9Patch
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:16 am

9Patch wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
You have presented zero evidence that the 787 costs less in general than an A330neo, your only evidence when pressed is that in one case Boeing undercut the price to clinch a switch, at HA. Outside this you have presented zero evidence.

So Elroy presented one case.
One is not ZERO.
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:03 am

9Patch wrote:
9Patch wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
You have presented zero evidence that the 787 costs less in general than an A330neo, your only evidence when pressed is that in one case Boeing undercut the price to clinch a switch, at HA. Outside this you have presented zero evidence.

So Elroy presented one case.
One is not ZERO.



Also the details of the HA deal were reported by Reuters and the Wall Street Journal. There are multiple legitimate news sources. Lightsaber has talked extensively about how Boeing has greatly reduced production costs on the entire 787 program due to advanced 3D printing, supplier cost reduction, and economies of scale when producing 14 frames a month. It is difficult for Airbus to complete when only producing 5-6 frames a month.


Yet despite all the evidence Airbus fans still state the A330 Neo is cheaper than the 789. :smile:


I will state again, I have no problem being proven wrong. If anyone can verify Airbus can build an A330 NEO more cheaply than Boeing can build a 789 I would love to see it.


And btw....according to the Airbus web site the A330-Neo is priced over $4 million higher than the 789. Just saying.....


https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/corp ... s-2018.pdf


https://www.boeing.com/company/about-bca/
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MrHMSH
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:13 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
9Patch wrote:
9Patch wrote:

So Elroy presented one case.
One is not ZERO.



Also the details of the HA deal were reported by Reuters and the Wall Street Journal. There are multiple legitimate news sources. Lightsaber has talked extensively about how Boeing has greatly reduced production costs on the entire 787 program due to advanced 3D printing, supplier cost reduction, and economies of scale when producing 14 frames a month. It is difficult for Airbus to complete when only producing 5-6 frames a month.


Yet despite all the evidence Airbus fans still state the A330 Neo is cheaper than the 789. :smile:


I will state again, I have no problem being proven wrong. If anyone can verify Airbus can build an A330 NEO more cheaply than Boeing can build a 789 I would love to see it.


And btw....according to the Airbus web site the A330-Neo is priced over $50 million higher than the 789. Just saying.....


https://www.airbus.com/content/dam/corp ... s-2018.pdf


Sure, your source is accurate. For this one fairly specific deal only. One deal is not enough to back the assertion that the 787 is cheaper to produce, because a sample size of one is too small. If you know the A330neo is more expensive to build then you should know how much the A330neo costs to produce, because you can only make a comparison if you know both numbers. I've seen figures of 80 million to produce, but can't find the source, I'll get looking.

List prices are not - and have never been - indicative of how much airlines actually pay. A weak argument to think it matters.

If this deal turns out to come to fruition, then there'll have to be an explanation from someone as to why Boeing didn't lower their price to clinch the order. Could well be that Boeing isn't willing to offer such low prices again as they want big margins on the 787s to keep eating into the development/production costs. As has been said to you before,mHA was a specific case, and isn't representative of how the rest of deals go.
 
trex8
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:22 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:


I have presented plenty of evidence. :D Airbus admitted it could not match Boeing on price in the HA deal. Per Leeham, Boeing sold the 789 for 115 million per plane to HA. They still made a healthy profit if production costs are roughly 90 million per frame. However, if you have any evidence to contradict what I am saying I would be happy to see it. :)


https://leehamnews.com/2018/02/22/hawai ... 800-787-9/

For those who would like to review the facts of the HA deal. https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtop ... +A+330+Neo


Very simple answer with HA. Boeing sold for a very low price below production cost. Airbus can not follow, because that would be dumping, because the sale is to an USA airline. All to kill off the A330-800. We have seen Boeing doing that before, when they tried to kill the at that time Bombardier C-series.


You are wrong. Read the Leeham story link i provided. Boeing did not sell the 789 at a loss to HA. That is completely false. Production cost is 90 million. Sale price is 115 million.

Why do Airbus fans perpetuate these falsehoods?


Your Leeham article linked by you has no prices, (unless its in the portion behind the firewall) and you fail to note that the same article also includes mentioning HA getting off their 767 leases as part of the deal which is another not unimportant financial incentive. There have been other articles as you point out discussing prices but nowhere has Boeing or an airline ever said what the prices are or what their costs are, they are all guesstimates, possibly by reliable sources but still guesstimates. Airbus list prices as has been discussed ad infinitum on this site are frequently higher than comparable Boeing prices which means diddly squat as either the Airbii are so much better than the competition and airlines will pay top $ for them or they are being sold at higher discounts.

Someone may remember which thread it was but someone poured over multiple years of DL SEC filings and figured out fairly well what DL were paying for their planes and IIRC DL werent paying 100 million + for their A339s!
 
Naincompetent
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:31 am

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1408483&hilit=Delta+filings&start=200

Estimated at around 91m for the A330Neo, while any higher price would mean a much reduced price on their A350
 
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seabosdca
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:40 am

Nice order for Airbus. Any time it can place A330neos with a current 787 operator, that has to count as a win.

It may be a sign that they are succeeding in answering Boeing's reduced production costs in kind.

Availability and access to Delta maintenance, as already pointed out, could also have put thumbs on the scale for the A330.
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:30 am

Naincompetent wrote:
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1408483&hilit=Delta+filings&start=200

Estimated at around 91m for the A330Neo, while any higher price would mean a much reduced price on their A350


If true DL is basically getting the A339 at or below the planes production cost. The same goes for the A359 which the Wall Street Journal says costs 115 million to produce and DL allegedly paid 122 million per frame.

The C series is also rumored to have been sold at or below cost. No wonder DL is going so heavily for Airbus planes. They're practically giving them away. All I can say is Airbus must really want DL business. :)

The rumor mill said Boeing sold the 737-900 ER frames at a 70% discount but it was end of the line production so they still made some money. Boeing got 43 million per frame while Airbus got 42 million for A321 ceos.

Also, it is now completely understandable why DL cancelled the NWA 787 order if those planes were priced at 138 million per frame. Yes the 787 is a more versatile and fuel efficient aircraft, but if Airbus is willing to sell you an A339 for 47 million less, DL would be stupid not to do it.

Interesting info......
Last edited by ElroyJetson on Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:34 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
Naincompetent wrote:
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1408483&hilit=Delta+filings&start=200

Estimated at around 91m for the A330Neo, while any higher price would mean a much reduced price on their A350


If true DL is basically getting the A339 at or below the planes production cost. The same goes for the A359 which the Wall Street Journal says costs 115 million to produce.



The production cost which is $...?
 
Naincompetent
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:42 am

It can't be legally below production cost, that's called dumping and is forbidden in the US for non US companies.
As for these production costs, I don't think anyone outside of Airbus actually knows...
 
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:47 am

MrHMSH wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
Naincompetent wrote:
https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1408483&hilit=Delta+filings&start=200

Estimated at around 91m for the A330Neo, while any higher price would mean a much reduced price on their A350


If true DL is basically getting the A339 at or below the planes production cost. The same goes for the A359 which the Wall Street Journal says costs 115 million to produce.



The production cost which is $...?



The A333 CEO costs 80-85 million per plane to build after years of Airbus aggressively bringing down production costs. The A339 has not had that happen yet. My guess would be 90-100 million per plane with such a slow production rate (5-6 planes per month). But it is just a guess. Regardless, DL got a fabulous deal and Airbus must have really, really wanted them as a launch customer.
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Naincompetent
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:52 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
The A333 CEO costs 80-85 million per plane to build


Source?
 
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:19 am

Naincompetent wrote:
It can't be legally below production cost, that's called dumping and is forbidden in the US for non US companies.
As for these production costs, I don't think anyone outside of Airbus actually knows...


Do people in Airbus know? Not so sure.
 
Naincompetent
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:30 am

Let's say that they have at least some good estimates based on tangible data...
They should have quite a precise idea within a few 100k margin
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:30 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:

If true DL is basically getting the A339 at or below the planes production cost. The same goes for the A359 which the Wall Street Journal says costs 115 million to produce.



The production cost which is $...?



The A333 CEO costs 80-85 million per plane to build after years of Airbus aggressively bringing down production costs. The A339 has not had that happen yet. My guess would be 90-100 million per plane with such a slow production rate (5-6 planes per month). But it is just a guess. Regardless, DL got a fabulous deal and Airbus must have really, really wanted them as a launch customer.


If the production cost is $80-90m and the selling value is $100m that means Airbus is selling at a profit per unit, which goes against your previous claim. You also claimed that the 787 was cheaper to produce, and yet your own estimate shoots that down. If you’re going to make claims, at least back them up correctly instead of supplying evidence that contradicts them.

I doubt there’ll be much change in the production cost for the A339, it is after all the same plane, the only things that have changed are the winglets (minimal) and the engines (which are produced by Rolls-Royce, not Airbus).

We know Airbus gave a great deal, it’s something they have typically done down the years. Why you say it with the undertone that it’s a bad thing I’m not quite sure.
 
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:25 am

Checklist787 wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

Very simple answer with HA. Boeing sold for a very low price below production cost. Airbus can not follow, because that would be dumping, because the sale is to an USA airline. All to kill off the A330-800. We have seen Boeing doing that before, when they tried to kill the at that time Bombardier C-series.


You are wrong. Read the Leeham story link i provided. Boeing did not sell the 789 at a loss to HA. That is completely false. Production cost is 90 million. Sale price is 115 million.

Why do Airbus fans perpetuate these falsehoods?


It is very sad for them to be reduced to that

It's sickly and scary.


It seems lots of aviation related things scare you. Maybe you should consider a different means of transport?
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scbriml
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:35 am

MrHMSH wrote:
List prices are not - and have never been - indicative of how much airlines actually pay. A weak argument to think it matters.


Especially when 'list price' for one OEM includes (or excludes) things that the other doesn't.

MrHMSH wrote:
If you’re going to make claims, at least back them up correctly instead of supplying evidence that contradicts them.


You're expecting too much!
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BrianDromey
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:41 am

The sticker is much less important than costs like financing, maintenance, training and airway fees all add up.

Why do the German car manufacturers sell so many cars? After all they are a lot more expensive than, say, a Ford. They use incentives like deposit contribution, favourable trade-in/future values to bring monthly costs to a competitive level.
 
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:51 am

lee757 wrote:
Makes perfect sense for them surely? Arent, the 333's on 12 year leases from the early 00's meaning in the next few years they could turn them over. I read somewhere (on here) that the prices for them weren't the keenest/ costing more than the temp 332's when comparing seat count and lease cost so that could potentially play into it. Can they get similar prices and better efficiency on neos whilst streamlining into one model 330neo instead of multiple engined ceo versions. If they can get similar leasing prices then a no brainer, especially if 350 and 787 slots are sold out for a while.


They started entering the VS fleet in 2011. 10 year leases was being reported for the -300's and 4 years for the ex-Air Berlin -200's (don't know how true that is), so placing an order around now would make sense if they're not intending to extend the leases.

TTailedTiger wrote:
Doesn't RR makes the engines for the A330neo? Maybe VS should have looked past national pride when making engine selections for the 787.


Do you have evidence VS selected RR engines for the 787 on the grounds they are a British company?
 
AirwayBill
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:20 am

TTailedTiger wrote:

Doesn't RR makes the engines for the A330neo? Maybe VS should have looked past national pride when making engine selections for the 787.


Clearly yes, VS' displaced "national pride" when selecting engine must be to blame.

Just look at all their Rolls-Royce powered 747-400s.

... :roll:
 
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:40 am

That would be awesome news for the A330neo program.
 
Checklist787
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:03 am

scbriml wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:

You are wrong. Read the Leeham story link i provided. Boeing did not sell the 789 at a loss to HA. That is completely false. Production cost is 90 million. Sale price is 115 million.

Why do Airbus fans perpetuate these falsehoods?


It is very sad for them to be reduced to that

It's sickly and scary.


It seems lots of aviation related things scare you. Maybe you should consider a different means of transport?


Excuse me but I do not understand what you mean.. :shakehead:
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:22 am

Quick question: would an A339neo be capable of hauling a full passenger and cargo load from the UK to/from places like the west coast of the US, JNB, DEL,BOM, BKK?
 
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AECM
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:25 am

DobboDobbo wrote:
Quick question: would an A339neo be capable of hauling a full passenger and cargo load from the UK to/from places like the west coast of the US, JNB, DEL,BOM, BKK?


Depends of what you consider full passenger and cargo load but at the moment the longest A339NEO route is Air Mauritius MRU-LHR-MRU and TAP will start on the 10th June LIS-SFO-LIS
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:38 am

DobboDobbo wrote:
Quick question: would an A339neo be capable of hauling a full passenger and cargo load from the UK to/from places like the west coast of the US, JNB, DEL,BOM, BKK?


A 251T A339 has a brochure range of 7200nm, so it should certainly be capable of making all of them with a full passenger load from the UK, but not sure about how much cargo could be carried. BOM, DEL and US West Coast should be doable with close to full passenger and cargo payload, but BKK and JNB are more challenging.
 
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:43 am

Checklist787 wrote:

Excuse me but I do not understand what you mean.. :shakehead:


You should have that on a T-shirt :mrgreen:
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:44 am

Actually a question from me as well, while I’m pretty sure it’s the same, is the cruising speed any faster for the neo than ceo?
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:27 am

MrHMSH wrote:
Actually a question from me as well, while I’m pretty sure it’s the same, is the cruising speed any faster for the neo than ceo?


No. Same cruising speed.
 
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frigatebird
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:17 pm

seabosdca wrote:
Nice order for Airbus. Any time it can place A330neos with a current 787 operator, that has to count as a win.

It may be a sign that they are succeeding in answering Boeing's reduced production costs in kind.

Availability and access to Delta maintenance, as already pointed out, could also have put thumbs on the scale for the A330.

Well, it's not an order yet, but otherwise I agree with you. This means humble pie for me though, I dismissed earlier speculations regarding A330neo's for VS as not making sense. I thought Airbus wouldn't be able to place the A330neo to airlines already operating the 787.
But to VS, the numbers must add up. The advantages of 3 widebody types instead of 2 outweigh the disadvantages. Good and important win for Airbus' new sales team, especially for the A330neo program which slowly is gaining more traction with more well known airlines. Must be the first time the A330neo will get an order for an airline already operating 787s?

Boeing will not be happy, but you can't win them all. They won the order for NZ which must have been as important for the 787-10 as this VS win is for the A339.
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:40 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
The A333 CEO costs 80-85 million per plane to build after years of Airbus aggressively bringing down production costs. The A339 has not had that happen yet. My guess would be 90-100 million per plane with such a slow production rate (5-6 planes per month).


The neo follows on from the ceo production-wise and they are presently being built side by side on the same line, so the neo will benefit from the legacy cost-reduction work. However, Airbus needs to get the joint ceo / neo production rate back up to 10 or so per month as it used to be to get the full benefit of volume-based production cost reductions.
 
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:48 pm

JerseyFlyer wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
The A333 CEO costs 80-85 million per plane to build after years of Airbus aggressively bringing down production costs. The A339 has not had that happen yet. My guess would be 90-100 million per plane with such a slow production rate (5-6 planes per month).


The neo follows on from the ceo production-wise and they are presently being built side by side on the same line, so the neo will benefit from the legacy cost-reduction work. However, Airbus needs to get the joint ceo / neo production rate back up to 10 or so per month as it used to be to get the full benefit of volume-based production cost reductions.


Not sure what this has to do with this thread on VS. Please explain.

When looking at VS routes, I too share the question as to whether the 789 was the right plane for them. 339 and 35K would do it IMHO. Not sure they operate many routes where there is a need for the 789. Equally, in terms of passenger travelling experience, there are lots of moans about the 787 in terms of economy traveler experience and the gain for VS is minimal because they are not using the aircraft to its potential. Yet they have 17 aircraft. not sure about how many leased / owned. But seems to me for sure that there is a place for the 339 and it could be a case of an ideal fit.
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9Patch
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:59 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Not really, because the competition laws are quite different. In the USA the law against dumping does only apply to foreign competition. In the EU the dumping laws does not make a distinction between foreign or local companies.

Oh really?
Please cite the relevant laws.
 
musman9853
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:18 pm

Keep in mind the a330neo production rate is being cut to rate 3.5 and the 787 is having it's rate increased. That alone gives significant economies of scale to the 787
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:59 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:

The production cost which is $...?



The A333 CEO costs 80-85 million per plane to build after years of Airbus aggressively bringing down production costs. The A339 has not had that happen yet. My guess would be 90-100 million per plane with such a slow production rate (5-6 planes per month). But it is just a guess. Regardless, DL got a fabulous deal and Airbus must have really, really wanted them as a launch customer.


If the production cost is $80-90m and the selling value is $100m that means Airbus is selling at a profit per unit, which goes against your previous claim. You also claimed that the 787 was cheaper to produce, and yet your own estimate shoots that down. If you’re going to make claims, at least back them up correctly instead of supplying evidence that contradicts them.

I doubt there’ll be much change in the production cost for the A339, it is after all the same plane, the only things that have changed are the winglets (minimal) and the engines (which are produced by Rolls-Royce, not Airbus).

We know Airbus gave a great deal, it’s something they have typically done down the years. Why you say it with the undertone that it’s a bad thing I’m not quite sure.



You need read more carefully. The article said DL got their A339's for 91 million per frame, not 100 million. But DL was a launch customer so I guess you can assume a cut rate deal. I say kudos to DL. Nobody knows how to keep down capex costs better than them.
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DobboDobbo
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:18 pm

AECM wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:
Quick question: would an A339neo be capable of hauling a full passenger and cargo load from the UK to/from places like the west coast of the US, JNB, DEL,BOM, BKK?


Depends of what you consider full passenger and cargo load but at the moment the longest A339NEO route is Air Mauritius MRU-LHR-MRU and TAP will start on the 10th June LIS-SFO-LIS


Many thanks!
 
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:18 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:
Quick question: would an A339neo be capable of hauling a full passenger and cargo load from the UK to/from places like the west coast of the US, JNB, DEL,BOM, BKK?


A 251T A339 has a brochure range of 7200nm, so it should certainly be capable of making all of them with a full passenger load from the UK, but not sure about how much cargo could be carried. BOM, DEL and US West Coast should be doable with close to full passenger and cargo payload, but BKK and JNB are more challenging.


Many thanks!
 
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:20 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:

If true DL is basically getting the A339 at or below the planes production cost. The same goes for the A359 which the Wall Street Journal says costs 115 million to produce.



The production cost which is $...?



The A333 CEO costs 80-85 million per plane to build after years of Airbus aggressively bringing down production costs. The A339 has not had that happen yet. My guess would be 90-100 million per plane with such a slow production rate (5-6 planes per month). But it is just a guess. Regardless, DL got a fabulous deal and Airbus must have really, really wanted them as a launch customer.


So, no real solid numbers and people fighting over how one plane is cheaper than the other?
 
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:30 am

DobboDobbo wrote:
Quick question: would an A339neo be capable of hauling a full passenger and cargo load from the UK to/from places like the west coast of the US, JNB, DEL,BOM, BKK?


DEL and BOM are extremely close to London. They could cover that.

Major cities in West Coast US and JNB aren't that far, they're less than 5000nmi away from London. Which are around 10-11 hours at most including taxiing and everything.

So A330neo could easily reached those destinations without any restrictions at all.
 
Arion640
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:36 am

ewt340 wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:
Quick question: would an A339neo be capable of hauling a full passenger and cargo load from the UK to/from places like the west coast of the US, JNB, DEL,BOM, BKK?


DEL and BOM are extremely close to London. They could cover that.

Major cities in West Coast US and JNB aren't that far, they're less than 5000nmi away from London. Which are around 10-11 hours at most including taxiing and everything.

So A330neo could easily reached those destinations without any restrictions at all.


I agree. It’s places like KUL and SIN from London where it gets interesting.
223 319 320 321 333 346 359 388 733 73G 738 744 752 753 763 764 772 77E 773 77W 788 789 MD83 E145 E175 E195 RJ85 F70 DH8C DH8D AT75

Brexit - It’s time for global Britain.
 
marcelh
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:22 pm

TTailedTiger wrote:
Continental767 wrote:
The RR engine issues on the 787 clearly spooked them.

I bet they got a killer deal on the NEO. Good for fleet commonality as well.


Doesn't RR makes the engines for the A330neo?Maybe VS should have looked past national pride when making engine selections for the 787.

:rotfl:
And HA went all “Stars & Stripes” instead keeping the A338+RR order.... Looking past national pride... :scratchchin:
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:38 pm

Arion640 wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:
Quick question: would an A339neo be capable of hauling a full passenger and cargo load from the UK to/from places like the west coast of the US, JNB, DEL,BOM, BKK?


DEL and BOM are extremely close to London. They could cover that.

Major cities in West Coast US and JNB aren't that far, they're less than 5000nmi away from London. Which are around 10-11 hours at most including taxiing and everything.

So A330neo could easily reached those destinations without any restrictions at all.


I agree. It’s places like KUL and SIN from London where it gets interesting.


Cheers both.

My contemplation was the possible routes VS might deploy the A339neo on from MAN as part of the planned expansion there (and therefore flexibility - or not - offered by the A339).

I was pretty confident the west coast and India would be fine, my main concern was performance out of JNB, and somewhere like BKK.

All speculative, but trying to work out what might be possible.
 
UKFLYER26
Topic Author
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:25 am

I’m guessing Paris could be a prime target for an order announcement should it come to fruition.

Guessing mix of owned and leased as per the A350 order, price dependant.
 
User avatar
flee
Posts: 957
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:35 am

ewt340 wrote:
DobboDobbo wrote:
Quick question: would an A339neo be capable of hauling a full passenger and cargo load from the UK to/from places like the west coast of the US, JNB, DEL,BOM, BKK?

DEL and BOM are extremely close to London. They could cover that.

Major cities in West Coast US and JNB aren't that far, they're less than 5000nmi away from London. Which are around 10-11 hours at most including taxiing and everything.

So A330neo could easily reached those destinations without any restrictions at all.

Airasia X (D7) has a requirement for a two class high density (377 pax) A339 and they are waiting for the 251t MTOW version to be available before taking delivery. This version will carry full payload from KUL-LGW/STN without any issues.
 
CHRISBA35X
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:37 am

A339 for VS would in the first instance I think be about rolling over the earlier A333s as they come off lease (I think) but certainly there would be some scope for expansion.

A three class high density A339 on the bucket and spade Caribbean routes ex-MAN/GLA etc would be pretty compelling in terms of efficiency. Fuel burn would be really impressive on that sort of stage length.

I'm more interested in LHR higher yield though - are there any routes that might open up that werent viable with an A333 but might work with a more efficient A339? Realistically i dont see it. BOM? DEL? ORD? Surely if they work with an A339 then they'll work even better with a 789?
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Wed Jun 12, 2019 9:54 am

JerseyFlyer wrote:
The 2 4 2 seating in economy will enable VS to offer more comfort in economy than BA (in particular), AA, UA, 787s on TATL.

The same game plan as DL, which is probably not a coincidence.


I think that you get it.
DL is repositioning VS as a premium brand, offering both frequencies and comfort. VS has always been a premium brand but now that BA is sinking into LCC territory, the market is opening up for VS.

Therefore, the B787 is not suitable unless you unravel the red carpet and go 8Y like JL, which is comfortable but not easily profitable.

Let BA have the rif raf.
I wonder if VS can't try out an A380 on wetlease for a quarter or two to measure the guest response. They may be surprised.
 
Caluma350
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:37 am

This may be a replacement for some of the older Virgin a330-200, old Air Berlin units which have had a few problems with maintenance. The a330-300 are not too old and will likely remain in the Virgin fleet for years to come.

True Virgin have had problems with their 787s with the RR engines, however they do have a relatively large fleet of 19 a/c - so perhaps Virgin are just beefing up their total a330 fleet, as they attempt to make their overall fell a bit more stream lined as both the 747/a340-600 reach retirement.
 
User001
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Wed Jun 12, 2019 10:42 am

I've heard this A339 order is for a MAN sub fleet with a slightly lower upper seat count similar to the ex-Air Berlin they will replace. 4 of the 10 will replace the AB aircraft and the other 6 will be for expansion.

Also expect an order for the A220 to come too. VS currently asking its frequent fliers their opinions on a short haul J product. Given the Dash8 isn't optimised for J, it's clear VS have a plan for something bigger on their new VS connect venture.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1097
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Wed Jun 12, 2019 11:21 am

CHRISBA35X wrote:
I'm more interested in LHR higher yield though - are there any routes that might open up that werent viable with an A333 but might work with a more efficient A339? Realistically i dont see it. BOM? DEL? ORD? Surely if they work with an A339 then they'll work even better with a 789?


In the case of BOM, as that's being re-launched we'll soon see how it fares with a 787. Without wanting to reopen the debate upthread, I'd say that operating costs between the two aircraft is likely to be marginal on routes such as anywhere to the US East Coast, though the A330-900 could easily work most routes on the VS network if required.

Caluma350 wrote:
This may be a replacement for some of the older Virgin a330-200, old Air Berlin units which have had a few problems with maintenance. The a330-300 are not too old and will likely remain in the Virgin fleet for years to come.


Both fleets are leased, so if the deal is right and if it's true the -300's are on ten year leases (which I accept can easily be extended), it might make more sense to ditch the ceo's.

User001 wrote:
I've heard this A339 order is for a MAN sub fleet with a slightly lower upper seat count similar to the ex-Air Berlin they will replace. 4 of the 10 will replace the AB aircraft and the other 6 will be for expansion.

Also expect an order for the A220 to come too. VS currently asking its frequent fliers their opinions on a short haul J product. Given the Dash8 isn't optimised for J, it's clear VS have a plan for something bigger on their new VS connect venture.


Does that also include MCO or will that be covered by the A350's for capacity purposes?

An A220 order sounds plausible and makes sense. They can convert more Dash 8 routes to upgrade the offering, particularly on the routes out of LHR, and also ditch the Embraer's, though there's still a lot of routes that work best with the Dash 8's.

Speaking of Embraer's, is there any word on when the 4 E170's Flybe committed themselves to taking delivery of is likely to occur or is that no longer happening?
 
DobboDobbo
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:06 am

Update: now confirmed.

Firm commitment for 14 A330-900's with options on 6 more. Delivery between 2021 - 2024.

Source to be posted shortly when available.
 
Boeing74741R
Posts: 1097
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2007 5:44 am

Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 17, 2019 10:16 am

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 0s-459004/

Also now on their Instagram page.

Going by the quantities, I assume these will replace the A332/333's like-for-like.
 
Motorhussy
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Re: Confirmed: Virgin Atlantic ordering/leasing 14 A330-900neo's plus 6 options

Mon Jun 17, 2019 11:30 am

Congratulations VS and Airbus.
come visit the south pacific

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