DobboDobbo
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:00 pm

vhtje wrote:
UKFLYER26 wrote:
[
My guess is MAN/LGW based, I guess some of the existing A330's will be coming to EOL within the next few years. Could also be used to replace some of the Thomas Cook fleet should that deal be approved.


Surely an airline wouldn’t order aircraft until any takeover deal had been both approved and finalised? It would be far too risky to do otherwise


Obviously the order isn’t yet finalised (whatever it ends up being). I think there was a need for VS to order new aircraft in any circumstance, but I suspect they will cover and protect their position by adding options which can be exercised in the event of (for example) a take over of TCX requiring new aircraft.
 
LDRA
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:17 pm

Strange, they already have 787, and 339 is RR powered anyways. Maybe they like the 2 + 4 + 2 layout?
 
sxf24
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Sun Jun 02, 2019 5:46 pm

This is a decision based on price. For the (relatively) short stage lengths these planes will fly, the 787-9 range advantage is not needed. VS is very happy with the 787 but is looking for the lowest possible acquisition cost.
 
JamesCousins
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:13 pm

I think another key point being missed here, is pilot pools. Currently the 787 doesn't leave Heathrow, with Manchester & Gatwick containing 2 pools, one for A330/350(soon) and a 747 pool. An A330neo order allows for very minimal pilot and crew training costs, as the A330 is currently the only fleet type that operates at all bases. Obviously this alone isn't a deal breaker, but it must have an impact?

With the retirement of the 747 this would allow for one pilot pool at Manchester and Gatwick for the A330s, A330neos & A350s.
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chunhimlai
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:36 pm

Should VS phase out all b787 in favour of A350-A330neo fleet?
 
UKFLYER26
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Sun Jun 02, 2019 6:42 pm

DobboDobbo wrote:
vhtje wrote:
UKFLYER26 wrote:
[
My guess is MAN/LGW based, I guess some of the existing A330's will be coming to EOL within the next few years. Could also be used to replace some of the Thomas Cook fleet should that deal be approved.


Surely an airline wouldn’t order aircraft until any takeover deal had been both approved and finalised? It would be far too risky to do otherwise


Obviously the order isn’t yet finalised (whatever it ends up being). I think there was a need for VS to order new aircraft in any circumstance, but I suspect they will cover and protect their position by adding options which can be exercised in the event of (for example) a take over of TCX requiring new aircraft.


Exactly, I don’t think they would place a firm order for the replacement of fleet they have not yet acquired but as mentioned above I’m sure they will consider options for future growth / replacements.

Will be interesting to see how this all unfolds, think it’s a great aircraft, but also interesting to see what happens with Flybe and potential TCX integrations.
 
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JerseyFlyer
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:24 pm

The 2 4 2 seating in economy will enable VS to offer more comfort in economy than BA (in particular), AA, UA, 787s on TATL.

The same game plan as DL, which is probably not a coincidence.
 
JamesCousins
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Sun Jun 02, 2019 7:26 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
Should VS phase out all b787 in favour of A350-A330neo fleet?


No, it has its place in the fleet. It is an incredibly capable airliner ideal for routes that require the range of the A350 (and more), with A330-esk capacity. While expensive, it is a powerful and very fuel efficient aircraft that is well received among VS consumers. Virgin have consistently resisted one-manufacturer fleets, operating Boeing and Airbus fleets alongside one and other since shortly after its inception.
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LAX772LR
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Sun Jun 02, 2019 8:39 pm

Kindanew wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
LAX772LR wrote:
How is that "clearly"...?

Strange logic indeed. That means that 787 customers are clearly not impressed with the A350...

Nothing at all is strange about my logic. The 787 and A350 capabilities and capacities are clearly different from one another. They are aimed at different market segments with the A350 being larger and capable of carrying a heavier payload.

The A330Neo on the other hand is clearly A direct competitor to the 787, albeit one with slightly less performance.

You toss around that word "clearly" way too liberally.

