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Eyad89
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:06 pm

ikolkyo wrote:

If you take into account the amount of aircraft produced and hours flown. I think it’s the 777 by a long shot. Especially since the 777’s fatal accidents were all basically external factors. One got shot down(MH17), another one has basically vanished (MH370) and the last one the pilot couldn’t do a basic approach in clear weather (OZ214).

Pretty solid if you ask me.


And the two fatal crashes of A330 were also caused by a pilot's error.

Without turning this thread into another AF447 discussion, you can make your own conclusion as the final report is out there. The frozen pitot tubes didn't cause the crash, it merely caused the autopilot to disengage. The pilot manually stalled the plane and failed to recognized that he did for a long time even though the stall alarms were on. IMO, that's also an external factor as well.

As for A340, it has flown over 20 million hours with zero fatal crashes. Now, you might say that is considerably fewer hours that what the 777 has flown, which is true, but the A340 sample size is pretty big too. You can definitely club it into 'one of the safest planes ever made'.
 
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ikolkyo
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:16 pm

Eyad89 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:

If you take into account the amount of aircraft produced and hours flown. I think it’s the 777 by a long shot. Especially since the 777’s fatal accidents were all basically external factors. One got shot down(MH17), another one has basically vanished (MH370) and the last one the pilot couldn’t do a basic approach in clear weather (OZ214).

Pretty solid if you ask me.


And the two fatal crashes of A330 were also caused by a pilot's error.

Without turning this thread into another AF447 discussion, you can make your own conclusion as the final report is out there. The frozen pitot tubes didn't cause the crash, it merely caused the autopilot to disengage. The pilot manually stalled the plane and failed to recognized that he did for a long time even though the stall alarms were on. IMO, that's also an external factor as well.

As for A340, it has flown over 20 million hours with zero fatal crashes. Now, you might say that is considerably fewer hours that what the 777 has flown, which is true, but the A340 sample size is pretty big too. You can definitely club it into 'one of the safest planes ever made'.


A340 has a large sample size but the 777 has over 4x the amount built. In no way and i saying it’s not a safe aircraft it like plenty of others are extremely safe, especially in this age of aviation. Currently I think the 777 does sit at the top followed by the A330. Again, I think it’s pretty meaningless with how safe flying is today.
 
WPIAeroGuy
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:01 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
WPIAeroGuy wrote:
... sharing components and having a common type certificate
does mean the Max 8 only has to be built to the standards of the 737-100.


did you really itended to say that?
But thank you . This is the correct version.


Quite certain WPIAeroGuy mean't "Doesn't" based on the context. Typos happen - for instance you dropped the 'n' in "intended."

In all seriousness, I would prefer that people who don't have a background in aircraft certification limit their assertions on what is best for aircraft certification. It's really stretching the limits of "armchair engineering" references.


Yes, I should have said “doesn’t.” My bad for posting hastily from my phone.
-WPIAeroGuy
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:48 pm

ikolkyo wrote:
Eyad89 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:

If you take into account the amount of aircraft produced and hours flown. I think it’s the 777 by a long shot. Especially since the 777’s fatal accidents were all basically external factors. One got shot down(MH17), another one has basically vanished (MH370) and the last one the pilot couldn’t do a basic approach in clear weather (OZ214).

Pretty solid if you ask me.


And the two fatal crashes of A330 were also caused by a pilot's error.

Without turning this thread into another AF447 discussion, you can make your own conclusion as the final report is out there. The frozen pitot tubes didn't cause the crash, it merely caused the autopilot to disengage. The pilot manually stalled the plane and failed to recognized that he did for a long time even though the stall alarms were on. IMO, that's also an external factor as well.

As for A340, it has flown over 20 million hours with zero fatal crashes. Now, you might say that is considerably fewer hours that what the 777 has flown, which is true, but the A340 sample size is pretty big too. You can definitely club it into 'one of the safest planes ever made'.


A340 has a large sample size but the 777 has over 4x the amount built. In no way and i saying it’s not a safe aircraft it like plenty of others are extremely safe, especially in this age of aviation. Currently I think the 777 does sit at the top followed by the A330. Again, I think it’s pretty meaningless with how safe flying is today.


I think it would probably shock some people to know that the 737 fleet is probably up there in the statistics where you're approaching some of the failure scenarios that the aircraft is actually expected to have a hull loss.
 
texl1649
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Apr 01, 2019 9:31 pm

Eyad89 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:

If you take into account the amount of aircraft produced and hours flown. I think it’s the 777 by a long shot. Especially since the 777’s fatal accidents were all basically external factors. One got shot down(MH17), another one has basically vanished (MH370) and the last one the pilot couldn’t do a basic approach in clear weather (OZ214).

Pretty solid if you ask me.


And the two fatal crashes of A330 were also caused by a pilot's error.

Without turning this thread into another AF447 discussion, you can make your own conclusion as the final report is out there. The frozen pitot tubes didn't cause the crash, it merely caused the autopilot to disengage. The pilot manually stalled the plane and failed to recognized that he did for a long time even though the stall alarms were on. IMO, that's also an external factor as well.

As for A340, it has flown over 20 million hours with zero fatal crashes. Now, you might say that is considerably fewer hours that what the 777 has flown, which is true, but the A340 sample size is pretty big too. You can definitely club it into 'one of the safest planes ever made'.


The A330/340 are largely the same plane from a safety perspective, and it's interesting to note the pilots failure to recognize a pitot tube error (on AF447) causing a flight control software issue, as in the ET/Lion 737 MAX crashes. Sure, the pilots in the Boeing aircraft had much less time to identify the (horrible) software induced problem, but it is a similarity. Of course, during takeoff one would typically expect maximum attention vs. cruise as well.

I'd stand by the assertion that the 777, with about 1,600 delivered since 1995 and no fatalities related to the design/build of the aircraft, is far and away the safest airliner ever built, from an actuarial standpoint.
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Apr 01, 2019 10:29 pm

texl1649 wrote:
Eyad89 wrote:
ikolkyo wrote:

If you take into account the amount of aircraft produced and hours flown. I think it’s the 777 by a long shot. Especially since the 777’s fatal accidents were all basically external factors. One got shot down(MH17), another one has basically vanished (MH370) and the last one the pilot couldn’t do a basic approach in clear weather (OZ214).

Pretty solid if you ask me.


And the two fatal crashes of A330 were also caused by a pilot's error.

Without turning this thread into another AF447 discussion, you can make your own conclusion as the final report is out there. The frozen pitot tubes didn't cause the crash, it merely caused the autopilot to disengage. The pilot manually stalled the plane and failed to recognized that he did for a long time even though the stall alarms were on. IMO, that's also an external factor as well.

As for A340, it has flown over 20 million hours with zero fatal crashes. Now, you might say that is considerably fewer hours that what the 777 has flown, which is true, but the A340 sample size is pretty big too. You can definitely club it into 'one of the safest planes ever made'.


The A330/340 are largely the same plane from a safety perspective, and it's interesting to note the pilots failure to recognize a pitot tube error (on AF447) causing a flight control software issue, as in the ET/Lion 737 MAX crashes. Sure, the pilots in the Boeing aircraft had much less time to identify the (horrible) software induced problem, but it is a similarity. Of course, during takeoff one would typically expect maximum attention vs. cruise as well.

I'd stand by the assertion that the 777, with about 1,600 delivered since 1995 and no fatalities related to the design/build of the aircraft, is far and away the safest airliner ever built, from an actuarial standpoint.


Agree on your assertion about the 777.

I won’t comment on what I think of the original MCAS design, because I have an opinion, but let’s not forget that Lion Air was foolishly dispatched with a reported AOA problem, and with an AOA sensor that may not have even been an authorized part.

Not saying this was the only fault in the accident, but Lion Air dispatched a non-airworthy airplane with a known sensor flaw that almost caused an accident the day before. Accidents are always a combination of factors. That was one.
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:25 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
I won’t comment on what I think of the original MCAS design, because I have an opinion, but let’s not forget that Lion Air was foolishly dispatched with a reported AOA problem, and with an AOA sensor that may not have even been an authorized part.

You have the spare parts trace on your computer or is there public information available to corroborate that?
Murphy is an optimist
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:23 pm

WIederling wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
I won’t comment on what I think of the original MCAS design, because I have an opinion, but let’s not forget that Lion Air was foolishly dispatched with a reported AOA problem, and with an AOA sensor that may not have even been an authorized part.

You have the spare parts trace on your computer or is there public information available to corroborate that?


I had hear that, but it was unsubstantiated. That’s why I said “may”. However, I’m now reading that Bloomberg public ally reported the part was used and not authorized. I’m also hearing that Lion Air didn’t perform the AMM procedure to calibrate the AOA sensor calibration when it was installed. Further, the crew of the prior flight didn’t report that the stick shaker was going off the entire flight.

Not saying there weren’t other factors in the accident, because we know there are, but apparently the operator didn’t follow proper spares or maintenance procedures thus having an uncalibrated AOA sensor of questionable quality.
 
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zeke
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:33 pm

smartplane wrote:
Boeing and airworthiness experts here advise the 777X doesn't utilise any meaningful (except a compass) grandfathered features, structures, components or systems, from earlier iterations (or even different models), supported by, but not limited to justifications of practicality, experience and/or no material safety changes.


I’m afraid to say Boeing is onnthe public record saying the 777X shares a very high percentage of parts commonality with the 77W.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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zeke
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:40 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
I’m also hearing that Lion Air didn’t perform the AMM procedure to calibrate the AOA sensor calibration when it was installed. Further, the crew of the prior flight didn’t report that the stick shaker was going off the entire flight.


I am going to generous and say your post is misleading.

My understanding is the AOA sensor that was removed has been tested and was within normal tolerances.

The AOA sensors are not calibrated on the aircraft, they are calibrated in specialty avionics shops. My understanding is the AOA that was installed was overhauled in the US on the east coast and had FAA release paperwork.

It is correct that the airline did not calibrate the unit, they are calibrated in the avionics shop.

The screw holes provide the required alignment between the part and the aircraft. There is no way to rotate the part once the holes are aligned.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:45 pm

zeke wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
I’m also hearing that Lion Air didn’t perform the AMM procedure to calibrate the AOA sensor calibration when it was installed. Further, the crew of the prior flight didn’t report that the stick shaker was going off the entire flight.


I am going to generous and say your post is misleading.

My understanding is the AOA sensor that was removed has been tested and was within normal tolerances.

The AOA sensors are not calibrated on the aircraft, they are calibrated in specialty avionics shops. My understanding is the AOA that was installed was overhauled in the US on the east coast and had FAA release paperwork.

It is correct that the airline did not calibrate the unit, they are calibrated in the avionics shop.

The screw holes provide the required alignment between the part and the aircraft. There is no way to rotate the part once the holes are aligned.


What I stated is what I heard by a reliable source. But I’m not an expert in 737 spares and maintenance procedures.

If it was properly maintained, why did the airplane dispatch with such a large AOA sensor error? The error was there when they were sitting on the ground.
Last edited by BoeingGuy on Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:46 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
However, I’m now reading that Bloomberg public ally reported the part was used and not authorized. I’m also hearing that Lion Air didn’t perform the AMM procedure to calibrate the AOA sensor calibration when it was installed. Further, the crew of the prior flight didn’t report that the stick shaker was going off the entire flight.


Lets see what the decay rate of those "truth" is.
( lots of facts helping Boeing haven't survived all that well.)

Boeing is in dear need of "nice facts"
as another tentative line of fact has come up indicating that the ET crew followed Boeing's RTFM addendum produced after the Lion Air crash. They crashed even faster.
Murphy is an optimist
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:49 pm

WIederling wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
However, I’m now reading that Bloomberg public ally reported the part was used and not authorized. I’m also hearing that Lion Air didn’t perform the AMM procedure to calibrate the AOA sensor calibration when it was installed. Further, the crew of the prior flight didn’t report that the stick shaker was going off the entire flight.


Lets see what the decay rate of those "truth" is.
( lots of facts helping Boeing haven't survived all that well.)

Boeing is in dear need of "nice facts"
as another tentative line of fact has come up indicating that the ET crew followed Boeing's RTFM addendum produced after the Lion Air crash. They crashed even faster.


Conversely, a lot of stuff reported in the media and on A.net by anti-Boeing posters has a large decay rate of the truth.

You are also conveniently missing the fact that the ET crew undid the Boeing guidance after a certain point, instead of continuing to follow it.

Are you suggesting that Lion Air properly followed the spares and maintenance procedures for that AOA vane age what I stated is untrue?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bloomb ... epair-shop
 
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zeke
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:27 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
[
If it was properly maintained, why did the airplane dispatch with such a large AOA sensor error? The error was there when they were sitting on the ground.


It has been suggested to me the distinct possibility that both sensors were serviceable, the problem was downstream.

Been suggested to me to look at where the actual pickup for the AOA value is by the FDR.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:46 pm

zeke wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
[
If it was properly maintained, why did the airplane dispatch with such a large AOA sensor error? The error was there when they were sitting on the ground.


It has been suggested to me the distinct possibility that both sensors were serviceable, the problem was downstream.

Been suggested to me to look at where the actual pickup for the AOA value is by the FDR.


Then why was the one sensor in error by something like 30 degrees before the airplane even took off?

3....2.....1.......before this thread is closed for deviating off topic. We’ll probably have to discuss this in another thread.
 
Strato2
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Wed Apr 03, 2019 6:49 pm

texl1649 wrote:
I'd stand by the assertion that the 777, with about 1,600 delivered since 1995 and no fatalities related to the design/build of the aircraft, is far and away the safest airliner ever built, from an actuarial standpoint.


Luckily our assertions don't matter but facts. The fact is BA had the crash at Heathrow that was not deadly just through pure luck. The only planes that have not crashed are the A380, A350 and 787. The 787 is tarnished by the grounding. So the safest aircraft in the skies are the A380 and the A350.
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Wed Apr 03, 2019 7:19 pm

zeke wrote:
smartplane wrote:
Boeing and airworthiness experts here advise the 777X doesn't utilise any meaningful (except a compass) grandfathered features, structures, components or systems, from earlier iterations (or even different models), supported by, but not limited to justifications of practicality, experience and/or no material safety changes.


I’m afraid to say Boeing is onnthe public record saying the 777X shares a very high percentage of parts commonality with the 77W.

Zeke. My post was sarcastic.

Part of the Boeing / FAA negotiations / certification agreement has presumably been to permit fuselage and wing scaling (from 777) AND composite scaling (from 787).

In a prudent world, post-MAX, should both be permitted? If the wing is not negotiable, should the 778 be first cab off the rank with time and cycles in commercial service, or 779 subject to complete new model certification?
 
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zeke
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:02 pm

I don’t have a beef with the grandfather process, it is normal engineering practice to improve rather than reinvent. When you reinvent you introduce new unknowns, improve on an existing product you can incorporate previous lessons.

From an outsider viewpoint it appears to me that Boeing has taken a very different path on the 77X compared to the MAX. The 77X appears to have serious investment in efficiency and quality whereas the MAX just seems like it’s cheap and nasty built for the lowest cost possible.

In my eyes there is not many elegant engineering advances on the MAX, whereas the 77X has got some really neat stuff.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:15 pm

zeke wrote:
I don’t have a beef with the grandfather process, it is normal engineering practice to improve rather than reinvent. When you reinvent you introduce new unknowns, improve on an existing product you can incorporate previous lessons.

From an outsider viewpoint it appears to me that Boeing has taken a very different path on the 77X compared to the MAX. The 77X appears to have serious investment in efficiency and quality whereas the MAX just seems like it’s cheap and nasty built for the lowest cost possible.

In my eyes there is not many elegant engineering advances on the MAX, whereas the 77X has got some really neat stuff.


We finally agree 100% on something. I have my own opinions on recent events.

The 777X will be a nice airplane. I’m pretty familiar with it and the neat stuff you refer to.

Notwithstanding schedule delays and FOD issues, the KC-46 is really a well designed robust airplane too.
 
airzona11
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:25 pm

Strato2 wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
I'd stand by the assertion that the 777, with about 1,600 delivered since 1995 and no fatalities related to the design/build of the aircraft, is far and away the safest airliner ever built, from an actuarial standpoint.


Luckily our assertions don't matter but facts. The fact is BA had the crash at Heathrow that was not deadly just through pure luck. The only planes that have not crashed are the A380, A350 and 787. The 787 is tarnished by the grounding. So the safest aircraft in the skies are the A380 and the A350.


Or the BA 777 not having fatalities (and Asiana - the girls tragically run over were out of the aircraft) is not luck, but a well-built plane.
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:54 pm

zeke wrote:
In my eyes there is not many elegant engineering advances on the MAX, whereas the 77X has got some really neat stuff.


You haven't looked under the lid yet.
By self acclaim the MAX was the culmination of perfection that Airbus could never achieve.
Who would have thought than an ingrown turd like MCAS and its "safer" environment hid inside the 737MAX :-)

All tongue in cheek.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Wed Apr 03, 2019 8:55 pm

The B777's safety record is excellent so far.
The issue being discussed here is whether keeping the same model number justifies using the previous model as a starting point for certification of a new model that has many fundamental differences.

Ie, certifying the B777X as a new version of the B777 is like certifying the A330 or A340 as a new version of the A300 despite fundamnetal differences.

Do we turn a blind eye for new things hat have nothing to do with the original version that is deemed safe?
Is it grandfathering or foolish rubber stamping?
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:08 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
The B777's safety record is excellent so far.
The issue being discussed here is whether keeping the same model number justifies using the previous model as a starting point for certification of a new model that has many fundamental differences.

Ie, certifying the B777X as a new version of the B777 is like certifying the A330 or A340 as a new version of the A300 despite fundamnetal differences.

Do we turn a blind eye for new things hat have nothing to do with the original version that is deemed safe?
Is it grandfathering or foolish rubber stamping?


certified is a function/solution inside of a certain environment.
Any amendment that keeps that certification must not only keep the basic functionality but also the requisite environment.
Murphy is an optimist
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:17 pm

WIederling wrote:
zeke wrote:
In my eyes there is not many elegant engineering advances on the MAX, whereas the 77X has got some really neat stuff.


You haven't looked under the lid yet.
By self acclaim the MAX was the culmination of perfection that Airbus could never achieve.
Who would have thought than an ingrown turd like MCAS and its "safer" environment hid inside the 737MAX :-)

All tongue in cheek.


You and a certain other poster sure spend a lot of time bashing Boeing and trying to degrade their products. I saw this even before the Max issues. Any particular reason why?

When was the last time you saw me attacking Airbus the way you attack Boeing? Should be some food for thought.

BTW, I do know what’s under the hood. The 777X will be a solid airplane.
 
smartplane
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:18 pm

WIederling wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
The B777's safety record is excellent so far.
The issue being discussed here is whether keeping the same model number justifies using the previous model as a starting point for certification of a new model that has many fundamental differences.

Ie, certifying the B777X as a new version of the B777 is like certifying the A330 or A340 as a new version of the A300 despite fundamnetal differences.

Do we turn a blind eye for new things hat have nothing to do with the original version that is deemed safe?
Is it grandfathering or foolish rubber stamping?


certified is a function/solution inside of a certain environment.
Any amendment that keeps that certification must not only keep the basic functionality but also the requisite environment.

But qualified by, within tolerances, which is how for example scaling is permitted. And then the amendment becomes the threshold for the next amendment, which is why the certification trail from the MAX10 ultimately leads back to the 737-100.

At a certain point, variances, either based on time, or scale, or whatever, should be a trigger where a model variation can no longer be permitted to utilise an earlier certification.

Although commercial aviation is phenomenally safe, it does make you wonder how much safer, or easier to use, or fail safe, a new model could be if design wasn't under-pinned by exploiting grandfathering to save money and time. What NG and MAX compromises we don't know about, some of which pilots do know, wouldn't exist?

This affects Boeing and Airbus.
Last edited by smartplane on Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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SierraPacific
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:23 pm

airzona11 wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
texl1649 wrote:
I'd stand by the assertion that the 777, with about 1,600 delivered since 1995 and no fatalities related to the design/build of the aircraft, is far and away the safest airliner ever built, from an actuarial standpoint.


Luckily our assertions don't matter but facts. The fact is BA had the crash at Heathrow that was not deadly just through pure luck. The only planes that have not crashed are the A380, A350 and 787. The 787 is tarnished by the grounding. So the safest aircraft in the skies are the A380 and the A350.


Or the BA 777 not having fatalities (and Asiana - the girls tragically run over were out of the aircraft) is not luck, but a well-built plane.


The BA crash was a well-trained crew that saved the day rather than the aircraft that had both engines quit at the same time.
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:50 am

zeke wrote:
I don’t have a beef with the grandfather process, it is normal engineering practice to improve rather than reinvent. When you reinvent you introduce new unknowns, improve on an existing product you can incorporate previous lessons.


Well stated Zeke. - OAG
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
airzona11
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Thu Apr 04, 2019 4:02 am

SierraPacific wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
Strato2 wrote:

Luckily our assertions don't matter but facts. The fact is BA had the crash at Heathrow that was not deadly just through pure luck. The only planes that have not crashed are the A380, A350 and 787. The 787 is tarnished by the grounding. So the safest aircraft in the skies are the A380 and the A350.


Or the BA 777 not having fatalities (and Asiana - the girls tragically run over were out of the aircraft) is not luck, but a well-built plane.


The BA crash was a well-trained crew that saved the day rather than the aircraft that had both engines quit at the same time.


It still crashed, and the structure held. Asiana flight was the same story. It is a well-built plane.
 
WIederling
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Thu Apr 04, 2019 7:26 am

airzona11 wrote:
It still crashed, and the structure held. Asiana flight was the same story. It is a well-built plane.


And the lurking UI issue has been pushed out of public view .. with care.
I do wonder how many "pilot error" or "obvious pilot suicide"
findings are hiding some real down to earth design defects?
Murphy is an optimist
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Thu Apr 04, 2019 2:08 pm

WIederling wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
It still crashed, and the structure held. Asiana flight was the same story. It is a well-built plane.


And the lurking UI issue has been pushed out of public view .. with care.
I do wonder how many "pilot error" or "obvious pilot suicide"
findings are hiding some real down to earth design defects?


What’s a UI issue? I’m well familiar with the details of OZ. No way was that anything but pilot stupidity. They couldn’t even perform the most basic piloting skills like monitoring their airspeed or flight path.
 
airzona11
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Thu Apr 04, 2019 5:00 pm

WIederling wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
It still crashed, and the structure held. Asiana flight was the same story. It is a well-built plane.


And the lurking UI issue has been pushed out of public view .. with care.
I do wonder how many "pilot error" or "obvious pilot suicide"
findings are hiding some real down to earth design defects?


With context to the 777? Zero.
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:22 pm

airzona11 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
It still crashed, and the structure held. Asiana flight was the same story. It is a well-built plane.


And the lurking UI issue has been pushed out of public view .. with care.
I do wonder how many "pilot error" or "obvious pilot suicide"
findings are hiding some real down to earth design defects?


With context to the 777? Zero.


Scott Hamilton is asking the same question. Apparently instantly blaming the (737) pilots ended up bad before. https://leehamnews.com/2019/04/08/pontifications-remembering-two-other-mysterious-737-accidents/

In a newer article of his hand, the effects of the 737MAX certification investigations on 777X certification process are discussed. But it is behind paywall. https://leehamnews.com/2019/04/08/how-will-max-recertification-affect-future-airplanes/
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:52 pm

keesje wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
WIederling wrote:

And the lurking UI issue has been pushed out of public view .. with care.
I do wonder how many "pilot error" or "obvious pilot suicide"
findings are hiding some real down to earth design defects?


With context to the 777? Zero.


Scott Hamilton is asking the same question. Apparently instantly blaming the (737) pilots ended up bad before. https://leehamnews.com/2019/04/08/pontifications-remembering-two-other-mysterious-737-accidents/

In a newer article of his hand, the effects of the 737MAX certification investigations on 777X certification process are discussed. But it is behind paywall. https://leehamnews.com/2019/04/08/how-will-max-recertification-affect-future-airplanes/


I’m not aware that Boeing is blaming the pilots on the 737 Max crashes. Do you have different information?

I do agree on US427. That was BS. Right, the F/O panicked and has his foot stomped down on the rudder pedal the whole way down. Sure.
 
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keesje
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:44 pm

Early on (Lionair) questions were asked on pilots being adequately trained, operating the autopilot system. They should have simply cut it off in case of any trim malfunction. That was not long ago.. legal language was used, suggestive words used. Boeing found out the bigger public didn't accept this approach & the FAA itself and the process became under high international pressure. That let to Muilenburgs latest statement.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 7:53 pm

keesje wrote:
Early on (Lionair) questions were asked on pilots being adequately trained, operating the autopilot system. They should have simply cut it off in case of any trim malfunction. That was not long ago.. legal language was used, suggestive words used. Boeing found out the bigger public didn't accept this approach & the FAA itself and the process became under high international pressure. That let to Muilenburgs latest statement.


You’re aware that MCAS didn’t function when the autopilot is on.

There are questions about the maintenance and qualification of the AOA probe though for Lionair. My understanding is the airplane was not technically airworthy but they dispatched it anyway.
 
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:20 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
keesje wrote:
Early on (Lionair) questions were asked on pilots being adequately trained, operating the autopilot system. They should have simply cut it off in case of any trim malfunction. That was not long ago.. legal language was used, suggestive words used. Boeing found out the bigger public didn't accept this approach & the FAA itself and the process became under high international pressure. That let to Muilenburgs latest statement.


You’re aware that MCAS didn’t function when the autopilot is on.

There are questions about the maintenance and qualification of the AOA probe though for Lionair. My understanding is the airplane was not technically airworthy but they dispatched it anyway.


I meant triming system. But as you understand it is more and more a process, objectivity and interpretation problem. Grandfathering requirements and design is in some cases justified, in some cases not. There is a grey area. Time and competitive pressure might have determined choices in the certification process. And compromized it.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:31 pm

keesje wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
keesje wrote:
Early on (Lionair) questions were asked on pilots being adequately trained, operating the autopilot system. They should have simply cut it off in case of any trim malfunction. That was not long ago.. legal language was used, suggestive words used. Boeing found out the bigger public didn't accept this approach & the FAA itself and the process became under high international pressure. That let to Muilenburgs latest statement.


You’re aware that MCAS didn’t function when the autopilot is on.

There are questions about the maintenance and qualification of the AOA probe though for Lionair. My understanding is the airplane was not technically airworthy but they dispatched it anyway.


I meant triming system. But as you understand it is more and more a process, objectivity and interpretation problem. Grandfathering requirements and design is in some cases justified, in some cases not. There is a grey area. Time and competitive pressure might have determined choices in the certification process. And compromized it.


Every Boeing airplane from the beginning of time has the same memory item procedure to turn off the Stab Cutout Switches in the event of an airplane from problem. The 777 and 787 have it. It’s one of the most basic things every Boeing pilot is taught.

Further, they could have continued to counteract it by trimming in the opposite direction as the Lionair captain had been doing until he handed control to the F/O.

However, that’s not the topic of this thread. Myself and others have pointed out how much the 777X will have to step up to new FAR requirements. Everything that is changed from the 777-300ER, which is a lot. Some people seem to be overlooking those facts and continuing on a pointless crusade against the 777X cert basis, which is not factually accurate.
 
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Wed Apr 10, 2019 3:38 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
However, that’s not the topic of this thread. Myself and others have pointed out how much the 777X will have to step up to new FAR requirements. Everything that is changed from the 777-300ER, which is a lot. Some people seem to be overlooking those facts and continuing on a pointless crusade against the 777X cert basis, which is not factually accurate.


It seems to me some people are defensive. How come automatic trimming / MCAS operates on just 1 sensor on the MAX, while the 777 has 3 sensors? Maybe grandfathered requirements? It's not a crusade against the 777.

Boeing themselves and the FAA have installed committees to review the overall certification process, including but not exclusively the 737MAX. It's good they will get external help with this, to ensure independence and objectivity.

Back on topic, It's clear how the FAA thought on grandfathered certification requirements in 2000. It is clear what they decided in 2014. And while it's not all that black & white, let's see if they update their grandfather rights policies in 2020, together with independent authorities.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon May 13, 2019 11:50 am

The FAA set the requirements for wing tip certification a year ago, after they were developed.

The US Federal Aviation Administration is set to publish a final list of 10 special conditions on certificating the airworthiness of Boeing’s unique folding wingtips for the 777X family.

The list of 10 requirements will be published in the Federal Register on 18 May, even as Boeing has started building the wings for the first four 777X test aircraft in Everett, Washington.


Boeing had been working with the FAA for years on it.

In a response to FlightGlobal, Boeing says the company has worked with the FAA for several years on developing the special condition for the folding wingtip.

“As with any critical airplane systems, like flight controls, fuel systems, or brakes, Boeing uses a hazard class determination for certain extremely improbable airplane level failure events to drive the appropriate high-integrity system architectures, design redundancies, and safety features to preclude such events,” Boeing says. “This same safety and certification methodology was used with our new folding wing tip to ensure a robust systems architecture with mechanical and electrical redundancy, high integrity control and monitoring architecture, and structural fail-safe load paths from wing tip to fixed wing.”


https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/faa-sets-certification-rules-for-777x-wingtip-448708/

Is it the way of the future, developing aircraft and then authorities setting requirements? I wonder if the FAA authorities in this case were really mostly Boeing employees and they where under time pressure. Maybe it is better this way and we shouldn't really discuss, speculate, even ask. :scared:
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon May 13, 2019 3:08 pm

You're confusing the Rule Making process with the AR Certification process.

At no time has the FAA delegated Rule Making to any OEM.
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon May 13, 2019 3:23 pm

OldAeroGuy wrote:
You're confusing the Rule Making process with the AR Certification process.

At no time has the FAA delegated Rule Making to any OEM.


That's interesting. Which requirements were these wing devices designed and pre certified against ? When the conditions on certificating the airworthiness were made by Boeing working with the FAA, apparently after typical pdr & cdr's? Those can't have been grandfathered from the 77W so must have be an entirely new set of requirements.

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https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... next-year/
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OldAeroGuy
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon May 13, 2019 9:44 pm

Boeing applied for an amended 777 type certificate to cover the 777-9 on May 12, 2015. The folding tip was included in the application.

As is usual for airplanes with "novel or unusual features" that might not be covered by existing regulations, the FAA issued a set of Special Conditions on June 18, 2018. "Grandfathering" would never have been an issue as the 777-9 CRP wing is completely different than the previous 777 wings were primarily aluminum.

https://www.federalregister.gov/documen ... g-wingtips

The FAA Special Conditions probably held few surprises for Boeing since the original 777 Type Certificate application also covered a folding wing tip.

Special Conditions are a standard FAA certification process tool. Here are the FAA Special Conditions for the A320 FBW system.

https://lessonslearned.faa.gov/IndianAi ... dition.pdf
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Mon May 13, 2019 10:02 pm

OldAeroGuy wrote:

Special Conditions are a standard FAA certification process tool. Here are the FAA Special Conditions for the A320 FBW system.


Regulations always seem to lag behind the current technology, we see special conditions in systems, structures, power plants. Industry is always looking for a few percent better performance, and this is done by using cutting edge technology.

The largest set of special conditions I have seen in recent years related to the networks and modular avionics which is the heart of all modern designs.
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Tue May 14, 2019 12:28 am

One of the things I have learned in my 68 years on this planet is that governments, by their very nature, are fundamentally incapable of competence. EVERYTHING is political and politicized. Hiring is almost never done on the basis of actual job skills, because you start with politicians who hire their cronies. And since they are often incompetent in the job they are supposed to do, their primary objective in hiring is to hire people who won’t show them up. And so on down the ladder. And you expect this system to actually find and hire people who actually know about airplanes and air safety? And then give them the authority to actually do their jobs? Dream on.
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Tue May 14, 2019 5:18 am

OldAeroGuy wrote:
Boeing applied for an amended 777 type certificate to cover the 777-9 on May 12, 2015. The folding tip was included in the application.

As is usual for airplanes with "novel or unusual features" that might not be covered by existing regulations, the FAA issued a set of Special Conditions on June 18, 2018. "Grandfathering" would never have been an issue as the 777-9 CRP wing is completely different than the previous 777 wings were primarily aluminum.

Surely the fact Boeing applied for a supplemental rather than a new type certificate highlights the degree of grandfathering applied to the X?

FAA has delegated compliance responsibility to Boeing. So Boeing determines what has changed / not changed, and whether the change magnitude is reportable or not. Call me a cynic, but flagging the tips was obvious. What hasn't been highlighted to the FAA?

Will there be elements of 787 precedents / grandfathering used for the X, for example in relation to wing design / construction, ignoring the folding tips?
Last edited by smartplane on Tue May 14, 2019 5:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Tue May 14, 2019 5:20 am

SEPilot wrote:
One of the things I have learned in my 68 years on this planet is that governments, by their very nature, are fundamentally incapable of competence. EVERYTHING is political and politicized. Hiring is almost never done on the basis of actual job skills, because you start with politicians who hire their cronies. And since they are often incompetent in the job they are supposed to do, their primary objective in hiring is to hire people who won’t show them up. And so on down the ladder. And you expect this system to actually find and hire people who actually know about airplanes and air safety? And then give them the authority to actually do their jobs? Dream on.


Have you ever worked for a government? This is a very broad-brush insult to many thousands of dedicated public servants, many of whom get paid much less than they could make in the private sector because they find public service rewarding.

Just like business organizations, government organizations can become dysfunctional. But many of them are not. If you are 68, you are getting your Social Security payments week in and week out, from one of the lowest-overhead bureaucracies on the planet. The IRS keeps on finding a way to process your return on time year after year despite a 40% drop in funding per capita over the last decade. And the FAA still runs the safest air travel system on the planet, even at the same time it's suffering a black eye over flaws in the certification process.
 
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Tue May 14, 2019 6:31 am

smartplane wrote:
OldAeroGuy wrote:
Boeing applied for an amended 777 type certificate to cover the 777-9 on May 12, 2015. The folding tip was included in the application.

As is usual for airplanes with "novel or unusual features" that might not be covered by existing regulations, the FAA issued a set of Special Conditions on June 18, 2018. "Grandfathering" would never have been an issue as the 777-9 CRP wing is completely different than the previous 777 wings were primarily aluminum.

Surely the fact Boeing applied for a supplemental rather than a new type certificate highlights the degree of grandfathering applied to the X?

FAA has delegated compliance responsibility to Boeing. So Boeing determines what has changed / not changed, and whether the change magnitude is reportable or not. Call me a cynic, but flagging the tips was obvious. What hasn't been highlighted to the FAA?

Will there be elements of 787 precedents / grandfathering used for the X, for example in relation to wing design / construction, ignoring the folding tips?


This last post is not totally correct and misreported in both the media and on A.net. The FAA doesn’t completely delegate compliance to Boeing. Many FARs are retained by the FAA. For example 25.1302 is retained by the FAA. CFR 25.1322 was retained by the FAA on the KC-46 program.

Boeing does NOT determine what is changed. Boeing and the FAA will negotiate the certification basis and the FAA will use the Change Product Rule to decide what systems are unchanged. In many cases the FAA will hold Boeing’s feet to the fire and make them step up to a newer FAR amendment even if Boeing proposes keeping the older one (which by the way still resulted in the very safe 777-300ER).

For those FARs delegated to Boeing, the ARs still have to write a report and submit it to the FAA showing how they found compliance.

It’s not like Boeing just flies away the 777X and tells the FAA that Boeing certified it and have a nice day, like many second rate reporters and participants here seem to think.

The amount of dramatization and distorted and false information being reported in the media and A.net on these recent issues is astounding. But apparently the facts don’t make a good story.
 
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Tue May 14, 2019 12:46 pm

smartplane wrote:
Will there be elements of 787 precedents / grandfathering used for the X, for example in relation to wing design / construction, ignoring the folding tips?


Please give an example of what you're talking about. How can something used on one model's Type Certificate (TC) be "grandfathered" to another model's TC?

The 777-9 wing is a new article with or without the folding tips. As such, it will be required to step up to the FAR level in place when its amended TC application was filed.
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Weatherwatcher1
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Tue May 14, 2019 2:06 pm

OldAeroGuy wrote:
smartplane wrote:
Will there be elements of 787 precedents / grandfathering used for the X, for example in relation to wing design / construction, ignoring the folding tips?


Please give an example of what you're talking about. How can something used on one model's Type Certificate (TC) be "grandfathered" to another model's TC?

The 777-9 wing is a new article with or without the folding tips. As such, it will be required to step up to the FAR level in place when its amended TC application was filed.


Engineering re-use is extremely common in aviation.

This whole conversation about “grandfathering” doesn’t make any sense when it comes down to definitions certification requirements. I haven’t seen anyone in this thread who is using the term “grandfathering” actually define if it is for a new type certificate, supplemental type certificate or amended type certificate.
 
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Re: Boeing 777-8/-9 Grandfathering Certification, 777X or 7X7?

Tue May 14, 2019 2:44 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
This whole conversation about “grandfathering” doesn’t make any sense when it comes down to definitions certification requirements. I haven’t seen anyone in this thread who is using the term “grandfathering” actually define if it is for a new type certificate, supplemental type certificate or amended type certificate.

That's because the thread was created on the basis of creating FUD (fear, uncertainty, doubt) about the 777.

Things get mighty quiet when you ask for definitions of grandfathering, or ask why what 777X is different than, say what A330neo just did, or what A321XLR intends to do in the near future, or what A350neo or the various A322 proposals intend to do in the longer term future.
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