Motorhussy
Posts: 3614
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:49 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:27 am

NZ6 wrote:
aerorobnz wrote:
They should split the transport plane from the VIP. Just get a second-hand Global express ot G550 for around 15mill and configure it to your own requirements. If they still want a second use of the VIP, make it configurable as a MediVac aircraft at short notice


I can't see the NZ public accepting the purchase of specialist VIP aircraft for Defence Chiefs or Diplomates.

I cannot think of anyone important enough in NZ to use a private jet like this, the PM flies frequently on commercial services with members of the DPS. Foreign leaders who need this type of transport typically supply their own, we've seen this with the US President.

There are times when the Defence flies large groups of dignitaries around, the same aircraft can transport smaller groups but along with this, transporting large groups of Defence personnel is where you can start justifying the multi-use aircraft.

For larger groups, look at the leases NZ has done with the Singapore Defence for many years. Flying troops between SIN-ROC for training.

As for timelines, it's at the backend of a decade away, without delays etc which will inevitably occur....

Page 30 of the Defence Capability Plan 2019
https://defence.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/ ... n-2019.pdf

Future Strategic Air Mobility
179. Operations in the Pacific and globally will require an air transport option for the movement of personnel, equipment and stores over long ranges. The eventual withdrawal from service of the current Boeing 757 fleet will allow for the procurement of a strategic airlift capability that meets capability requirements across a range of tasks.

Indicative dates:
Industry engagement commences – 2021
Request for tender – 2024
Introduction into Service – 2028
Indicative capital cost:
From $300m–$600m


There is very regular need for small delegations of VIP and Govt staffers, and occasionally accompanied by media, for travelling to various places around the globe, and regularly around the Pacific. The 757’s are regularly abused for this purpose as they end up with far fewer people than they’re capable of carrying. Also, they’re too big or not suited for runways in Kiribati and Tuvalu etc. A smaller plane makes sense. And when you picture VIP, don’t picture luxury, it wouldn’t be like that in a New Zealand govt configuration.
come visit the south pacific
 
NZ6
Posts: 1228
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:10 pm

Motorhussy wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
aerorobnz wrote:
They should split the transport plane from the VIP. Just get a second-hand Global express ot G550 for around 15mill and configure it to your own requirements. If they still want a second use of the VIP, make it configurable as a MediVac aircraft at short notice


I can't see the NZ public accepting the purchase of specialist VIP aircraft for Defence Chiefs or Diplomates.

I cannot think of anyone important enough in NZ to use a private jet like this, the PM flies frequently on commercial services with members of the DPS. Foreign leaders who need this type of transport typically supply their own, we've seen this with the US President.

There are times when the Defence flies large groups of dignitaries around, the same aircraft can transport smaller groups but along with this, transporting large groups of Defence personnel is where you can start justifying the multi-use aircraft.

For larger groups, look at the leases NZ has done with the Singapore Defence for many years. Flying troops between SIN-ROC for training.

As for timelines, it's at the backend of a decade away, without delays etc which will inevitably occur....

Page 30 of the Defence Capability Plan 2019
https://defence.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/ ... n-2019.pdf

Future Strategic Air Mobility
179. Operations in the Pacific and globally will require an air transport option for the movement of personnel, equipment and stores over long ranges. The eventual withdrawal from service of the current Boeing 757 fleet will allow for the procurement of a strategic airlift capability that meets capability requirements across a range of tasks.

Indicative dates:
Industry engagement commences – 2021
Request for tender – 2024
Introduction into Service – 2028
Indicative capital cost:
From $300m–$600m


There is very regular need for small delegations of VIP and Govt staffers, and occasionally accompanied by media, for travelling to various places around the globe, and regularly around the Pacific. The 757’s are regularly abused for this purpose as they end up with far fewer people than they’re capable of carrying. Also, they’re too big or not suited for runways in Kiribati and Tuvalu etc. A smaller plane makes sense. And when you picture VIP, don’t picture luxury, it wouldn’t be like that in a New Zealand govt configuration.


So let's purchase a G550 so we can fly to Kiribati and Tuvalu once in a blue moon?

I wouldn't call the 757 as being abused, it's an aircraft the Defence has which is multi-use and is more versatile than smaller 'Private Jet' type options.

While I'm sure the Airforce would find a use for such an aircraft, is such an aircraft going to improve New Zealand's capability or response to any range of events? The answer is not really, it's only going to be at the expense of funding elsewhere in the Defence budget and go towards an aircraft with more limited use than it's larger sister in the 757.

My understanding is, a large portion of 757 flying time is 'exercise' or 'training' flying over operational and/or actual airforce logistics flying. Wouldn't this just be smaller again given it's specific and specialised use?
 
Motorhussy
Posts: 3614
Joined: Thu Mar 30, 2000 7:49 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:31 pm

NZ6 wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:
NZ6 wrote:

I can't see the NZ public accepting the purchase of specialist VIP aircraft for Defence Chiefs or Diplomates.

I cannot think of anyone important enough in NZ to use a private jet like this, the PM flies frequently on commercial services with members of the DPS. Foreign leaders who need this type of transport typically supply their own, we've seen this with the US President.

There are times when the Defence flies large groups of dignitaries around, the same aircraft can transport smaller groups but along with this, transporting large groups of Defence personnel is where you can start justifying the multi-use aircraft.

For larger groups, look at the leases NZ has done with the Singapore Defence for many years. Flying troops between SIN-ROC for training.

As for timelines, it's at the backend of a decade away, without delays etc which will inevitably occur....

Page 30 of the Defence Capability Plan 2019
https://defence.govt.nz/assets/Uploads/ ... n-2019.pdf



There is very regular need for small delegations of VIP and Govt staffers, and occasionally accompanied by media, for travelling to various places around the globe, and regularly around the Pacific. The 757’s are regularly abused for this purpose as they end up with far fewer people than they’re capable of carrying. Also, they’re too big or not suited for runways in Kiribati and Tuvalu etc. A smaller plane makes sense. And when you picture VIP, don’t picture luxury, it wouldn’t be like that in a New Zealand govt configuration.


So let's purchase a G550 so we can fly to Kiribati and Tuvalu once in a blue moon?

I wouldn't call the 757 as being abused, it's an aircraft the Defence has which is multi-use and is more versatile than smaller 'Private Jet' type options.

While I'm sure the Airforce would find a use for such an aircraft, is such an aircraft going to improve New Zealand's capability or response to any range of events? The answer is not really, it's only going to be at the expense of funding elsewhere in the Defence budget and go towards an aircraft with more limited use than it's larger sister in the 757.

