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Dutchy
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KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:55 am

The Flying-V is a design for a highly energy-efficient long-distance aeroplane. The aircraft’s design integrates the passenger cabin, the cargo hold and the fuel tanks in the wings, creating a spectacular v-shape. Its improved aerodynamic shape and reduced weight will mean it uses 20% less fuel than the Airbus A350, today’s most advanced aircraft.

In the Flying-V – originally an idea of TU Berlin student Justus Benad during his thesis project at Airbus Hamburg – the passenger cabin, cargo hold and fuel tanks are integrated in its wing structure. The design is not as long as an Airbus A350, but it has the same wing span. This allows the Flying-V to use the present infrastructure at airports, such as gates and runways. It even fits in the same hangar as an A350. The Flying-V carries about the same number of passengers - 314 in the standard configuration – and the same amount of cargo, 160 m3. Project leader at TU Delft, Dr. Roelof Vos: “The Flying-V is smaller than the A350 and has less inflow surface area compared to the available amount of volume. The result is less resistance. That means the Flying-V needs less fuel for the same distance.”


https://www.tudelft.nl/en/ae/flying-v/

Image

Interesting concept, a flying wing, but slightly different. KLM is one of the financiers of the project. So what do you think, will this kind of craft replace the A350 in 15 years?
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76er
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:12 am

It looks fantastic, and after almost a century with tube and wings it sure is time for something revolutionary. But 'only' a 20% reduction in fuel burn seems rather low to me, although it is also a testament to how far A&B have come.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:36 am

76er wrote:
It looks fantastic, and after almost a century with tube and wings it sure is time for something revolutionary. But 'only' a 20% reduction in fuel burn seems rather low to me, although it is also a testament to how far A&B have come.


It is indeed a testament how far the tube + wing has come. They do compare it with the A350 with current A350 engines, so there might be some refinements there in order to get the figure up from 20%.
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readytotaxi
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:16 am

Look forward to October and the test flight.
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Jalap
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:02 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Interesting concept, a flying wing, but slightly different. KLM is one of the financiers of the project. So what do you think, will this kind of craft replace the A350 in 15 years?

Will, I think this press release is mainly aiming for some publicity. Smart move for both KLM and TU Delft.
KLM is mostly saying that is is concerned with the emissions from avaition and are actively searching for solutions. Also working with local researchers is good publicity (in the Netherlands).
And for TU Delft this supports their already strong reputation.

Win-win publicity, but the plane wont be built. Because this design doesn’t offset the known issues with a BWB design.
 
76er
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Sun Jun 02, 2019 3:40 pm

There’s a nice short video about it too:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?time_contin ... DmhQMvJ2aY
 
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DL747400
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:19 pm

Stunning design. And so elegant in appearance. Love it how she is sitting up so high on her gear! Reminds me of walking under the Concorde.

Would love to see some images of the cabin interior. Basing my opinion only on how she looks from the exterior, it seems the interior might me small and claustrophobic, with low ceiling heights.
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Sun Jun 02, 2019 4:35 pm

One big problem: maintaining the engines up there is going to be a real pain. Especially when it's time to swap them.
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Waterbomber2
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:20 pm

Is this the best TU Delft can do, Netherlands' crown jewel engineering university?
Publicity? I call this nostalgia.
Nasa tested the X-48 over a decade ago and it's almost the same, this is slightly worse.

This concept doesn't work aerodynamically.
Even if they can make the fuselage portions generate lift, the drag penalty is huge compared to flying a tube straight into the air.
Here you are basically putting the tube diagonally into the air.

The V-concept is also laughable, you're going to create a non-gradual trailing edge, causing negative pressure behing the fuselage and increasing drag.

Transonic cruise is also impossible because of how thick that blended wing is going to be.
It's not by chance that supersonic aircraft have ultra thin wings.

At FL300+ you're going to be stuck at M0.7 at best.

Laughable at best.

The tube and wing design works because we are mimicking the results of millions of years of animal evolution and adaptation. Nature has shown us the way.
To go beyond our current designs, we need to look at what area's of nature we haven't implemented into our designs yet and I can name a few.
To go even further, we need to try to tackle area's that even nature hasn't found a solution for.

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https://files.allaboutbirds.net/wp-cont ... 20x405.jpg
 
DAL763ER
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:43 pm

DocLightning wrote:
One big problem: maintaining the engines up there is going to be a real pain. Especially when it's time to swap them.


Also, an uncontained engine failure will almost definitely result in fuselage damage
 
AirFiero
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:53 pm

A whole new definition of “twin aisle”.
 
BlueberryWheats
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:46 pm

DocLightning wrote:
One big problem: maintaining the engines up there is going to be a real pain. Especially when it's time to swap them.


Indeed it would a PITA, but I wonder... if KLM had a bunch of these replace some less efficient models, could that saving not more than cover the cost of installing some kind of hoist from a hangar ceiling? Those engines look like they'd lift straight off easy enough (certainly easier than the number 2 on an MD11/similar model with a buried tail engine). Technicians could be raised up on a cherry picker kind of contraption.

Although, of course you'd need a few of these hoist systems installed around the world, so that would possibly nip that idea in the bud.

I'm just playing devil's advocate, maybe I should stick to my pharmacy career. :D

(Edits: my phone auto correct likes to un-correct things)
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:57 pm

BlueberryWheats wrote:
DocLightning wrote:
One big problem: maintaining the engines up there is going to be a real pain. Especially when it's time to swap them.


Indeed it would a PITA, but I wonder... if KLM had a bunch of these replace some less efficient models, could that saving not more than cover the cost of installing some kind of hoist from a hangar ceiling? Those engines look like they'd lift straight off easy enough (certainly easier than the number 2 on an MD11/similar model with a buried tail engine). Technicians could be raised up on a cherry picker kind of contraption.

Although, of course you'd need a few of these hoist systems installed around the world, so that would possibly nip that idea in the bud.

I'm just playing devil's advocate, maybe I should stick to my pharmacy career. :D

(Edits: my phone auto correct likes to un-correct things)


Hoisting the engines is the least of the problems of the concept as previously pointed out.
Helicopters have a similar engine setup and it works. Most respectable maintenance hangars have a heavy duty hoist installed anyway so this might be easier than having a wing in the way.
Maintenance access would also not be that big of an issue if you can walk up to the engines. It might even be better than on some widebodies where you need to balance on a ladder.

Here is (how not to do) a MD82 engine removal using a hoist. https://youtu.be/5gi_NK3MMug
Fyi, I don't commend how these guys go about it, it's not very professional: engines are supposed to come off to be placed on a stand immediately, not to be left to dangle around. Also, you never bulge under a dangling engine. If you need to write down serial numbers for the paperwork, you can do it once the engine is safely on a stand.

The real PITA's and dangerous ones are APU's IMO.
Not much space to work with and if it falls, chances are that you're going to find yourself under it.
I once saved a few guys from just that by noticing that the hoists weren't hooked right moments before they were going to remove the pins and make the newspaper...
 
petertenthije
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:05 pm

According to the Telegraaf the TU wants to have a 3 metres large model flying in October, to coincide with KLM’s 100th birthday.

https://www.telegraaf.nl/financieel/367 ... e-toekomst
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MartijnNL
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:15 pm

It still needs to carry 140,000 liters of jet fuel? That's pretty lame. The aircraft looks terrible. I don't look forward to being a passenger on it.
 
IADFCO
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:31 pm

Waterbomber2 and MartijnNL have spoken: the concept looks terrible and it won't work. The moderators might as well lock this thread.

Until then, I'm sure they have read carefully the detailed technical documentation on the project available by following the links on the web site, which includes details on the design procedure and the aerodynamic simulation. Maybe they can enlighten us all on what flaws they see in the methodology and the conclusions.
 
kalvado
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:51 pm

From the airline's perspective, this is 1% invested in engineering model, 40% spent on PR and 59% invested into young people who would work for the airline in years to come.
KLM may know full well this will never pull to the gate; but guys and gals working on the concept will become qualified engineers - maybe a little bit more qualified than they would be otherwise. And maybe they would choose airspace engineering instead of MBA track.
Return of investment is there anyway.
Last edited by kalvado on Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:52 pm

IADFCO wrote:
Waterbomber2 and MartijnNL have spoken: the concept looks terrible and it won't work. The moderators might as well lock this thread.

Until then, I'm sure they have read carefully the detailed technical documentation on the project available by following the links on the web site, which includes details on the design procedure and the aerodynamic simulation. Maybe they can enlighten us all on what flaws they see in the methodology and the conclusions.


I'm working on my own patents and busy with stuff like this all day, so I can spot it when someone is onto something.
Nothing to see here, the aerodynamics just don't stack up and it doesn't take any calculations or windtunnel tests to see it.

Anybody can show anything to make their concept look good.
What kills the design is the fuselage portion.

Image

https://d1rkab7tlqy5f1.cloudfront.net/L ... V_Left.png

Image

https://d1rkab7tlqy5f1.cloudfront.net/L ... _Front.png

Look at that front view, it looks as if you put the fuselage sideways.
Do you seriously think that a sideways fuselage is going to have any chance of producing less drag than a fuselage that has very little front exposure?

Plus look at the position of the engines versus the extrados. They are too close.
The air the engines are going to suck in is going to be so turbulent that it will be useless.

Very amateuristic.
The only thing good about it is the livery design.
Paint it white and it looks dull as hell.
 
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:23 am

It looks like an A350 and a B2 got it on.
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grbauc
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:02 am

Waterbomber has a point... the F117 wing planes both have thin wings.
 
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:58 am

DocLightning wrote:
One big problem: maintaining the engines up there is going to be a real pain. Especially when it's time to swap them.

Another being: how do you evac that design, especially if it ends up on its back or (even more strangely) its side.
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LaunchDetected
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:19 am

Good PR stuff, some mainstream medias will publish non-technical articles about it and voilà. KLM advertising, TU Delft will gain some student.

I'm not qualified enough to talk about the aerodynamics, but i think that the design will be a challenge in term of cabin pressurization. That's one of the raison d'être of the circular fuselage.
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MoonC
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:18 am

Holy moly...what a fugly thing.
 
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keesje
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:18 am

Don't read too much in it. Neither TUD nor KLM builds aircraft.
KLM has sponsored many similar projects over the years.

https://static.dezeen.com/uploads/2015/07/KLM-AHEAD-design-aircraft_dezeen_784_0.jpg
https://static.dezeen.com/uploads/2015/07/KLM-AHEAD-design-aircraft_dezeen_468_11.jpg

Research projects push students, universities to build knowledge, try out, sees what works & doesn't work.
Stimulate / finance young academics, researchers, show goodwill towards future employees etc.
The positive PR that comes with is is nice but not crusial.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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frigatebird
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:41 am

keesje wrote:
Don't read too much in it. Neither TUD nor KLM builds aircraft.
KLM has sponsored many similar projects over the years.

https://static.dezeen.com/uploads/2015/07/KLM-AHEAD-design-aircraft_dezeen_784_0.jpg
https://static.dezeen.com/uploads/2015/07/KLM-AHEAD-design-aircraft_dezeen_468_11.jpg

Research projects push students, universities to build knowledge, try out, sees what works & doesn't work.
Stimulate / finance young academics, researchers, show goodwill towards future employees etc.
The positive PR that comes with is is nice but not crusial.
kalvado wrote:
From the airline's perspective, this is 1% invested in engineering model, 40% spent on PR and 59% invested into young people who would work for the airline in years to come.
KLM may know full well this will never pull to the gate; but guys and gals working on the concept will become qualified engineers - maybe a little bit more qualified than they would be otherwise. And maybe they would choose airspace engineering instead of MBA track.
Return of investment is there anyway.

At least both of you have got the real idea behind it :thumbsup:
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Aptivaboy
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:18 pm

My question is how many containers can it reasonably carry?

Look, the F-4 has been called a triumph of thrust over aerodynamics, so I'm sure that this thing can fly. The questions really are can it fly efficiently, at speed, with a reasonable passenger and cargo load? Higher thrust engines can overcome a lot of the frontal surface area drag, probably not a lot, but maybe... I'm just not sure where the cargo containers will go and since traditional tubes are quite efficient at loading and carrying containerized cargo one must wonder if this thing can compete economically in that area.

Having said all of this, it is time for a change. I welcome something new in the skies so for that reason alone, I hope it succeeds.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:50 pm

Aptivaboy wrote:
My question is how many containers can it reasonably carry?

Look, the F-4 has been called a triumph of thrust over aerodynamics, so I'm sure that this thing can fly. The questions really are can it fly efficiently, at speed, with a reasonable passenger and cargo load? Higher thrust engines can overcome a lot of the frontal surface area drag, probably not a lot, but maybe... I'm just not sure where the cargo containers will go and since traditional tubes are quite efficient at loading and carrying containerized cargo one must wonder if this thing can compete economically in that area.

Having said all of this, it is time for a change. I welcome something new in the skies so for that reason alone, I hope it succeeds.


Change is coming but not in the way that this concept makes us suggest.
The change will be evolutionary but in 30 years the changes will be significant enough that today's aircraft will look like gas guzzlers.

We're at close to 2 tons per hour for the A320/B737 down from 2.5 tons.
I think that the next generation will get close to 1.5 tons if not lower.

As someone who works on stuff like this, I feel insulted by this self-marketing concept.
KLM and TU Delft should be ashamed.
I went to my country's equivalent of TU Delft and I laugh at the incompetence of some of the professors that gave me lectures (and laud some others) but to present this as a university lead study to people who have no knowledge of aircraft design is shameless.
Hopefully their students would realise by graduation that the concept was nothing but a lure and that it doesn't work. I hope that they don't come into the industry to set it back more than help it advance.
 
deltadc9
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:28 pm

Here is what Boeing’s VP of Product Development and Future Airplane Development. said about passenger BWB planes in 2018:

“A BWB works great because it’s got [wing] span. It’s got more empty weight than a tube-and-wing configuration for a revenue ton of cargo. It’s going to carry more operational empty weight. It’s got span and it’s got a fair amount of wetted area.

Sinnett said designers will make the weight trade for span when there is a lot of range needed. For short missions, for example, four hours, the weight trade isn’t worth it.

“A four-hour mission isn’t going to work because you’ve got more weight and you’re not taking advantage of that span,” he said. Long cruise segments are required to make the aerodynamics work to their greatest benefit.

“And, in general, unless it’s more than a 20% improvement over what you have today,” a new airplane isn’t justified. “For more than a 20% improvement, people will make the change,” he said.

Sinnett that that Boeing’s studies have only shown a few cases in which the economics are better than 20%.

Military cargo operations aren’t tied to commercial requirements.

“You can imagine someday where military cargo operations, long-range, where you’re going from hub-to-hub,” he said. But so far, there hasn’t been a customer requirement for which a BWB makes sense.

In a BWB, the center wing box is also where the passenger cabin is. The wing box needs to be tall enough to accommodate 95% of the world’s men to be able to stand upright.

Space is required for the carry-on bags. There has to be room above and below the floor for ventilation and systems.

“That means you have to have a certain height. Once you have a certain height, you’ve got to have a certain width for the box to work,” he said. “That translates into a certain span. You’ve got a really big airplane at that point.”

This results in the multiple hundreds of passengers, he said.

“It’s hard to do with a small airplane to get enough height in the center box.”

The design creates another challenge: developing a family of airplanes.

Boeing, as with all manufacturers, like several models of a basic design.

This enables the OEM to create, relatively inexpensively, several sub-types to cover the massive R&D costs and post high profit margins (at least in theory) the longer the program is in production.

With tube-and-wing design, it’s a relatively simple task to stretch or shrink the base design to create a three-member family.

The 737 MAX has four sizes, the MAX 7, 8, 9 and 10. Although there were special challenges to overcome for the MAX 10, the stretch was nevertheless accomplished for comparatively little money.

A BWB, with its unique shape, doesn’t lend itself to a stretch or a shrink, Sinnett said. “You take the most expensive part of the airplane, the non-constant section, and growing it in a non-constant way, or shrinking it in a non-constant way. It’s really hard.”
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WayexTDI
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:39 pm

Waterbomber2 wrote:
IADFCO wrote:
Waterbomber2 and MartijnNL have spoken: the concept looks terrible and it won't work. The moderators might as well lock this thread.

Until then, I'm sure they have read carefully the detailed technical documentation on the project available by following the links on the web site, which includes details on the design procedure and the aerodynamic simulation. Maybe they can enlighten us all on what flaws they see in the methodology and the conclusions.


I'm working on my own patents and busy with stuff like this all day, so I can spot it when someone is onto something.
Nothing to see here, the aerodynamics just don't stack up and it doesn't take any calculations or windtunnel tests to see it.

Anybody can show anything to make their concept look good.
What kills the design is the fuselage portion.

Image

https://d1rkab7tlqy5f1.cloudfront.net/L ... V_Left.png

Image

https://d1rkab7tlqy5f1.cloudfront.net/L ... _Front.png

Look at that front view, it looks as if you put the fuselage sideways.
Do you seriously think that a sideways fuselage is going to have any chance of producing less drag than a fuselage that has very little front exposure?

Plus look at the position of the engines versus the extrados. They are too close.
The air the engines are going to suck in is going to be so turbulent that it will be useless.

Very amateuristic.
The only thing good about it is the livery design.
Paint it white and it looks dull as hell.

Don't ever give a lecture at an Engineering school: you will for sure kill every single thread of imagination and optimism they have...
 
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Tugger
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Re: KLM investing in TU Delft's Flying-V concept

Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:11 pm

The BWB was the first thing I thought of when I saw this. The "V" is cute and all (in my non-engineer opinion) but why waste all that space between the "V"? Put all the cargo there and solve the aerodynamic issue the gap creates.

Tugg
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