c and give out better snacks. Maybe if the pax is engrossed in a library of movies they don't realize they are cramped to hell and well "I might as well fly one of those budget airlines."


DL 738 = 160 total seats

AA Oasis 738, 172 total seats

DL 321, 192 total seats

AA Oasis 321, 196 total seats

It's not DL playing 'cramped to hell.' Go ahead and compare AA to AS and UA 738s, or to AS 321s.


Stop with the fake news! AA's 321s have up to 12 seats less than Delta's depending on legacy.

And even after the retrofit they will have less seats than Delta's.

Also, they don't have the tiny lavs that are inside the back galley like Delta's.


Yet DL is the one that's perceived (rightly) to be investing in their product, not taking a massive dump all over it the way AA is doing. Cramped seats - tiny lavs - seems like on a DL plane those things inconvenience you until you turn on your TV and all of a sudden forget that you're trapped like a sardine in a metal tube. On AA you'll likely deal with a surly check-in agent, a gate agent that will maybe say "thank you" to 10% of passengers on a good day, and indifferent FAs for the most part (not that there aren't some fantastic crews on AA, there are, they're just the exception, not the norm). It's night and day.
 
EvanWSFO
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 2:52 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

DL 738 = 160 total seats

AA Oasis 738, 172 total seats

DL 321, 192 total seats

AA Oasis 321, 196 total seats

It's not DL playing 'cramped to hell.' Go ahead and compare AA to AS and UA 738s, or to AS 321s.


It's not just about the seats. It's the attitude of the front line employees. They don't seem to care. They are just going through the motions. Gate agents, FA's - they simply don't seem to be motivated. The average flyer is more likely to remember bad service than a cramped seat. This is where AA is getting crushed by the competition.


Sure, there's an attitude problem. But AA's performance can't be fixed unless employees - front line up to C Suite - understand the objective performance issues. AA crams in more seats. It has less AVOD. It is more often late. It has more IDB. It has more cancellations. It has more misrouted bags. There's a lot of people misinformed or in denial about their own airline.


I do not disagree with you, but the "who cares" attitude has to change first. IMO, AVOD is over-rated, but that's my preference to my own device, or even a real, honest to God book. I maintain that until the employees get it together, AA could offer 40" pitch, lovely in-flight entertainment with full course free meals, and it still would be mired in mediocrity.
I have been on this site 15 years. A unrecoverable email account led me to starting over. Those of you who call me a rookie, you may stop ok?
 
chonetsao
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 3:03 pm

9w748capt wrote:
spannacomo wrote:
In july 2017 qatar airlines wanted to buy AA shares as they did with BA, LATAM and others, but doug parker opposed the plan. Shares had a value of 50+ USD at that time, now they are traded at 30- USD. That means there is a 10% shareholders who could have sold their shares at 20+ USD than they can now. If I were one of them I would be very angry.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-06/american-air-ceo-frightened-by-qatar-stake-plan-al-baker-says


Um...so if the stock price is $20 less than what QR would've paid, how would that have benefited QR? Above you say "20+ USD than they can now." What does that mean?


You are assuming if QR bought the share AAL would still tank by $20. The biggest mistake.

AAL is 83% owned by institution investors. The rest is owned by AA management share compensation plan and small number of retail investors. QR wanted to purchase 5% in open market. That would put the total share of institution investors to 88%.

When a stock is that highly concentrated in ownership by institutional investors, its share price movement is irrelevant to its stability unless a big chunk of institutional investors started to flee.

Should QR bought at $50, to QR it is only paper loss. QR has the long term view to increase to 10%, a low share price will help QR to average out. The dividend alone and the ability to talk to AA to strike some commercial deals are far more attractive than paper loss.
 
Austin787
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:39 pm

Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 3:09 pm

OB1504 wrote:
N649DL wrote:
Maybe they can bring back Horton? He was well-liked and is largely responsible as to why AA has such a massive Airbus fleet to do heavy phasing out of the S80 earlier this decade.


Absolutely not. As far as labor is concerned, he bankrupted the airline and opened the door to mass outsourcing. If you think labor relations are bad now, they would riot if Horton came back.

Actually, Arpey drove AA into bankruptcy. After AA filed, Arpey left and Horton was tasked with fixing AA.
 
codc10
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 3:20 pm

ABEguy wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I think AA is getting that it's current approach is not working, which is part of the reason OASIS is getting delayed. AA has a lot of good assets. It has plenty of time to turn around. It's premium product is good on the times I've flown with them. I think AAL is quite underpriced compared to some of the other airline stocks.

The pause to the Oasis retro is probably due to the summer schedule, and needing those ac to fly rather than be down for service. Once summer ends they’ll be back on track.


AA might be reconsidering the Oasis strategy, but the current pause in reconfiguration is absolutely attributable to the MAX grounding. It's also why United isn't painting airplanes in the new livery.

9w748capt wrote:
airlineaddict wrote:
The ultimate coup would be to bring Kirby back as CEO.


Please, no. I'd almost rather be stuck with Dougie than bring Kirby back. Last thing we need is for AA's meals to get snacked again.


Scott Kirby will be United's next CEO, and is the architect behind United's turnaround. Oscar smoothed out the remaining loose ends and ill will from the merger, but United is a winner now because of Kirby's plan, which is well into its second year. The first management team with Oscar at the helm was warmer and fuzzier, but no more competent than the band of misfits under Jeff. United was rudderless until Kirby came over. It's hard to deny that, looking at the stock and operational performance of the company since his arrival. American lost perhaps the best airline manager in the business when Kirby left, and he took a lot of talented people with him. AA has suffered for it.

Delta has been cutting its domestic meal service to the bone, too. United isn't alone in this regard.

I agree with the notion that AA needs some fresh leadership.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 3:32 pm

EvanWSFO wrote:

It's not just about the seats. It's the attitude of the front line employees. They don't seem to care. They are just going through the motions. Gate agents, FA's - they simply don't seem to be motivated. The average flyer is more likely to remember bad service than a cramped seat. This is where AA is getting crushed by the competition.


I experience none of this. Every interaction I have had on AA has been acceptable to down right outstanding. I don't understand the hate here. And I actually fly them more than ever before.
 
ABEguy
Posts: 69
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 3:44 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
Miamiairport wrote:
In a way DL does play a bit of bait and switch. They put in shinny new AVOD while adding more seats to their a/c and give out better snacks. Maybe if the pax is engrossed in a library of movies they don't realize they are cramped to hell and well "I might as well fly one of those budget airlines."


DL 738 = 160 total seats

AA Oasis 738, 172 total seats

DL 321, 192 total seats

AA Oasis 321, 196 total seats

It's not DL playing 'cramped to hell.' Go ahead and compare AA to AS and UA 738s, or to AS 321s.


Little piece of advice. If you’re going to speak in hyperbole and make things up, no body will take anything you say seriously. Current delta 321s seat 192. AAs seat either 181 or 187. That’s LESS cramped than Delta. Oasis 321s seat 190. Again that’s LESS than 192 at Delta. 321nx does seat 196 but that’s because one of the C type emergency exits is now gone and replaced with plug doors, allowing for another row of seats.

Now if you want to criticize AAs front line employees and their attitudes, or the plummeting on time performance, there you’d have a point. Stop making things up.
 
9w748capt
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 3:52 pm

TVNWZ wrote:
EvanWSFO wrote:

It's not just about the seats. It's the attitude of the front line employees. They don't seem to care. They are just going through the motions. Gate agents, FA's - they simply don't seem to be motivated. The average flyer is more likely to remember bad service than a cramped seat. This is where AA is getting crushed by the competition.


I experience none of this. Every interaction I have had on AA has been acceptable to down right outstanding. I don't understand the hate here. And I actually fly them more than ever before.


If I was you I'd be buying lottery tickets left and right. I also assume you've never flown to or through PHL?
 
9w748capt
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 3:54 pm

chonetsao wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
spannacomo wrote:
In july 2017 qatar airlines wanted to buy AA shares as they did with BA, LATAM and others, but doug parker opposed the plan. Shares had a value of 50+ USD at that time, now they are traded at 30- USD. That means there is a 10% shareholders who could have sold their shares at 20+ USD than they can now. If I were one of them I would be very angry.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-07-06/american-air-ceo-frightened-by-qatar-stake-plan-al-baker-says


Um...so if the stock price is $20 less than what QR would've paid, how would that have benefited QR? Above you say "20+ USD than they can now." What does that mean?


You are assuming if QR bought the share AAL would still tank by $20. The biggest mistake.

AAL is 83% owned by institution investors. The rest is owned by AA management share compensation plan and small number of retail investors. QR wanted to purchase 5% in open market. That would put the total share of institution investors to 88%.

When a stock is that highly concentrated in ownership by institutional investors, its share price movement is irrelevant to its stability unless a big chunk of institutional investors started to flee.

Should QR bought at $50, to QR it is only paper loss. QR has the long term view to increase to 10%, a low share price will help QR to average out. The dividend alone and the ability to talk to AA to strike some commercial deals are far more attractive than paper loss.


I know. I was confused by the bizarre wording of the other post.
 
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TVNWZ
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 4:11 pm

9w748capt wrote:

If I was you I'd be buying lottery tickets left and right. I also assume you've never flown to or through PHL?


No. lottery odds are not good.
I have flown through PHL. But, only once in March and it was without incident and my interaction was perfectly acceptable. But, usually, I do not. Most of my travel is through ORD, DFW, or PHX. I am DM on DL, but have been flying AA more because their schedule and pricing have been better. There is very little difference between the two in the service I have received. And, I can actually turn around in the AA lavs. AA may have its issues. But, as a customer, I do not see the doom and gloom.
 
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yyz717
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 5:35 pm

I also am keeping an eye on AA shares. Whatever financial and operational challenges that AA has (every airline has challenges), the steep drop in AA share price is beginning to make AAL a very attractive stock pick. Share price is down about 50% since January 2018.

I plan to buy in the coming days, and hold.
I dumped at the gybe mark in strong winds when I looked up at a Porter Q400 on finals. Can't stop spotting.
 
Elementalism
Posts: 458
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 5:37 pm

kabq737 wrote:
Things just don't look good at AA right now.

I think that it is time for a management shakeup. The merger is over and the airline is in need of an upper management team that knows how to create an identity and make money rather than merge over and over. Doug did his job but his time should be up.

I think that AA simply has a massive identity crisis. They seem to be running in millions of different directions without a key mission or identity. This leaves employees and passengers alike feeling lost and confused about what type of company AA is.

These problems are fixable but only if arrested soon before they grow too big to tackle.


Turning into the Sears of airlines. Not sure if they want ULCC or premium. Cant be both.
 
Elementalism
Posts: 458
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 5:39 pm

yyz717 wrote:
I also am keeping an eye on AA shares. Whatever financial and operational challenges that AA has (every airline has challenges), the steep drop in AA share price is beginning to make AAL a very attractive stock pick. Share price is down about 50% since January 2018.

I plan to buy in the coming days, and hold.



Difficult to buy even at what looks like a premium without a change at the top. Nothing looks like it is going to improve so 50% may not even be a good deal right now. And we are about due for a recession in the next 12-24 months. So if this is how they perform during a hot economy. I wouldnt want to be a shareholder during a recession.
 
Miamiairport
Posts: 234
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 5:42 pm

Parker has taken the idea of I'll give you what you pay for. AA has FL lounges being upgraded at the same time Y- seating is getting to be nearly inhuman (but by no means is AA alone). In theory it should work. Those sitting in an International $8K J seat get one type of experience, the backpacker in 41E that paid 10% of that a totally different experience.

However, the financials and KPIs just aren't there. Maybe it's too much like a retailer trying to split it's store locations between Wal Mart on one side and Neiman Marcus on the other. I think it's time for new leadership and a different strategy.
 
Brickell305
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 6:49 pm

Miamiairport wrote:
Parker has taken the idea of I'll give you what you pay for. AA has FL lounges being upgraded at the same time Y- seating is getting to be nearly inhuman (but by no means is AA alone). In theory it should work. Those sitting in an International $8K J seat get one type of experience, the backpacker in 41E that paid 10% of that a totally different experience.

However, the financials and KPIs just aren't there. Maybe it's too much like a retailer trying to split it's store locations between Wal Mart on one side and Neiman Marcus on the other. I think it's time for new leadership and a different strategy.

The problem is that it's difficult to entirely segregate your service levels in such a way. The businessman flying MIA-LHR who gets to use the Flagship Lounge and enjoys a business class experience on his work trip may very well be the dad going on vacation with his family of four heading to Barbados in a cramped (both in business and economy, but especially in economy) Oasis 737. It becomes even worse for AA when you factor in people who live where their hubs face extreme competition (NYC, LAX, CHI) and outside the hubs.Why fly AA? What value proposition do they provide that can't be achieved by other airlines? If I live in New York, why am I flying AA to pay the same fares that I can get on other airlines that provide better service?
 
WillieWatkins
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 7:14 pm

why doesn't american offer freshly grilled hamburgers in their first class cabin anymore?
 
AAplat4life
Posts: 318
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 8:33 pm

These service comparisons between AA and other carriers are symptomatic of the bigger issues. Delta and United can more easily get away with making the same loyalty cutbacks because they have better networks. When AA does it, there seems to be more of an alienation factor driving away its best customers. This has exacerbated AA’s revenue lag, for which the market has punished the stock price in the past. With spotty international service (on my recent flight from HKG to LAX the food was just awful in first class), it’s astounding that management complains about lack of premium revenue compared to its piers.

Of course, now the market price is reflecting subpar profits, operational issues and labor strife. AA high debt level compared to its piers is still an issue. Management’s response has been to build up DFW touting it as the most profitable hub. I’ll take them at their word, but somewhere AA has got to be bleeding money that siphons off the tremendous profits it claims to be making there and at CLT and DCA.
 
Miamiairport
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 9:20 pm

AAplat4life wrote:
These service comparisons between AA and other carriers are symptomatic of the bigger issues. Delta and United can more easily get away with making the same loyalty cutbacks because they have better networks. When AA does it, there seems to be more of an alienation factor driving away its best customers. This has exacerbated AA’s revenue lag, for which the market has punished the stock price in the past. With spotty international service (on my recent flight from HKG to LAX the food was just awful in first class), it’s astounding that management complains about lack of premium revenue compared to its piers.

Of course, now the market price is reflecting subpar profits, operational issues and labor strife. AA high debt level compared to its piers is still an issue. Management’s response has been to build up DFW touting it as the most profitable hub. I’ll take them at their word, but somewhere AA has got to be bleeding money that siphons off the tremendous profits it claims to be making there and at CLT and DCA.


If I had to venture a guess AA bleeds red like dying lion prey in NYC. Given what's happen to many South American countries and the increased competition at MIA that hub is no longer a running printing press. LAX probably another market AA is challenged. So how could one expect CLT and DCA to pick up the slack. At least LAA had been an operational problem child pre merger and post merger it hasn't got much better. Operational inefficiencies cost money. Late arriving flights and flights sitting at the gate well after departure drive up expenses. GAs working to 3AM in the morning (a fairly common site at MIA) because loads of paxs missed the one and only connection due to AA's inability to run banked hubs cost money. When you miss your connection or your flight leaves 7 hours late one tends to notice how they are trapped in an airline seat like a caged animal. It's all related.
 
Aptivaboy
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 9:54 pm

Why fly AA? What value proposition do they provide that can't be achieved by other airlines? If I live in New York, why am I flying AA to pay the same fares that I can get on other airlines that provide better service?


True. I used to fly American a lot in the nineties and early 2000s, but really not any longer. I enjoyed them more than United back then, only Continental being preferred to American. Since the mergers, however, I haven't seen anything that would interest me in flying AA. Whenever I search for flights I almost invariably find cheaper fares and better amenities on United and Hawaiian, for example, not to mention better connections; my friends and family who have flown American lately have been far from impressed. I really want to see American return to its glory days; I'm not an American basher. I'm just not sure what the solution is. What I do believe is that American's current trajectory is obviously not a positive one, and something or someone must step forward to change it.
 
NYCAAer
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 11:08 pm

Miamiairport wrote:
AAplat4life wrote:
These service comparisons between AA and other carriers are symptomatic of the bigger issues. Delta and United can more easily get away with making the same loyalty cutbacks because they have better networks. When AA does it, there seems to be more of an alienation factor driving away its best customers. This has exacerbated AA’s revenue lag, for which the market has punished the stock price in the past. With spotty international service (on my recent flight from HKG to LAX the food was just awful in first class), it’s astounding that management complains about lack of premium revenue compared to its piers.

Of course, now the market price is reflecting subpar profits, operational issues and labor strife. AA high debt level compared to its piers is still an issue. Management’s response has been to build up DFW touting it as the most profitable hub. I’ll take them at their word, but somewhere AA has got to be bleeding money that siphons off the tremendous profits it claims to be making there and at CLT and DCA.


If I had to venture a guess AA bleeds red like dying lion prey in NYC. Given what's happen to many South American countries and the increased competition at MIA that hub is no longer a running printing press. LAX probably another market AA is challenged. So how could one expect CLT and DCA to pick up the slack. At least LAA had been an operational problem child pre merger and post merger it hasn't got much better. Operational inefficiencies cost money. Late arriving flights and flights sitting at the gate well after departure drive up expenses. GAs working to 3AM in the morning (a fairly common site at MIA) because loads of paxs missed the one and only connection due to AA's inability to run banked hubs cost money. When you miss your connection or your flight leaves 7 hours late one tends to notice how they are trapped in an airline seat like a caged animal. It's all related.


Actually, AA is profitable in NYC, but the lack of a reasonable network is driving corporate contracts to DL. The highest number of seats sold in the premium cabins is highest in New York, very few markets can support a First Class product. Unfortunately, the “new AA” doesn’t compete anymore, it retreats to markets like DFW, CLT and PHL where there’s no other real choice for the air traveler.

Add low morale to the whole scenario, the mechanics are not happy, the legacy AA employees are not happy working for the world’s largest low-cost carrier, and you have a mess.
 
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chepos
Posts: 6782
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AA stock hits a 3-year low

Thu May 30, 2019 11:38 pm

NYCAAer wrote:
Miamiairport wrote:
AAplat4life wrote:
These service comparisons between AA and other carriers are symptomatic of the bigger issues. Delta and United can more easily get away with making the same loyalty cutbacks because they have better networks. When AA does it, there seems to be more of an alienation factor driving away its best customers. This has exacerbated AA’s revenue lag, for which the market has punished the stock price in the past. With spotty international service (on my recent flight from HKG to LAX the food was just awful in first class), it’s astounding that management complains about lack of premium revenue compared to its piers.

Of course, now the market price is reflecting subpar profits, operational issues and labor strife. AA high debt level compared to its piers is still an issue. Management’s response has been to build up DFW touting it as the most profitable hub. I’ll take them at their word, but somewhere AA has got to be bleeding money that siphons off the tremendous profits it claims to be making there and at CLT and DCA.


If I had to venture a guess AA bleeds red like dying lion prey in NYC. Given what's happen to many South American countries and the increased competition at MIA that hub is no longer a running printing press. LAX probably another market AA is challenged. So how could one expect CLT and DCA to pick up the slack. At least LAA had been an operational problem child pre merger and post merger it hasn't got much better. Operational inefficiencies cost money. Late arriving flights and flights sitting at the gate well after departure drive up expenses. GAs working to 3AM in the morning (a fairly common site at MIA) because loads of paxs missed the one and only connection due to AA's inability to run banked hubs cost money. When you miss your connection or your flight leaves 7 hours late one tends to notice how they are trapped in an airline seat like a caged animal. It's all related.


Actually, AA is profitable in NYC, but the lack of a reasonable network is driving corporate contracts to DL. The highest number of seats sold in the premium cabins is highest in New York, very few markets can support a First Class product. Unfortunately, the “new AA” doesn’t compete anymore, it retreats to markets like DFW, CLT and PHL where there’s no other real choice for the air traveler.

Add low morale to the whole scenario, the mechanics are not happy, the legacy AA employees are not happy working for the world’s largest low-cost carrier, and you have a mess.


To be honest, when was the last time LAA employees were happy? Sure wasn’t the 90’s eg, 93 APFA strike, 97 pilot strike, 2000’s were not much better.

As someone who grew up flying AA during the 90’s and 2000’s mainly between SJU-JFK/MIA/MCO, the experience back then was far from glamorous. The staff in Miami and Kennedy was less than friendly back then as well. There is a reason B6 came into the market and was an instant success. AA has had issues that run way deep, we seem to romanticize of an AA from apparently the 80’s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Last edited by chepos on Thu May 30, 2019 11:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Fly the Flag!!!!
 
Aurantiaco
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Fri May 31, 2019 12:02 am

compensateme wrote:
Great time to buy AAL...

It would be expensive to do so. Plus, AA is pretty much too big to fail.
 
N505fx
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Fri May 31, 2019 12:47 am

Dougie is behind the power curve now, the stock is depressed = pissed of shareholders. He has lost the hearts and minds of all of the rank and file = operational problems. Cutting the product and devaluing loyalty = revenue erosion ....time for the drunk to hit the skids.
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Fri May 31, 2019 1:30 am

TripleA wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
slcdeltarumd11 wrote:
AA has a real problem. You can tell being on board. They want premium prices but offer the experience of a ULCC.

Fly on an Oasis plane and tell me it doesn't feel just like Spirit. The first class seats are WAY worse than the older big front seats on spirit and certainly no better then the newer ones. My last AA flight i couldn't see much better than spirit, frontier, or allegiant and i was trying. The oasis planes are a disaster.


Their roots are a ULCC (America West, remember). Basically, brand acquired, nothing changed.


HP was not an ULCC carrier


Spirit type? No.

Southwest type? Yes.

America West was one of the first airlines to use extensive "cross-utilization", in which employees were trained in a variety of airline jobs, such as pilots being trained in dispatch, and both baggage handlers and flight attendants being trained as gate agents. America West started as a "full-service" airline, in contrast with Southwest Airlines, the discount air carrier competing in many markets. America West used an aggressive employee stock ownership program, in which new employees were required to invest 20% of their salary in company stock, providing a steady flow of cash as the company grew. America West pilots and other employees were paid wages far below those of competitors


They did not market themselves as a ULCC, but did use the southwest type of tactics to reduce cost and lower fares.
Last edited by Gulfstream500 on Fri May 31, 2019 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
Thinking of a good signature is hard...
 
MSPNWA
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Fri May 31, 2019 1:30 am

Sounds like a good time to buy stock.

If Doug has to go, it will act as a placebo like Munoz was to UA. Expect a short-term positive impact, but in the long-run the negative culture has to be improved. It's like firing the coach or manager because you can't fire the players.
 
NYCAAer
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Fri May 31, 2019 1:59 am

chepos wrote:
AA has had issues that run way deep, we seem to romanticize of an AA from apparently the 80’s.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I started my career with AA in the 1980s, so know what it was like during the “good old days.” I stand by the opinion that if Horton was the CEO of the combined companies, we’d see a very different, better AA today. But the unions wouldn’t have it, and were hell-bent on going with Parker and his minions instead. A lot of the rank and file at legacy AA wanted no part of Parker, but the union leadership doesn’t listen. I’m working under a contract that I voted against, my work rules have changed so much, I can barely keep up. Many of my co-workers thought Parker was some sort of knight in shining armor who was going to “save” AA from corporate greed. I disagree. I’ve said it before here, Horton was concerned with improving customer experience as well as restoring profitability.

It boggles my mind that AA is about 20% larger than DL, but its profits are half of DL. How does the board of directors sit still with this?
 
NYCAAer
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Fri May 31, 2019 2:02 am

Aurantiaco wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Great time to buy AAL...

It would be expensive to do so. Plus, AA is pretty much too big to fail.


Never say never, Pan Am, Eastern, Braniff, TWA come to mind. I wouldn’t ever be cocky about it.
 
NYCAAer
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Fri May 31, 2019 2:07 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Sounds like a good time to buy stock.

If Doug has to go, it will act as a placebo like Munoz was to UA. Expect a short-term positive impact, but in the long-run the negative culture has to be improved. It's like firing the coach or manager because you can't fire the players.


It would have to be more than just Parker- everyone from America West in the executive ranks would have to go with him. And what’s also frightening is they’ve fired a lot of mid-level and low-level managers from legacy AA and replaced them with their own people. There were some very skilled managers who knew what they were doing, and had been there for years. Experienced, hard workers. But they weren’t ULCC enough, I guess.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Fri May 31, 2019 2:12 am

I saw a video review of their new A321neo. It looks terribly bland. First class looks especially cheap.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Fri May 31, 2019 2:15 am

NYCAAer wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
Sounds like a good time to buy stock.

If Doug has to go, it will act as a placebo like Munoz was to UA. Expect a short-term positive impact, but in the long-run the negative culture has to be improved. It's like firing the coach or manager because you can't fire the players.


It would have to be more than just Parker- everyone from America West in the executive ranks would have to go with him. And what’s also frightening is they’ve fired a lot of mid-level and low-level managers from legacy AA and replaced them with their own people. There were some very skilled managers who knew what they were doing, and had been there for years. Experienced, hard workers. But they weren’t ULCC enough, I guess.


Agreed. I think the best thing that could have happened is if HP and US had never merged and US had been allowed to go under. It would have taken out excess capacity a lot sooner and the industry would have been much more stable.
 
N649DL
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Fri May 31, 2019 2:40 am

nine4nine wrote:
Gotta get Doug Parker out of there. They guy is a schmuck. He has destroyed what AA built up to pre merger. They became a great airline with great service only to be turned into an ULCC in a tuxedo. As an ex multi year gold with AA, I haven’t stepped foot on AA metal for 4 years. I hope the board can force his exit before he plows AA into the ground.


Agreed. It seems like many of the domestic airline CEO's these days came out of the AA "Brat Pack" from the Early 1990s which includes Horton and Parker. And for Parker it's come full circle: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/american-b ... eir-wings/

The thing to note that many were spoiled MBA students that were financial analysts in the Early 1990s. That doesn't mean they're visionaries in running an airline. Parker was the ultimate brat that got extremely luck throughout his career. However, I have to hand it to him as he comes off as extremely charismatic in-person (at least in interviews) so I doubt he's going anywhere. He's like 1/8th of an crooked a-hole compared to Jeff Smisek at UAL.

"And what’s also frightening is they’ve fired a lot of mid-level and low-level managers from legacy AA and replaced them with their own people. There were some very skilled managers who knew what they were doing, and had been there for years. Experienced, hard workers. But they weren’t ULCC enough, I guess."

That sounds like what CO did when they went over to UA. Of course that backfired and is now ancient history.
 
Aurantiaco
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Fri May 31, 2019 3:13 am

NYCAAer wrote:
Aurantiaco wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Great time to buy AAL...

It would be expensive to do so. Plus, AA is pretty much too big to fail.


Never say never, Pan Am, Eastern, Braniff, TWA come to mind. I wouldn’t ever be cocky about it.

We’re talking about the worlds largest airline. I’m not a fan of American but you gotta consider the facts.
 
apodino
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Fri May 31, 2019 3:22 am

NYCAAer wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
Sounds like a good time to buy stock.

If Doug has to go, it will act as a placebo like Munoz was to UA. Expect a short-term positive impact, but in the long-run the negative culture has to be improved. It's like firing the coach or manager because you can't fire the players.


It would have to be more than just Parker- everyone from America West in the executive ranks would have to go with him. And what’s also frightening is they’ve fired a lot of mid-level and low-level managers from legacy AA and replaced them with their own people. There were some very skilled managers who knew what they were doing, and had been there for years. Experienced, hard workers. But they weren’t ULCC enough, I guess.

Here is another tidbit about some of the people brought in after the merger. Many of the managers that were brought in after the merger were actually former NW managers that were shown the door after the DL merger. Which is telling. You are trying to compete against what many would argue the best run airline in the US in DL, with managers that they didn't want. How does that make sense? Also note the labor difficulties AA is currently having? Exactly like NW back in the day.

As for the HUB situation and people are wondering with DFW poorly managed but making money what is losing money. I cant say for certain, but Doug Parker has stated to employees that the three most profitable hubs in the system are CLT, DCA and DFW. The next tier is ORD, PHX, and PHL. The loss leaders or bottom feeders are JFK/LGA, LAX, and MIA. MIA is noteworthy because it is an AA fortress hub, and has long been believed to be printing money for AA. Not so much these days it seems, but it is not a place they are going to be able to walk away from easily.
 
ABEguy
Posts: 69
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2018 7:02 pm

Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Fri May 31, 2019 3:27 am

TTailedTiger wrote:
I saw a video review of their new A321neo. It looks terribly bland. First class looks especially cheap.


I know! And just look at their terrible 737 cabin, with those awful device holders!

https://airlinegeeks.com/wp-content/upl ... 78x381.jpg
 
NYCAAer
Posts: 679
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:22 pm

Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Fri May 31, 2019 3:32 am

apodino wrote:
NYCAAer wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
Sounds like a good time to buy stock.

If Doug has to go, it will act as a placebo like Munoz was to UA. Expect a short-term positive impact, but in the long-run the negative culture has to be improved. It's like firing the coach or manager because you can't fire the players.


It would have to be more than just Parker- everyone from America West in the executive ranks would have to go with him. And what’s also frightening is they’ve fired a lot of mid-level and low-level managers from legacy AA and replaced them with their own people. There were some very skilled managers who knew what they were doing, and had been there for years. Experienced, hard workers. But they weren’t ULCC enough, I guess.

Here is another tidbit about some of the people brought in after the merger. Many of the managers that were brought in after the merger were actually former NW managers that were shown the door after the DL merger. Which is telling. You are trying to compete against what many would argue the best run airline in the US in DL, with managers that they didn't want. How does that make sense? Also note the labor difficulties AA is currently having? Exactly like NW back in the day.

As for the HUB situation and people are wondering with DFW poorly managed but making money what is losing money. I cant say for certain, but Doug Parker has stated to employees that the three most profitable hubs in the system are CLT, DCA and DFW. The next tier is ORD, PHX, and PHL. The loss leaders or bottom feeders are JFK/LGA, LAX, and MIA. MIA is noteworthy because it is an AA fortress hub, and has long been believed to be printing money for AA. Not so much these days it seems, but it is not a place they are going to be able to walk away from easily.


Vasu Raja, VP of Network and Capacity Planning, publicly stated very recently that JFK is profitable for the first time in many years, so who knows what to believe? Of course, JFK has been cut to the bare minimum. I have heard rumblings that LAX and its transpacific expansion has been less than stellar, but they’re keeping it for the long run in hopes that it will be successful. Many destinations served by 777 equipment out of LAX have been replaced with 787s to cut costs and deploy the 777s where they can make money. But nothing seems to be panning out. Q1 2019 had lower profits than its peers DL and UA, and was less than WN as well.
 
9w748capt
Posts: 1635
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 am

Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Fri May 31, 2019 4:00 am

And yet rumor has it that they're going to gut AAdvantage again on 7/31. It defies logic. It beggars belief. I'm running out of cliches.

If I ran a company that was lagging far behind my peers in performance, the last thing I'd do is gut or cheapen the product even more. And the funny thing is AAdvantage is why AA is even profitable at all!
 
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compensateme
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Fri May 31, 2019 4:17 am

Aurantiaco wrote:
NYCAAer wrote:
Aurantiaco wrote:
It would be expensive to do so. Plus, AA is pretty much too big to fail.


Never say never, Pan Am, Eastern, Braniff, TWA come to mind. I wouldn’t ever be cocky about it.

We’re talking about the worlds largest airline. I’m not a fan of American but you gotta consider the facts.


I was inferring purchasing stock. I bought UA shortly after it dragged the doctor of the and, and it’s made me a nice return. I grabbed some AA hoping for the same result.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
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jsnww81
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Fri May 31, 2019 5:53 am

chepos wrote:
To be honest, when was the last time LAA employees were happy? Sure wasn’t the 90’s eg, 93 APFA strike, 97 pilot strike, 2000’s were not much better.

As someone who grew up flying AA during the 90’s and 2000’s mainly between SJU-JFK/MIA/MCO, the experience back then was far from glamorous. The staff in Miami and Kennedy was less than friendly back then as well. There is a reason B6 came into the market and was an instant success. AA has had issues that run way deep, we seem to romanticize of an AA from apparently the 80’s.


Amen. I've been flying AA my entire life (nearly 40 years) and I remember plenty of labor strife and surly employees back in the "glory days" of the 1990s. Planes had more legroom and you got a free meal (or a Bistro Bag, for anyone old enough to remember those!) but the cabin crews were often just as indifferent and lazy as they are today.

AA employees have been picking fights with management for decades. You could give each of them a $100 bill and they'll complain because they wanted smaller banknotes.
 
PRAirbus
Posts: 727
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Re: AA stock hits a 3-year low

Fri May 31, 2019 10:58 am

One of AAs biggest problems is not knowing who they want to be; either full service or LCC. One sets foots on a LUS plane and it's like traveling backwards. The brand is in crisis; look at the way cabin crew members are dressed (besides the alleged uniform drama); one wonders if they own a mirror. Labor negotiations will likely get heated and toxic. Many LAA managers have been replaced by LUS LCC folks. An intervention is needed!!!

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