PerthBoy1987
Topic Author
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:59 am

F50 Questions

Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:06 am

Hi everyone,

I'm.new on this site. I registered about 15 minutes ago. Nice to meet you all. I'm not a pilot but I am very much into aviation. I do feel a little hesitant to create a thread because I sort of feel out of place as I'm not a pilot but one thing we all have is the "aviation bug" and well...what a great bug it is to have.

i wanted to talk about my favourite turboprop aircraft (I hope that's ok and if not then I apologise) which is the Fokker 50. I flew on the F50 for many years with Skywest to Carnarvon (CVQ) and I always enjoyed the flights. I love in Perth. Also a special hello to those people who worked on the Skywest F50s (pilots, flight attendants, ground crew, engineers etc).

These are just random questions that I have always wanted to ask:

How did the F50 compare against similar sized turbo prop aircraft such as the Dash 8-300?

Do people think that there was still a need for F50s in WA?? I know VA (Virgin Australia) got rid of them (sold them) but they did so well in WA for a long time. I know Alliance operates them in S.A and QLD and I assume they are doing well there.

I have often heard people call the F50 "Slow Tug Boat" Why is that? I assume they are referring to the F50s speed? What is the F50s max cruising speed? The F50 data on this site...is it correct?

Anyways these are a few questions to get the ball rolling.


Cheers.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2808
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: F50 Questions

Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:40 am

A quick glance at the internet suggests a cruise speed of around 270 knots, a tad faster than the ATR, but much slower than a jet.
As for economics, it burns the same amount of fuel as an ATR 72, but the latter will easily take 20 additional passengers. Compared to the ATR 42, it has a higher fuel burn for roughly the same amount of passengers.

And finally, the Fokker 50s are only getting older. As good as they were, a plane only lasts so long before maintenance costs start rising.
 
MHG
Posts: 902
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:33 am

Re: F50 Questions

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:38 am

Aside from the fact that F50´s are getting older (and are not in production anymore for quite a while now...) it is a heavy airframe in comparison to more modern aircraft of he same size/capacity.
I compared it with Dash8-300 and ATR-42 and the F50´s has the highest empty weight (F50 = 12570kgs / Dash 8-300 = 11790 kgs / ATR 42-300 = 11050 kgs)
Every kg "overweight" does cost additional fuel (and landing/handling fees etc.).
So, despite the known rugged reliability of the F50´s airframe it´s the fuel and maintenance costs that eventually make it uneconomical to operate.

Still, I like the F50 as much as you do as it is the most comfortable turboprop of its size in my personal experience.
I will miss ist when the last ones are gone ...
Flying is not inherently dangerous but it is very unforgiving in case of carelessness, incapacity or neglect.
 
PerthBoy1987
Topic Author
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:59 am

Re: F50 Questions

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:37 am

So ask a question in regards to your answer about the weight. ..

Why are F50s heavier then similar size turboprop such as the Dash 8-300 and ATR-42??

Why would Fokker make them so heavy? Is it for extra strength?
 
PerthBoy1987
Topic Author
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:59 am

Re: F50 Questions

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:43 am

And also, this is the info about the F50 on airliners.net in regards to speed:

Series 100 - Max cruising speed 532km/h (287kt), economical cruising speed 454km/h (245kt). Max operating altitude 25,000ft. Range with 50 passengers and reserves 2055km (1110nm), or 2822km (1524nm) for optional high gross weight version.

Series 300 - Typical cruising speed 526km/h (284kt). Range with 50 passengers and reserves at high speed cruise 2033km (1097nm), or 3017km (1628nm) for high gross weight option at long range cruise.


So a question..is the info above in regards to speed correct? I ask because different websites have different info
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2808
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: F50 Questions

Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:47 am

PerthBoy1987 wrote:
So ask a question in regards to your answer about the weight. ..

Why are F50s heavier then similar size turboprop such as the Dash 8-300 and ATR-42??

Why would Fokker make them so heavy? Is it for extra strength?


Because it is an older aircraft. It's essentially a reengined Fokker 27. It was designed for a time where extra weight meant little, ticket prices were high and runways more often weren't paved. It also didn't have access to modern design techniques and computer aided design. Ultimately, all those tiny things just add up.

It also suffers a bit from the Q400 overbuilt syndrome, where the competitors cut away all extras in the name of lower costs and simplicity.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2808
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: F50 Questions

Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:53 am

PerthBoy1987 wrote:
And also, this is the info about the F50 on airliners.net in regards to speed:

Series 100 - Max cruising speed 532km/h (287kt), economical cruising speed 454km/h (245kt). Max operating altitude 25,000ft. Range with 50 passengers and reserves 2055km (1110nm), or 2822km (1524nm) for optional high gross weight version.

Series 300 - Typical cruising speed 526km/h (284kt). Range with 50 passengers and reserves at high speed cruise 2033km (1097nm), or 3017km (1628nm) for high gross weight option at long range cruise.