Your "logic" is a litany of omissions:
E.g. you speak of capabilities difference between 787s and A350s, while ignoring the VAST difference in capability between several versions of A330NEO and 787. You also ignore externalities like delivery timing, OEM incentives and acquisition cost, in your hasty jump to a conclusion.

If such an order materializes from VS, it's (1) possible that dissatisfaction with some aspect of their 787 may have played (2) a part in the decision to go with another model.... but as for "clearly" being the reason? That's only a supposition in your mind. Nothing factual, and nothing more.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
smartplane
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:08 pm

LAX772LR wrote:
Kindanew wrote:
kimimm19 wrote:
Strange logic indeed. That means that 787 customers are clearly not impressed with the A350...

Nothing at all is strange about my logic. The 787 and A350 capabilities and capacities are clearly different from one another. They are aimed at different market segments with the A350 being larger and capable of carrying a heavier payload.

The A330Neo on the other hand is clearly A direct competitor to the 787, albeit one with slightly less performance.

You toss around that word "clearly" way too liberally.

Your "logic" is a litany of omissions:
E.g. you speak of capabilities difference between 787s and A350s, while ignoring the VAST difference in capability between several versions of A330NEO and 787. You also ignore externalities like delivery timing, OEM incentives and acquisition cost, in your hasty jump to a conclusion.

If such an order materializes from VS, it's (1) possible that dissatisfaction with some aspect of their 787 may have played (2) a part in the decision to go with another model.... but as for "clearly" being the reason? That's only a supposition in your mind. Nothing factual, and nothing more.

Possibly bundled with an A320 family variant.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:18 pm

chunhimlai wrote:
Should VS phase out all b787 in favour of A350-A330neo fleet?

No why would they do that. (Then again, why would Seattle turn Vashon Island into an airport...)
 
ewt340
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:09 pm

jumpjets wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Seems like they are hooked by A330 low leasing and purchasing prices and efficiency for TATL and European Leisure network.
I think many airlines would started to realized how efficient A330neo is compared to the expensive B787.

The problems with B787 would definitely be the main factor for these purchase.


Do you really think that Rolls Royce Trent engine problems would drive VS away from Boeing 787s and into the arms of Airbus selling them aircraft powered by, oh yes Rolls Royce Trent engines? And yes I do realise they are different versions.

I suspect the decision, if indeed it has been made, is more economic than mechanical.


You just contradict and answer your own question at the same time. Rolls-Royce's CEO Warren East said the 7000 was not affected by the Trent 1000 issues. You know the drill.
 
ewt340
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:19 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Should VS phase out all b787 in favour of A350-A330neo fleet?

No why would they do that. (Then again, why would Seattle turn Vashon Island into an airport...)


Highly unlikely. But it would be useful to do the bait-and-switch tactics.

You see those airlines that sold their own aircraft to leasing companies and then leased those sold aircraft right away again? They could do that, and then after couple years they could terminated the contract.
And B787 are in demand right now, especially the B787-9 variants. Which would easily find a new home.

A330neo would have lower purchasing prices and works better for many 8-10 hours missions. And almost all of their routes are not that long. They only need few long-range aircraft to serve Chinese cities and US West Coast.
Most times, B787-9 range isn't that useful for most of their operations to begin with.

Again, commonality with A350 would be extremely useful.
 
Checklist787
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Re: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:17 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Kindanew wrote:
Clearly they aren’t that impressed with the 787

How is that "clearly"...?



Kindanew wrote:
Nothing at all is strange about my logic. The 787 and A350 capabilities and capacities are clearly different from one another. They are aimed at different market segments with the A350 being larger and capable of carrying a heavier payload.

The A330Neo on the other hand is clearly A direct competitor to the 787, albeit one with slightly less performance.


In 2014 VS wanted to order 787-10 but did not honor the delivery of their A380 that they dropped. As a result they changed in favor of the A350-1000 against 787-10. I suspect they still have options.

Nothing to do with a 787 being more expensive or VS was dissatisfied.

I think it's a fantasy to believe that the 787 is under performing and / or too expensive
 
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Slash787
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:59 am

All of these are great aircrafts, I won't fight over it, I really love the A35K, A330neo and B787.

My question is that I assume over these years their B747 would be profitable, they even wanted a bigger plane which is A380, they went with the A35K which is a very sensible choice but why din't they order B777X to replace the B747?
 
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:51 am

ewt340 wrote:
Seems like they are hooked by A330 low leasing and purchasing prices and efficiency for TATL and European Leisure network.
I think many airlines would started to realized how efficient A330neo is compared to the expensive B787.

The problems with B787 would definitely be the main factor for these purchase.



I find this post humorous as there is zero evidence the A330 Neo is "more efficient" than "the expensive" 787 or that it costs less.


Leeham and others indicated that Boeing was able to under sell the A330 Neo in the HA deal and Airbus publicly admitted they could not match the same pricing. Reports are Boeing is now able to produce a 789 for 90-95 million. If Airbus is able to profitably under sell Boeing
it has not been proven.

Second, every analysis of fuel burn says the 789 burns less. Admitted it is very close up until 4000 nm where the 1% fuel burn difference begins to expand out to 4-5%.

Finally, both planes essentially fly the same engine, hence the allusion to 787 "problems" makes no sense. They both fly the RR trent .
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ElroyJetson
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:01 am

ewt340 wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
chunhimlai wrote:
Should VS phase out all b787 in favour of A350-A330neo fleet?

No why would they do that. (Then again, why would Seattle turn Vashon Island into an airport...)


Highly unlikely. But it would be useful to do the bait-and-switch tactics.

You see those airlines that sold their own aircraft to leasing companies and then leased those sold aircraft right away again? They could do that, and then after couple years they could terminated the contract.
And B787 are in demand right now, especially the B787-9 variants. Which would easily find a new home.

A330neo would have lower purchasing prices and works better for many 8-10 hours missions. And almost all of their routes are not that long. They only need few long-range aircraft to serve Chinese cities and US West Coast.
Most times, B787-9 range isn't that useful for most of their operations to begin with.

Again, commonality with A350 would be extremely useful.



Again you reference lower purchase price for the A330 Neo yet present zero evidence to support your claim. I have presented evidence that exactly contradicts what you are saying. Also, there is zero evidence the A330 Neo works better on 8-10 hour mission s than the 789. In fact, there is substantial evidence to support the 789 has better fuel burn over these stage lengths. Sorry, maybe you have information that I have not seen, but I cannot let the statements go unchallenged without evidence.
707 717 727 72S 737 733 737-700 747 757 753 767-300 764 A319 A320 DC-9-10 DC-9-30 DC-9-50, MD-82 MD-88 MD-90 DC-10-10 DC-10-40 F-100
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:36 am

ElroyJetson wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
No why would they do that. (Then again, why would Seattle turn Vashon Island into an airport...)


Highly unlikely. But it would be useful to do the bait-and-switch tactics.

You see those airlines that sold their own aircraft to leasing companies and then leased those sold aircraft right away again? They could do that, and then after couple years they could terminated the contract.
And B787 are in demand right now, especially the B787-9 variants. Which would easily find a new home.

A330neo would have lower purchasing prices and works better for many 8-10 hours missions. And almost all of their routes are not that long. They only need few long-range aircraft to serve Chinese cities and US West Coast.
Most times, B787-9 range isn't that useful for most of their operations to begin with.

Again, commonality with A350 would be extremely useful.



Again you reference lower purchase price for the A330 Neo yet present zero evidence to support your claim. I have presented evidence that exactly contradicts what you are saying. Also, there is zero evidence the A330 Neo works better on 8-10 hour mission s than the 789. In fact, there is substantial evidence to support the 789 has better fuel burn over these stage lengths. Sorry, maybe you have information that I have not seen, but I cannot let the statements go unchallenged without evidence.


You have presented zero evidence that the 787 costs less in general than an A330neo, your only evidence when pressed is that in one case Boeing undercut the price to clinch a switch, at HA. Outside this you have presented zero evidence. Can you please supply any if this has changed?
 
AirwayBill
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:48 am

With the existing fleet of A330s and the upcoming fleet of 35K and almost certainly 339, the 789 really starts to look like an odd duck at VS. :stirthepot:
 
Antarius
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:50 am

sxf24 wrote:
This is a decision based on price. For the (relatively) short stage lengths these planes will fly, the 787-9 range advantage is not needed. VS is very happy with the 787 but is looking for the lowest possible acquisition cost.


Would the 78J be in play? Or is that too much plane?
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Checklist787
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:57 am

MrHMSH wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

Highly unlikely. But it would be useful to do the bait-and-switch tactics.

You see those airlines that sold their own aircraft to leasing companies and then leased those sold aircraft right away again? They could do that, and then after couple years they could terminated the contract.
And B787 are in demand right now, especially the B787-9 variants. Which would easily find a new home.

A330neo would have lower purchasing prices and works better for many 8-10 hours missions. And almost all of their routes are not that long. They only need few long-range aircraft to serve Chinese cities and US West Coast.
Most times, B787-9 range isn't that useful for most of their operations to begin with.

Again, commonality with A350 would be extremely useful.



Again you reference lower purchase price for the A330 Neo yet present zero evidence to support your claim. I have presented evidence that exactly contradicts what you are saying. Also, there is zero evidence the A330 Neo works better on 8-10 hour mission s than the 789. In fact, there is substantial evidence to support the 789 has better fuel burn over these stage lengths. Sorry, maybe you have information that I have not seen, but I cannot let the statements go unchallenged without evidence.


You have presented zero evidence that the 787 costs less in general than an A330neo, your only evidence when pressed is that in one case Boeing undercut the price to clinch a switch, at HA. Outside this you have presented zero evidence. Can you please supply any if this has changed?



If the old A330neo costs less than the new CFRP 787 / A350-900 would you be saying that the A350-900 is cannibalize by the A330neo?

Why HA was choose the 787 while the A330 was flying there please?
 
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LAX772LR
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:20 am

Slash787 wrote:
they even wanted a bigger plane which is A380, they went with the A35K which is a very sensible choice but why din't they order B777X to replace the B747?

Didn't want the capacity.

They were a 747 airline with A380 dreams in the '00s, but the dissolution of Bermuda II changed all of that.... having such capacity was a drag on them, which is why nearly everything in their fleet (747, A346, etc) has downshifted in gauge to A330/787/A350.
I myself, suspect a more prosaic motive... ~Thranduil
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:22 am

Checklist787 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:


Again you reference lower purchase price for the A330 Neo yet present zero evidence to support your claim. I have presented evidence that exactly contradicts what you are saying. Also, there is zero evidence the A330 Neo works better on 8-10 hour mission s than the 789. In fact, there is substantial evidence to support the 789 has better fuel burn over these stage lengths. Sorry, maybe you have information that I have not seen, but I cannot let the statements go unchallenged without evidence.


You have presented zero evidence that the 787 costs less in general than an A330neo, your only evidence when pressed is that in one case Boeing undercut the price to clinch a switch, at HA. Outside this you have presented zero evidence. Can you please supply any if this has changed?



If the old A330neo costs less than the new CFRP 787 / A350-900 would you be saying that the A350-900 is cannibalize by the A330neo?

Why HA was choose the 787 while the A330 was flying there please?


To an extent the A330neo does cannabilise, but given the option of letting the 787 have a free reign or having the A330neo compete but cannibalise a little, Airbus chose the latter. The A359 has a massive leap in capability and range though, its main selling point.

Why did HA choose the 787? I think (and I stress this is only speculation), that given their status as a fairly reluctant A330neo customer (switched from A358 as Airbus was keen to get rid of all orders for that model), they were ripe for a switch. Boeing offered a killer deal in order to block off the only A338 customer at the time to remove a potential challenger to the top of the NMA business case. A case of a little loss of revenue on a small order to block off a competitor completely. HA also intend to fly the 787s quite far (Europe has always been mooted) where the better fuel efficiency pays off more.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:57 am

AirwayBill wrote:
With the existing fleet of A330s and the upcoming fleet of 35K and almost certainly 339, the 789 really starts to look like an odd duck at VS. :stirthepot:

Nothing wrong with diversifying fleet types. A332, A333, A339, 789, and A35K seems like a great fleet. Use the A330s for transatlantic hops or low demand sub ten hour flights. Use the A350 for flights that need more seats, and use the 789 for everything else.
 
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enzo011
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:05 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
If the old A330neo costs less than the new CFRP 787 / A350-900 would you be saying that the A350-900 is cannibalize by the A330neo?

Why HA was choose the 787 while the A330 was flying there please?



Every sales campaign will have different needs from the airline. It could be that in certain cases the A359 and A339 will compete for an order, but the A359 is both a larger capacity aircraft and it has longer range than the A339. So I think in the majority of cases the frames wouldn't always compete with each other. As an example, the recent EK competition had the 78X competing against the A359 for the order. So I don't know how the A339 will cannibalize orders from the A359 when the layout of the particular RFP will mean quite a difference in seating capacity between the frames.

A359 - length 66.8m with 9-abreast Y.
A339 - length 63.66 with 8-abreast Y.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:17 pm

I had speculated for a while that A330neo's could have role to play at VS as far as replacing the A330ceo's are concerned. We'll see what happens in due course and whether this is a rumour or becomes official.

JamesCousins wrote:
The A332s from what I understand were a temporary fix for the 787 downtime, but are now being used to open long & thin direct routes from Manchester to the likes of LAX & SFO - they have even recently been refurbed inside with refreshed Economy and new Premium Economy cabins: https://www.godsavethepoints.com/2018/1 ... ew-cabins/


They were initially marketed as aircraft for use at MAN, but in reality they're also being used at LGW. Although LAX was launched using the A332, SFO pre-dates this and was quietly dropped after last year.

ElroyJetson wrote:
Second, every analysis of fuel burn says the 789 burns less. Admitted it is very close up until 4000 nm where the 1% fuel burn difference begins to expand out to 4-5%.


I'm going to respond to this on the assumption that it is for A330ceo replacement.

Considering that VS operate quite a few routes that <=4,000nm and considering that VS use their A330ceo's mainly on routes that are below that figure (albeit with some exceptions such as MAN-LAX), the reported 1% fuel burn difference is probably insufficient to swing it in favour of the 787-9. Either way, it's an improvement over the A330ceo that any replacement will be benchmarked against in that department.

In any case, I agree with the others that part of this could well be driven by pricing or the ability to deliver aircraft in the timescales VS needs them. Being able to utilise the existing A330 pilot/crew pool with a lot less training compared to converting to a different type will no doubt be an attractive proposition.

Antarius wrote:
Would the 78J be in play? Or is that too much plane?


I suspect the 787-10 went out of favour once VS decided to order A350-1000's as 747 replacements. That said, with new routes being announced you can never say never if they continue on that path.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:22 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
AirwayBill wrote:
With the existing fleet of A330s and the upcoming fleet of 35K and almost certainly 339, the 789 really starts to look like an odd duck at VS. :stirthepot:

Nothing wrong with diversifying fleet types.


Sure there is. VS isn't big enough to get economies of scale in widebodies as it is. Fourteen 330s (maybe declining), seventeen 789s and ~eight 339s is pathological. Then add some A350s to that. They could be an all-787 fleet. They might get some economies of service and parts from Delta's 330 and 339 ownership but it's hard to say how much.
Last edited by MIflyer12 on Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
DylanHarvey
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:27 pm

I don’t see any reason for this. Boeing is clearly better, A350 and A330neo should soon be obsolete. Cannot come close to competing with any Boeing aircraft..sarcasm aside. This potentially has to do with 333’s going back to where they are leased from.
 
smartplane
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:30 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
Leeham and others indicated that Boeing was able to under sell the A330 Neo in the HA deal and Airbus publicly admitted they could not match the same pricing. Reports are Boeing is now able to produce a 789 for 90-95 million. If Airbus is able to profitably under sell Boeing it has not been proven.

Anyone can under sell anything, depending on the depth of their pockets.

Boeing had an objective, and it wasn't profit, but to curtail A330NEO sales in the USA.

Doubt the sale package broke even, after waiving early termination penalties and EOL payments on the 767's.
 
BrianDromey
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:59 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
VS isn't big enough to get economies of scale in widebodies as it is. Fourteen 330s (maybe declining), seventeen 789s and ~eight 339s is pathological. Then add some A350s to that. They could be an all-787 fleet. They might get some economies of service and parts from Delta's 330 and 339 ownership but it's hard to say how much.

A mixed A332/333/346/351/747/789 fleet does seem diverse for an airline operating 44 aircraft. By 2022 that will slim down to 332/333/351/789. Many airlines (BA included) are planning to operate a mixed A350/787 fleet, of similar sizes to VS. The difference is that they have large narrow body fleets, but there is limited benefits of scale there.
As I remember the A333s were to cover the 787 delays and the 4 A332s were an opportunistic grab when Air Berlin went under. I think the A330s also had the benefit of using up the A380 deposits, but I can't 100% remember that, so they are likely to be weighing up their options. Send the A330s back, as per the original plan (but replace them with 330neo, rather than 787s) or to extend the lease on them.
For the lower demand US routes the A330neo seems a reasonable choice. I'm sure they could use the 789 on these routes, like BA does, but It depends how sharp Airbus' pencil is. How keen are they to get more A330neos out the door?

smartplane wrote:
Anyone can under sell anything, depending on the depth of their pockets.

Boeing had an objective, and it wasn't profit, but to curtail A330NEO sales in the USA.

Doubt the sale package broke even, after waiving early termination penalties and EOL payments on the 767's.


A bit like the UA 737-700 order against the C-Series, I guess. On a per-unit basis it might not make much sense, but strategically the decision looks different. In the end that strategy probably hasn't worked in Boeings favour, but the idea was there.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:03 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
AirwayBill wrote:
With the existing fleet of A330s and the upcoming fleet of 35K and almost certainly 339, the 789 really starts to look like an odd duck at VS. :stirthepot:

Nothing wrong with diversifying fleet types.


Sure there is. VS isn't big enough to get economies of scale in widebodies as it is. Fourteen 330s (maybe declining), seventeen 789s and ~eight 339s is pathological. Then add some A350s to that. They could be an all-787 fleet. They might get some economies of service and parts from Delta's 330 and 339 ownership but it's hard to say how much.


787s would be quite small to replace the leisure fleet.
 
IndianicWorld
Posts: 3183
Joined: Mon Jun 04, 2001 11:32 am

Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:12 pm

I see a role for the a330neo at VS, especially as the a350-1000 will be part of their fleet. It would effectively have the following:

A330neo - medium haul
B787-9 - long haul, thinner routes
A350-1000 - long haul, larger capacity routes

It may not look as simplified as a A350-1000 and B787-9 fleet, but having a medium haul specialist aircraft like that would give it more fleet flexibility.
 
windian425
Posts: 176
Joined: Sat Dec 30, 2006 9:22 am

Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:26 pm

This would be an excellent move by VS. The A330NEO's can be based at MAN & LGW with enough range for all routes out of those Airports. A350-100's at MAN & LGW could focus on the highest density routes like MCO and seasonal to BGI.
 
marcelh
Posts: 640
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2013 12:43 pm

Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:32 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:

You have presented zero evidence that the 787 costs less in general than an A330neo, your only evidence when pressed is that in one case Boeing undercut the price to clinch a switch, at HA. Outside this you have presented zero evidence. Can you please supply any if this has changed?



