Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

edealinfo · Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:47 pm

killswitch13 wrote:
This months edition of Vistaras inflight mag shows new connections to MAA, IXC and VNS ex BOM

Thanks for the heads up. I was long suspecting Madras would likely be an option for the business class seats and for the slots. For Chandigarh, I assume it is a relatively wealthy city so there may be demand for business class. I suspect Varanasi was added because the wealthy going to offer Darshan to their gods wouldn’t mind coughing up for premier economy and business class.

Since only 3 cities are announced, I assume multiple frequencies per day. MAA would likely get 5x, and I am guessing the other 2 would get 2 or 3x a day.

Were those the only ones new routes? Anything new from DEL? I am guessing no international as yet, correct?

edealinfo · Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:35 am

Air India to give up its plan to use 747s on domestic routes (from Del to Mumbai/Calcutta) and will now use 787s instead!

https://simpleflying.com/air-india-dome ... cancelled/

CaliguyNYC · Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:35 pm

sabby wrote:
airboss787 wrote:
sabby wrote:

There is quite a bit of demand between NYC and BLR as all the big banks are at BLR and they allow J travel for all employees.

Could you tell us which American banks are based in Bangalore? JP Morgan, Bank of America, Chase, Citibank, Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs are all based in Mumbai and this where I would think all the J traffic comes from. Bangalore may have offices but not sure how many flights or even J cabins those can fill.

I think you may not be quite up to date. BLR is the 3rd largest office for GS globally and 2nd largest in terms of just engineers. Morgan Stanley opened their office in 2014 and now have 3-4k employees (compared to ~2.5k in BOM). JP Morgan have multiple buildings. In addition to this, Deutche bank, Danske, RBS, Barclays, SoGe, Credit Suisse, Citi all have significant presence.

That may be true but I would bet that BOM has the front line investment bankers while BLR is the banks bank office and tech people. It is the front line investment bankers that pay the big bucks for J and F travel. So you can’t just look at office headcount

edealinfo · Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:47 pm

subject to the Government granting additional rights, Spicejet would start flights to Dubai FROM Amritsar, Jaipur, Pune, Mangalore, Madurai and Calicut
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livemi ... 81158.html

Good to see small towns being connected to DXB by Spicejet; and onwards via EMIRATES

airboss787 · Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:14 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
sabby wrote:
airboss787 wrote:

Could you tell us which American banks are based in Bangalore? JP Morgan, Bank of America, Chase, Citibank, Morgan Stanley, Goldman Sachs are all based in Mumbai and this where I would think all the J traffic comes from. Bangalore may have offices but not sure how many flights or even J cabins those can fill.

I think you may not be quite up to date. BLR is the 3rd largest office for GS globally and 2nd largest in terms of just engineers. Morgan Stanley opened their office in 2014 and now have 3-4k employees (compared to ~2.5k in BOM). JP Morgan have multiple buildings. In addition to this, Deutche bank, Danske, RBS, Barclays, SoGe, Credit Suisse, Citi all have significant presence.

That may be true but I would bet that BOM has the front line investment bankers while BLR is the banks bank office and tech people. It is the front line investment bankers that pay the big bucks for J and F travel. So you can’t just look at office headcount

I agree. That is what I was alluding to. I would love to know how many of these people in Bengaluru actually fly to Europe or the US regularly and how many are even flying in J to fill those cabins. I have nothing against BLR but a lot of the premium demand at BLR comes from IT who do fly a lot. Banking, I am not so sure. BOM certainly has the higher-ups of the respective banks that would be mostly flying in J or F and that too, regularly. I would love to see an MUC flight from BLR first.

airboss787 · Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:18 pm

edealinfo wrote:
subject to the Government granting additional rights, Spicejet would start flights to Dubai FROM Amritsar, Jaipur, Pune, Mangalore, Madurai and Calicut
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livemi ... 81158.html

Good to see small towns being connected to DXB by Spicejet; and onwards via EMIRATES

If I am not mistaken, ALL of the above destinations are already served by SpiceJet. Does the article merely mention that pax can seamlessly connect on to EK flights now which they couldn't before? Or does it say that expanding bilaterals will enable EK to start these destinations too? Which is extremely hard to believe.

edealinfo · Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:25 am

airboss787 wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
subject to the Government granting additional rights, Spicejet would start flights to Dubai FROM Amritsar, Jaipur, Pune, Mangalore, Madurai and Calicut
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.livemi ... 81158.html

Good to see small towns being connected to DXB by Spicejet; and onwards via EMIRATES

If I am not mistaken, ALL of the above destinations are already served by SpiceJet. Does the article merely mention that pax can seamlessly connect on to EK flights now which they couldn't before? Or does it say that expanding bilaterals will enable EK to start these destinations too? Which is extremely hard to believe.