So a question..is the info above in regards to speed correct? I ask because different websites have different info


Speeds are tricky. They depend on weight, altitude and conditions. Typical cruise speeds and max operating speeds are often mixed up. Same with IAS, TAS and GS. An ATR 72 can do 200 knots IAS and 275 TAS at the same time. You need to find accurate indication, best found in a QRH/manual of some sort.
 
PerthBoy1987
Topic Author
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:59 am

Re: F50 Questions

Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:35 am

I have heard that the F50 does do between 270 knots TAS (500 km p/h) and 275 knots TAS (510 km p/h).

So maybe those speeds on airliners.net are accurate and maybe 287 knots as it says for max cruise speed is correct but who knows.

If we want to compare the F50 with a similar sized turboprop like the Dash 8-300 and Antonov-24 then it would be similar to those two aircraft.
 
User avatar
qf789
Moderator
Posts: 8607
Joined: Thu Feb 05, 2015 3:42 pm

Re: F50 Questions

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:20 am

PerthBoy1987 wrote:

Do people think that there was still a need for F50s in WA?? I know VA (Virgin Australia) got rid of them (sold them) but they did so well in WA for a long time. I know Alliance operates them in S.A and QLD and I assume they are doing well there.


No there is no need for them here in WA. VARA retired them when they ended services to ALH, RVT and EPR, mainly due to these routes being subsidized by the state government and VARA did not seek to continue the tender. REX came in with their 34 seat Saab 340B aircraft which are a better suited aircraft for the routes. After about a year REX also started CVQ and MJK. With VARA also cancelling services to GET soon, I would expect REX a better suited option there to. At the time the F50's were retired VA was to simplify its fleet, the got rid of the E90's out of mainline and the F50's out of VARA and focused on F100's and A320's instead. The F100's are coming up to the end of their flying life as well, while a very good aircraft for intra WA flying are approaching their use by date, they require lots of maintenance and their fuel burn alone is very similar to that of operating a 737/A320 aircraft on the same route.
Forum Moderator
 
factsonly
Posts: 2693
Joined: Mon Aug 06, 2012 3:08 pm

Re: F50 Questions

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:48 am

The Fokker 50 (officially Fokker F27-Mk50) was the Rolls-Royce of the turboprops, with a Fokker Aircraft guarantee of 90.000 FH and 90.000 cycles.
Compare those numbers with more modern air-frames and you will see that the Fokker 50 was built to last.

Here are the Fokker 50 performance data:

- Cruise speed 270 KTAS 500 KPH
- Maximum speed 230 KCAS M.507
- Minimum approach speed 100 KTS 185 KPH
- Ceiling 25,000 ft 7,620

You will find all official Fokker 50 data here:

http://www.flyfokker.com/Fokker_50
 
Svenie
Posts: 3
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2018 10:58 am

Re: F50 Questions

Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:20 pm

KLM and Cityjet want to start together a new airline named Air-Antwerp, flying Fokker 50

request for a new AOC is pending.

source : https://airwaysmag.com/airlines/air-ant ... -left-off/

interesting why they choose the Fokker 50... ?

low leaseprices? airport restrictions? what about mx?
 
PerthBoy1987
Topic Author
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:59 am

Re: F50 Questions

Sun Jun 02, 2019 12:50 pm

factsonly wrote:
The Fokker 50 (officially Fokker F27-Mk50) was the Rolls-Royce of the turboprops, with a Fokker Aircraft guarantee of 90.000 FH and 90.000 cycles.
Compare those numbers with more modern air-frames and you will see that the Fokker 50 was built to last.

Here are the Fokker 50 performance data:

- Cruise speed 270 KTAS 500 KPH
- Maximum speed 230 KCAS M.507
- Minimum approach speed 100 KTS 185 KPH
- Ceiling 25,000 ft 7,620

You will find all official Fokker 50 data here:

http://www.flyfokker.com/Fokker_50



What's "KCAS"? Also the cruise speed of 270 KTAS...is the 270 max KTAS? I always thought it was a tad quicker then 270
 
PerthBoy1987
Topic Author
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:59 am

Re: F50 Questions

Sun Jun 02, 2019 1:03 pm

Also..I always thought the F50 and the Dash 8-300 had similar speeds...they are similar 50 seat aircraft
 
VSMUT
Posts: 2808
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: F50 Questions

Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:27 pm

PerthBoy1987 wrote:
What's "KCAS"? Also the cruise speed of 270 KTAS...is the 270 max KTAS? I always thought it was a tad quicker then 270


Knots Calibrated Air Speed.

You need to go and read up on the different speeds used in flying: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airspeed# ... d_airspeed

IAS - Indicated Air Speed: The speed indicated on the instrument. Pretty much shows the air pressure as "the wings feel it". It is all about how many air molecules pass over the wings at a given moment, which is what keeps the plane flying.

CAS - Calibrated Air Speed: IAS corrected for various minor errors, such as the position of the instruments' sensor on the fuselage. Never seen it outside textbooks.

TAS - True Air Speed: The actual speed at which the air molecules go past the wings, regardless of density.

GS - Ground Speed: The TAS corrected for wind, so if you have a tailwind the GS will be higher, in a headwind it will be lower.


Again, the cruise speed depends on the load. A light Fokker 50 will maybe do more than 270 knots TAS, a heavy one will be slower.
 
Lapplander800
Posts: 87
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2018 4:56 pm

Re: F50 Questions

Sun Jun 02, 2019 2:37 pm

Svenie wrote:
interesting why they choose the Fokker 50... ?

low leaseprices? airport restrictions? what about mx?


You don't lease F50s today! Its not worth anyone's time drawing up the paperwork due to low value. You simply put them on your credit card!
 
MartijnNL
Posts: 699
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2017 11:44 am

Re: F50 Questions

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:45 pm

If I remember correctly I logged four Fokker 50 flights as a passenger. A return Amsterdam - Basel/Mulhouse in 1996 and a return Rotterdam - Paris Charles de Gaulle in 1998. I can hardly believe those experiences are already more than twenty years ago.

I think I remember that the windows were placed quite low in the fuselage, or the seats quite high, which, combined with the large engine, made looking outside rather difficult.

Maybe I should try to fly the Fokker 50 one more time in the near future. The type still flies in Sweden, not too far from the Netherlands.
 
PerthBoy1987
Topic Author
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:59 am

Re: F50 Questions

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:23 am

Apparently the F50 is an easy aircraft to fly
 
PerthBoy1987
Topic Author
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:59 am

Re: F50 Questions

Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:13 am

What's the range on F50? How far can it go without stopping?

I ask because in mid-December 2016 the last F50 in WA flew non-stop from Perth to Indonesia. It was a 7 hour and 23 minute flight. Yes it was a ferry flight so it had no pax apart from the two pilots and no cargo/luggage apart from the pilot's cases etc so the plane was empty and probably had maximum fuel
 
User avatar
SXI899
Posts: 230
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2008 9:02 pm

Re: F50 Questions

Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:49 am

PerthBoy1987 wrote:
What's the range on F50? How far can it go without stopping?

I ask because in mid-December 2016 the last F50 in WA flew non-stop from Perth to Indonesia. It was a 7 hour and 23 minute flight. Yes it was a ferry flight so it had no pax apart from the two pilots and no cargo/luggage apart from the pilot's cases etc so the plane was empty and probably had maximum fuel

When we did F50 ferry flights (with my old employer), we’d work on a ballpark figure of around 1700-1800nm max (depending on winds). Perth-Indonesia was a fairly comfortable leg.
With pax, I’d estimate around it’d be more like 1000nm.
We deliver......
 
User avatar
FlyRow
Posts: 671
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:05 pm

Re: F50 Questions

Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:51 am

PerthBoy1987 wrote:
What's the range on F50? How far can it go without stopping?

I ask because in mid-December 2016 the last F50 in WA flew non-stop from Perth to Indonesia. It was a 7 hour and 23 minute flight. Yes it was a ferry flight so it had no pax apart from the two pilots and no cargo/luggage apart from the pilot's cases etc so the plane was empty and probably had maximum fuel


Not to bitch, you know there is a website called wikipedia which has tons of this data available at a glance?

Do love the old fokker though, I live near RTM and the sound of them flying over is missed very much!
F70-F100-RJ85-RJ70-E190-319-320-321-733-734-735-737-738-752-753-763-764-772-744-380
 
PerthBoy1987
Topic Author
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:59 am

Re: F50 Questions

Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:29 am

SXI899 wrote:
PerthBoy1987 wrote:
What's the range on F50? How far can it go without stopping?

I ask because in mid-December 2016 the last F50 in WA flew non-stop from Perth to Indonesia. It was a 7 hour and 23 minute flight. Yes it was a ferry flight so it had no pax apart from the two pilots and no cargo/luggage apart from the pilot's cases etc so the plane was empty and probably had maximum fuel

When we did F50 ferry flights (with my old employer), we’d work on a ballpark figure of around 1700-1800nm max (depending on winds). Perth-Indonesia was a fairly comfortable leg.
With pax, I’d estimate around it’d be more like 1000nm.



So 1000nm is how much in kilometres?
 
PerthBoy1987
Topic Author
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:59 am

Re: F50 Questions

Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:30 am

FlyRow wrote:
PerthBoy1987 wrote:
What's the range on F50? How far can it go without stopping?

I ask because in mid-December 2016 the last F50 in WA flew non-stop from Perth to Indonesia. It was a 7 hour and 23 minute flight. Yes it was a ferry flight so it had no pax apart from the two pilots and no cargo/luggage apart from the pilot's cases etc so the plane was empty and probably had maximum fuel


Not to bitch, you know there is a website called wikipedia which has tons of this data available at a glance?

Do love the old fokker though, I live near RTM and the sound of them flying over is missed very much!



Yes I'm aware of information which is available on Wikipedia but information on Wikipedia is not always accurate hence why I am asking questions on this forum so that I get the correct answers.

Cheers.
 
User avatar
vhqpa
Posts: 1615
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2005 8:21 pm

Re: F50 Questions

Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:53 am

PerthBoy1987 wrote:
SXI899 wrote:
PerthBoy1987 wrote:
What's the range on F50? How far can it go without stopping?

I ask because in mid-December 2016 the last F50 in WA flew non-stop from Perth to Indonesia. It was a 7 hour and 23 minute flight. Yes it was a ferry flight so it had no pax apart from the two pilots and no cargo/luggage apart from the pilot's cases etc so the plane was empty and probably had maximum fuel

When we did F50 ferry flights (with my old employer), we’d work on a ballpark figure of around 1700-1800nm max (depending on winds). Perth-Indonesia was a fairly comfortable leg.
With pax, I’d estimate around it’d be more like 1000nm.



So 1000nm is how much in kilometres?


1,852 km
"There you go ladies and gentleman we're through Mach 1 the speed of sound no bumps no bangs... CONCORDE"
 
Cunard
Posts: 2390
Joined: Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:45 pm

Re: F50 Questions

Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:57 pm

PerthBoy1987 wrote:
FlyRow wrote:
PerthBoy1987 wrote:
What's the range on F50? How far can it go without stopping?

I ask because in mid-December 2016 the last F50 in WA flew non-stop from Perth to Indonesia. It was a 7 hour and 23 minute flight. Yes it was a ferry flight so it had no pax apart from the two pilots and no cargo/luggage apart from the pilot's cases etc so the plane was empty and probably had maximum fuel


Not to bitch, you know there is a website called wikipedia which has tons of this data available at a glance?

Do love the old fokker though, I live near RTM and the sound of them flying over is missed very much!



Yes I'm aware of information which is available on Wikipedia but information on Wikipedia is not always accurate hence why I am asking questions on this forum so that I get the correct answers.

Cheers.


With respect but all of the answers to your questions that have so far been supplied by other posters are to be found on Wikipedia.

Your getting snippets of information here whereas Wikipedia gives you a more comprehensive history and information of the aircraft.

Wikipedia is always the best source to read and with due respect it's usually correct at least 99% of the time!

BTW you could have easily converted NM to KM online rather than ask here!
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
PerthBoy1987
Topic Author
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:59 am

Re: F50 Questions

Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:35 am

Cunard wrote:
PerthBoy1987 wrote:
FlyRow wrote:

Not to bitch, you know there is a website called wikipedia which has tons of this data available at a glance?

Do love the old fokker though, I live near RTM and the sound of them flying over is missed very much!



Yes I'm aware of information which is available on Wikipedia but information on Wikipedia is not always accurate hence why I am asking questions on this forum so that I get the correct answers.

Cheers.


With respect but all of the answers to your questions that have so far been supplied by other posters are to be found on Wikipedia.

Your getting snippets of information here whereas Wikipedia gives you a more comprehensive history and information of the aircraft.

Wikipedia is always the best source to read and with due respect it's usually correct at least 99% of the time!

BTW you could have easily converted NM to KM online rather than ask here!


So is there a problem with me asking questions?
 
User avatar
FlyRow
Posts: 671
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:05 pm

Re: F50 Questions

Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:51 am

PerthBoy1987 wrote:
Cunard wrote:
PerthBoy1987 wrote:


Yes I'm aware of information which is available on Wikipedia but information on Wikipedia is not always accurate hence why I am asking questions on this forum so that I get the correct answers.

Cheers.


With respect but all of the answers to your questions that have so far been supplied by other posters are to be found on Wikipedia.

Your getting snippets of information here whereas Wikipedia gives you a more comprehensive history and information of the aircraft.

Wikipedia is always the best source to read and with due respect it's usually correct at least 99% of the time!

BTW you could have easily converted NM to KM online rather than ask here!


So is there a problem with me asking questions?

Is there a problem with me combining past and future factoids questions in a single answer.
F70-F100-RJ85-RJ70-E190-319-320-321-733-734-735-737-738-752-753-763-764-772-744-380
 
iceberg210
Posts: 335
Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2005 12:11 pm

Re: F50 Questions

Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:54 am

I know that Fokker's bankruptcy pretty much ended any ability for it to be offered, but would a F60 have been competitive with the Q400 and ATR72, or would it have had the same economic and weight issues theF50 sounds like had?
Erik Berg
Defying Gravity
 
PerthBoy1987
Topic Author
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:59 am

Re: F50 Questions

Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:18 pm

iceberg210 wrote:
I know that Fokker's bankruptcy pretty much ended any ability for it to be offered, but would a F60 have been competitive with the Q400 and ATR72, or would it have had the same economic and weight issues theF50 sounds like had?


Well there was only four F60s made. They are used by the Dutch Air force I think?

Question - what are the differences between the F50 and F60? Is the F60 faster?

Also, despite the F59 being heavy..it's still a good aircraft.
 
MEA-707
Posts: 3729
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 1999 4:51 am

Re: F50 Questions

Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:16 pm

PerthBoy1987 wrote:
So ask a question in regards to your answer about the weight. ..

Why are F50s heavier then similar size turboprop such as the Dash 8-300 and ATR-42??

Why would Fokker make them so heavy? Is it for extra strength?

Of course when Fokker rolled out the 50 in 1986, they were asked why it was heavier and more expensive then the ATR-42 which was already operational at that time. The 50 was selling OK but due to that, they lost a few bids to ATR, especially Finnair and Simmons Air (operating as American Eagle) were huge disappointments in Amsterdam. Fokker defended it by telling the Fokker 50 was more sturdy. The long undercarriage struts coming out of the engines were heavy but made the aircraft better in landing on unpaved runways, where the ATR could more easily topple over and damage a wingtip. Also things like deicing and soundproofing was better (but making the aircraft heavier and more expensive). Unfortunately some airlines found out the hard way that the early ATR was missing some things regarding deicing.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
User avatar
FlyRow
Posts: 671
Joined: Mon Mar 21, 2016 10:05 pm

Re: F50 Questions

Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:08 pm

PerthBoy1987 wrote:
iceberg210 wrote:
I know that Fokker's bankruptcy pretty much ended any ability for it to be offered, but would a F60 have been competitive with the Q400 and ATR72, or would it have had the same economic and weight issues theF50 sounds like had?


Well there was only four F60s made. They are used by the Dutch Air force I think?

Question - what are the differences between the F50 and F60? Is the F60 faster?

Also, despite the F59 being heavy..it's still a good aircraft.


F27 Mark 0604
Marketed as the Fokker 60, same as the 0502 with an increased fuselage length (1.02 m/3.34 ft in front of wing and 0.80 m/2.63 ft aft of wing), increased design weight and introduction of a large cargo door in the forward right side of the fuselage. Two Pratt & Whitney PW127B turboprop engines, four built

Now with the Peru Air Force.

Source: wiki.
F70-F100-RJ85-RJ70-E190-319-320-321-733-734-735-737-738-752-753-763-764-772-744-380
 
User avatar
FredrikHAD
Posts: 418
Joined: Thu Aug 06, 2015 9:44 pm

Re: F50 Questions

Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:27 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
Maybe I should try to fly the Fokker 50 one more time in the near future. The type still flies in Sweden, not too far from the Netherlands.

BRA (Braathens regional airlines) has four, all in service, flying more or less daily to some destinations. I used to fly them from HAD when Skyways was still around. It’s a nice, rather quiet aircraft but they’re all getting old. I do prefer the ATR72, especially the -600 we usually see here.

/Fredrik
 
PerthBoy1987
Topic Author
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:59 am

Re: F50 Questions

Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:09 am

MEA-707 wrote:
PerthBoy1987 wrote:
So ask a question in regards to your answer about the weight. ..

Why are F50s heavier then similar size turboprop such as the Dash 8-300 and ATR-42??

Why would Fokker make them so heavy? Is it for extra strength?

Of course when Fokker rolled out the 50 in 1986, they were asked why it was heavier and more expensive then the ATR-42 which was already operational at that time. The 50 was selling OK but due to that, they lost a few bids to ATR, especially Finnair and Simmons Air (operating as American Eagle) were huge disappointments in Amsterdam. Fokker defended it by telling the Fokker 50 was more sturdy. The long undercarriage struts coming out of the engines were heavy but made the aircraft better in landing on unpaved runways, where the ATR could more easily topple over and damage a wingtip. Also things like deicing and soundproofing was better (but making the aircraft heavier and more expensive). Unfortunately some airlines found out the hard way that the early ATR was missing some things regarding deicing.



Sounds like the F50 was and still is a tough aircraft despite it being a touch more expensive due it being heavy.
 
PerthBoy1987
Topic Author
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:59 am

Re: F50 Questions

Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:11 am

FredrikHAD wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
Maybe I should try to fly the Fokker 50 one more time in the near future. The type still flies in Sweden, not too far from the Netherlands.

BRA (Braathens regional airlines) has four, all in service, flying more or less daily to some destinations. I used to fly them from HAD when Skyways was still around. It’s a nice, rather quiet aircraft but they’re all getting old. I do prefer the ATR72, especially the -600 we usually see here.

/Fredrik


I find the F50 a loud aircraft when taxing to gates if your nearby. Can effect hearing for a spotter.

I think the F60 has same cruise speed as F60.

Also I see Alliance Airlines operates F50 in Australia
 
oldannyboy
Posts: 2316
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 8:28 am

Re: F50 Questions

Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:32 am

Lovely aircraft the F50. Built to last, with quality materials. Very comfortable too. Quiets, stable, rock solid, with a big-jet feel handling characteristics. So much nicer than the Dash-8/300. No comparison.
 
A320FlyGuy
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 8:31 pm

Re: F50 Questions

Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:29 am

L
PerthBoy1987 wrote:
FredrikHAD wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
Maybe I should try to fly the Fokker 50 one more time in the near future. The type still flies in Sweden, not too far from the Netherlands.

BRA (Braathens regional airlines) has four, all in service, flying more or less daily to some destinations. I used to fly them from HAD when Skyways was still around. It’s a nice, rather quiet aircraft but they’re all getting old. I do prefer the ATR72, especially the -600 we usually see here.

/Fredrik


I find the F50 a loud aircraft when taxing to gates if your nearby. Can effect hearing for a spotter.

I think the F60 has same cruise speed as F60.

Also I see Alliance Airlines operates F50 in Australia


Around here, people don’t tolerate questions being asked when the information is freely available both on this website and on other common sources. Your question about converting range from miles to kilometres was really shooting yourself in the foot....hardly a necessary post when you could have googled it. Asking questions in the pursuit of knowledge is fine...but being to lazy to find basic information yourself is, well, annoying to say the least.
My other car is an A320-200
 
PerthBoy1987
Topic Author
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:59 am

Re: F50 Questions

Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:04 pm

A320FlyGuy wrote:
L
PerthBoy1987 wrote:
FredrikHAD wrote:
BRA (Braathens regional airlines) has four, all in service, flying more or less daily to some destinations. I used to fly them from HAD when Skyways was still around. It’s a nice, rather quiet aircraft but they’re all getting old. I do prefer the ATR72, especially the -600 we usually see here.

/Fredrik


I find the F50 a loud aircraft when taxing to gates if your nearby. Can effect hearing for a spotter.

I think the F60 has same cruise speed as F60.

Also I see Alliance Airlines operates F50 in Australia


Around here, people don’t tolerate questions being asked when the information is freely available both on this website and on other common sources. Your question about converting range from miles to kilometres was really shooting yourself in the foot....hardly a necessary post when you could have googled it. Asking questions in the pursuit of knowledge is fine...but being to lazy to find basic information yourself is, well, annoying to say the least.



How do you know I was being lazy? Are you a mind reader? Fact is i wasnt being lazy as you suggest.
 
Flanker7
Posts: 304
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2008 4:38 pm

Re: F50 Questions

Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:19 pm

PerthBoy1987 wrote:
A320FlyGuy wrote:
L
PerthBoy1987 wrote:

I find the F50 a loud aircraft when taxing to gates if your nearby. Can effect hearing for a spotter.

I think the F60 has same cruise speed as F60.

Also I see Alliance Airlines operates F50 in Australia


Around here, people don’t tolerate questions being asked when the information is freely available both on this website and on other common sources. Your question about converting range from miles to kilometres was really shooting yourself in the foot....hardly a necessary post when you could have googled it. Asking questions in the pursuit of knowledge is fine...but being to lazy to find basic information yourself is, well, annoying to say the least.



How do you know I was being lazy? Are you a mind reader? Fact is i wasnt being lazy as you suggest.


What people are suggesting is that you do you're own research a little better. Like others have mentioned most of you're questions can be found on the web or on this site.
Flying blue only if possible
 
A320FlyGuy
Posts: 260
Joined: Wed May 16, 2012 8:31 pm

Re: F50 Questions

Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:14 pm

PerthBoy1987 wrote:
A320FlyGuy wrote:
L
PerthBoy1987 wrote:

I find the F50 a loud aircraft when taxing to gates if your nearby. Can effect hearing for a spotter.

I think the F60 has same cruise speed as F60.

Also I see Alliance Airlines operates F50 in Australia


Around here, people don’t tolerate questions being asked when the information is freely available both on this website and on other common sources. Your question about converting range from miles to kilometres was really shooting yourself in the foot....hardly a necessary post when you could have googled it. Asking questions in the pursuit of knowledge is fine...but being to lazy to find basic information yourself is, well, annoying to say the least.



How do you know I was being lazy? Are you a mind reader? Fact is i wasnt being lazy as you suggest.


You asked in a specific post how to convert miles to km - you could have typed that into the address bar in your browser. Where I come from, that's lazy.

And yes, I am a mind reader....I'm also a witch. When my A320 is grounded I zap from place to place, reigning terror on CRJ navigation systems for kicks.
My other car is an A320-200
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 322
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: F50 Questions

Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:50 am

The original F-27 had those huge passenger windows!

The F-27 Airliner lost its character and became more of a regional airliner in the form of the F-50.

Trouble for Fokker was there were better alternatives available and on the horizon.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
vfw614
Posts: 3773
Joined: Mon Dec 10, 2001 12:34 am

Re: F50 Questions

Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:59 am

To me, the Fokker 50 always had more "true airliner" feel than its competitors. What I found interesting was that when all those 50 seater turboprops came on the market 30-35 years ago (ATR42, DHC8-300, Saab 2000, Fokker 50), the Fokker 50 apparently was the darling of European legacy/flag carriers. Airlines like Lufthansa, Swissair, Austrian, SAS, Aer Lingus, KLM, Luxair, Maersk or Air UK all went for the Fokker 50.
 
Bostrom
Posts: 774
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: F50 Questions

Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:12 am

FredrikHAD wrote:
MartijnNL wrote:
Maybe I should try to fly the Fokker 50 one more time in the near future. The type still flies in Sweden, not too far from the Netherlands.

BRA (Braathens regional airlines) has four, all in service, flying more or less daily to some destinations. I used to fly them from HAD when Skyways was still around. It’s a nice, rather quiet aircraft but they’re all getting old. I do prefer the ATR72, especially the -600 we usually see here.

/Fredrik


True at the moment, but my guess is that the fleet will be reduced to three very soon.
 
PerthBoy1987
Topic Author
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:59 am

Re: F50 Questions

Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:57 pm

So I want to clear this up:

1. On a still day where there is no wind...TAS and GSPD (Ground Speed) are the same?

2. If an F50 is doing 270 knots TAS, but there is a tail wind of 30 knots..the GSPD is 300 knots?

3. Which would mean if the F50 was doing 270 knots TAS but there was a head wind of 30 knots then the GSPD would be 240 knots?
 
LH707330
Posts: 2189
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:27 pm

Re: F50 Questions

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:19 pm

PerthBoy1987 wrote:
So I want to clear this up:

1. On a still day where there is no wind...TAS and GSPD (Ground Speed) are the same?

2. If an F50 is doing 270 knots TAS, but there is a tail wind of 30 knots..the GSPD is 300 knots?

3. Which would mean if the F50 was doing 270 knots TAS but there was a head wind of 30 knots then the GSPD would be 240 knots?

Yes to all three. Think about it like playing on the escalators or moving walkways: TAS is your walking speed, GS is your speed through the building.
 
PerthBoy1987
Topic Author
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:59 am

Re: F50 Questions

Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:47 am

LH707330 wrote:
PerthBoy1987 wrote:
So I want to clear this up:

1. On a still day where there is no wind...TAS and GSPD (Ground Speed) are the same?

2. If an F50 is doing 270 knots TAS, but there is a tail wind of 30 knots..the GSPD is 300 knots?

3. Which would mean if the F50 was doing 270 knots TAS but there was a head wind of 30 knots then the GSPD would be 240 knots?

Yes to all three. Think about it like playing on the escalators or moving walkways: TAS is your walking speed, GS is your speed through the building.



Cheers for the clarification mate. Yep you're right. Thays why in a way there is an emphasis on Ground Speed as in - it's information pilots have to know.

Also I was on this website it's called Ground Speed records. Each aircraft has their top 3 fastest ground speed. The F50 had one where the TAS was 298 knots and the GSPD was 415 knots. Must of been a strong tailwind that day lol
 
LH707330
Posts: 2189
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:27 pm

Re: F50 Questions

Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:27 am

Well, it was at least 117, that's only the tailwind component. If it was coming from an offset angle, then it could have been even stronger over the ground.
 
MHG
Posts: 902
Joined: Mon Dec 13, 2004 1:33 am

Re: F50 Questions

Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:19 am

Something that has not been explained properly here regarding the rather high weight of the frame is that it is not just heavy because it is derived from the earlier F-27 models but those were already overweight by todays standards.
The reason behind is that in the early 1950`s when the F-27 was designed they did not have computers to calculate the required exact dimensioning of every part to ensure its integrity is kept under all expected conditions with a precisely defined margin.
So, manufacturers (not just Fokker but every other as well) overdesigned parts in order to be "on the safe side" without knowing exactly where the parts limits are.
That ultimately led to heavier than neccessary airframes compared to modern constructions.
Just compare a SE210"Caravelle" to an A220 ...

In the case of the F50 you have to remember that it is a redesigned F27 and I am sure Fokker´s engineers tried hard to reduce dead weight in the redesign process as far as possible without compromising the existing structure´s integrity but there is always a point when an engineer cannot further reduce the dimension/weight of a part without compromising the whole structure.

So, the F50 was an attempt to build a "cheap" redesign rather than making a new clean sheet design which is way more expensive, of course.

Btw.: There is kind of a somewhat similar situation right now with Boeing´s 737Max as the initial construction dates back to the 1960´s.
It has been redesigend multiple times avoiding any clean sheet design to follow up which was (financially) a smart move for a long time on Boeings side.
Seems to me (my personal observation/opinion !!!) that the 737 frame has come to certain limits where a clean sheet narrow body design in good time would´ve been "smarter".
Now Boeing has started to work on such dubbed the 797 ...
In comparison when Airbus started the A320 it was a clean sheet thing which gave them a certain advantage and allowed them to compete successfully with Boeing and MDc ...

But Fokker simply did not have the financial resources to go for a clean sheet design - unfortunately.
Flying is not inherently dangerous but it is very unforgiving in case of carelessness, incapacity or neglect.
 
PerthBoy1987
Topic Author
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:59 am

Re: F50 Questions

Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:00 pm

MHG wrote:
Something that has not been explained properly here regarding the rather high weight of the frame is that it is not just heavy because it is derived from the earlier F-27 models but those were already overweight by todays standards.
The reason behind is that in the early 1950`s when the F-27 was designed they did not have computers to calculate the required exact dimensioning of every part to ensure its integrity is kept under all expected conditions with a precisely defined margin.
So, manufacturers (not just Fokker but every other as well) overdesigned parts in order to be "on the safe side" without knowing exactly where the parts limits are.
That ultimately led to heavier than neccessary airframes compared to modern constructions.
Just compare a SE210"Caravelle" to an A220 ...

In the case of the F50 you have to remember that it is a redesigned F27 and I am sure Fokker´s engineers tried hard to reduce dead weight in the redesign process as far as possible without compromising the existing structure´s integrity but there is always a point when an engineer cannot further reduce the dimension/weight of a part without compromising the whole structure.

So, the F50 was an attempt to build a "cheap" redesign rather than making a new clean sheet design which is way more expensive, of course.

Btw.: There is kind of a somewhat similar situation right now with Boeing´s 737Max as the initial construction dates back to the 1960´s.
It has been redesigend multiple times avoiding any clean sheet design to follow up which was (financially) a smart move for a long time on Boeings side.
Seems to me (my personal observation/opinion !!!) that the 737 frame has come to certain limits where a clean sheet narrow body design in good time would´ve been "smarter".
Now Boeing has started to work on such dubbed the 797 ...
In comparison when Airbus started the A320 it was a clean sheet thing which gave them a certain advantage and allowed them to compete successfully with Boeing and MDc ...

But Fokker simply did not have the financial resources to go for a clean sheet design - unfortunately.


Cheers for the info mate. Despite being strong..the F50 certainly is a strong tough aircraft. Probably one of the strongest 50-seat turboprops around.
 
PerthBoy1987
Topic Author
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:59 am

Re: F50 Questions

Sat Jun 22, 2019 1:04 pm

LH707330 wrote:
Well, it was at least 117, that's only the tailwind component. If it was coming from an offset angle, then it could have been even stronger over the ground.


See link below, it's a website for ground speed records. Click on Fokker and find the F50. There you will see the top 3 ground speed records for the F50 including the third one which has a picture which shows the ground speed being 415 knots and the TAS being 298. Normally F50s have a TAS of around 270 knots to 275 knots.

https://groundspeedrecords.com


Cheers.
 
Bostrom
Posts: 774
Joined: Tue Feb 02, 2016 7:11 pm

Re: F50 Questions

Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:38 pm

MartijnNL wrote:
Maybe I should try to fly the Fokker 50 one more time in the near future. The type still flies in Sweden, not too far from the Netherlands.


Your chances have just increased. Amapola flyg has just been awarded three PSO-routes that, starting in October, will be flown by F50s. Hemavan – Kramfors – Arlanda, Vilhelmina – Lycksele – Arlanda and Torsby – Hagfors – Arlanda.
 
PerthBoy1987
Topic Author
Posts: 23
Joined: Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:59 am

Re: F50 Questions

Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:08 pm

MHG wrote:
Something that has not been explained properly here regarding the rather high weight of the frame is that it is not just heavy because it is derived from the earlier F-27 models but those were already overweight by todays standards.
The reason behind is that in the early 1950`s when the F-27 was designed they did not have computers to calculate the required exact dimensioning of every part to ensure its integrity is kept under all expected conditions with a precisely defined margin.
So, manufacturers (not just Fokker but every other as well) overdesigned parts in order to be "on the safe side" without knowing exactly where the parts limits are.
That ultimately led to heavier than neccessary airframes compared to modern constructions.
Just compare a SE210"Caravelle" to an A220 ...

In the case of the F50 you have to remember that it is a redesigned F27 and I am sure Fokker´s engineers tried hard to reduce dead weight in the redesign process as far as possible without compromising the existing structure´s integrity but there is always a point when an engineer cannot further reduce the dimension/weight of a part without compromising the whole structure.

So, the F50 was an attempt to build a "cheap" redesign rather than making a new clean sheet design which is way more expensive, of course.

Btw.: There is kind of a somewhat similar situation right now with Boeing´s 737Max as the initial construction dates back to the 1960´s.
It has been redesigend multiple times avoiding any clean sheet design to follow up which was (financially) a smart move for a long time on Boeings side.
Seems to me (my personal observation/opinion !!!) that the 737 frame has come to certain limits where a clean sheet narrow body design in good time would´ve been "smarter".
Now Boeing has started to work on such dubbed the 797 ...
In comparison when Airbus started the A320 it was a clean sheet thing which gave them a certain advantage and allowed them to compete successfully with Boeing and MDc ...

But Fokker simply did not have the financial resources to go for a clean sheet design - unfortunately.



I see Alliance is the only operator of F50s in Australia these days. In fact I think Alliance changed the MTOW so that it was under the 20 tonne threshold which means they don't need security screening at Olympic Dam airport.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos