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keesje
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Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:00 am

The grandfathering discussion on new program launches has dragged on for many years 1996:
"The latest issue concerns the Boeing 737-X series and whether, despite being a rewinged, re-engined, re-instrumented version of the previous series, it will gain any advantage over the A3 20 by virtue of grandfathering anomalies. This has yet to be made clear."
https://www.flightglobal.com/FlightPDFArchive/1996/1996%20-%200036.PDF

Apparently there is a grey area. Is an aircraft a derivative of an existing aircraft or is there so much new you should test and certify as a new aircraft.

Aircraft manufacturers prefer grandfathering of existing STC's (also e.g. A346). If you are certifying to today’s rules instead of rules from thirty years ago – today’s rules are always tougher than yesterday’s. But, those rules are tougher for a reason & flight safety usually is part of the deal.

On the 777X:
On April 19, 2017 (for the Model 777-8 airplane), and May 12, 2015 (for the 777-9 airplane), Boeing applied for an amendment to Type Certificate (TC) No. T00001SE to include the new Model 777-8 and 777-9 airplanes.
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2018/05/18/2018-10576/special-conditions-the-boeing-company-model-777-8-and-777-9-airplanes-folding-wingtips

The 777-9 and 777-8 have entirely new wings, engines, cockpits, landings gears, fuselages (structure, higher, bigger windows), control dimensions and many systems. Apparently it is certified as amendments on Type Certificate (TC) No. T00001SE, 777-300ER.

Image
Source: https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/boeing-777x-trouble-strong-execution/

On the 777-9, will FAA / DoT have a second look & check for short cuts / efficiency's in the certification process? Out of the 737MAX research, new certification process requirements might see the light. Inclusion in the 777-9 STC process might depend on the level of 777-300ER grand fathering allowed. I one believes old agreement on this will stand, there might be surprises. Things happened.

:arrow: New fuselage, controls, tail, wings, engines, new cockpit. Is this a 777X or a 7X7?
:arrow: Apart from safety considerations, are there economical drivers that conflict?
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B777LRF
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:21 am

If the FAA & Boeing harbour any ambition of regaining the trust of both the public, industry professionals and airlines, they'll need to perform a full review of certification requirements. But, most of all, the FAA need to bring back in-house the vast majority of authorisations it signed over to Boeing. As has been demonstrated with both the 787 and 737 Max, Boeing are not to be trusted to do their own certification work.

Which would result in a very extensive EIS delay, bringing back the conundrum of what's most important; money or safety? Boeing has demonstrated time and again it's the former, one can only hope the 737 Max debacle will be sufficient for them to see the light. The cynic in my doubt that very much, however, as Boeing are seemingly only beholden to Wall Street and looks no further than the next quarterly.
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FrenchPotatoEye
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:22 am

Who cares as long as it's tested properly and certified with full safety.
 
ELBOB
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:29 am

B777LRF wrote:
But, most of all, the FAA need to bring back in-house the vast majority of authorisations it signed over to Boeing.


The problem is that the FAA, and other regulators, no longer have the budget & experienced manpower to do so. That's why they have outsourced certification testing to the manufacturers. Do people realise that Cessna has full type-certificate certification authority, too, under the ODA scheme? Of course not because Cessna seem to be an engineering-orientated organisation that does the cert work properly and doesn't raise headlines*

I think the model of national regulators duplicating each other's certification work, and making a mess of it, is broken. Perhaps they should focus on national issues like pilot licensing and hand certification over to an ICAO group.


* though they had the CofA for the Conquest suspended in 1979, that was well before the delegation scheme was implemented
Last edited by ELBOB on Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:32 am

ELBOB wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
But, most of all, the FAA need to bring back in-house the vast majority of authorisations it signed over to Boeing.


The problem is that the FAA, and other regulators, no longer have the budget experienced manpower to do so. That's why they have outsourced certification testing to the manufacturers. Do people realise that Cessna has full type-certificate certification authority, too, under the ODA scheme? Of course not.

I think the model of national regulators duplicating each other's certification work is broken. Perhaps they should focus on national issues like pilot licensing and hand certification over to an ICAO group.