If SpiceJet already serves these destinations to DXB then I definitely misunderstood the article. My apologies!

lutfi · Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:34 am

What configuration will Vistara's next delivery of A320 be? Will they decide to have domestic vs international configurations at some point (i.e denser/ all EY aircraft for domestic, and business/ premium economy for int'l? Once they start expanding out of DEL and BOM, will be surprised if they need premium heavy aircraft

lutfi · Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:46 am

edealinfo wrote:
binayak wrote:

I think HKG slots will go back in the upcoming weeks . The slots go back if unused for 80% of the quarter as per IATA rules.
Jet had 2 daily flights from DEL and BOM (1 each ) with a total of 692 one way seats at the max.

The Government should take the blame for this. Give it to anyone that has spare aircraft and ready to serve HKG (even if it is only Spicejet). Regrettably, I doubt Vistara can start HKG at this time unless they start using one of the 5 aircraft that's coming is very soon (my hunch is that they would rather use the aircraft to do short rotations to BOM to grab slots, rather than longer missions that will not help in slot grabbing at BOM).

Indigo probably can serve HKG as well and so too Air India.

My best guess, if the Govt acts soon, would be 1 daily to SpiceJet and 1 to Air India. More likely they won't make a decision and Indian carriers will lose the HKG slots.

Indio already serves HK... I don't think the Indian govt has the right to re-assign the slots (the traffic rights, sure) so they will need to be reapplied for - and anyway, the 9W slots may not make sense for other Indian airlines network

edealinfo · Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:49 am

lutfi wrote:
What configuration will Vistara's next delivery of A320 be? Will they decide to have domestic vs international configurations at some point (i.e denser/ all EY aircraft for domestic, and business/ premium economy for int'l? Once they start expanding out of DEL and BOM, will be surprised if they need premium heavy aircraft

They recently received an ex-WOW Airlines Airbus A320 neo in all economy configuration. It will operate on the Delhi – Kochi sector from June 5, 2019 onwards through the end of the schedule on Oct 29.

https://livefromalounge.boardingarea.co ... iguration/

Vistara's fleet as of May 25 include:

10 A320 Neo (of which 1 is all economy class with 180 seats)
13 A320
4 737-800NG

Total 27 aircraft

lutfi · Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:25 am

Thanks - can't say I am surprised. If you can't beat Indigo - join them

edealinfo · Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:15 am

lutfi wrote:
Thanks - can't say I am surprised. If you can't beat Indigo - join them

I think their getting an all-economy configuration was not intentional. they were looking to lease A320 aircraft in a hurry and this would likely have been the only one available at reasonable lease terms

unnayan · Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:42 am

AI DEL-SFO landed with a defective door...

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/bus ... 634574.cms

lutfi · Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:34 am

edealinfo wrote:
lutfi wrote:
Thanks - can't say I am surprised. If you can't beat Indigo - join them

I think their getting an all-economy configuration was not intentional. they were looking to lease A320 aircraft in a hurry and this would likely have been the only one available at reasonable lease terms

True - Cathay Pacific did the same for a while (some single class A320 as needed capacity in a hurry)

VTORD · Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:01 am

airboss787 wrote:
Does the article merely mention that pax can seamlessly connect on to EK flights now which they couldn't before?

The way I read it, the code-share with SG would effectively enable EX to claim more destinations on it's network, not necessarily EK served.

airboss787 wrote:
Or does it say that expanding bilaterals will enable EK to start these destinations too? Which is extremely hard to believe.

Seats. EK wants more seats. That is what STC is saying in that article. These could be potential FZ destinations with the possible exception of CCJ which already has it.
Also expect up-gauge on some existing (EK) routes with an expanded bilateral. BLR/HYD could fill 1 x daily A380.

sabby · Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:17 am

airboss787 wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
sabby wrote:

I think you may not be quite up to date. BLR is the 3rd largest office for GS globally and 2nd largest in terms of just engineers. Morgan Stanley opened their office in 2014 and now have 3-4k employees (compared to ~2.5k in BOM). JP Morgan have multiple buildings. In addition to this, Deutche bank, Danske, RBS, Barclays, SoGe, Credit Suisse, Citi all have significant presence.