My understanding is, a large portion of 757 flying time is 'exercise' or 'training' flying over operational and/or actual airforce logistics flying. Wouldn't this just be smaller again given it's specific and specialised use?


Once in a blue moon? You’re a very frustrating person to respond to and to be honest, a little tiresome. As I said previously a smaller more purposeful aircraft would allow flights into limited fields as well as the multitude of other areas.
come visit the south pacific
 
NZ6
Posts: 1228
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:48 pm

Motorhussy wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
Motorhussy wrote:

There is very regular need for small delegations of VIP and Govt staffers, and occasionally accompanied by media, for travelling to various places around the globe, and regularly around the Pacific. The 757’s are regularly abused for this purpose as they end up with far fewer people than they’re capable of carrying. Also, they’re too big or not suited for runways in Kiribati and Tuvalu etc. A smaller plane makes sense. And when you picture VIP, don’t picture luxury, it wouldn’t be like that in a New Zealand govt configuration.


So let's purchase a G550 so we can fly to Kiribati and Tuvalu once in a blue moon?

I wouldn't call the 757 as being abused, it's an aircraft the Defence has which is multi-use and is more versatile than smaller 'Private Jet' type options.

While I'm sure the Airforce would find a use for such an aircraft, is such an aircraft going to improve New Zealand's capability or response to any range of events? The answer is not really, it's only going to be at the expense of funding elsewhere in the Defence budget and go towards an aircraft with more limited use than it's larger sister in the 757.

My understanding is, a large portion of 757 flying time is 'exercise' or 'training' flying over operational and/or actual airforce logistics flying. Wouldn't this just be smaller again given it's specific and specialised use?


Once in a blue moon? You’re a very frustrating person to respond to and to be honest, a little tiresome. As I said previously a smaller more purposeful aircraft would allow flights into limited fields as well as the multitude of other areas.


Well, I find many ideas here frustrating and little tiresome too. Looking the size of our defence, it's budget, how frequently these flights occur, what alternatives are available vs where else the funding can go - can't fathom why we'd want to or need to buy a G550??

By all means, if you disagree with me, discuss the topic if you want, I'd be keen to see how you'd justify the spend and use this aircraft outside of a few rare diplomatic visits where commercial flights aren't an option.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
Posts: 944
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:20 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:29 pm

I think the only way a dedicated government plane could be accepted by the populace as a whole is if it's made super clear that it's cheaper to have a dedicated plane for such things. Compared to using the B757 or chartering planes from someone like Air NZ. You'd also want to go to lengths to show that the interior of the aircraft is outfitted like a normal passenger plane. No wood veneers or gold plated taps. ;)

Something like the UK did when kitting out an A330 for government use.

If needed I think the NZ populace could reasonably accept something like a B737 BBJ operated by the Air Force for all of government passenger use. Anything bigger would have to be a combi to make it clear that it isn't just for carting around ministers and press.

Another option would be to get an extra replacement plane for the strategic airlift and have one on rotation as the primary governmental plane. With the seats on pallets to be rolled in and out as needed like the B757. That would also be acceptable to most as well I think.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1228
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:33 am

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
I think the only way a dedicated government plane could be accepted by the populace as a whole is if it's made super clear that it's cheaper to have a dedicated plane for such things. Compared to using the B757 or chartering planes from someone like Air NZ. You'd also want to go to lengths to show that the interior of the aircraft is outfitted like a normal passenger plane. No wood veneers or gold plated taps. ;)

Something like the UK did when kitting out an A330 for government use.

If needed I think the NZ populace could reasonably accept something like a B737 BBJ operated by the Air Force for all of government passenger use. Anything bigger would have to be a combi to make it clear that it isn't just for carting around ministers and press.

Another option would be to get an extra replacement plane for the strategic airlift and have one on rotation as the primary governmental plane. With the seats on pallets to be rolled in and out as needed like the B757. That would also be acceptable to most as well I think.


I completely agree with you. However, this is where my point of view comes from. It won't be cheaper overall.

I mean, if we compare a 757 vs a G550 on a Pacific Island run for 10 people it may very well be cheaper, I don't know the economics of such an aircraft to confirm that. However, it's a bit more than that, you'd need the whole parts warehouse set up, engineers, aircrew, training setup and that'd be costly for what I would assume it a single frame for limited use, perhaps a second frame. There lies another issue. it's all well a good flying VIP's into places, you'd still need a backup.

While it will be costly to run the 757 on some of these legs, it also provides a valuable training exercise for the crew and puts hours into log book while also conducting an operational mission.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
Posts: 944
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:20 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:37 am

NZ6 wrote:
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
I think the only way a dedicated government plane could be accepted by the populace as a whole is if it's made super clear that it's cheaper to have a dedicated plane for such things. Compared to using the B757 or chartering planes from someone like Air NZ. You'd also want to go to lengths to show that the interior of the aircraft is outfitted like a normal passenger plane. No wood veneers or gold plated taps. ;)

Something like the UK did when kitting out an A330 for government use.

If needed I think the NZ populace could reasonably accept something like a B737 BBJ operated by the Air Force for all of government passenger use. Anything bigger would have to be a combi to make it clear that it isn't just for carting around ministers and press.

Another option would be to get an extra replacement plane for the strategic airlift and have one on rotation as the primary governmental plane. With the seats on pallets to be rolled in and out as needed like the B757. That would also be acceptable to most as well I think.


I completely agree with you. However, this is where my point of view comes from. It won't be cheaper overall.

I mean, if we compare a 757 vs a G550 on a Pacific Island run for 10 people it may very well be cheaper, I don't know the economics of such an aircraft to confirm that. However, it's a bit more than that, you'd need the whole parts warehouse set up, engineers, aircrew, training setup and that'd be costly for what I would assume it a single frame for limited use, perhaps a second frame. There lies another issue. it's all well a good flying VIP's into places, you'd still need a backup.

While it will be costly to run the 757 on some of these legs, it also provides a valuable training exercise for the crew and puts hours into log book while also conducting an operational mission.


That's part of why I think it'd be more likely for a 3rd strategic airlift aircraft to be purchased to cover that stuff. As the one off costs would already be covered. Though for something like a BBJ1 it's entirely possible you'd end up with something leased from a third party who handles all the maintenance and availability of the hardware while the RNZAF just flies it. A few options exist and will probably be looked at I expect.
 
torin
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 7:53 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Thu Jun 13, 2019 5:09 am

NZ6 wrote:
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
I think the only way a dedicated government plane could be accepted by the populace as a whole is if it's made super clear that it's cheaper to have a dedicated plane for such things. Compared to using the B757 or chartering planes from someone like Air NZ. You'd also want to go to lengths to show that the interior of the aircraft is outfitted like a normal passenger plane. No wood veneers or gold plated taps. ;)

Something like the UK did when kitting out an A330 for government use.

If needed I think the NZ populace could reasonably accept something like a B737 BBJ operated by the Air Force for all of government passenger use. Anything bigger would have to be a combi to make it clear that it isn't just for carting around ministers and press.

Another option would be to get an extra replacement plane for the strategic airlift and have one on rotation as the primary governmental plane. With the seats on pallets to be rolled in and out as needed like the B757. That would also be acceptable to most as well I think.


I completely agree with you. However, this is where my point of view comes from. It won't be cheaper overall.

I mean, if we compare a 757 vs a G550 on a Pacific Island run for 10 people it may very well be cheaper, I don't know the economics of such an aircraft to confirm that. However, it's a bit more than that, you'd need the whole parts warehouse set up, engineers, aircrew, training setup and that'd be costly for what I would assume it a single frame for limited use, perhaps a second frame. There lies another issue. it's all well a good flying VIP's into places, you'd still need a backup.

While it will be costly to run the 757 on some of these legs, it also provides a valuable training exercise for the crew and puts hours into log book while also conducting an operational mission.


But have you seen what the government spends on travel? Theres been times they've wanted to use the 757 but couldn't so went commercial and surely at a higher price. I've seen some of the spends and it would HAVE to be cheaper to operated a GV or something similar.

Something like this could be really good for pacific operations and surely convertible for medevacs

https://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=1100&tid=400&ct=1

Or this - spares would already be in the country with the number of 737's operating here an NZ's maintenance operations with them

https://www.boeing.com/defense/c-40a/
 
tu2130
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Apr 03, 2019 9:41 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:26 am

ZK-OXB retiring? Most likely. Cause I had a look at some A320s and ZK-OXB had Christchurch to Christchurch flight could this domestic A320 leave for the new Neos and A320NEOS?
Air New Zealand. Proud to fly.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7025
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:05 am

tu2130 wrote:
ZK-OXB retiring? Most likely. Cause I had a look at some A320s and ZK-OXB had Christchurch to Christchurch flight could this domestic A320 leave for the new Neos and A320NEOS?


No, must have been out for maintenance that required a test flight. The first domestic A320s to leave would likely be ZK-OAB, OJQ, OJR, OJS when the leases expire I believe in the early 2020s.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
Posts: 944
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:20 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:44 am

torin wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
I think the only way a dedicated government plane could be accepted by the populace as a whole is if it's made super clear that it's cheaper to have a dedicated plane for such things. Compared to using the B757 or chartering planes from someone like Air NZ. You'd also want to go to lengths to show that the interior of the aircraft is outfitted like a normal passenger plane. No wood veneers or gold plated taps. ;)

Something like the UK did when kitting out an A330 for government use.

If needed I think the NZ populace could reasonably accept something like a B737 BBJ operated by the Air Force for all of government passenger use. Anything bigger would have to be a combi to make it clear that it isn't just for carting around ministers and press.

Another option would be to get an extra replacement plane for the strategic airlift and have one on rotation as the primary governmental plane. With the seats on pallets to be rolled in and out as needed like the B757. That would also be acceptable to most as well I think.


I completely agree with you. However, this is where my point of view comes from. It won't be cheaper overall.

I mean, if we compare a 757 vs a G550 on a Pacific Island run for 10 people it may very well be cheaper, I don't know the economics of such an aircraft to confirm that. However, it's a bit more than that, you'd need the whole parts warehouse set up, engineers, aircrew, training setup and that'd be costly for what I would assume it a single frame for limited use, perhaps a second frame. There lies another issue. it's all well a good flying VIP's into places, you'd still need a backup.

While it will be costly to run the 757 on some of these legs, it also provides a valuable training exercise for the crew and puts hours into log book while also conducting an operational mission.


But have you seen what the government spends on travel? Theres been times they've wanted to use the 757 but couldn't so went commercial and surely at a higher price. I've seen some of the spends and it would HAVE to be cheaper to operated a GV or something similar.

Something like this could be really good for pacific operations and surely convertible for medevacs

https://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=1100&tid=400&ct=1

Or this - spares would already be in the country with the number of 737's operating here an NZ's maintenance operations with them

https://www.boeing.com/defense/c-40a/


The optics of a small private jet aircraft in the NZ media will make it a non starter for any of the major parties. A larger combi will at least fly with the public due to its clear dual purpose and apparent lack of creature comforts. Especially if it's shown to be cheaper to operate than charter a commercial plane. And just because they flew commercial doesn't mean it has to be more expensive. If planned far enough ahead it probably isn't too bad for scheduled stuff. The expense likely comes when they need to charter a whole plane as airlines don't tend to have much in the way of spare capacity anymore. And when the government needs lots of seats now. In those cases adding a third strategic transport airframe could be shown to be an upfront investment to save long term money. And I expect the government of the day to seriously consider that option.
 
Whoopeecock
Posts: 25
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 8:35 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:43 am

torin wrote:
NZ6 wrote:
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
I think the only way a dedicated government plane could be accepted by the populace as a whole is if it's made super clear that it's cheaper to have a dedicated plane for such things. Compared to using the B757 or chartering planes from someone like Air NZ. You'd also want to go to lengths to show that the interior of the aircraft is outfitted like a normal passenger plane. No wood veneers or gold plated taps. ;)

Something like the UK did when kitting out an A330 for government use.

If needed I think the NZ populace could reasonably accept something like a B737 BBJ operated by the Air Force for all of government passenger use. Anything bigger would have to be a combi to make it clear that it isn't just for carting around ministers and press.

Another option would be to get an extra replacement plane for the strategic airlift and have one on rotation as the primary governmental plane. With the seats on pallets to be rolled in and out as needed like the B757. That would also be acceptable to most as well I think.


I completely agree with you. However, this is where my point of view comes from. It won't be cheaper overall.

I mean, if we compare a 757 vs a G550 on a Pacific Island run for 10 people it may very well be cheaper, I don't know the economics of such an aircraft to confirm that. However, it's a bit more than that, you'd need the whole parts warehouse set up, engineers, aircrew, training setup and that'd be costly for what I would assume it a single frame for limited use, perhaps a second frame. There lies another issue. it's all well a good flying VIP's into places, you'd still need a backup.

While it will be costly to run the 757 on some of these legs, it also provides a valuable training exercise for the crew and puts hours into log book while also conducting an operational mission.


But have you seen what the government spends on travel? Theres been times they've wanted to use the 757 but couldn't so went commercial and surely at a higher price. I've seen some of the spends and it would HAVE to be cheaper to operated a GV or something similar.

