anshabhi
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Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 6:21 am

So is this the biggest set back for PW GTF yet? Their largest customer, IndiGo has decided to go with CFM LEAP for the last 180 aircraft on order

https://twitter.com/ari_maj/status/1133921779469000704

The reason is obvious- major reliability issues with the GTF and maybe mouth watering deal from CFM
 
KFLLCFII
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 7:30 am

Makes sense...Go with engines rather than gearboxes which happen to have engines attached.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
AA737-823
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 7:56 am

Well, there could be several sensible reasons behind it.
Aside from the obvious, they may have simply wanted diversification for the fleet. AA flies both IAE and CFM on their pre-merger Airbus orders (CFM on 319 and IAE on 321, then the merger threw everything out the window!). LH did similarly. DL has both Pratt and GE powered 767-300s.
And maybe CFM agreed to let them set up an MRO or something.

But, the elephant in the room is obviously the reliability.

KFLLCFII wrote:
Makes sense...Go with engines rather than gearboxes which happen to have engines attached.


That's pretty lame, dude. It's not as if the PW GTF is the only geared-fan engine in commercial service. Plus, the gearbox and the fan aren't the problem; it's the rest of the engine.
 
KFLLCFII
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 8:20 am

AA737-823 wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
Makes sense...Go with engines rather than gearboxes which happen to have engines attached.

the gearbox and the fan aren't the problem; it's the rest of the engine.

You misunderstood that this was exactly the point.
"About the only way to look at it, just a pity you are not POTUS KFLLCFII, seems as if we would all be better off."
 
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flee
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 8:28 am

Airlines are losing patience, and PW can only blame themselves for being so tardy in resolving the issues. Its payback time now.
 
Vladex
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 11:12 am

GTF engines sound and look so much better and I bet they are the most efficient so I am not into this. A321 LR is probably based on GTF.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 11:39 am

This is a blow to Pratt. Indigo is a huge customer. This isn't a simple deal, but as a Pratt fan, I cannot say I'm surprised.

Lightsaber
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ikolkyo
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 1:06 pm

Vladex wrote:
GTF engines sound and look so much better and I bet they are the most efficient so I am not into this. A321 LR is probably based on GTF.


Doesn’t matter if the plane can’t fly anywhere. Also the A321LR test frame was a LEAP powered aircraft.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 1:09 pm

That is a big blow to Pratt. IndiGo is the largest A320neo customer. It likely is an indication that initial reliability and maintainability issues are not getting resolved.
 
anshabhi
Topic Author
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 1:17 pm

Are there any stats available on the fuel savings achieved from both LEAP and GTF?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 1:40 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
That is a big blow to Pratt. IndiGo is the largest A320neo customer. It likely is an indication that initial reliability and maintainability issues are not getting resolved.

I've posted before, poor reliability costs more than fuel.
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 1:45 pm

lightsaber wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
That is a big blow to Pratt. IndiGo is the largest A320neo customer. It likely is an indication that initial reliability and maintainability issues are not getting resolved.

I've posted before, poor reliability costs more than fuel.


Very true. AOG airplanes, diversions from inflight shutdowns and an ever present regulator can be costly

The Forbes article from last year completely downplayed the reliability issues

Promising reliability. As 2018 began, some operators were reporting durability issues with seals and a combustor panel, but those concerns have been addressed and appropriate fixes were made to the engines already delivered. Provisions have also been made to have more spare engines available on short notice. The Geared Turbofan family is now exhibiting exceptional reliability for a transformational system that debuted less than three years ago: engine dispatch reliability, meaning availability, on A320neo is 99.9%, on A220 99.8%, and on E190-E2 100%.


https://www.forbes.com/sites/lorenthomp ... baae0d7e94

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1416861
 
stephanwintner
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 3:48 pm

Does anyone have a picture of the reliability issues PW has faced across their GTFs?

Most of the issues seem to be occuring in India. Off the top of my head, I am aware of one (very major) IFSD on a Korean Air Cseries and one one a Vietnam A321NEO. I think Swiss, LH, Air Baltic etc have had better reliability. I do recall an article where LH said they were satisfied, given that it was a new product and they expected improvement with maturity.

But I haven't seen any sort of statistics or data, that's really just my impressions. Anyone have any data?

Stephan
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 5:28 pm

stephanwintner wrote:

Most of the issues seem to be occuring in India.

Stephan


Until recently Indigo seems to have followed fly until it pops, motto. Recently the regulator imposed more checks.

Probably Indigo's contract with PW/Airbus facilitated them with 6hr swaps and good compensation them to follow that model. My guess PW cannot continue to offer such service and compensation on future contracts. it is not going to be financially viable. Without such a contract, Indigo's bottom line will be hit.

So it is a win-win situation, I guess.
Last edited by dtw2hyd on Thu May 30, 2019 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Someone83
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 5:33 pm

stephanwintner wrote:
Most of the issues seem to be occuring in India.


If my memory is correct, one of the issue is that certain types of pollution has a very negative effect on the wear and tear of the engine
 
Vladex
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 5:44 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Vladex wrote:
GTF engines sound and look so much better and I bet they are the most efficient so I am not into this. A321 LR is probably based on GTF.


Doesn’t matter if the plane can’t fly anywhere. Also the A321LR test frame was a LEAP powered aircraft.


Any other operator that has problems ?
 
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NearMiss
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 5:51 pm

Quick question related to this. Can airlines reengine the A320NEO?
"There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 5:58 pm

Vladex wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Vladex wrote:
GTF engines sound and look so much better and I bet they are the most efficient so I am not into this. A321 LR is probably based on GTF.


Doesn’t matter if the plane can’t fly anywhere. Also the A321LR test frame was a LEAP powered aircraft.


Any other operator that has problems ?


Yeah, ask any airline that operates the engine. See how many engine swaps have had to happen.
 
Woodreau
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 6:01 pm

No. The plumbing is not compatible between the CFM and PW engines

It would require new wings and engine pylons
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
SEA
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 6:24 pm

Vladex wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:
Vladex wrote:
GTF engines sound and look so much better and I bet they are the most efficient so I am not into this. A321 LR is probably based on GTF.


Doesn’t matter if the plane can’t fly anywhere. Also the A321LR test frame was a LEAP powered aircraft.


Any other operator that has problems ?


Spirit has had quite a few issues as well. But pretty much every operator.
 
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william
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 7:21 pm

anshabhi wrote:
Are there any stats available on the fuel savings achieved from both LEAP and GTF?


I have asked this question, over and over on Anet and no one really has an answer. Which is odd, since we have both types of engines being used on a single airframe. Comparison would be easy.
 
Airlines0613
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 8:49 pm

william wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Are there any stats available on the fuel savings achieved from both LEAP and GTF?


I have asked this question, over and over on Anet and no one really has an answer. Which is odd, since we have both types of engines being used on a single airframe. Comparison would be easy.

I’ve heard their burn is quite similar as the LEAP core is pretty advanced and GTFs are relatively new.
 
Vladex
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 9:05 pm

SEA wrote:
Vladex wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:

Doesn’t matter if the plane can’t fly anywhere. Also the A321LR test frame was a LEAP powered aircraft.


Any other operator that has problems ?


Spirit has had quite a few issues as well. But pretty much every operator.


Show me inactive planes. It sounds like FUD.
 
Vladex
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 9:06 pm

Airlines0613 wrote:
william wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Are there any stats available on the fuel savings achieved from both LEAP and GTF?


I have asked this question, over and over on Anet and no one really has an answer. Which is odd, since we have both types of engines being used on a single airframe. Comparison would be easy.

I’ve heard their burn is quite similar as the LEAP core is pretty advanced and GTFs are relatively new.


The bypass ratio is significantly higher 12.5 vs 11 and GTF just has less noise which indicates efficiency.
 
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LTU932
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 9:17 pm

AA737-823 wrote:
LH did similarly.
As far as LH is concerned, they only fly IAE engines on the A321 CEOs. The A319 and A320 CEO have CFM engines. I don't know how the breakdown is on the NEOs, but the A320 NEO was ordered with both CFM and PW engines (the first batch being PW powered).
Sometimes the only thing more dangerous than a question is an answer. - Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 208
 
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AECM
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Thu May 30, 2019 9:26 pm

LTU932 wrote:
AA737-823 wrote:
LH did similarly.
As far as LH is concerned, they only fly IAE engines on the A321 CEOs. The A319 and A320 CEO have CFM engines. I don't know how the breakdown is on the NEOs, but the A320 NEO was ordered with both CFM and PW engines (the first batch being PW powered).


Lufthansa ordered both the A32N and A21N with a mix of PW and CFM. In both aircraft's the first to be delivered will be powered by PW (maybe LH did like this to get CFM with some improvements later on).
 
trex8
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Fri May 31, 2019 12:41 am

william wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Are there any stats available on the fuel savings achieved from both LEAP and GTF?


I have asked this question, over and over on Anet and no one really has an answer. Which is odd, since we have both types of engines being used on a single airframe. Comparison would be easy.

Not total apples and oranges as routes may be different etc
https://airinsight.com/airbus-a320neo-f ... n-numbers/
 
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william
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Fri May 31, 2019 4:20 am

trex8 wrote:
william wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
Are there any stats available on the fuel savings achieved from both LEAP and GTF?


I have asked this question, over and over on Anet and no one really has an answer. Which is odd, since we have both types of engines being used on a single airframe. Comparison would be easy.

Not total apples and oranges as routes may be different etc
https://airinsight.com/airbus-a320neo-f ... n-numbers/


Thank you, the way I read it, the LEAP holds its own and even beats the much hyped GTF engine in certain parameters. Interesting.
 
SEA
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Fri May 31, 2019 12:09 pm

Vladex wrote:
SEA wrote:
Vladex wrote:

Any other operator that has problems ?


Spirit has had quite a few issues as well. But pretty much every operator.


Show me inactive planes. It sounds like FUD.


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ne-436707/
 
Armadillo1
Posts: 245
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Re: Indigo to switch from Pratt & Whitney engines to CFM engines for A320neo.

Fri May 31, 2019 12:28 pm

trex8 wrote:
Not total apples and oranges as routes may be different etc
https://airinsight.com/airbus-a320neo-f ... n-numbers/


how about seat numbers/density?

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