That may be true but I would bet that BOM has the front line investment bankers while BLR is the banks bank office and tech people. It is the front line investment bankers that pay the big bucks for J and F travel. So you can’t just look at office headcount

I agree. That is what I was alluding to. I would love to know how many of these people in Bengaluru actually fly to Europe or the US regularly and how many are even flying in J to fill those cabins. I have nothing against BLR but a lot of the premium demand at BLR comes from IT who do fly a lot. Banking, I am not so sure. BOM certainly has the higher-ups of the respective banks that would be mostly flying in J or F and that too, regularly. I would love to see an MUC flight from BLR first.

I think both of you missed the part where I did mention it is the IT and operations of the banks. And they (GS and MS I know, other banks I am assuming - but most of the travel are done by EDs and MDs anyway) do have J travel policy for ALL employees for international flights. And it is not just traffic originating from BLR but also from NYC/LHR to BLR. I am not saying BLR is comparable to BOM in terms of overall J demand, just that BLR has plenty J demand for long hauls. Even EK and QR have high premium for all class fares originating from BLR.

ameya · Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:22 am

An uphill task: IndiGo’s international foray is not as easy as it looks

Last week, IndiGo, India’s largest carrier by domestic market share and fleet, announced its results. The airline reported its highest ever international capacity deployment in its history. With a growth of 60 percent in international capacity, the airline now deploys close to 20 percent of its capacity on International routes. Since the time IndiGo expressed its interest in the international operations of Air India, there has been talk of either IndiGo opting for the wide-body aircraft or substantially increasing its international presence. So far, we have seen none.

At its peak, Jet Airways had a revenue share of over 50 percent coming in from international operations. Percentages like statistics often hide more than what they reveal. Jet Airways had much smaller domestic operations as compared to IndiGo and a strong wide-body presence to reach the 50 percent share of revenue. IndiGo on the other hand is relying solely on its fleet of A320/A320neo and A321neo to penetrate the international markets, which will either be medium haul or one-stop long haul.

edealinfo · Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:56 pm

100 percent of Air India is up for sale starting June 7. Further, more debt will be moved out of AIr India to sweeten the offer.

Go Moody, go! A big bow to you for moving with lightening speed.

Vistara, the world is now your oyster. The Nano plant in Gujarat planted a long term seed.

https://www.livemint.com/companies/news ... 15420.html

edealinfo · Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:38 am

On another aviation forum, I read that Indigo's DEL - IST flight is pretty much a failure which is why they have not even bothered to start the second flight (remember they announced 2 daily flights to IST). Apparently they aren't withdrawing the DEL -IST because it would reflect an acknowledgement of its failure (as a business strategy) and could upset its shareholders/market value. Any truth to this? Does anyone have a sense of how the route is doing based on available data, or from other sources?

edealinfo · Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:59 am

here is a great op-ed on the slot issue. The article implies that SpiceJet was favored and says, that current rules would instead, unfavorably, favor Air India and Indigo.

https://theleaflet.in/foreign-flying-ri ... locations/

edealinfo · Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:04 am

Indigo announces new international flights:

1) 2 daily flights from Chennai to Kuala Lumpur

2) 1 daily flight from Mumbai to Doha

3) 1 daily flight from Mumbai to Damman

https://www.ndtv.com/business/indigo-an ... ta-2047843

sibibom · Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:38 am

edealinfo wrote:
On another aviation forum, I read that Indigo's DEL - IST flight is pretty much a failure which is why they have not even bothered to start the second flight (remember they announced 2 daily flights to IST). Apparently they aren't withdrawing the DEL -IST because it would reflect an acknowledgement of its failure (as a business strategy) and could upset its shareholders/market value. Any truth to this? Does anyone have a sense of how the route is doing based on available data, or from other sources?

Ban from Pakistani airspace is causing huge detours and tech stops, obviously, it's not ideal. All international carriers flying west from DEL are facing the same problem, United has even dropped DEL temporarily.

SATexan · Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:15 am

As far as One World is concerned, Japan Airlines (JAL) is adding a daily flight from Tokyo (NRT)- Bengaluru (BLR) in 2020 that is perfectly timed for connections (both ways) to Seattle, San Diego, Los Angeles and Vancouver. It still will not be an option for the Bay area fliers since JAL flies to Haneda from there. The JAL flight(s) to DEL/BLR along with Cathay Pacific/ Dragon flights to multiple cities will provide two Pacific options to India on OW something that the SkyTeam is unable to provide at this time due to Korean's limited schedule.

Also, Bengaluru has the highest yields for any airport in India to the Unites States. This has been stated on the record by their airport authority. The last-minute travel demand to Bengaluru is also pretty high. On an average fares to BLR from anywhere in USA are more expensive than other cities in India.

I also believe that it is just a matter of time before KLM's new flight to Amsterdam sees a frequency increase to 5 weekly if not daily.

devmapper · Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:17 am

SATexan wrote:
Also, Bengaluru has the highest yields for any airport in India to the Unites States. This has been stated on the record by their airport authority. The last-minute travel demand to Bengaluru is also pretty high. On an average fares to BLR from anywhere in USA are more expensive than other cities in India.

No offense to the BLR cheerleaders, but:
1. Of course BLR airport management would claim that their airport is more profitable. It's hardly an unbiased source is it?
2. High fares do not necessarily indicate high yields. Keep in mind these (NA-BLR) are ULH flights, served by airlines with higher crew costs than AI. The additional detour for BLR as compared to say DEL may take the crew over FDTL regulations. Even if the crew FDTL is managed, the additional fuel burn may not be worth it, and it just becomes cheaper to let passengers connect onto UK at BOM/DEL

BLR is a fantastic city with a fantastic economy that contributes to truly impressive growth in passenger numbers. That well run airlines have not already started BLR-NA West coast flights indicate that the route isn't profitable enough, or the airlines are not desperate enough to start serving the route. The fact that airlines are starting ULH routes to DEL/BOM indicate that despite BLR's progress, BOM/DEL do have higher yields.

One last thing, in case someone cries anti-South India bias, a well-run foreign flag carrier is unlikely to leave money on the table to meet imaginary biases.

Blerg · Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:53 am

Slightly off topic, after reading the discussion on BLR I decided to read on the city and the state. I noticed the state experienced a fast population growth while local fertility rates fell to 1.8 children per woman. Anyone know where most of these people came from? I guess this population migration also stimulated demand for air travel.

sibibom · Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:35 am

Blerg wrote:
Slightly off topic, after reading the discussion on BLR I decided to read on the city and the state. I noticed the state experienced a fast population growth while local fertility rates fell to 1.8 children per woman. Anyone know where most of these people came from? I guess this population migration also stimulated demand for air travel.

Migration from other states mainly to Bengaluru

sabby · Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:48 am

devmapper wrote:

2. High fares do not necessarily indicate high yields. Keep in mind these (NA-BLR) are ULH flights, served by airlines with higher crew costs than AI. The additional detour for BLR as compared to say DEL may take the crew over FDTL regulations. Even if the crew FDTL is managed, the additional fuel burn may not be worth it, and it just becomes cheaper to let passengers connect onto UK at BOM/DEL

There is no NA-BLR ULH flight yet, all the current flights are 1-2 stops and that means fuel burn is significantly less than a non-stop BOM-NA or DEL-NA. It also means less reserve crews for time outs. In spite of that, the fares are high so yield is definitely high.

devmapper wrote:
The fact that airlines are starting ULH routes to DEL/BOM indicate that despite BLR's progress, BOM/DEL do have higher yields.

NA-DEL/BOM are already ULH flights, NA-BLR would add 500nm on top of that - that is the main problem. Any route between NA hubs and BLR is 7300+nm and there's only 3 flights that are equal or longer than this operated by US carriers - SFO-SIN, IAH-SYD and ATL-JNB. These routes also don't have direct ME/EU competition.

dtw2hyd · Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:36 am

SATexan wrote:
On an average fares to BLR from anywhere in USA are more expensive than other cities in India.

This claim has been made twice over the last few posts, particularly about EK and QR.
I compared BLR-JFK and BOM-JFK one-stop business fares for 6/9/19 outbound and 6/13/19 return(last minute business trip scenario you explained). BOM-JFK is still higher. Egyptair is offering some rock bottom J fares, different story.

BLR is a numbers run airport.

dtw2hyd · Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:45 am

Blerg wrote:
Slightly off topic, after reading the discussion on BLR I decided to read on the city and the state. I noticed the state experienced a fast population growth while local fertility rates fell to 1.8 children per woman. Anyone know where most of these people came from? I guess this population migration also stimulated demand for air travel.

Don't know about the socioeconomic factors of India, but EU legacy unions played a major role in the consolidation of destinations to exotic countries. You cannot get LH or AF/KL unions to agree to operate FRA-AMD or CDG/AMS-AMD even there is enough connecting traffic. They are worst than AI unions. All the load factor/yield story is to cover the actual issues.

CaliguyNYC · Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:04 pm

SATexan wrote:
As far as One World is concerned, Japan Airlines (JAL) is adding a daily flight from Tokyo (NRT)- Bengaluru (BLR) in 2020 that is perfectly timed for connections (both ways) to Seattle, San Diego, Los Angeles and Vancouver. It still will not be an option for the Bay area fliers since JAL flies to Haneda from there. The JAL flight(s) to DEL/BLR along with Cathay Pacific/ Dragon flights to multiple cities will provide two Pacific options to India on OW something that the SkyTeam is unable to provide at this time due to Korean's limited schedule.

Also, Bengaluru has the highest yields for any airport in India to the Unites States. This has been stated on the record by their airport authority. The last-minute travel demand to Bengaluru is also pretty high. On an average fares to BLR from anywhere in USA are more expensive than other cities in India.

I also believe that it is just a matter of time before KLM's new flight to Amsterdam sees a frequency increase to 5 weekly if not daily.

But the analysis isn’t as simple as this. The issue in BLR isn’t yield per se, it is volume. There aren’t enough pax to fill all the seats. BLR hasn’t seen the entrance of some of the lowest fare carriers like the Chinese, TK etc. So capacity matches demand. I actually think BLR’s international flight expansion is more sane and leads to a broader variety of destinations. Glad KL added they fight to AMS and AI added LHR. Hopefully it will see more destinations added.

edealinfo · Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:55 pm

SATexan wrote:
As far as One World is concerned, Japan Airlines (JAL) is adding a daily flight from Tokyo (NRT)- Bengaluru (BLR) in 2020 that is perfectly timed for connections (both ways) to Seattle, San Diego, Los Angeles and Vancouver. It still will not be an option for the Bay area fliers since JAL flies to Haneda from there. The JAL flight(s) to DEL/BLR along with Cathay Pacific/ Dragon flights to multiple cities will provide two Pacific options to India on OW something that the SkyTeam is unable to provide at this time due to Korean's limited schedule.

Also, Bengaluru has the highest yields for any airport in India to the Unites States. This has been stated on the record by their airport authority. The last-minute travel demand to Bengaluru is also pretty high. On an average fares to BLR from anywhere in USA are more expensive than other cities in India.

I also believe that it is just a matter of time before KLM's new flight to Amsterdam sees a frequency increase to 5 weekly if not daily.

Good points. Why doesn’t Korean start flights to Madras.... lot of Korean companies there... and flights count connect at Seoul to US

edealinfo · Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:01 pm

SATexan wrote:
As far as One World is concerned, Japan Airlines (JAL) is adding a daily flight from Tokyo (NRT)- Bengaluru (BLR) in 2020 that is perfectly timed for connections (both ways) to Seattle, San Diego, Los Angeles and Vancouver. It still will not be an option for the Bay area fliers since JAL flies to Haneda from there. The JAL flight(s) to DEL/BLR along with Cathay Pacific/ Dragon flights to multiple cities will provide two Pacific options to India on OW something that the SkyTeam is unable to provide at this time due to Korean's limited schedule.

Also, Bengaluru has the highest yields for any airport in India to the Unites States. This has been stated on the record by their airport authority. The last-minute travel demand to Bengaluru is also pretty high. On an average fares to BLR from anywhere in USA are more expensive than other cities in India.

I also believe that it is just a matter of time before KLM's new flight to Amsterdam sees a frequency increase to 5 weekly if not daily.

Good points. Why doesn’t Korean start flights to Madras.... lot of Korean companies there... and flights count connect at Seoul to US

dtw2hyd · Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:17 pm

edealinfo wrote:
SATexan wrote:
As far as One World is concerned, Japan Airlines (JAL) is adding a daily flight from Tokyo (NRT)- Bengaluru (BLR) in 2020 that is perfectly timed for connections (both ways) to Seattle, San Diego, Los Angeles and Vancouver. It still will not be an option for the Bay area fliers since JAL flies to Haneda from there. The JAL flight(s) to DEL/BLR along with Cathay Pacific/ Dragon flights to multiple cities will provide two Pacific options to India on OW something that the SkyTeam is unable to provide at this time due to Korean's limited schedule.

Also, Bengaluru has the highest yields for any airport in India to the Unites States. This has been stated on the record by their airport authority. The last-minute travel demand to Bengaluru is also pretty high. On an average fares to BLR from anywhere in USA are more expensive than other cities in India.

I also believe that it is just a matter of time before KLM's new flight to Amsterdam sees a frequency increase to 5 weekly if not daily.

Good points. Why doesn’t Korean start flights to Madras.... lot of Korean companies there... and flights count connect at Seoul to US

On the same note with 85%-90% of Japanese investment in India going to Gujarat, JAL/ANA should operate to AMD, not BLR.

edealinfo · Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:27 pm

My speculation on potential investors for Air India.
1. Tatas ( growth vehicle for Vistara)
2. Reliance (has been rumored before that the Reliance boss would do something in the “national interests” to reinforce his Swadeshi credentials. Heck there was even talk that he would merge Air India with the remnants of Jet Airways (to curry even more favor with Shiv Sena which is behind Jet).
3. Indigo ( they are interest in AIs. International operations, for slots among other things)
4. SpiceJet ( if Air India Express is sold separately, it would be a match made in heaven and something they could afford to buy)

5. Adanis (with 6 airports under their belt, AI will entrench them in the aviation business
6. Hindujas (because they can)
7. Jason Unsworth ( who will throw his hat in the ring for the free ride the Gullible Indian media will give him ...,just like they did on Jet)

And, Martin of Martin Consulting will have a field day during the AI sale process as the media will run to him for quotes.

Separately, I don’t think the bilaterals will be changed for at least 4 months .... not until AI is sold off.

What happens to the Government’s sovereign guarantee on Air India borrowings? Is the Government still on the hook, post sale?

devmapper · Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:36 pm

sabby wrote:
There is no NA-BLR ULH flight yet, all the current flights are 1-2 stops and that means fuel burn is significantly less than a non-stop BOM-NA or DEL-NA. It also means less reserve crews for time outs. In spite of that, the fares are high so yield is definitely high.

I meant a hypothetical NA-BLR non-stop ULH flight. One-stop connections are extremely profitable, after all, LH flies the 748 into BLR.

sabby wrote:
NA-DEL/BOM are already ULH flights, NA-BLR would add 500nm on top of that - that is the main problem. Any route between NA hubs and BLR is 7300+nm and there's only 3 flights that are equal or longer than this operated by US carriers - SFO-SIN, IAH-SYD and ATL-JNB. These routes also don't have direct ME/EU competition.

Exactly my point, are there enough F/J passengers between SFO (the most requested non-stop destination from BLR) and BLR to justify UA flying non-stop? Are there enough F/J passengers between BLR and any North American city to justify flying a low-density 789 ULH? Is there a company that would pay to block even 20 J class seats daily between BLR and SFO/JFK/SEA? For comparison, some companies pay US3 to block upto 50 J class seats daily between their critical business centers.

devmapper · Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:41 pm

devmapper wrote:
For comparison, some companies pay US3 to block upto 50 J class seats daily between their critical business centers.

In case anyone wants a background for that image, https://skift.com/2019/01/14/how-united-let-it-slip-that-apple-is-its-biggest-corporate-client/

lightsaber · Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:38 pm

SpiceJet discussing Indian aviation.
https://wap.business-standard.com/artic ... 249_1.html

What I find interesting is the policy call outs. There are expenses placed on aviation in India that make Indian aviation uncompetitive.

Lightsaber

Smithme · Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:56 pm

Why did Indian aviation end up in such bad way ?? All countries are having dream run with airplane travel. Some 25 big Indian companies are closing down. former billionaire Anil Ambani's 6 companies are near closure inspite of Ambanis going to Prime minister's office every week.

Bad days ahead for Indian aviation

SATexan · Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:11 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:
SATexan wrote:
On an average fares to BLR from anywhere in USA are more expensive than other cities in India.

This claim has been made twice over the last few posts, particularly about EK and QR.
I compared BLR-JFK and BOM-JFK one-stop business fares for 6/9/19 outbound and 6/13/19 return(last minute business trip scenario you explained). BOM-JFK is still higher. Egyptair is offering some rock bottom J fares, different story.

BLR is a numbers run airport.

Ofcourse, you had to bring numbers :smile:

I am not sure what data / source you are looking at but here are the one-way Business class numbers for the 6/7/19-6/21/19 on British Airways and Lufthansa on their own aircrafts through their flagship hubs in Europe.

British Airways

            BLR                  BOM
JFK      Unavailable            3364
SFO      Unavailable            6714
ORD    Unavailable            9272
IAD      Unavailable            5970

Bengaluru is completely sold out on the 7th and 8th of June even as there is availability to Mumbai.

Lufthansa

            
               BLR              BOM
JFK            6778            6682
SFO            6675            6648
ORD           6623            6481
IAD            6576            6493

Similar numbers are seen with Air France but I haven't put those numbers out here since AF tends to offer 2 stop connections often with partners.

devmapper wrote:
One last thing, in case someone cries anti-South India bias, a well-run foreign flag carrier is unlikely to leave money on the table to meet imaginary biases.