Something like this could be really good for pacific operations and surely convertible for medevacs

https://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=1100&tid=400&ct=1

Or this - spares would already be in the country with the number of 737's operating here an NZ's maintenance operations with them

https://www.boeing.com/defense/c-40a/


That looks like it’d be ideal for Air Chats if they get the runway extended out there.
 
cchan
Posts: 974
Joined: Sat May 17, 2003 8:54 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:20 am

Did a search for TBU and RAR flights. Looks like the Work Deluxe option is no longer available?
 
DavidJ08
Posts: 163
Joined: Thu Dec 27, 2007 9:18 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Thu Jun 13, 2019 1:59 pm

cchan wrote:
Did a search for TBU and RAR flights. Looks like the Work Deluxe option is no longer available?

Works Deluxe option is only available on A320 International / A320neo / A321neo flights. It is not available on widebody (777/787) flights, where premium economy and business premier are available instead.

I've done a search for TBU and RAR flights in October (randomly) and found some dates with A320I/neo/A321neo flights where Works Deluxe is available - and likewise some days with 777/787 flights only and therefore no Works Deluxe. When it's only one or two flights a day (ex AKL - searching from any other city will get you a ton of different transit options) and they're both widebody flights, you won't see any option for Works Deluxe, but that's just because they're widebody flights.
 
ZKOAB
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:59 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Thu Jun 13, 2019 8:54 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
tu2130 wrote:
ZK-OXB retiring? Most likely. Cause I had a look at some A320s and ZK-OXB had Christchurch to Christchurch flight could this domestic A320 leave for the new Neos and A320NEOS?


No, must have been out for maintenance that required a test flight. The first domestic A320s to leave would likely be ZK-OAB, OJQ, OJR, OJS when the leases expire I believe in the early 2020s.


Agree with NBT. It's been out for maintenance.
OXB is not even 6 years old and nowhere near retirement.

There's been plenty of posts on this forum to confirm the regional/international 320's (anything with a OJ* rego including the 3 domestics mentioned above) are being replaced with the NEO's
 
User avatar
VirginFlyer
Posts: 5262
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:00 pm

Second day in a row of significant fog disruptions in Auckland. Right now it looks even thicker than it did at this time yesterday. A lot of cancellations and delays.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
bevan7
Posts: 98
Joined: Fri Nov 17, 2017 8:44 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:08 pm

Just looking at flightradar and found a Virgin Australia flight flying AKL-WLG anybody know the reason behind it? https://www.flightradar24.com/VOZ9942/20e216f2
 
NZ6
Posts: 1228
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Thu Jun 13, 2019 9:39 pm

torin wrote:
But have you seen what the government spends on travel? Theres been times they've wanted to use the 757 but couldn't so went commercial and surely at a higher price. I've seen some of the spends and it would HAVE to be cheaper to operated a GV or something similar.

Something like this could be really good for pacific operations and surely convertible for medevacs

https://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=1100&tid=400&ct=1

Or this - spares would already be in the country with the number of 737's operating here an NZ's maintenance operations with them

https://www.boeing.com/defense/c-40a/


The C-40A could be a good aircraft, depends on the range and the headcount they want to 'accommodate for' when transporting personnel. Certainly more likely than a 777.

With regard to how much the government spends on travel, that's a very open question... I mean, are we just talking defence, of including those in Cabinet or party members? what about government agencies etc. how wide do you cast the net.

I'll also raise the point that even if it was for those in Cabinet use and Defence use only, it won't eliminate what the Government spends on travel, the aircraft can only be in one place at a time.

While individual spends may appear high depending on who is going, where they're going, security etc... you can't just compare this to a 'commercial flight' as the Defence would need to budget for the purchase, maintenance, training, parts of the aircraft.

I guess what I'm saying, if put very simply, would you save money from what is normally spent on the travelcard and would this then fund the purchase and ongoing running costs for a G550..

I'll also raise, the public interest in this, especially in today's climate where the government hasn't been willing to pay teachers more yet will be seen as wanting to travel in 'private jets'...
 
NZ6
Posts: 1228
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:49 pm

bevan7 wrote:
Just looking at flightradar and found a Virgin Australia flight flying AKL-WLG anybody know the reason behind it? https://www.flightradar24.com/VOZ9942/20e216f2


No idea, but at a guess was there a diversion at some point given all the fog this week? just a repositioning flight perhaps?
 
mrkerr7474
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:55 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Thu Jun 13, 2019 10:59 pm

NZ6 wrote:
bevan7 wrote:
Just looking at flightradar and found a Virgin Australia flight flying AKL-WLG anybody know the reason behind it? https://www.flightradar24.com/VOZ9942/20e216f2


No idea, but at a guess was there a diversion at some point given all the fog this week? just a repositioning flight perhaps?


If you have a look back on Flightradar it shows VA107 Brisbane to Wellington June 13th diverted to Auckland last night instead. One could presume due to weather (fog perhaps) causing the diversion. The flight VA9942 would have been the repositioning flight in the morning to Wellington so the flight could operate VA170 to Sydney, albeit with a few hour delay which left at 10.11am this morning
 
zkncj
Posts: 3298
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Thu Jun 13, 2019 11:58 pm

With EK now launching an Business Basic fare (https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1424705) whats the chance we could see NZ follow suit with introducing an SeatOnly Business Class fare?
 
torin
Posts: 53
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2005 7:53 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Fri Jun 14, 2019 3:43 am

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
torin wrote:
Something like this could be really good for pacific operations and surely convertible for medevacs

https://www.navy.mil/navydata/fact_display.asp?cid=1100&tid=400&ct=1

Or this - spares would already be in the country with the number of 737's operating here an NZ's maintenance operations with them

https://www.boeing.com/defense/c-40a/


The optics of a small private jet aircraft in the NZ media will make it a non starter for any of the major parties. A larger combi will at least fly with the public due to its clear dual purpose and apparent lack of creature comforts. Especially if it's shown to be cheaper to operate than charter a commercial plane. And just because they flew commercial doesn't mean it has to be more expensive. If planned far enough ahead it probably isn't too bad for scheduled stuff. The expense likely comes when they need to charter a whole plane as airlines don't tend to have much in the way of spare capacity anymore. And when the government needs lots of seats now. In those cases adding a third strategic transport airframe could be shown to be an upfront investment to save long term money. And I expect the government of the day to seriously consider that option.


All it would take is 1 photo of a medevac passenger being loaded in and theres your justification to the public. Think of the recent articles about people stuck overseas in hospital with no travel insurance, you could easily play off that. I think a C40 of sorts would be better, however. But in the end its about what missions the NZDF want it for and than what the government will be willing to spend.

The boat that was missed was the C17s - we should have gotten 2 before the line shut and someone else took the white tails.
 
zkncj
Posts: 3298
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:53 am

torin wrote:
All it would take is 1 photo of a medevac passenger being loaded in and theres your justification to the public. Think of the recent articles about people stuck overseas in hospital with no travel insurance, you could easily play off that. I think a C40 of sorts would be better, however. But in the end its about what missions the NZDF want it for and than what the government will be willing to spend.


Didn’t the Cook Islands recently get an private jet for medevac operations? Although think it was privately funded and used on an character based.

To be honest people stuck overseas in Hopstails without travel insurance, shouldn’t be the resonability of the Defence force to transport them home.
 
jimmyah
Posts: 53
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2018 7:53 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:14 am

zkncj wrote:
torin wrote:
All it would take is 1 photo of a medevac passenger being loaded in and theres your justification to the public. Think of the recent articles about people stuck overseas in hospital with no travel insurance, you could easily play off that. I think a C40 of sorts would be better, however. But in the end its about what missions the NZDF want it for and than what the government will be willing to spend.


Didn’t the Cook Islands recently get an private jet for medevac operations? Although think it was privately funded and used on an character based.

To be honest people stuck overseas in Hopstails without travel insurance, shouldn’t be the resonability of the Defence force to transport them home.


Yes, the Cook Islands plane is owned/operated by Air Rarotonga. I think the C40 is the best option, but would there be commonality with the P-8s as they are both 737's?
 
GW54
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 3:05 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:01 am

Hearing some rumours from a (normally) reliable source that SQ are looking to introduce the A350 to Wellington services. The talk is they will be seen from August. Not sure if that will be the end of the 772's or whether we might see a mix for a while. Anyone heard anything similar?
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7025
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:11 am

GW54 wrote:
Hearing some rumours from a (normally) reliable source that SQ are looking to introduce the A350 to Wellington services. The talk is they will be seen from August. Not sure if that will be the end of the 772's or whether we might see a mix for a while. Anyone heard anything similar?


I believe all 772s will be gone by March, and they are taking delivery of A350s fairly quickly so it makes a lot of sense imo. Likely the new regional configuration seating 303 compared to 266 on the 772. I wonder if there are any plans to increase frequency anytime?

And will there be a non stop WEL-SIN one day? With the long haul 253 seat A359.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
Posts: 944
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:20 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Fri Jun 14, 2019 11:28 am

GW54 wrote:
Hearing some rumours from a (normally) reliable source that SQ are looking to introduce the A350 to Wellington services. The talk is they will be seen from August. Not sure if that will be the end of the 772's or whether we might see a mix for a while. Anyone heard anything similar?


I think the A359 as the B772 replacement was a given. The big question is can they do non stop WLG-SIN. If so, that could be very interesting. But we have to wait for the announcement.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1228
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:49 pm

torin wrote:
All it would take is 1 photo of a medevac passenger being loaded in and theres your justification to the public. Think of the recent articles about people stuck overseas in hospital with no travel insurance, you could easily play off that. I think a C40 of sorts would be better, however. But in the end its about what missions the NZDF want it for and than what the government will be willing to spend.

The boat that was missed was the C17s - we should have gotten 2 before the line shut and someone else took the white tails.


I don't think the NZ public are that easily fooled.

Unless the Defence wants to enter into commercial 'rescue' missions either on behalf of insurance companies or via private charter this isn't a Defence issue, nor should we fund it.

Besides, it's not the role of Defence to cut the lunch of other commercial organisations. As domestically we've got Rescue Helicopters (Westpac / Northland for example) and ACC to cover the cost for accidents, there's also the NZ Air Ambulance Service (http://www.nzaas.co.nz) and if you're going overseas Travel Insurance is a MUST.

I can't see why the NZ public would more likely accept a VIP transport jet based on these scenarios.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1228
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:06 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
GW54 wrote:
Hearing some rumours from a (normally) reliable source that SQ are looking to introduce the A350 to Wellington services. The talk is they will be seen from August. Not sure if that will be the end of the 772's or whether we might see a mix for a while. Anyone heard anything similar?


I believe all 772s will be gone by March, and they are taking delivery of A350s fairly quickly so it makes a lot of sense imo. Likely the new regional configuration seating 303 compared to 266 on the 772. I wonder if there are any plans to increase frequency anytime?

And will there be a non stop WEL-SIN one day? With the long haul 253 seat A359.


Is there any news on how this is actually going? loads, revenue etc.

Late last month it was proved how much SIN is used as a transit point over being the main destination, this service doesn't make the world more accessible as you're stopping in MEL (formerly CBR) instead of AKL or CHC... I would agree it's easier to transit MEL vs the mess of AKL, however, the "master plan" in AKL, if ever completed should bring the two options back to a level playing field.

But you then need to weigh in the other major factor of all the competition in AKL and to a lesser extent CHC which drives down the airfares.

A direct WLG-SIN would offer superior convenience which and I'd assume passengers would be willing to pay for, but while all options include 2 stops AKL or MEL then SIN, or AKL then another Asian port before arriving at your destination price becomes a big influencer.

I understand some around WLG also knew the SQ equipment was dated and was avoided as a result, will the A350 improve this and then can SQ continue to improve it and justify a direct.

I'm still doubtful, but optimistic and a lot more open-minded to it than I was a year ago.
 
NPL8800
Posts: 122
Joined: Mon Jun 06, 2016 5:00 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:43 am

It seems we could have the return of Nauru Airlines to NZ skies as early as November on behalf of Real Tonga. X2/weekly TBU-AKL with the goal of x3/weekly as quickly as possible. Good luck to them, certainly a far less ambitious schedule to begin with than their Samoan counterparts.

https://matangitonga.to/2019/06/13/real ... ines-agree
 
777ER
Head Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 10061
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:04 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:00 am

NZ6 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
GW54 wrote:
Hearing some rumours from a (normally) reliable source that SQ are looking to introduce the A350 to Wellington services. The talk is they will be seen from August. Not sure if that will be the end of the 772's or whether we might see a mix for a while. Anyone heard anything similar?


I believe all 772s will be gone by March, and they are taking delivery of A350s fairly quickly so it makes a lot of sense imo. Likely the new regional configuration seating 303 compared to 266 on the 772. I wonder if there are any plans to increase frequency anytime?

And will there be a non stop WEL-SIN one day? With the long haul 253 seat A359.

Is there any news on how this is actually going? loads, revenue etc.

Late last month it was proved how much SIN is used as a transit point over being the main destination, this service doesn't make the world more accessible as you're stopping in MEL (formerly CBR) instead of AKL or CHC... I would agree it's easier to transit MEL vs the mess of AKL, however, the "master plan" in AKL, if ever completed should bring the two options back to a level playing field.

But you then need to weigh in the other major factor of all the competition in AKL and to a lesser extent CHC which drives down the airfares.

A direct WLG-SIN would offer superior convenience which and I'd assume passengers would be willing to pay for, but while all options include 2 stops AKL or MEL then SIN, or AKL then another Asian port before arriving at your destination price becomes a big influencer.

I understand some around WLG also knew the SQ equipment was dated and was avoided as a result, will the A350 improve this and then can SQ continue to improve it and justify a direct.

I'm still doubtful, but optimistic and a lot more open-minded to it than I was a year ago.

When I last used the service, it seemed the front half of Y was for MEL pax and the rear half was for WLG pax. Leaving MEL the front half only had around 7 empty seats with the rear half having no empty seats. J looked pretty good also while boarding again in MEL.

I've heard the A350R will be used with a possible frequency increase. Travel agency's have been briefed and WLG ground crews have been told all equipment must be A350 capable from August.

Was hoping for a 787-10 service to add that to my flown list but with NZ adding it to the fleet, all hope isn't lost.
Head Forum Moderator
[email protected]
Flown: 1900D,S340,Q300,AT72-5/6,DC3,CR2/7,E145,E70/75/90,A319/20/21,A332/3,A359,A380,F100,B717,B733/4/8/9,B742/4,B752/3,B763,B772/3, B789
With: NZ,SJ,QF,JQ,EK,VA,AA,UA,DL,FL,AC,FJ,SQ,TG,PR
 
777ER
Head Moderator
Topic Author
Posts: 10061
Joined: Fri Dec 19, 2003 5:04 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:03 am

NPL8800 wrote:
It seems we could have the return of Nauru Airlines to NZ skies as early as November on behalf of Real Tonga. X2/weekly TBU-AKL with the goal of x3/weekly as quickly as possible. Good luck to them, certainly a far less ambitious schedule to begin with than their Samoan counterparts.

https://matangitonga.to/2019/06/13/real ... ines-agree

Pity there is no USA-Tonga service as I'm wanting to visit an Island for a few days next year while returning from DTW. Guess I'll have to settle for another RAR stop over
Head Forum Moderator
[email protected]
Flown: 1900D,S340,Q300,AT72-5/6,DC3,CR2/7,E145,E70/75/90,A319/20/21,A332/3,A359,A380,F100,B717,B733/4/8/9,B742/4,B752/3,B763,B772/3, B789
With: NZ,SJ,QF,JQ,EK,VA,AA,UA,DL,FL,AC,FJ,SQ,TG,PR
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7025
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Sat Jun 15, 2019 1:21 am

NZ6 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
GW54 wrote:
Hearing some rumours from a (normally) reliable source that SQ are looking to introduce the A350 to Wellington services. The talk is they will be seen from August. Not sure if that will be the end of the 772's or whether we might see a mix for a while. Anyone heard anything similar?


I believe all 772s will be gone by March, and they are taking delivery of A350s fairly quickly so it makes a lot of sense imo. Likely the new regional configuration seating 303 compared to 266 on the 772. I wonder if there are any plans to increase frequency anytime?

And will there be a non stop WEL-SIN one day? With the long haul 253 seat A359.


Is there any news on how this is actually going? loads, revenue etc.

Late last month it was proved how much SIN is used as a transit point over being the main destination, this service doesn't make the world more accessible as you're stopping in MEL (formerly CBR) instead of AKL or CHC... I would agree it's easier to transit MEL vs the mess of AKL, however, the "master plan" in AKL, if ever completed should bring the two options back to a level playing field.

But you then need to weigh in the other major factor of all the competition in AKL and to a lesser extent CHC which drives down the airfares.

A direct WLG-SIN would offer superior convenience which and I'd assume passengers would be willing to pay for, but while all options include 2 stops AKL or MEL then SIN, or AKL then another Asian port before arriving at your destination price becomes a big influencer.

I understand some around WLG also knew the SQ equipment was dated and was avoided as a result, will the A350 improve this and then can SQ continue to improve it and justify a direct.

I'm still doubtful, but optimistic and a lot more open-minded to it than I was a year ago.


I can’t remember which month it was for but admittedly I think It was JAN or FEB where the WLG-MEL loads were around 87% IIRC someone posted the stats. You could well expect high loads in the peak season. No idea how much of that was WLG-SIN however as the 87% would be total split between MEL-SIN.

SQ said some time back maybe when NZ/SQ announced third daily AKL? That the Premium cabins were doing well, I’m not sure if that was just AKL or NZ in general, CHC now has the more premium 359 compared to the previous long haul 772, WLG gets the regional 772 but more J seats than the long haul ones previously used to CHC.

So CHC capacity has reduced overall for most of the year but NZ will take up the second CHC service DEC-FEB and operate 5 weekly compared to SQ 3 weekly, and a code 2 789 for NZ so even more premium seats.

Is there scope ex WLG to chase the premium traveller more and go non stop with a long haul 359 3-4 weekly? Maybe not this year but in 2-3 years?

I’m more optimistic as well compared to 12 months ago, let AKL/CHC capacity settle a little and build WLG. Is MEL frequency for now and give WLG-SIN ago down the track.
 
a7ala
Posts: 326
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:27 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:05 am

Since the switch to MEL in May last year its averaged around 83% to march in the latest bitre stats:

May 68%
June 69%
July 80%
August 74%
September 78%
October 87%
November 87%
December 90%
January 93%
February 82%
March 79%

This is the load factor on wlg-mel only.

If a new aircraft comes on I would expect these to increase as a fair amount of long haul traffic is avoiding the old 777 product. In terms of freq it really depends on the variant they put on. If it's the higher capacity regional then I'm guessing 4/week would be maintained and hopefully a freq increase if it's the long haul product.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7025
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:36 am

a7ala wrote:
Since the switch to MEL in May last year its averaged around 83% to march in the latest bitre stats:

May 68%
June 69%
July 80%
August 74%
September 78%
October 87%
November 87%
December 90%
January 93%
February 82%
March 79%

This is the load factor on wlg-mel only.

If a new aircraft comes on I would expect these to increase as a fair amount of long haul traffic is avoiding the old 777 product. In terms of freq it really depends on the variant they put on. If it's the higher capacity regional then I'm guessing 4/week would be maintained and hopefully a freq increase if it's the long haul product.


Via MEL I’d expect the regional 359, they are getting more long hauls but still have IST as a 772 to change over, the 359 should lower the costs significantly however while increasing capacity. That flight ex MEL is the only one less than daily and the only regional product, the other 4 daily ex MEL are 77W/380/359 long haul. So there could be a case for consistency
 
a7ala
Posts: 326
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:27 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:55 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
Via MEL I’d expect the regional 359, they are getting more long hauls but still have IST as a 772 to change over, the 359 should lower the costs significantly however while increasing capacity. That flight ex MEL is the only one less than daily and the only regional product, the other 4 daily ex MEL are 77W/380/359 long haul. So there could be a case for consistency


Hopefully that's not the case as the wlg market would benefit from freq over a denser config and would certainly support a prem econ product that the regional fit out doesn't have.
 
zkncj
Posts: 3298
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 4:57 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:09 am

WLG-SIN would have been an good route for the up comming SQ 737-9MAX if only they had the range.

It would be prefect size to allow the route to go daily, in say an 120Y / 12J configuration.
 
Some1Somewhere
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2015 2:22 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:37 am

They'd have major runway length issues even if it did have the range, right?
 
User avatar
VirginFlyer
Posts: 5262
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:41 am

777ER wrote:
NPL8800 wrote:
It seems we could have the return of Nauru Airlines to NZ skies as early as November on behalf of Real Tonga. X2/weekly TBU-AKL with the goal of x3/weekly as quickly as possible. Good luck to them, certainly a far less ambitious schedule to begin with than their Samoan counterparts.

https://matangitonga.to/2019/06/13/real ... ines-agree

Pity there is no USA-Tonga service as I'm wanting to visit an Island for a few days next year while returning from DTW. Guess I'll have to settle for another RAR stop over

Agree - I’m a fan of round-the-world tickets, and it would be great to have more options that can include Pacific Island countries without requiring dog legs and backtracks.

Off topic, a heads up that the long string of unbroken text in your signature causes display issues on the forums - would you please be able to introduce some spaces after your commas so that the list of aircraft types can break across lines.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
User avatar
VirginFlyer
Posts: 5262
Joined: Sun Sep 10, 2000 12:27 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Sat Jun 15, 2019 6:51 am

NZ6 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
GW54 wrote:
Hearing some rumours from a (normally) reliable source that SQ are looking to introduce the A350 to Wellington services. The talk is they will be seen from August. Not sure if that will be the end of the 772's or whether we might see a mix for a while. Anyone heard anything similar?


I believe all 772s will be gone by March, and they are taking delivery of A350s fairly quickly so it makes a lot of sense imo. Likely the new regional configuration seating 303 compared to 266 on the 772. I wonder if there are any plans to increase frequency anytime?

And will there be a non stop WEL-SIN one day? With the long haul 253 seat A359.


Is there any news on how this is actually going? loads, revenue etc.

Late last month it was proved how much SIN is used as a transit point over being the main destination, this service doesn't make the world more accessible as you're stopping in MEL (formerly CBR) instead of AKL or CHC... I would agree it's easier to transit MEL vs the mess of AKL, however, the "master plan" in AKL, if ever completed should bring the two options back to a level playing field.

But you then need to weigh in the other major factor of all the competition in AKL and to a lesser extent CHC which drives down the airfares.

A direct WLG-SIN would offer superior convenience which and I'd assume passengers would be willing to pay for, but while all options include 2 stops AKL or MEL then SIN, or AKL then another Asian port before arriving at your destination price becomes a big influencer.

I understand some around WLG also knew the SQ equipment was dated and was avoided as a result, will the A350 improve this and then can SQ continue to improve it and justify a direct.

I'm still doubtful, but optimistic and a lot more open-minded to it than I was a year ago.

Assuming the staring contest with Perth Airport is resolved and Qantas go ahead with a number of European routes from that city, a WEL-PER service could be an interesting addition to get a number of cities one-stop from Wellington. At 2,482nm great circle distance, that may just come within the range of a 737 MAX or A320neo with a reasonable payload off of Wellington’s runway.

V/F
It is not for him to pride himself who loveth his own country, but rather for him who loveth the whole world. The earth is but one country, and mankind its citizens. —Bahá'u'lláh
 
NZ6
Posts: 1228
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:03 am

a7ala wrote:
Since the switch to MEL in May last year its averaged around 83% to march in the latest bitre stats:

May 68%
June 69%
July 80%
August 74%
September 78%
October 87%
November 87%
December 90%
January 93%
February 82%
March 79%

This is the load factor on wlg-mel only.

If a new aircraft comes on I would expect these to increase as a fair amount of long haul traffic is avoiding the old 777 product. In terms of freq it really depends on the variant they put on. If it's the higher capacity regional then I'm guessing 4/week would be maintained and hopefully a freq increase if it's the long haul product.


Out of interest, where is this data from?
 
NZ6
Posts: 1228
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:08 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
I can’t remember which month it was for but admittedly I think It was JAN or FEB where the WLG-MEL loads were around 87% IIRC someone posted the stats. You could well expect high loads in the peak season. No idea how much of that was WLG-SIN however as the 87% would be total split between MEL-SIN.

SQ said some time back maybe when NZ/SQ announced third daily AKL? That the Premium cabins were doing well, I’m not sure if that was just AKL or NZ in general, CHC now has the more premium 359 compared to the previous long haul 772, WLG gets the regional 772 but more J seats than the long haul ones previously used to CHC.

So CHC capacity has reduced overall for most of the year but NZ will take up the second CHC service DEC-FEB and operate 5 weekly compared to SQ 3 weekly, and a code 2 789 for NZ so even more premium seats.

Is there scope ex WLG to chase the premium traveller more and go non stop with a long haul 359 3-4 weekly? Maybe not this year but in 2-3 years?

I’m more optimistic as well compared to 12 months ago, let AKL/CHC capacity settle a little and build WLG. Is MEL frequency for now and give WLG-SIN ago down the track.


777ER wrote:
When I last used the service, it seemed the front half of Y was for MEL pax and the rear half was for WLG pax. Leaving MEL the front half only had around 7 empty seats with the rear half having no empty seats. J looked pretty good also while boarding again in MEL.

I've heard the A350R will be used with a possible frequency increase. Travel agency's have been briefed and WLG ground crews have been told all equipment must be A350 capable from August.

Was hoping for a 787-10 service to add that to my flown list but with NZ adding it to the fleet, all hope isn't lost.


Any idea of the revenue being generated?

Is it Tasman traffic or long haul traffic? are they lead in fares of market fares? - I've quickly done a comparison comparing NZ and SQ WLG-MEL and there's a big difference in price with SQ being higher year their booking classes look wide open.

As I've covered off before, a full plane is half a picture.
 
mrkerr7474
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:55 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:08 am

Some1Somewhere wrote:
They'd have major runway length issues even if it did have the range, right?


Although I don't know the exacts, I came across this article albeit from March 2016 which if you scroll down to page 38, it gives an example of WLG-SIN in a A359 with a takeoff weight 141600kg, 100kg each PAX with 5% fuel for alt city, they could do a takeoff on the current runway if it is dry conditions only. Any other coniditons it would be a no-go

http://www.gw.govt.nz/assets/Resource-C ... Length.pdf

Whether this is different since the A350 testing I would assume so but unsure of that data.

Although a Qantas FF, if SQ did operate a direct service WLG-SIN I would look to switch airlines as it offers a direct long haul service and avoids another stop in Aussie enroute to Europe. Whether that came at an extra premium, I'm not too sure.

Either way, if the 359 is due to replace the 772, I would definitely be there to spot that beauty landing for the first time
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7025
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:32 am

a7ala wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
Via MEL I’d expect the regional 359, they are getting more long hauls but still have IST as a 772 to change over, the 359 should lower the costs significantly however while increasing capacity. That flight ex MEL is the only one less than daily and the only regional product, the other 4 daily ex MEL are 77W/380/359 long haul. So there could be a case for consistency


Hopefully that's not the case as the wlg market would benefit from freq over a denser config and would certainly support a prem econ product that the regional fit out doesn't have.


Given the flight is less than daily and MEL is a very busy route for SQ a long haul A359 might not have enough Y seats for WLG imo but to many J and W seats for the WLG-MEL sector? I agree that more frequency would be great however are the yields high enough ex WLG to command the less dense long haul configuration or would the MEL-SIN sector dictate that?
 
a7ala
Posts: 326
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:27 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:11 am

NZ6 wrote:
a7ala wrote:
Since the switch to MEL in May last year its averaged around 83% to march in the latest bitre stats:

May 68%
June 69%
July 80%
August 74%
September 78%
October 87%
November 87%
December 90%
January 93%
February 82%
March 79%

This is the load factor on wlg-mel only.

If a new aircraft comes on I would expect these to increase as a fair amount of long haul traffic is avoiding the old 777 product. In terms of freq it really depends on the variant they put on. If it's the higher capacity regional then I'm guessing 4/week would be maintained and hopefully a freq increase if it's the long haul product.


Out of interest, where is this data from?


As I said in my post its all sitting in bitre. Because wlg-mel is the only flight sq does between Australia and new zealand its very easy to isolate individual route performance. As it is for ek's chc-syd or China airlines akl-bne.
 
tealnz
Posts: 585
Joined: Mon Nov 09, 2015 10:47 am

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:27 pm

mrkerr7474 wrote:
Some1Somewhere wrote:
They'd have major runway length issues even if it did have the range, right?


Although I don't know the exacts, I came across this article albeit from March 2016 which if you scroll down to page 38, it gives an example of WLG-SIN in a A359 with a takeoff weight 141600kg, 100kg each PAX with 5% fuel for alt city, they could do a takeoff on the current runway if it is dry conditions only. Any other coniditons it would be a no-go

http://www.gw.govt.nz/assets/Resource-C ... Length.pdf

Whether this is different since the A350 testing I would assume so but unsure of that data.

Take a look at the thread on this issue from two years ago: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=1351457. Based on the Airbus performance database Zeke said the A359 could comfortably do Singapore non-stop. Sounded persuasive to me. Someone else – can’t remember who – suggested the Astral analysis was a bit suspect. As far as I know we haven’t had any authoritative reporting on the wet runway testing last year.
 
NZ321
Posts: 1110
Joined: Fri Jul 31, 2015 8:00 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:17 pm

What about an Air NZ A321N-LR order folks? Could it be a goer for HNL, DPS and PER? 10-12 lie flat seats at the front and the rest in the standard config. Lots of customers lining up.... and Pacific revenues and the like. Is it a goer?
Plane mad!
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 7025
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:52 pm

NZ321 wrote:
What about an Air NZ A321N-LR order folks? Could it be a goer for HNL, DPS and PER? 10-12 lie flat seats at the front and the rest in the standard config. Lots of customers lining up.... and Pacific revenues and the like. Is it a goer?


I can’t see it, they can fill widebodies in these routes, we would be talking 4-5 aircraft to cover AKL/CHC-PER and AKL-DPS/HNL totally different spec to the rest of the fleet, sure you could use them on AKL-SYD/MEL to have a fleet of 6-7. They can fill lie flat J and W to PER/HNL at least, not sure on DPS.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1228
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:41 pm

mrkerr7474 wrote:
Although a Qantas FF, if SQ did operate a direct service WLG-SIN I would look to switch airlines as it offers a direct long haul service and avoids another stop in Aussie enroute to Europe. Whether that came at an extra premium, I'm not too sure.


Out of interest, why do you Opt for the 3-hour narrowbody flight to SYD or MEL then connect to long haul vs a 1-hour narrowbody to AKL and take SQ from there?

If your QF status is important NZ or SQ will likely match it with a few firm bookings.

The only reason I ask is your comment suggests, you'll fly SQ or Star Alliance if it was convenient, so wouldn't you prefer to spend longer on a 'widebody' for comfort.
 
NZ6
Posts: 1228
Joined: Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:50 pm

Re: New Zealand Aviation Thread - June 2019

Sat Jun 15, 2019 10:12 pm

NZ321 wrote:
What about an Air NZ A321N-LR order folks? Could it be a goer for HNL, DPS and PER? 10-12 lie flat seats at the front and the rest in the standard config. Lots of customers lining up.... and Pacific revenues and the like. Is it a goer?


My usual question, why?

NZ can fill a 787 and has filled a 772 previously on PER... they've grown to more than daily in periods and we've seen a seasonal CHC-PER to cater for the demand so why downgauge?

In HNL, we've seen reliable growth on the market over the past 10-20 years, besides that, NZ won't want to give an inch to HA by decreasing capacity.

As for DPS, why invest in an 'LR' into the fleet for a seasonal leisure route when again, the airline is getting reasonable loads and yield while also utilising aircraft during the quieter NS months when it would normally sit around.

To want an A321 on these routes you're almost suggesting there's too much capacity with the current equipment or that the routes require more frequency. While I'd agree with that thought on PER, both DPS and HNL are leisure routes and daily is sufficient.

I'm interested to see what comes of the Boeing NMA (797), I don't think it's going to offer enough range for it to be of much use to NZ but, it's a more suitable size and similar to that of the 763 but with what looks to be much lower range.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos