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lightsaber
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 3:15 pm

unrave wrote:
avier wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.financialexpress.com/industry/we-are-learning-from-jet-airways-mistakes-indigo-ceos-take-on-jets-fatal-move/1618632/lite/

Indigo “learns” from Jet’s mistake and will not order wide bodied aircraft. Good call in my opinions .

separately, Lufthansa has decided to close Eurowings (low cost) long haul operations. Saying it doesn’t work. Joon too is shutting all operations. The only remaining ones are Norwegian which is struggling, LEVEL, and Air Asia X

From the article:
Air India was supposed to do in being the national airline of India and carrying the international traffic, it has not worked,” Ronojoy Dutta said. IndiGo hence looks to step into that and expand its market share internationally

One can wonder how much of that void they can fill into by just using narrowbodied aircraft. Yes, XLR will help make it to Europe with grumpy pax onboard, beyond that I doubt where they can get to. Unless they now plan one-stop to USA via Europe with their Neo XLR's. Be one crazy journey.

This are some very selective quotes. If you watched the interview you would know the point he was making was more nuanced than that. He even said widebody operations are inevitable at IndiGo. They will not rush into launching WB operations in the near future.

The quickest way to bankruptcy is rushing widebody opperations. There is a wudebody price war that I believe will have lower pricing before wudebody pricing recovers. There is time. 6E will be a key customer in India and should negotiate for a while.

Lightsaber
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aarbee
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:27 pm

VTORD wrote:
aarbee wrote:
It was always OK to exceed the check in weight, but wait in line to be told that , then you go on side sit on the floor to fix it, then again wait for your turn. One of the many endless irritating thing to do at 2AM after being tired of the international flight. (There was NO time to enjoy the art work at CSIA-BOM :P)

-R

:lol: :lol: :rotfl:
Been there done that....What would I not give to watch them put those silly cable ties on my checked luggage eh!?

ha ha. It's a saga which gets on the nerves when you are 500kms from home.
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aarbee
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:30 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:

WRT your question on the 757 and India. I think the big issue was that the 757 couldn’t make it from BOM (AI’s hub back then) to the UK or even CDG. Hence AI went with the A300. Or so the story goes.. I may be wrong but that is what I remember people saying.

Don't think AI ever dreamed of running a narrow body on long haul international from India.
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aarbee
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:33 pm

edealinfo wrote:
SpiceJet's pipe dream (?) to have 20 freighter aircraft by 2021. Hey, with a friendly Moody government, you never know.

https://www.stattimes.com/indias-spicex ... 1-aviation

edealinfo wrote:
More pipe dreams (?)

Yogi Adithyanath, CM of UP, is seeking 8 runways at Jewar/NOIDA airport . Hey, with a friendly Moody government, you never know.

Actually, I support his kind of thinking. Think big. If he actually pulls this off (8 runway airport) he will be #2 behind Moody.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 882035.cms


What has the mood of the government got to do with these?

"#2 behind Moody." are there scales of being moody? How will be #1 moody?
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aarbee
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:43 pm

edealinfo wrote:
With Philippines Airlines, and Garuda International Airlines (of Indonesia) dropping their services to London LHR, maybe Vistara can acquire slots from them or seek to obtain it through the normal allocation process for new entrants.

https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... don-478183

Do what with LHR slots.
No planes?
No pilots, no infrastructure.
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CaliguyNYC
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:46 pm

aarbee wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:

WRT your question on the 757 and India. I think the big issue was that the 757 couldn’t make it from BOM (AI’s hub back then) to the UK or even CDG. Hence AI went with the A300. Or so the story goes.. I may be wrong but that is what I remember people saying.

Don't think AI ever dreamed of running a narrow body on long haul international from India.


As the other poster mentioned, they did evaluate both the 757 and the A300. I think it was under Rajiv. But most definitely they did. Btw the 757 ended up opening up so many thin routes from the US to EU. If only it had that little more range to make India-EU work. India might have had better connectivity decades ago.
 
aarbee
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:49 pm

avier wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
You'll rushed in judgement to their [airline/airport/authorities] defense without learning about the past history and experiences. ...
...


Have no pity for such pax. It's almost become the norm that Indian pax report late for Check-in or at gate for boarding, and somehow end up becoming the "victims". And then rant on Twitter and ask Modi or Sushma or any other minister to intervene. Like yeah, these ministers will instead of focusing on more pressing issues regarding the country,

Wish some people would understand this and realize that Aviation is not the topmost on pressing issues of the country.

avier wrote:
will stop to intervene to save some morons because they happened to be late for a flight.
Your personal idiotic issues, deal it yourself. And don't drag ministers of State,etc.
Indian pax should read the Conditions of Carriage of airlines and other such rules like a bible before any journey they want to undertake by air.
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aarbee
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:58 pm

VTORD wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Do you think Moscow airport is duty-free paradise like Dubai where people enjoy hanging out in the airport


I have never been to Moscow so I wouldn't know. Clearly you seem to know better than me so why don't you enlighten me? I have transited and travelled through enough time in airports in the EU and ME3 to not need your advice about "hanging out" at airports. So I would appreciate if you kept the sanctimony to yourself.

That's what I have been wondering too. "Hanging out " at duty-free paradise airports? Noticed this before also. What is there to hang out at duty free shops?
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aarbee
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:00 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:

I know I couldn’t believe it either. Why only two runways. Reason - all the politicians bought the land around the airport and then didn’t want to sell.

That would NOT surprise me at all.
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aarbee
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:04 pm

edealinfo wrote:
[quote=“VTORD”]

edealinfo wrote:
the claim that 25 persons (largely students) were late for their flights was a telling sign. ?


Pray do tell what it is a telling sign of? I am all for it.


The sign that it is highly implausible that 25 persons (a good number of which were students] are unable to keep track of time so as to miss a connecting flight. You do know that clocks were invented hundreds of years ago?[/quote]
Ah so since the invention of clock hundred of years ago all the the world has synchronized and everything is on time by the clock.

I find it amusing about the thought that people had no idea about how to figure out time before the clock was invented. :roll:
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aarbee
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:08 pm

srkSJC wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
avier wrote:
True. It's sad and really stupid that the new Mumbai airport (NMIA) will be having just 2 parallel runways. And this is the most populated city of the country with the largest population (or approaching there).
China is designing all new major airports at the bigger cities with 200mn capacity and 4-8 runways.


I know I couldn’t believe it either. Why only two runways. Reason - all the politicians bought the land around the airport and then didn’t want to sell.


There are many reasons why extra land was not secured in a timely fashion. I will try to cover some points from my personal interactions with the local lawyers and CIDCO/Collector of Raigad office/Collector of Thane ( this portion of land interchanged its location between these two authorities)
1. The time from 1980- 1995 was in midst of want to financial resources to acquire the land( throw in the reason of delay due to complicated Land Acquisition Act in it)
2. Beyond that the case for the new airport never arose very seriously because traffic at Sahar and Vile Parle never rose to that level which would merit a second airport viability.
3. In the meantime due to lack of proper legal implementation of pending acquisition of land for NMIA from 1980's to mid 2000'0 led to permission to local builders to start construction of housing.
4. After the moves and noises were made to acquire the land, the strong builder lobby wanted to either delay it or create enough obstacle in the path to acquire the land so that they may get the extra bit land. (remember once the land acquisition notification comes or is made public the AAI restrictions on the building height owing to the runway funnel will come into picture(yes, in Mumbai this has been controversial as many buildings got their heights increased due to collusion from AAI but that is another matter)) so that was another reason for shortage of land. Something similar is happening in San Jose where the city council is pushing for increase of heights of buildings in the SJ downtown area for increase of taxes and permit fees ( which means that long haul aircrafts cannot use the airport in the future){so nothing new to India as such}.
5. Locals were incited to not agree to any compensation which the government consented to. Every now and then the PAP ( project affected population) agreed on a sum with government local politicians will instigate the population in not accepting the compensation (many reasons why they did this - some amount of corruption cannot be ruled out plus the builders who get to construct the buildings in the proximity will pay them future bribes). All of this took a long period of time to get resolved and by then all they could gather was space for two runways.
6.And As cited by Unrave the unique topography of NMIA is also a hindrance.

PS - i am an indian lawyer(still licensed to practice there) and moved to Bay Area in 2017. Prior to that i was a corporate lawyer in Navi Mumbai for 7 years.


Welcome to A.Net.
Thank you for the describing the ground realities. At least details from the people who are more close to functioning.

Cheers
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aarbee
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:21 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
A lot of airports won't let you bring on duty free that was purchased in another airport if it violates the liquid limit. Annoying but not just a BOM thing. I think a year ago many airports will let you bring it if it has some seal on the bag - they just manually inspect though (so will slow you down but they don't seize it). Don't know what BOM does since the seal thing happened. At a min they should let you bring on duty free that is bought at BOM (and still in the sealed bag). But again I don't know. I never buy duty free outside of BOM (never need it). When I arrive at BOM, I buy the 2 bottles of scotch like every dam time we land. Btw BOM's prices are surprisingly good.

I can understand if it is was just the security issue.

But these are among many of the small small reasons due to which the international transit from BOM is annoying. (Have not done international transit from any other airport in India). The sealed bag was introduced quite a while back.
Last edited by aarbee on Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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aarbee
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:32 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Sorry just realized it was Indigo that said the no wide bodies. I think a pure LCC INTL wide body from India is super tough given coach fares are already super cheap. It works from the UK because fares there are higher. Spice's new hybrid model is better suited for wide bodies and of course Vistara. I hope foreign airlines step in and help them (meaning offer them good terms on a partnership to make INTL wide bodies work). DL are you listening :)

Yes for long-haul international, budget airline will have a tough time to succeed
a) unless a market is created for light long haul travel
b) fares are 40% of regular coach fares.

But for transit connections, especially to western hemisphere, it will be a no go.
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vadodara
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:57 pm

edealinfo wrote:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.financialexpress.com/industry/we-are-learning-from-jet-airways-mistakes-indigo-ceos-take-on-jets-fatal-move/1618632/lite/

Indigo “learns” from Jet’s mistake and will not order wide bodied aircraft. Good call in my opinions .

ga X


Did NG make mistakes? I thought it was a Ajay Singh conspiracy.

Acquiring WB jets and serving Scotch and Samosa’s in F was the secret to a well managed airline.
 
aarbee
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:05 pm

edealinfo wrote:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.financialexpress.com/industry/we-are-learning-from-jet-airways-mistakes-indigo-ceos-take-on-jets-fatal-move/1618632/lite/

Indigo “learns” from Jet’s mistake and will not order wide bodied aircraft. Good call in my opinions .

separately, Lufthansa has decided to close Eurowings (low cost) long haul operations. Saying it doesn’t work. Joon too is shutting all operations. The only remaining ones are Norwegian which is struggling, LEVEL, and Air Asia X

Huh! It's not a binary thing.
- Wide body orders = mistake.

Jet's business case was completely different. It was imperative in it's growth story to go with wide bodies. Flying A321s or B757 to Europe from BOM would have not worked from them. Jet's competition was BA, LH, AF, KL, SR etc.

Indigo's market is completely different.
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aarbee
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:20 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
Given the current state of Indian aviation, I am not disputing their choice. I would rather focus on why. Why is it no Indian airline can fly wide bodies profitably from India? I mean India is a huge source market for traffic (the source market usually gets to control a good chunk on the travelers). Plus inbound tourism, while not France, is still not bad. If I remember correctly India has more inbound tourists than Brazil or Israel. So what is the issue. Taxes (we know this), ME3 bilaters/competition, poor management, lack of capital?? The GOI has to create the right business environment. They can't solve bad management, but something tells me it is structural rather than management.

Too late in the game
Failed to create new markets
Focus remained on BOM/DEL/LON/NYC.

For inbound tourism why would (say) EU tourist want to travel Jet Airways? Existing carriers provided
  • More familiarity
  • Flexibility - Italian tourists did not have to travel 3 hours in wrong direction to reach India),
  • Affiliation to their mileage gathering
  • Could already use FSC 9W/AI for travel beyond BOM/DEL
What did Jet provide for the tourists, which they did not already have (hence failure to create market).

CaliguyNYC wrote:
So right choice, but super sad. Just means a lot of Jet's market share INTL will go to foreign carriers.


On the other hand Indigo. Hey Vietnamese tourists, you want to visit Rajasthan. We'll get you there via CCU and saving you time.
Hey US VFRs from 10 cities (in USA) ME3 will get you to AMD, ATQ, JAI and 8-10 other cities with one stop, without hassle of NYC and BOM.
Last edited by aarbee on Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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aarbee
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:23 pm

avier wrote:
From the article:
Air India was supposed to do in being the national airline of India and carrying the international traffic, it has not worked,” Ronojoy Dutta said. IndiGo hence looks to step into that and expand its market share internationally

One can wonder how much of that void they can fill into by just using narrowbodied aircraft. Yes, XLR will help make it to Europe with grumpy pax onboard, beyond that I doubt where they can get to. Unless they now plan one-stop to USA via Europe with their Neo XLR's. Be one crazy journey.

Ha ha. So true, grumpy passenger onboard. Never say No, but I don't see myself taking 6E 321LR US-EU stop- BOM, unless if its $250 RT. :P
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aarbee
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:29 pm

unrave wrote:
This are some very selective quotes. If you watched the interview you would know the point he was making was more nuanced than that. He even said widebody operations are inevitable at IndiGo. They will not rush into launching WB operations in the near future.

Good move. Figure out it if there's a market

CaliguyNYC wrote:
I hear everyone about not rushing things, but I also really struggle with it. On the one hand these airlines are supposedly doing really well, with strong management and strong fundamentals. But they are acting like companies that are just getting by. Where a slip up could bring them down.


avier wrote:
And that's exactly what it is for Indian carriers. One bump would be enough to create a drag, which would be hard to get out of.!

That is precisely the point. What do Indigo's and SpiceJets gain using Wide bodies.

lightsaber wrote:
The quickest way to bankruptcy is rushing widebody opperations. There is a wudebody price war that I believe will have lower pricing before wudebody pricing recovers. There is time. 6E will be a key customer in India and should negotiate for a while.

Lightsaber

You make it good point.
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aarbee
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:33 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
aarbee wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:

WRT your question on the 757 and India. I think the big issue was that the 757 couldn’t make it from BOM (AI’s hub back then) to the UK or even CDG. Hence AI went with the A300. Or so the story goes.. I may be wrong but that is what I remember people saying.

Don't think AI ever dreamed of running a narrow body on long haul international from India.


As the other poster mentioned, they did evaluate both the 757 and the A300. I think it was under Rajiv. But most definitely they did. Btw the 757 ended up opening up so many thin routes from the US to EU. If only it had that little more range to make India-EU work. India might have had better connectivity decades ago.

Might be 767. I don't see AI even thinking of a 757 service from India to Europe (even from secondary cities.

Even the thin routes you refer to is mostly after
1) post 9/11
2) post collapse of US FSC into 3 carriers
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aarbee
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:35 pm

vadodara wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.financialexpress.com/industry/we-are-learning-from-jet-airways-mistakes-indigo-ceos-take-on-jets-fatal-move/1618632/lite/

Indigo “learns” from Jet’s mistake and will not order wide bodied aircraft. Good call in my opinions .

ga X


Did NG make mistakes? I thought it was a Ajay Singh conspiracy.

Acquiring WB jets and serving Scotch and Samosa’s in F was the secret to a well managed airline.

Ha ha ha .... Of course it was AS conspiracy.
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edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:48 am

How Calcutta won a Dubai flight but lost a London one
The new route sounds suspiciously like a consolation prize


Love the headline and the byline


https://www.telegraphindia.com/states/w ... id/1693185
 
binayak
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:18 am

edealinfo wrote:
How Calcutta won a Dubai flight but lost a London one
The new route sounds suspiciously like a consolation prize


Love the headline and the byline


https://www.telegraphindia.com/states/w ... id/1693185


TBH CCU never had any non stop to LHR ever . BA did it via DAC / BAH / DEL and AI's flight was via DEL . I think CCU will be able to handle a321XLR to EU but then again we have the range issue .
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edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:18 am

https://www.cnbctv18.com/aviation/top-1 ... 801181.htm

10 Take Aways for Ronojoy interview:

1. There is only one administrative issue between the two promoters of the airline about related party transaction.
2. The airline is in talks with Airbus and Boeing for placing its next order; believes that mixed fleet doesn't work for small orders but are doable if the addition is of at least 70 planes.
3. The airline is interested in Air India but only for its international segment. Given a choice it would bid for the international segment of Air India only at the right fleet size and right price. The airline still believes that Air India has huge risks but great rewards.
4. The airline will NOT look at adding business class seats.
5. The airline is looking at growing its international operations aggressively. Out of a capacity growth of 30 percent, it wants to deploy half of that for international expansion and the remaining for domestic.
6. The airline believes wide-body aircraft are inevitable but a dangerous model. It is not looking to induct these in the near term but is studying the long-range wide-bodied aircraft model.
7. Jet Airways made a wrong decision of adding wide-bodied aircraft in its model too soon and the international expansion plan was not an organised one. IndiGo doesn't want to repeat the same mistakes.
8. The pilot shortage situation is under control. It has employed 300 ex-Jet Airways pilots and hopes to add another 100 by September.
9. The $20 billion deal with CFM to power 280 A320neo family aircraft was not because the airline had concerns about Pratt & Whitney engines. It was because CFM offered a better package than its rival.
 
FligtReporter
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:44 am

AI board to discuss asset sale and more in July

https://www.thequint.com/news/business/ ... hange-rate
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:56 am

More on the Indigo RonJoy interview for those that like to dig into details:
https://www.cnbctv18.com/aviation/we-ar ... 802361.htm
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:25 am

edealinfo wrote:
How Calcutta won a Dubai flight but lost a London one
The new route sounds suspiciously like a consolation prize
Love the headline and the byline
https://www.telegraphindia.com/states/w ... id/1693185

Sounds entirely like a Mamata-TMC mouthpiece. Oh wait, that's what Telegraph India is.
If there was any real demand to UK, BA and other foreign airlines would have tapped into Calcutta market. But since they also don't operate, it's obviously then not a political issue and simply lack of demand.
Indian cities & their representatives need to understand one thing clearly: No demand= No flights. Simple, and learn to suck it up.
 
unnayan
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:29 am

binayak wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
How Calcutta won a Dubai flight but lost a London one
The new route sounds suspiciously like a consolation prize


Love the headline and the byline


https://www.telegraphindia.com/states/w ... id/1693185


TBH CCU never had any non stop to LHR ever . BA did it via DAC / BAH / DEL and AI's flight was via DEL . I think CCU will be able to handle a321XLR to EU but then again we have the range issue .


Both BA & AI had nonstop services from CCU pre 2010 for some years
 
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:58 am

Does anyone know if 9Ws license is suspended or when will it be suspended if it aint yet ?
 
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AirIndia
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:13 am

edealinfo wrote:
https://www.cnbctv18.com/aviation/top-10-takeaways-from-indigo-ceo-ronojoy-dutta-interview-3801181.htm

10 Take Aways for Ronojoy interview:

1. There is only one administrative issue between the two promoters of the airline about related party transaction.
2. The airline is in talks with Airbus and Boeing for placing its next order; believes that mixed fleet doesn't work for small orders but are doable if the addition is of at least 70 planes.
3. The airline is interested in Air India but only for its international segment. Given a choice it would bid for the international segment of Air India only at the right fleet size and right price. The airline still believes that Air India has huge risks but great rewards.
4. The airline will NOT look at adding business class seats.
5. The airline is looking at growing its international operations aggressively. Out of a capacity growth of 30 percent, it wants to deploy half of that for international expansion and the remaining for domestic.
6. The airline believes wide-body aircraft are inevitable but a dangerous model. It is not looking to induct these in the near term but is studying the long-range wide-bodied aircraft model.
7. Jet Airways made a wrong decision of adding wide-bodied aircraft in its model too soon and the international expansion plan was not an organised one. IndiGo doesn't want to repeat the same mistakes.
8. The pilot shortage situation is under control. It has employed 300 ex-Jet Airways pilots and hopes to add another 100 by September.
9. The $20 billion deal with CFM to power 280 A320neo family aircraft was not because the airline had concerns about Pratt & Whitney engines. It was because CFM offered a better package than its rival.


Good summary. Reg point 2, i recall he did mention that they were looking at 2024-25 for EIS for the next batch. Just trying to join the dots then that it might be the WB order that comes next and which is why Boieng is also in discussion since they dont really have anything to offer 6E on the NB space, unless 6E is playing ball with the on the NMA concept....

Overall it was a good interview and one of the few from an Indian airline boss that was captivating for the entire 30 minutes. The anchor wasted too much time poking on the promoter issue and wouldnt back off and eventually the issue was a damp squib.

The CFM deal while being cost effective and Pratt being proactive bla bla bla.... the truth is that many corporates had placed embargos on 6E travel for executive if the flight wasa NEO.... and 6E was aware of this issue and maybe at some level this was an influencer as well....
 
FligtReporter
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:33 am

AirIndia wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
https://www.cnbctv18.com/aviation/top-10-takeaways-from-indigo-ceo-ronojoy-dutta-interview-3801181.htm

10 Take Aways for Ronojoy interview:

1. There is only one administrative issue between the two promoters of the airline about related party transaction.
2. The airline is in talks with Airbus and Boeing for placing its next order; believes that mixed fleet doesn't work for small orders but are doable if the addition is of at least 70 planes.
3. The airline is interested in Air India but only for its international segment. Given a choice it would bid for the international segment of Air India only at the right fleet size and right price. The airline still believes that Air India has huge risks but great rewards.
4. The airline will NOT look at adding business class seats.
5. The airline is looking at growing its international operations aggressively. Out of a capacity growth of 30 percent, it wants to deploy half of that for international expansion and the remaining for domestic.
6. The airline believes wide-body aircraft are inevitable but a dangerous model. It is not looking to induct these in the near term but is studying the long-range wide-bodied aircraft model.
7. Jet Airways made a wrong decision of adding wide-bodied aircraft in its model too soon and the international expansion plan was not an organised one. IndiGo doesn't want to repeat the same mistakes.
8. The pilot shortage situation is under control. It has employed 300 ex-Jet Airways pilots and hopes to add another 100 by September.
9. The $20 billion deal with CFM to power 280 A320neo family aircraft was not because the airline had concerns about Pratt & Whitney engines. It was because CFM offered a better package than its rival.


Good summary. Reg point 2, i recall he did mention that they were looking at 2024-25 for EIS for the next batch. Just trying to join the dots then that it might be the WB order that comes next and which is why Boieng is also in discussion since they dont really have anything to offer 6E on the NB space, unless 6E is playing ball with the on the NMA concept....

Overall it was a good interview and one of the few from an Indian airline boss that was captivating for the entire 30 minutes. The anchor wasted too much time poking on the promoter issue and wouldnt back off and eventually the issue was a damp squib.

The CFM deal while being cost effective and Pratt being proactive bla bla bla.... the truth is that many corporates had placed embargos on 6E travel for executive if the flight wasa NEO.... and 6E was aware of this issue and maybe at some level this was an influencer as well....


Nice to see you AIR INDIA lol..I didnt know we have a user named AI...really cute and love the maharajah on your profile. :bigthumbsup:
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 7:19 am

AirIndia wrote:
The CFM deal while being cost effective and Pratt being proactive bla bla bla.... the truth is that many corporates had placed embargos on 6E travel for executive if the flight wasa NEO.... and 6E was aware of this issue and maybe at some level this was an influencer as well....

Really? This is news to us.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
FligtReporter
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:07 am

AI's DEL-YYZ bookings are open and its 773s they r using as expected.

and it seems they will not be operating from Next year as the website doesnt show any direct flights on DEL-YYZ
 
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CPS001
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:28 pm

FligtReporter wrote:
AI's DEL-YYZ bookings are open and its 773s they r using as expected.

and it seems they will not be operating from Next year as the website doesnt show any direct flights on DEL-YYZ
Bookings are only open for the summer schedule so far. That doesn't mean the flight won't operate beyond that.
 
edealinfo
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:52 pm

Why doesn’t the Government bring in fresh thinking to the airline sector? For instance, could they designate “Kannur” airport to be an “open skies” airport so flights from this airport to other countries would not count towards the bilaterals.

It could be set up as a test “demonstration” policy valid for say 3 years. If an independent agency determines that during the period, it was a net benefit to the country and the people it should be made permanent for Kannur.

Why Kannur? It is a brand new airport run by a public and private partnership. foreign carriers wouldn’t be able to milk it for premium passengers and 5th freedom traffic. Nevertheless, foreign carriers such as Qatar, Kuwait, Oman, UAE, etc, would likely jump on board because existing bilaterals are chocked and this is an avenue to keep open a pipeline to the Indian market. Plus there are a ton of Keralites in the gulf looking for available flights to get home.

c’mon politicians; steal my idea and claim it as your own. I don’t care. Get some fresh thinking! Heck, if this project succeeds, maybe the North East could also be opened up for open skies.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:36 pm

edealinfo wrote:
Why Kannur? It is a brand new airport run by a public and private partnership. foreign carriers wouldn’t be able to milk it for premium passengers and 5th freedom traffic.

I don't quite follow the logic. Why wouldn't foreign airlines be able to milk CNN for 5th freedom aircraft?
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:49 pm

 
anshabhi
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:55 pm

edealinfo wrote:
Why doesn’t the Government bring in fresh thinking to the airline sector? For instance, could they designate “Kannur” airport to be an “open skies” airport so flights from this airport to other countries would not count towards the bilaterals.

It could be set up as a test “demonstration” policy valid for say 3 years. If an independent agency determines that during the period, it was a net benefit to the country and the people it should be made permanent for Kannur.

Why Kannur? It is a brand new airport run by a public and private partnership. foreign carriers wouldn’t be able to milk it for premium passengers and 5th freedom traffic. Nevertheless, foreign carriers such as Qatar, Kuwait, Oman, UAE, etc, would likely jump on board because existing bilaterals are chocked and this is an avenue to keep open a pipeline to the Indian market. Plus there are a ton of Keralites in the gulf looking for available flights to get home.

c’mon politicians; steal my idea and claim it as your own. I don’t care. Get some fresh thinking! Heck, if this project succeeds, maybe the North East could also be opened up for open skies.


10 years down the line if this idea kills the intl ambition of Indian Airlines will you take the blame?

Would these foreign airlines set up their aircraft bases in India?? Will they give employment to Indians? Will they cause an inflow or out flow of Forex?

Policies are not supposed to be made with a myopic view. Long term impact of any decision is properly studied first.
 
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 1:56 pm

avier wrote:

If you snooze, you lose. SpiceJet did s great job bringing over 738s.

The link notes vastly improved margins for Indian Cartier's.

There will be no excuse for losses this fiscal year.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:21 pm

anshabhi wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Why doesn’t the Government bring in fresh thinking to the airline sector? For instance, could they designate “Kannur” airport to be an “open skies” airport so flights from this airport to other countries would not count towards the bilaterals.

It could be set up as a test “demonstration” policy valid for say 3 years. If an independent agency determines that during the period, it was a net benefit to the country and the people it should be made permanent for Kannur.

Why Kannur? It is a brand new airport run by a public and private partnership. foreign carriers wouldn’t be able to milk it for premium passengers and 5th freedom traffic. Nevertheless, foreign carriers such as Qatar, Kuwait, Oman, UAE, etc, would likely jump on board because existing bilaterals are chocked and this is an avenue to keep open a pipeline to the Indian market. Plus there are a ton of Keralites in the gulf looking for available flights to get home.

c’mon politicians; steal my idea and claim it as your own. I don’t care. Get some fresh thinking! Heck, if this project succeeds, maybe the North East could also be opened up for open skies.


10 years down the line if this idea kills the intl ambition of Indian Airlines will you take the blame?

Would these foreign airlines set up their aircraft bases in India?? Will they give employment to Indians? Will they cause an inflow or out flow of Forex?

Policies are not supposed to be made with a myopic view. Long term impact of any decision is properly studied first.

Dubai used such a wayport to tremendous success. Why couldn't India? If no risk is taken, no reward. But it must be the same in reverse. Also, much longer than 3 years. Also, a moderate O&D airport would be better. I suggest HYD.

Any domestic India connections would have to be Indian airlines. Indian airlines would have to receive equal access and fair slots.

This is a way to take so many routes from the ME3. Without such fresh thinking, the Indian airlines will never become international powerhouses to be discussed in the same group as LH, BA, TK, and EK. They should get there.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
CaliguyNYC
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:24 pm

aarbee wrote:
CaliguyNYC wrote:
Given the current state of Indian aviation, I am not disputing their choice. I would rather focus on why. Why is it no Indian airline can fly wide bodies profitably from India? I mean India is a huge source market for traffic (the source market usually gets to control a good chunk on the travelers). Plus inbound tourism, while not France, is still not bad. If I remember correctly India has more inbound tourists than Brazil or Israel. So what is the issue. Taxes (we know this), ME3 bilaters/competition, poor management, lack of capital?? The GOI has to create the right business environment. They can't solve bad management, but something tells me it is structural rather than management.

Too late in the game
Failed to create new markets
Focus remained on BOM/DEL/LON/NYC.

For inbound tourism why would (say) EU tourist want to travel Jet Airways? Existing carriers provided
  • More familiarity
  • Flexibility - Italian tourists did not have to travel 3 hours in wrong direction to reach India),
  • Affiliation to their mileage gathering
  • Could already use FSC 9W/AI for travel beyond BOM/DEL
What did Jet provide for the tourists, which they did not already have (hence failure to create market).

CaliguyNYC wrote:
So right choice, but super sad. Just means a lot of Jet's market share INTL will go to foreign carriers.


On the other hand Indigo. Hey Vietnamese tourists, you want to visit Rajasthan. We'll get you there via CCU and saving you time.
Hey US VFRs from 10 cities (in USA) ME3 will get you to AMD, ATQ, JAI and 8-10 other cities with one stop, without hassle of NYC and BOM.


The indigo flight will target Indian tourist not Vietnamese (I am willing to bet that few from Hanoi will vacation in CCU or India). Btw I think the route will fail (unless someone can show me the data that people are flying between the two countries - and we can double that number because of this new flight - 0 X 2 = 0
Your point about the ME3 is exactly the point I was making. How is that a win for India. Those jobs lie with the ME3 not India for Indians. Remember you always had the option to fly the ME3 but wait....so so so so many people did not fly them and have no desire to fly them. Choice was lost. That is always a negative. I don't want the ME3 to not fly to India the flip side also holds true - I don't want India to not have airlines that fly long haul when India is a HUGE long haul source country.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:55 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
The indigo flight will target Indian tourist not Vietnamese (I am willing to bet that few from Hanoi will vacation in CCU or India).

Why do you think IndiGo flies to BKK from VNS of all places?
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:03 pm

CaliguyNYC wrote:
The indigo flight will target Indian tourist not Vietnamese (I am willing to bet that few from Hanoi will vacation in CCU or India). Btw I think the route will fail

I doubt there's any source traffic from Calcutta to Hanoi all year round. 6E will have to rely on connecting traffic from other larger markets -DEL/BOM/BLR to connect and fill up the flights on Calcutta-Hanoi. This will be seasonal traffic again. Also, they'd be the typical traffic that's already done a lot of Bangkok/Dubai trips and want some place new and exotic, yet near.
But again, connecting at CCU wouldn't be so pleasant, because of the poor infrastructure and issues of re check-in.
 
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unrave
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:03 pm

SpiceJet opens BOM-HKG for sale for flights starting 30SEP19. SG already flies to HKG from DEL.
Denial of racism is as egregious as racism itself
 
anshabhi
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:21 pm

lightsaber wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Why doesn’t the Government bring in fresh thinking to the airline sector? For instance, could they designate “Kannur” airport to be an “open skies” airport so flights from this airport to other countries would not count towards the bilaterals.

It could be set up as a test “demonstration” policy valid for say 3 years. If an independent agency determines that during the period, it was a net benefit to the country and the people it should be made permanent for Kannur.

Why Kannur? It is a brand new airport run by a public and private partnership. foreign carriers wouldn’t be able to milk it for premium passengers and 5th freedom traffic. Nevertheless, foreign carriers such as Qatar, Kuwait, Oman, UAE, etc, would likely jump on board because existing bilaterals are chocked and this is an avenue to keep open a pipeline to the Indian market. Plus there are a ton of Keralites in the gulf looking for available flights to get home.

c’mon politicians; steal my idea and claim it as your own. I don’t care. Get some fresh thinking! Heck, if this project succeeds, maybe the North East could also be opened up for open skies.


10 years down the line if this idea kills the intl ambition of Indian Airlines will you take the blame?

Would these foreign airlines set up their aircraft bases in India?? Will they give employment to Indians? Will they cause an inflow or out flow of Forex?

Policies are not supposed to be made with a myopic view. Long term impact of any decision is properly studied first.

Dubai used such a wayport to tremendous success. Why couldn't India? If no risk is taken, no reward. But it must be the same in reverse. Also, much longer than 3 years. Also, a moderate O&D airport would be better. I suggest HYD.

Any domestic India connections would have to be Indian airlines. Indian airlines would have to receive equal access and fair slots.

This is a way to take so many routes from the ME3. Without such fresh thinking, the Indian airlines will never become international powerhouses to be discussed in the same group as LH, BA, TK, and EK. They should get there.

Lightsaber


Best of luck getting slot rogue States like Dubai, China, Hong Kong and others to release slots especially prime time slots to Indian airlines.

About Dubai Vs India: There's very little traffic which originates in Dubai. Back in 2000 it was even more negligible. Opening their small island back then was a no risk only gain move for them.
India on the other hand has a huge originating traffic. Giving free access to such a precious resource to foreign airlines is like wilfully signing Treaty of Versailles
 
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lightsaber
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:42 pm

anshabhi wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
anshabhi wrote:

10 years down the line if this idea kills the intl ambition of Indian Airlines will you take the blame?

Would these foreign airlines set up their aircraft bases in India?? Will they give employment to Indians? Will they cause an inflow or out flow of Forex?

Policies are not supposed to be made with a myopic view. Long term impact of any decision is properly studied first.

Dubai used such a wayport to tremendous success. Why couldn't India? If no risk is taken, no reward. But it must be the same in reverse. Also, much longer than 3 years. Also, a moderate O&D airport would be better. I suggest HYD.

Any domestic India connections would have to be Indian airlines. Indian airlines would have to receive equal access and fair slots.

This is a way to take so many routes from the ME3. Without such fresh thinking, the Indian airlines will never become international powerhouses to be discussed in the same group as LH, BA, TK, and EK. They should get there.

Lightsaber


Best of luck getting slot rogue States like Dubai, China, Hong Kong and others to release slots especially prime time slots to Indian airlines.

About Dubai Vs India: There's very little traffic which originates in Dubai. Back in 2000 it was even more negligible. Opening their small island back then was a no risk only gain move for them.
India on the other hand has a huge originating traffic. Giving free access to such a precious resource to foreign airlines is like wilfully signing Treaty of Versailles


I disagree. I see it as a great opportunity as long as the conditions I stipulated are maintained.

Dubai built a good O&D off of a wayport. In other words, went from almost nothing more than a fuel stop the the regional banking, distribution, tourist, and oil management center in an Emirate with little oil.

I see the selected Indian city, at a minimum, becoming a distribution and tourism powerhouse.

Think about the rights to UK, Germany, France, Australia, Indonesia, Thailand, and Africa.

India is at a far better geographic location for hubbing Asia to Africa than anyone else. Ideal location for the Kangaroo route. An excellent location for EU to SE Asia too.

Only by taking the risk will India thrive. Everyone was certain EK would be blown out of the water by EU airlines. Instead they became one of the global majors.

India has the advantage of exclusive rights for domestic connections. With the right infrastructure, the economy of the host city would be the fastest growing in India. Long term, the home airline has the advantage.

There is a reason I exclude the top Indian O&D cities. Spark a tourism and business revolution in a new city.

Lightsaber
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avier
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:01 pm

lightsaber wrote:
There is a reason I exclude the top Indian O&D cities. Spark a tourism and business revolution in a new city.

True. The top Indian cities should preserve their infrastructure for the large O&D traffic they have and not for hubbing purposes to carry traffic to a third country. Would choke them further if they did that. HYD, as you suggest, is a great example for setting up such a hub. They offer low taxes on fuel too and have scope for much further expansion. Maybe the new Goa airport would be another great location for such a hub, as Goa would serve also as a nice tourist destination on a transit basis.
 
aarbee
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:02 pm

unrave wrote:
AirIndia wrote:
The CFM deal while being cost effective and Pratt being proactive bla bla bla.... the truth is that many corporates had placed embargos on 6E travel for executive if the flight wasa NEO.... and 6E was aware of this issue and maybe at some level this was an influencer as well....

Really? This is news to us.

This is quite interesting. Does one know while booking or checking in, if it is a CEO or NEO? What happens if it is a last minute or after ticketing, equipment change?
Love the AIXes
 
aarbee
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:05 pm

anshabhi wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Why doesn’t the Government bring in fresh thinking to the airline sector? For instance, could they designate “Kannur” airport to be an “open skies” airport so flights from this airport to other countries would not count towards the bilaterals.

It could be set up as a test “demonstration” policy valid for say 3 years. If an independent agency determines that during the period, it was a net benefit to the country and the people it should be made permanent for Kannur.

Why Kannur? It is a brand new airport run by a public and private partnership. foreign carriers wouldn’t be able to milk it for premium passengers and 5th freedom traffic. Nevertheless, foreign carriers such as Qatar, Kuwait, Oman, UAE, etc, would likely jump on board because existing bilaterals are chocked and this is an avenue to keep open a pipeline to the Indian market. Plus there are a ton of Keralites in the gulf looking for available flights to get home.

c’mon politicians; steal my idea and claim it as your own. I don’t care. Get some fresh thinking! Heck, if this project succeeds, maybe the North East could also be opened up for open skies.


10 years down the line if this idea kills the intl ambition of Indian Airlines will you take the blame?

Would these foreign airlines set up their aircraft bases in India?? Will they give employment to Indians? Will they cause an inflow or out flow of Forex?

Policies are not supposed to be made with a myopic view. Long term impact of any decision is properly studied first.

That's the point. It is not just sitting here on A.NET forums formulating policies, without a proper understanding on Indian government functioning.
Love the AIXes
 
aarbee
Posts: 416
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:12 pm

lightsaber wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
edealinfo wrote:
Why doesn’t the Government bring in fresh thinking to the airline sector? For instance, could they designate “Kannur” airport to be an “open skies” airport so flights from this airport to other countries would not count towards the bilaterals.

It could be set up as a test “demonstration” policy valid for say 3 years. If an independent agency determines that during the period, it was a net benefit to the country and the people it should be made permanent for Kannur.

Why Kannur? It is a brand new airport run by a public and private partnership. foreign carriers wouldn’t be able to milk it for premium passengers and 5th freedom traffic. Nevertheless, foreign carriers such as Qatar, Kuwait, Oman, UAE, etc, would likely jump on board because existing bilaterals are chocked and this is an avenue to keep open a pipeline to the Indian market. Plus there are a ton of Keralites in the gulf looking for available flights to get home.

c’mon politicians; steal my idea and claim it as your own. I don’t care. Get some fresh thinking! Heck, if this project succeeds, maybe the North East could also be opened up for open skies.


10 years down the line if this idea kills the intl ambition of Indian Airlines will you take the blame?

Would these foreign airlines set up their aircraft bases in India?? Will they give employment to Indians? Will they cause an inflow or out flow of Forex?

Policies are not supposed to be made with a myopic view. Long term impact of any decision is properly studied first.

Dubai used such a wayport to tremendous success. Why couldn't India? If no risk is taken, no reward. But it must be the same in reverse. Also, much longer than 3 years. Also, a moderate O&D airport would be better. I suggest HYD.

That's not at all fair comparison.

One city Imarat, having some access to funds and not needing to spend on more pressing social issues converts into a world trading hub and provides some tourism opportunities versus India. Setting it in one city among a diverse geography would be apples to oranges.
lightsaber wrote:
Any domestic India connections would have to be Indian airlines. Indian airlines would have to receive equal access and fair slots.

This is a way to take so many routes from the ME3. Without such fresh thinking, the Indian airlines will never become international powerhouses to be discussed in the same group as LH, BA, TK, and EK. They should get there.

Lightsaber
Last edited by aarbee on Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Love the AIXes
 
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CPS001
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Re: Indian Aviation Thread - June 2019

Wed Jun 26, 2019 5:28 pm

unrave wrote:
SpiceJet opens BOM-HKG for sale for flights starting 30SEP19. SG already flies to HKG from DEL.
Bookings are open from 31st July itself.

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