Yet when well-run foriegn flag carriers come and eat your lunch in BLR certain posters on this board whine and cry as to how anti-Air India the Bangaloreans are !! Honestly, I am not even sure why you made this rather hysterical comment.

dtw2hyd wrote:
You cannot get LH or AF/KL unions to agree to operate FRA-AMD or CDG/AMS-AMD even there is enough connecting traffic. They are worst than AI unions. All the load factor/yield story is to cover the actual issues.

But hey, don't you know

devmapper wrote:
that a well-run foreign flag carrier is unlikely to leave money on the table to meet imaginary biases.

unrave · Wed Jun 05, 2019 4:35 pm

dtw2hyd wrote:

BLR is a numbers run airport.

BLR is a much more profitable airport than the white elephant that is HYD

dtw2hyd · Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:42 pm

SATexan wrote:
dtw2hyd wrote:
SATexan wrote:
On an average fares to BLR from anywhere in USA are more expensive than other cities in India.

This claim has been made twice over the last few posts, particularly about EK and QR.
I compared BLR-JFK and BOM-JFK one-stop business fares for 6/9/19 outbound and 6/13/19 return(last minute business trip scenario you explained). BOM-JFK is still higher. Egyptair is offering some rock bottom J fares, different story.

BLR is a numbers run airport.

Ofcourse, you had to bring numbers

I am not sure what data / source you are looking at but here are the one-way Business class numbers for the 6/7/19-6/21/19 on British Airways and Lufthansa on their own aircrafts through their flagship hubs in Europe.

Friday outbound (and Friday return) for business travel in J. Is that common in India? No US corp would pay for an extra night in a hotel with J and no US employee would spend the weekend on business travel.

What is 6/21 if you ran one-way numbers?

edealinfo · Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:58 am

Poor Air India has such bad luck. They fly an engineering team with a load of spare parts to fix a flight that's stranded in London, and guess what, the very part that requires replacement, is not among the parts they carried from India. Oooh, to be a passenger on that stranded Jet! Why can't Air India fix its IRROPS act right?

For one, they could have transferred passengers to other flights (but AI is too cheap). Second, they could have quickly purchased the required part from other airlines -- unfortunately, this has to run through their long bureaucratic process.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 614891.cms?

airboss787 · Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:23 am

edealinfo wrote:
Poor Air India has such bad luck. They fly an engineering team with a load of spare parts to fix a flight that's stranded in London, and guess what, the very part that requires replacement, is not among the parts they carried from India. Oooh, to be a passenger on that stranded Jet! Why can't Air India fix its IRROPS act right?

For one, they could have transferred passengers to other flights (but AI is too cheap). Second, they could have quickly purchased the required part from other airlines -- unfortunately, this has to run through their long bureaucratic process.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 614891.cms?

The article does mention they got the part from Virgin Atlantic. Which is strange since VS does not operate any GE90s. Wonder how they had that part and not BA. Maybe the part is common with the 787 engine, which VS source from RR so I have no idea how that worked out.
Also like to appreciate Air India engineers, who, whatever way Air India goes about its business, the engineers were working nonstop and tirelessly.

lutfi · Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:40 am

Smithme wrote:
Why did Indian aviation end up in such bad way ?? All countries are having dream run with airplane travel. Some 25 big Indian companies are closing down. former billionaire Anil Ambani's 6 companies are near closure inspite of Ambanis going to Prime minister's office every week.

Bad days ahead for Indian aviation

It isn't in a bad way. Very high growth rates, and Indigo just announced increased profits.

lutfi · Thu Jun 06, 2019 2:44 am

airboss787 wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Poor Air India has such bad luck. They fly an engineering team with a load of spare parts to fix a flight that's stranded in London, and guess what, the very part that requires replacement, is not among the parts they carried from India. Oooh, to be a passenger on that stranded Jet! Why can't Air India fix its IRROPS act right?

For one, they could have transferred passengers to other flights (but AI is too cheap). Second, they could have quickly purchased the required part from other airlines -- unfortunately, this has to run through their long bureaucratic process.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 614891.cms?

The article does mention they got the part from Virgin Atlantic. Which is strange since VS does not operate any GE90s. Wonder how they had that part and not BA. Maybe the part is common with the 787 engine, which VS source from RR so I have no idea how that worked out.
Also like to appreciate Air India engineers, who, whatever way Air India goes about its business, the engineers were working nonstop and tirelessly.

Virgin provide engineering services to other airlines in LHR - so will have stock of spare parts for aircraft that they don't own

airboss787 · Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:46 am

lutfi wrote:
airboss787 wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Poor Air India has such bad luck. They fly an engineering team with a load of spare parts to fix a flight that's stranded in London, and guess what, the very part that requires replacement, is not among the parts they carried from India. Oooh, to be a passenger on that stranded Jet! Why can't Air India fix its IRROPS act right?

For one, they could have transferred passengers to other flights (but AI is too cheap). Second, they could have quickly purchased the required part from other airlines -- unfortunately, this has to run through their long bureaucratic process.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 614891.cms?

The article does mention they got the part from Virgin Atlantic. Which is strange since VS does not operate any GE90s. Wonder how they had that part and not BA. Maybe the part is common with the 787 engine, which VS source from RR so I have no idea how that worked out.
Also like to appreciate Air India engineers, who, whatever way Air India goes about its business, the engineers were working nonstop and tirelessly.

Virgin provide engineering services to other airlines in LHR - so will have stock of spare parts for aircraft that they don't own

Thanks. Did not know Virgin did that.

anshabhi · Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:11 am

Smithme wrote:
Some 25 big Indian companies are closing down. former billionaire Anil Ambani's 6 companies are near closure inspite of Ambanis going to Prime minister's office every week.

Bad days ahead for Indian aviation

The business is not slowing down. People are continuing to fly more than ever.

Only incompetent companies and airlines are shutting down.

Anil Ambani has bought all of his inherited wealth to dirt while Mukesh Ambani has multipled it manifold.

I used Reliance once upon a time and I am writing this post on Jio now. Did I stop using internet? No.
Did Anil Ambani stop getting my business? Yes.

devmapper · Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:02 am

SATexan wrote:
Yet when well-run foriegn flag carriers come and eat your lunch in BLR certain posters on this board whine and cry as to how anti-Air India the Bangaloreans are !! Honestly, I am not even sure why you made this rather hysterical comment.

I can't speak for others, including @dtw2hyd, I don't think AI is doing too badly to NA out of BLR. Of course, their decision to focus on their hub in DEL is doing pretty well for their NA flights, and I'd rather they not lose any more money trying to setup a hub in BLR.

dtw2hyd wrote:
You cannot get LH or AF/KL unions to agree to operate FRA-AMD or CDG/AMS-AMD even there is enough connecting traffic. They are worst than AI unions. All the load factor/yield story is to cover the actual issues.

why would the unions care? If the route is profitable, why would the unions care if they have to spend a day in a hotel in a large Indian city?

SATexan wrote:
But hey, don't you know
devmapper wrote:
that a well-run foreign flag carrier is unlikely to leave money on the table to meet imaginary biases.

I stand by my statement. If there is money to be made on an ULH flight direct to BLR, someone would have flown the route. The fact that there isn't one just goes to show that BLR isn't as high-yielding as some people think it is. :laughing:

SATexan · Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:14 am

dtw2hyd wrote:
Friday outbound (and Friday return) for business travel in J. Is that common in India? No US corp would pay for an extra night in a hotel with J and no US employee would spend the weekend on business travel.

Fair point. Though I personally like to spend the Sunday resting before starting work on Monday.

I re-ran the numbers for one-way Business class with the shortest connection times and both segments being on the same airline. I tried pricing out for two dates. The dates being June 15th (Saturday) / June 16th (Sunday)

British Airways

         BLR                           BOM
JFK      Sold Out / Sold Out         7129/7129          
SFO      Sold Out / Sold Out         7064/7068
ORD      Sold Out / Sold Out         6801/6801   
IAD      Sold Out / Sold Out         6882/6878

Lufthansa

   
         BLR                           BOM
JFK      8568 / 8568                6568/6568          
SFO      13983 / 13983              10676/8503
ORD      10079 / 8457               8302/8302   
IAD      10126 / 8457               8302/8302

Emirates

         BLR                           BOM
JFK      Sold Out / 7687            7338/ 7338          
SFO      Sold Out / 7975            7625/Sold out
ORD      Sold Out / 7813            7527/Sold out   
IAD      Sold Out / 7813            8302/8302

SATexan · Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:20 am

devmapper wrote:
The fact that there isn't one just goes to show that BLR isn't as high-yielding as some people think it is.

There are airport data shared by the BLR airport officials themselves that are buried somewhere in these Indian aviation threads. Additionally, I have presented two sets of data in the posts above. You can interpret them however you want and draw your own conclusions.

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