Taking a step back, maybe there are enough people with the right skills, but they do not report to the right, independent employer.
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Bricktop
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:42 am

Do EASA peer-review the FAA's work (and vice-versa) or is it a mutual "if they say it's OK, that works for me" approach?
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:43 am

keesje wrote:
Taking a step back, maybe there are enough people with the right skills, but they do not report to the right, independent employer.

No, take a step back and accept that these are human beings who have lives and need jobs. If you want the government to have these employees on staff, then go right ahead and raise taxes on the people so that they can offer a competitive wage and benefit package.
 
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ro1960
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:44 am

keesje wrote:
New fuselage, controls, tail, wings, engines, new cockpit. Is this a 777X or a 7X7?


The picture states "wider cross section". We're talking cabin width here, right? Not fuselage width which remains unchanged at 6.20m.
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keesje
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 11:55 am

ro1960 wrote:
keesje wrote:
New fuselage, controls, tail, wings, engines, new cockpit. Is this a 777X or a 7X7?


The picture states "wider cross section". We're talking cabin width here, right? Not fuselage width which remains unchanged at 6.20m.


The fusealge has been stretched, interior dimensions grew. The question would be if structural changes have been made to achieve this, that could influence e.g. structures fatigue testing.


par13del wrote:
keesje wrote:
Taking a step back, maybe there are enough people with the right skills, but they do not report to the right, independent employer.

No, take a step back and accept that these are human beings who have lives and need jobs. If you want the government to have these employees on staff, then go right ahead and raise taxes on the people so that they can offer a competitive wage and benefit package.


I think many feel safety assurance & independence for certifying bodies go hand in hand. There's 300 body bags and we must be open to safety process enhancements.
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expat92
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:38 pm

I for one don't care who does the certifying - in house or government - only that it is done PROPERLY and in real world scenarios. Expert pilots can be used so long as they do the certifying thinking in terms of real world tired stressed pilots. Also "grandfathering" should just go; not be amended, adjusted, updated... just go. I realise that this will increase costs (probably a lot) but the time has come (along time ago) for safety to come before costs. (I know I am an anomaly for the great unwashed) but I really would PREFER to pay a bit more for my ticket if it means that the plane (and crew) have been properly checked out for all scenarios.
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:49 pm

keesje wrote:
I think many feel safety assurance & independence for certifying bodies go hand in hand. There's 300 body bags and we must be open to safety process enhancements.

Yeah, so if they are not government employee's who is going to go through the financials of the private company, their shareholders, political affiliations, social leanings etc etc etc.
Simple solution, either use what you have now or have them become government employees.
 
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DL717
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 12:52 pm

keesje wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
keesje wrote:
New fuselage, controls, tail, wings, engines, new cockpit. Is this a 777X or a 7X7?


The picture states "wider cross section". We're talking cabin width here, right? Not fuselage width which remains unchanged at 6.20m.


The fusealge has been stretched, interior dimensions grew. The question would be if structural changes have been made to achieve this, that could influence e.g. structures fatigue testing.


Like the A340-600?
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Waterbomber2
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:06 pm

par13del wrote:
keesje wrote:
I think many feel safety assurance & independence for certifying bodies go hand in hand. There's 300 body bags and we must be open to safety process enhancements.

Yeah, so if they are not government employee's who is going to go through the financials of the private company, their shareholders, political affiliations, social leanings etc etc etc.
Simple solution, either use what you have now or have them become government employees.


If financial limitations of the FAA are what is forcing them to delegate to Boeing, there is an easy solution and that is to do what every government agency does for any type of certification.
Boeing have to pay their certifying engineers anyway, so why not have the FAA do this in-house and charge Boeing for every resource used in the certification process? Why shouldnthe taxpayer foot the billnfor what an individual company wants to get done?

If you take an exam at the DMV, you have to pay the examination fee, why should it be any different for certifying aircraft?

Same thing if you want to apply for a patent, etc...


I think though that the real reason of delegating is different. There are simply just so many things involved that to get an airplane flying, you need to cut a lot of corners and the government don't want to be caught cutting corners.
This was my experience in aircraft maintenance. We received audits but the purpose was not safety, it was merely to give the impression of oversight so thay id something happens, the government can say that they did their part.
They never checked us while performing maintenance and mostly did only paperwork checks.
If I would be an inspector tasked to do a real audit, I would probably lay out enough findings within the first hour, to close down every MRO in the world.
Last edited by Waterbomber2 on Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:12 pm

Who are the employee's going to be working for, Boeing or the FAA? If the FAA we have no issue, if Boeing, how do you eliminate the conflict of interest that folks are presently claiming exist?
 
texl1649
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:13 pm

I suppose the real issue is what could impact safety in a derivative. Derivatives would tend to benefit from the experience/safety of their predecessor models, most of the time, hence the underlying rationale of grandfathering. All of the majors/minors/carriers have benefited from the cost and safety benefit savings of derivative model engineering.

The real risk happens when there is an all new model, which is why there have been so few over the past 30 years. A320, A330, 787, 777, and a couple of failed quads. (Unless you want to argue for Embraer/BBD).

As AF296 crash at Habsheim showed, along with the MAX crashes the past few months, new flight control software can create real risks when it disempowers pilots (with respect to elevator control in all 3 instances). Was the A320 somehow safer though because it wasn't back then a derivative? No.

I think this question/thread is really a very thinly veiled attempt to pile on Boeing as there have been a couple recent tragedies. I also think the 737, despite being a 50 year old design, has had an exemplary safety (and reliability) record, and isn't fatally flawed due to some mistakes made in the newest software. If it had been crashing/much less safe than newer competitors over a period of years an argument might be made otherwise.
 
oldannyboy
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:15 pm

I think people need to grow out of this FAA-only bubble kind of mentality.
Thank god there are other certifying bodies who are not only better funded and more technically apt, but to a large degree far more independent than the FAA. Cue the UK CAA and EASA.
I trust that these bodies will both give Boeing and the FAA a run for their money in the 777/8-9 certification, and should they sniff any of the crap that has lead to having to deal with these 300 body bags they will kick up a royal stink.
 
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:18 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
If financial limitations of the FAA are what is forcing them to delegate to Boeing, there is an easy solution and that is to do what every government agency does for any type of certification.
Boeing have to pay their certifying engineers anyway, so why not have the FAA do this in-house and charge Boeing for every resource used in the certification process? Why shouldnthe taxpayer foot the billnfor what an individual company wants to get done?

If you take an exam at the DMV, you have to pay the examination fee, why should it be any different for certifying aircraft?

Same thing if you want to apply for a patent, etc...

Boeing pay's certification fee's now, it why folks complain about grandfathering, they say Boeing get's by on the cheap by reusing versus doing all over again.
In your example, the DMV employee doing the test is working for the government, so he has no incentive to give strangers a pass, family and friends maybe, but that is his integrity. If on the other hand, the DMV employee is a Boeing employee, whether he pays a fee to the government is the same as what is taking place now, just another way for the government to get revenue without doing any heavy lifting.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:19 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Oh please.


The rest of my response didn’t post so here it is.

Is it really necessary to start analyzing any aircraft that features any sort of grandfathering? The practice is accepted globally. We better start going after many military aircraft that many of these countries also operate too.
 
Bricktop
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:36 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
I think people need to grow out of this FAA-only bubble kind of mentality.
Thank god there are other certifying bodies who are not only better funded and more technically apt, but to a large degree far more independent than the FAA. Cue the UK CAA and EASA.
I trust that these bodies will both give Boeing and the FAA a run for their money in the 777/8-9 certification, and should they sniff any of the crap that has lead to having to deal with these 300 body bags they will kick up a royal stink.

Thanks. That's what I was getting at. More and diverse eyes looking. But did CAA/EASA do their jobs similarly with the MAX, or did they pretty much rubber stamp what the FAA and Boeing gave them? If CAA/EASA did their jobs thoroughly with the MAX derivative, then all that a.net blah blah about coziness between Boeing and the FAA greasing it through is just more of the same background noise. And if they didn't, are they almost as negligent and culpable?

I am more in favor of a world certifying body, but I can't see politically how that would be workable with so many competing interests. Boeing isn't close to being 100% made in the USA, and Airbus isn't close to 100% made in the EU, Brexit notwithstanding. Throw in China in the future, and well. Poop show in the making.
 
caljn
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:57 pm

ELBOB wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
But, most of all, the FAA need to bring back in-house the vast majority of authorisations it signed over to Boeing.


The problem is that the FAA, and other regulators, no longer have the budget & experienced manpower to do so. That's why they have outsourced certification testing to the manufacturers.


Government is only as good as those who run it. Perhaps we should avoid electing the "government is the problem" crowd.
 
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Channex757
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 1:59 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
I think people need to grow out of this FAA-only bubble kind of mentality.
Thank god there are other certifying bodies who are not only better funded and more technically apt, but to a large degree far more independent than the FAA. Cue the UK CAA and EASA.
I trust that these bodies will both give Boeing and the FAA a run for their money in the 777/8-9 certification, and should they sniff any of the crap that has lead to having to deal with these 300 body bags they will kick up a royal stink.

It is probably politically naive but the idea of reciprocity has a lot to be said for it.

Airbus builds an A3YZ, the FAA does the certifying. Similarly when Boeing builds a 787-12NG it gets certified by the CAA. Japan brings its planes to the USA etc, and the issuance of the paperwork is then honoured by all parties. A core set of rules could be developed and as it's a fixed scheme then grandfathering would either be minimal or consigned to history. If you want it certifying then put it up for test and pay for it.
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:07 pm

Channex757 wrote:
oldannyboy wrote:
I think people need to grow out of this FAA-only bubble kind of mentality.
Thank god there are other certifying bodies who are not only better funded and more technically apt, but to a large degree far more independent than the FAA. Cue the UK CAA and EASA.
I trust that these bodies will both give Boeing and the FAA a run for their money in the 777/8-9 certification, and should they sniff any of the crap that has lead to having to deal with these 300 body bags they will kick up a royal stink.

It is probably politically naive but the idea of reciprocity has a lot to be said for it.

Airbus builds an A3YZ, the FAA does the certifying. Similarly when Boeing builds a 787-12NG it gets certified by the CAA. Japan brings its planes to the USA etc, and the issuance of the paperwork is then honoured by all parties. A core set of rules could be developed and as it's a fixed scheme then grandfathering would either be minimal or consigned to history. If you want it certifying then put it up for test and pay for it.

That doesn’t solve the issue of grandfathering with is not a US mindset vs EU mindset issue. That is a general manufacturer vs regulator issue. It just means Boeing will get cozy with EASA to ensure favorable grandfathering rules and Airbus will get cozy with FAA to ensure favorable grandfather rules. Neither OEM wants grandfathering to go away because both are benefiting from it. There will also be concerns that the FAA/EASA are purposely stalling certifying the competitor to give the home team manufacturer more time (either to get ahead or catch up).

Honestly the biggest thing is the FAA and EASA just need to stop rubber stamping each other, and together both take a more active role in certifying jets. Perhaps pool resources in a joint certification team/division?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:18 pm

texl1649 wrote:
As AF296 crash at Habsheim showed, along with the MAX crashes the past few months, new flight control software can create real risks when it disempowers pilots (with respect to elevator control in all 3 instances). Was the A320 somehow safer though because it wasn't back then a derivative? No.


You got that wrong. The A320 in Habsheim crashed in a perfect level flight, had the crew have had more elevator authority, they would have just stalled it, and done it in wing tip first.
So instead of everyone initially surviving you had TK1951.

Airbus didn't have the option to grandfather any old no-fly by wire bird in, and hence no incentive to chose the 2nd best solution, just as Boeing avoided fixing the Max aerodynamics and put a half-assed control system in to mask the shortcoming.

Who is to say the same ain't happening on the 777x?

Best regards
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par13del
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:20 pm

Polot wrote:
Honestly the biggest thing is the FAA and EASA just need to stop rubber stamping each other, and together both take a more active role in certifying jets. Perhaps pool resources in a joint certification team/division?

Ok, so if politicians want to use public safety funds for something else, why not split the cost of certifying airplanes among the various national bodies, deal with the bias of only using the USA and EU regulators later. So the limited funds will allow the FAA to do some things and ESA to do others, and when they get too expensive, get other nations bodies involved, since a/c are sold all over the world why not have the entire world vett the a/c?
Will take forever and a day, but I can imagine that would force the OEM's to fork over the additional funds to get it done within their own borders, and since this is all about money, just skin the cat a different way.
 
brons2
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:33 pm

What about the A320Neo? Certified as a derivative?

Granted, less change was required on A32x to add a larger engine, which goes back to the question of, has Boeing taken the 737 as far as it can go? A clean sheet design probably wouldn't have needed supplementary control systems to push the nose down under certain flight conditions.
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Polot
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:37 pm

brons2 wrote:
What about the A320Neo? Certified as a derivative?

Of course, as was the A330Neo and, if Airbus gets their way the A321XLR, any “Neo plus plus” with new wings, re-engined A350, etc.

Like I said before both Airbus and Boeing use grandfathering, and neither want to see it go away. It’s not a big bad FAA allowing grandfathering issue, it’s a lack of proper oversight issue.
 
dopplerd
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:39 pm

I was shocked to read that Boeing told FAA that MCAS max deflection was 0.6° when in reality it was 2.5° and the FAA only found out after Lion Air crash. If that is indicative of the way the Boeing/FAA relationship works then the entire type certificate amendment process needs to see a complete overhaul.
 
texl1649
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:41 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
As AF296 crash at Habsheim showed, along with the MAX crashes the past few months, new flight control software can create real risks when it disempowers pilots (with respect to elevator control in all 3 instances). Was the A320 somehow safer though because it wasn't back then a derivative? No.


You got that wrong. The A320 in Habsheim crashed in a perfect level flight, had the crew have had more elevator authority, they would have just stalled it, and done it in wing tip first.
So instead of everyone initially surviving you had TK1951.

Airbus didn't have the option to grandfather any old no-fly by wire bird in, and hence no incentive to chose the 2nd best solution, just as Boeing avoided fixing the Max aerodynamics and put a half-assed control system in to mask the shortcoming.

Who is to say the same ain't happening on the 777x?

Best regards
Thomas


Well, we can disagree, as they say. The elevators didn't respond to the pilot's input due to the engagement of "Alpha protection mode" which is pretty akin to what Boeing's (flawed) Max ACAS system has been designed to do. I think it's unlikely it would have stalled with TOGA power which was applied/requested by the pilot (if his account is true), as a few feet would have made the difference between skimming the top of the trees vs. ingesting enough debris to kill the engines. In any case, Asseline (the pilot, a Frenchman of course), certainly felt there was blame/fault/fraud in the systems/investigation (and it's interesting the French authorities are also involved in the ET crash, given that France is something like 3 percent of the worlds' GDP).

Not trying to make this an A vs. B thread in any way, but I think it's very important pilots understand thoroughly elevator control automation (aka "fly by wire") and there are similarities in both the Habsheim and ET/Lion crashes in so far as this was...lacking.
 
brons2
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:46 pm

Polot wrote:
it’s a lack of proper oversight issue.


Agreed, and sad to see it hasn't changed that much in 45 years, remember the DC-10 cargo door?
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Pyrex
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:53 pm

One thing I find amusing when something like this happens (in aviation or somewhere else) is the amount of safety experts after the fact. During the development process, while a highly complex piece of machinery is being developed, they sit contently in their parents' basement, but after the fact, with perfect hindsight of what went wrong, everybody is an expert.
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tommy1808
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 2:54 pm

texl1649 wrote:
I think it's unlikely it would have stalled with TOGA power which was applied/requested by the pilot.


When the engines responded to the command it was already to late.

Alpha protection mode" which is pretty akin to what Boeing's


Alpha floor protection was turned of, and is in no way comparable, as it is only an autotrust function.
Alpha protection mode will fly on the edge of stall, not mask the positive feedback loop the new engine position creates on the Max, so also not comparable.

Best regards
Thomas
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StTim
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:02 pm

brons2 wrote:
What about the A320Neo? Certified as a derivative?

Granted, less change was required on A32x to add a larger engine, which goes back to the question of, has Boeing taken the 737 as far as it can go? A clean sheet design probably wouldn't have needed supplementary control systems to push the nose down under certain flight conditions.



There did seem to be a similar amount of test flying for the two programmes (neo and MAX) implying a similar level of change. What we are finding implies that there was more change on the MAX. What that should of meant for the test campaigns I will leave for others!
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:23 pm

Anyone who wants to contribute intelligently to this discussion needs to read and understand this FAA Advisory Circular.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/med ... 101-1B.pdf
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
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Faro
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:25 pm

B777LRF wrote:
But, most of all, the FAA need to bring back in-house the vast majority of authorisations it signed over to Boeing. As has been demonstrated with both the 787 and 737 Max, Boeing are not to be trusted to do their own certification work.



Yes, with the MAX MCAS issue, this can become a serious matter.

Even if we consider that B is 100% competent and honest in its role as (outsourced) certification service provider to the FAA, today with the media spotlight on the certification of the 737 MAX this is not enough.

Both B and the FAA have to be perceived as being competent and honest besides being so in the first place. Outsourcing certain certification tasks to the people whose product is being certified is not an optimal arrangement in this respect.

Appearances now critically matter.


Faro
Last edited by Faro on Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:30 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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GEUltraFan9XGTF
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:27 pm

OldAeroGuy wrote:
Anyone who wants to contribute intelligently to this discussion needs to read and understand this FAA Advisory Circular.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/med ... 101-1B.pdf


Just some light bedtime reading there.
© 2019. All statements are my own. The use of my statements, including by journalists, YouTube vloggers like "DJ's Aviation", etc. without my written consent is strictly prohibited.
 
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Faro
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:34 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:
Anyone who wants to contribute intelligently to this discussion needs to read and understand this FAA Advisory Circular.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/med ... 101-1B.pdf


Just some light bedtime reading there.



A particular quality about US legal and administrative documentation...those tenacious, tireless sentences that go on for half a page in one resolute breath...concentrates the mind wonderfully I find...


Faro
The chalice not my son
 
Elshad
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:36 pm

brons2 wrote:
What about the A320Neo? Certified as a derivative?

Granted, less change was required on A32x to add a larger engine, which goes back to the question of, has Boeing taken the 737 as far as it can go? A clean sheet design probably wouldn't have needed supplementary control systems to push the nose down under certain flight conditions.

Doesn’t the fact that the A320 / A320neo is already fly by wire make it easier to adapt?
 
7673mech
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:39 pm

par13del wrote:
keesje wrote:
Taking a step back, maybe there are enough people with the right skills, but they do not report to the right, independent employer.

No, take a step back and accept that these are human beings who have lives and need jobs. If you want the government to have these employees on staff, then go right ahead and raise taxes on the people so that they can offer a competitive wage and benefit package.


So let Boeing continue to do a horrible at certification? Pay human beings who have lives to half as a job?
On a recent delivery at Boeing the ODA gave my plane an airworthiness certificate. We were good to go, money changed hands, crew on the way, then the real FAA showed up. Took 3 days for Boeing to work through their findings.

No. Better we pay taxes and train our federal employees.
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:41 pm

GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:
Anyone who wants to contribute intelligently to this discussion needs to read and understand this FAA Advisory Circular.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/med ... 101-1B.pdf


Just some light bedtime reading there.


If you don't understand what this document says, you don't understand "grandfathering" and its limitations.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
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zeke
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 3:45 pm

OldAeroGuy wrote:
Anyone who wants to contribute intelligently to this discussion needs to read and understand this FAA Advisory Circular.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/med ... 101-1B.pdf


Have to agree with OAG. Nothing wrong with the established process, it is not a simple rubber stamp and ignore and current regulations.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:13 pm

OldAeroGuy wrote:
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:
Anyone who wants to contribute intelligently to this discussion needs to read and understand this FAA Advisory Circular.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/med ... 101-1B.pdf


Just some light bedtime reading there.


If you don't understand what this document says, you don't understand "grandfathering" and its limitations.


The big question remains if following the rules (Chapter 3), the 777X ended up being allowed to be certified under the 77W certification basis, what happened ?
- Changes are minor (if so for the 777X, anything is apparently minor) ?
- Some one at the FAA wasn't paying attention ?
- Some one at the FAA was actually someone at Boeing & had different goals ?
- The Latest Requirements Contribute nothing Materially to the Level of Safety?

Using this 1996 flowchart roughly modelling the process; how did the 777X end up in the right lower corner instead of the left lower corner ?

Image

I thing is the wings, tail, engines, dimensions & cockpit changed we should have a new TC.
Otherwise the 757 was a 737 really?
Last edited by keesje on Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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seahawk
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:16 pm

In the age of software you can not check everything. If MCAS now operates differently then documented in the certification the blame is on Boeing alone.
 
brons2
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 5:20 pm

StTim wrote:
brons2 wrote:
What about the A320Neo? Certified as a derivative?

Granted, less change was required on A32x to add a larger engine, which goes back to the question of, has Boeing taken the 737 as far as it can go? A clean sheet design probably wouldn't have needed supplementary control systems to push the nose down under certain flight conditions.



There did seem to be a similar amount of test flying for the two programmes (neo and MAX) implying a similar level of change. What we are finding implies that there was more change on the MAX. What that should of meant for the test campaigns I will leave for others!


The change relative to not just the 737-NG or A320, but rather most if not all jet transports is the positioning of the engine relative to the wing.

Seems to me like a machine gun, you know, the more you goose it, the more it tries to lift the nose. :D

Maybe Boeing should reconsider the T-Tail for their clean sheet narrowbody design, if they really want to keep the fuselage closer to the ground. Think of all the A.nut threads you could kill off with that. And maybe even you could do a gravel strip version since the engines would not be so close to the ground. You could finally retire the 732 :D
Firings, if well done, are good for employee morale.
 
texl1649
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:05 pm

Re: 46: they don't 'want to keep the fuselage closer to the ground.' This is an artifact of the design for LH back in the 60's.
 
waly777
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:05 pm

oldannyboy wrote:
I think people need to grow out of this FAA-only bubble kind of mentality.
Thank god there are other certifying bodies who are not only better funded and more technically apt, but to a large degree far more independent than the FAA. Cue the UK CAA and EASA.
I trust that these bodies will both give Boeing and the FAA a run for their money in the 777/8-9 certification, and should they sniff any of the crap that has lead to having to deal with these 300 body bags they will kick up a royal stink.


And yet the 787 and 737 max were both certified by the UK CAA and EASA? so what does that say about their supposedly better funding and technical abilities?
The test of first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold 2 opposed ideas in the mind concurrently, and still function
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:35 pm

keesje wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:
GEUltraFan9XGTF wrote:

Just some light bedtime reading there.


If you don't understand what this document says, you don't understand "grandfathering" and its limitations.


The big question remains if following the rules (Chapter 3), the 777X ended up being allowed to be certified under the 77W certification basis, what happened ?
- Changes are minor (if so for the 777X, anything is apparently minor) ?
- Some one at the FAA wasn't paying attention ?
- Some one at the FAA was actually someone at Boeing & had different goals ?
- The Latest Requirements Contribute nothing Materially to the Level of Safety?

Using this 1996 flowchart roughly modelling the process; how did the 777X end up in the right lower corner instead of the left lower corner ?

Image


I thing is the wings, tail, engines, dimensions & cockpit changed we should have a new TC.
Otherwise the 757 was a 737 really?


Because it's a simplified flow chart. It ignores the conversation that goes on between the certifying agency and the manufacturer about the certification basis.

For instance, if an area has changed but the regulations haven't changed for the area of change, you can still use the original certification basis for the area of change.

This doesn't mean you don't have to test the changed area. The new 777X wing will be required to pass a fatigue test and a structural load test to be certified but that certification may need only pass unchanged parts of the regulations that were in force during the original certification basis.

If there is something radically new, like the folding wing tip, special conditions can be used to certify it. Let's suppose the folding wing tip were the only major change. Would you argue the whole certification basis for the 777X has to change?

If you say the whole certification basis has to change, how would you handle changes in the regulations for production airplanes. Not every regulatory change is safety related. If production modifications had to be made for every regulatory change, the result would be chaos. And what about the inservice fleet? Would they also need to be updated for every regulatory change? If no safety problem is identified, what's the justification for the inservice change based on a regulatory change?

Of course, some changes are mandated for safety. That's why Airworthiness Directives exist. They do change the certification basis.

In truth, the 777X is probably in neither the left nor the right boxes of above chart but some where in the two center boxes.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:40 pm

stratclub wrote:
Revelation wrote:
keesje wrote:
Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

keesje wrote:
On the 777-9, will FAA / DoT have a second look & check for short cuts / efficiency's in the certification process?

keesje wrote:
New fuselage, controls, tail, wings, engines, new cockpit. Is this a 777X or a 7X7?

keesje wrote:
Apart from safety considerations, are there economical drivers that conflict?

To save everyone some time, may I suggest a few references:

Wikipedia wrote:
If the headline asks a question, try answering 'no'. Is This the True Face of Britain's Young? (Sensible reader: No.) Have We Found the Cure for AIDS? (No; or you wouldn't have put the question mark in.) Does This Map Provide the Key for Peace? (Probably not.) A headline with a question mark at the end means, in the vast majority of cases, that the story is tendentious or over-sold. It is often a scare story, or an attempt to elevate some run-of-the-mill piece of reporting into a national controversy and, preferably, a national panic. To a busy journalist hunting for real information a question mark means 'don't bother reading this bit'.

Ref: Betteridge's law of headlines
Ref: Loaded question

Also, any armchair experts that use the term "grandfathering" in regard to derivative aircraft certification have no clue what they are talking about.


Yep, and the 777X has to comply with a lot of new requirements and more current certication amendments than did the 777-300ER. A couple of examples are having to step up to amendment 131 of CFR 25.1322 and comply with the totally new CFR 25.1302. Not sure about 1322 but 1302 is retained by the FAA.

I’m not clear what the OP’s point is here but I’ve observed a lot of anti-Boeing posts.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 6:51 pm

StTim wrote:
brons2 wrote:
What about the A320Neo? Certified as a derivative?

Granted, less change was required on A32x to add a larger engine, which goes back to the question of, has Boeing taken the 737 as far as it can go? A clean sheet design probably wouldn't have needed supplementary control systems to push the nose down under certain flight conditions.



There did seem to be a similar amount of test flying for the two programmes (neo and MAX) implying a similar level of change. What we are finding implies that there was more change on the MAX. What that should of meant for the test campaigns I will leave for others!


Wasn't it ~4000 hours/3 years for the neo vs less than 2000 hours/1.5 years for the max? The max reached 2000 hours about a month after being certified.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
airzona11
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:16 pm

brons2 wrote:
Polot wrote:
it’s a lack of proper oversight issue.


Agreed, and sad to see it hasn't changed that much in 45 years, remember the DC-10 cargo door?


Are you ignoring the staggering safety statistics of flying in the US or flying that the FAA has oversight?
 
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Polot
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Mar 18, 2019 7:19 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
StTim wrote:
brons2 wrote:
What about the A320Neo? Certified as a derivative?

Granted, less change was required on A32x to add a larger engine, which goes back to the question of, has Boeing taken the 737 as far as it can go? A clean sheet design probably wouldn't have needed supplementary control systems to push the nose down under certain flight conditions.



There did seem to be a similar amount of test flying for the two programmes (neo and MAX) implying a similar level of change. What we are finding implies that there was more change on the MAX. What that should of meant for the test campaigns I will leave for others!


Wasn't it ~4000 hours/3 years for the neo vs less than 2000 hours/1.5 years for the max? The max reached 2000 hours about a month after being certified.

Best regards
Thomas

When certified the PW A320neo had 1,076 hrs with PWs https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... ation.html

The CFMs apparently had ~360 hrs on top of that. https://www.mro-network.com/manufacturi ... tification

That 4,000 figure includes the A321neo and both engine options (in total the A320neo family should have more flight testing hours, since it has 2 engine choices rather than 1 which requires some duplicate flying for each engine type).
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