If the old A330neo costs less than the new CFRP 787 / A350-900 would you be saying that the A350-900 is cannibalize by the A330neo?

Why HA was choose the 787 while the A330 was flying there please?


To an extent the A330neo does cannabilise, but given the option of letting the 787 have a free reign or having the A330neo compete but cannibalise a little, Airbus chose the latter. The A359 has a massive leap in capability and range though, its main selling point.

Why did HA choose the 787? I think (and I stress this is only speculation), that given their status as a fairly reluctant A330neo customer (switched from A358 as Airbus was keen to get rid of all orders for that model), they were ripe for a switch. Boeing offered a killer deal in order to block off the only A338 customer at the time to remove a potential challenger to the top of the NMA business case. A case of a little loss of revenue on a small order to block off a competitor completely. HA also intend to fly the 787s quite far (Europe has always been mooted) where the better fuel efficiency pays off more.

IIRC, GE had also a prominent role in the swap from A338 to B789. Together with Boeing they made an offer HA couldn’t refuse.
 
ewt340
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:43 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

Highly unlikely. But it would be useful to do the bait-and-switch tactics.

You see those airlines that sold their own aircraft to leasing companies and then leased those sold aircraft right away again? They could do that, and then after couple years they could terminated the contract.
And B787 are in demand right now, especially the B787-9 variants. Which would easily find a new home.

A330neo would have lower purchasing prices and works better for many 8-10 hours missions. And almost all of their routes are not that long. They only need few long-range aircraft to serve Chinese cities and US West Coast.
Most times, B787-9 range isn't that useful for most of their operations to begin with.

Again, commonality with A350 would be extremely useful.



Again you reference lower purchase price for the A330 Neo yet present zero evidence to support your claim. I have presented evidence that exactly contradicts what you are saying. Also, there is zero evidence the A330 Neo works better on 8-10 hour mission s than the 789. In fact, there is substantial evidence to support the 789 has better fuel burn over these stage lengths. Sorry, maybe you have information that I have not seen, but I cannot let the statements go unchallenged without evidence.


You have presented zero evidence that the 787 costs less in general than an A330neo, your only evidence when pressed is that in one case Boeing undercut the price to clinch a switch, at HA. Outside this you have presented zero evidence. Can you please supply any if this has changed?


Uhmm, B787 are built for long routes. Their efficiency would be more beneficial once they reach certain range.
A330-900neo have lower max payload and less range designed originally for short to medium haul flights. Hence the lack of range capability compared to B787-9.

Again, you expect me to provide evidence when you don't even provide yours. A bit hypocritical, don't you think?

Now, take it away : https://leehamnews.com/2014/07/17/airbus-a330-800-and-900neo-first-analysis-part-3-performance/
 
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ElroyJetson
Posts: 646
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Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:11 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
ewt340 wrote:

Highly unlikely. But it would be useful to do the bait-and-switch tactics.

You see those airlines that sold their own aircraft to leasing companies and then leased those sold aircraft right away again? They could do that, and then after couple years they could terminated the contract.
And B787 are in demand right now, especially the B787-9 variants. Which would easily find a new home.

A330neo would have lower purchasing prices and works better for many 8-10 hours missions. And almost all of their routes are not that long. They only need few long-range aircraft to serve Chinese cities and US West Coast.
Most times, B787-9 range isn't that useful for most of their operations to begin with.

Again, commonality with A350 would be extremely useful.



Again you reference lower purchase price for the A330 Neo yet present zero evidence to support your claim. I have presented evidence that exactly contradicts what you are saying. Also, there is zero evidence the A330 Neo works better on 8-10 hour mission s than the 789. In fact, there is substantial evidence to support the 789 has better fuel burn over these stage lengths. Sorry, maybe you have information that I have not seen, but I cannot let the statements go unchallenged without evidence.


You have presented zero evidence that the 787 costs less in general than an A330neo, your only evidence when pressed is that in one case Boeing undercut the price to clinch a switch, at HA. Outside this you have presented zero evidence. Can you please supply any if this has changed?



I have presented plenty of evidence. :D Airbus admitted it could not match Boeing on price in the HA deal. Per Leeham, Boeing sold the 789 for 115 million per plane to HA. They still made a healthy profit if production costs are roughly 90 million per frame. However, if you have any evidence to contradict what I am saying I would be happy to see it. :)


https://leehamnews.com/2018/02/22/hawai ... 800-787-9/

For those who would like to review the facts of the HA deal. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1387017&hilit=HA+A+330+Neo
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LX015
Posts: 115
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 2:28 pm

Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:46 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
ewt340 wrote:
Seems like they are hooked by A330 low leasing and purchasing prices and efficiency for TATL and European Leisure network.
I think many airlines would started to realized how efficient A330neo is compared to the expensive B787.

The problems with B787 would definitely be the main factor for these purchase.



I find this post humorous as there is zero evidence the A330 Neo is "more efficient" than "the expensive" 787 or that it costs less.


Its also humourous that you chose to quote "more efficient" when the poster never even claimed it was "more efficient" in his/her post that you even included. Rather:

"realized how efficient A330neo is compared to the expensive B787."
 
User avatar
MrHMSH
Posts: 2450
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 7:32 pm

Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:04 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:


Again you reference lower purchase price for the A330 Neo yet present zero evidence to support your claim. I have presented evidence that exactly contradicts what you are saying. Also, there is zero evidence the A330 Neo works better on 8-10 hour mission s than the 789. In fact, there is substantial evidence to support the 789 has better fuel burn over these stage lengths. Sorry, maybe you have information that I have not seen, but I cannot let the statements go unchallenged without evidence.


You have presented zero evidence that the 787 costs less in general than an A330neo, your only evidence when pressed is that in one case Boeing undercut the price to clinch a switch, at HA. Outside this you have presented zero evidence. Can you please supply any if this has changed?



I have presented plenty of evidence. :D Airbus admitted it could not match Boeing on price in the HA deal. Per Leeham, Boeing sold the 789 for 115 million per plane to HA. They still made a healthy profit if production costs are roughly 90 million per frame. However, if you have any evidence to contradict what I am saying I would be happy to see it. :)


https://leehamnews.com/2018/02/22/hawai ... 800-787-9/

For those who would like to review the facts of the HA deal. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1387017&hilit=HA+A+330+Neo


So you have presented evidence. For one deal. A sample size of one is however not enough to be statistically significant. They may have made a profit, but since you don’t know the A330neo’s production cost you can’t compare numbers and make such a definitive claim. Willing to go low for a deal to strategically block off a competitor doesn’t mean the same will always apply, especially as other airlines have ordered the neo since.

Now, where’s the evidence outside a fairly specific case?
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8361
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:08 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:


Again you reference lower purchase price for the A330 Neo yet present zero evidence to support your claim. I have presented evidence that exactly contradicts what you are saying. Also, there is zero evidence the A330 Neo works better on 8-10 hour mission s than the 789. In fact, there is substantial evidence to support the 789 has better fuel burn over these stage lengths. Sorry, maybe you have information that I have not seen, but I cannot let the statements go unchallenged without evidence.


You have presented zero evidence that the 787 costs less in general than an A330neo, your only evidence when pressed is that in one case Boeing undercut the price to clinch a switch, at HA. Outside this you have presented zero evidence. Can you please supply any if this has changed?



I have presented plenty of evidence. :D Airbus admitted it could not match Boeing on price in the HA deal. Per Leeham, Boeing sold the 789 for 115 million per plane to HA. They still made a healthy profit if production costs are roughly 90 million per frame. However, if you have any evidence to contradict what I am saying I would be happy to see it. :)


https://leehamnews.com/2018/02/22/hawai ... 800-787-9/

For those who would like to review the facts of the HA deal. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1387017&hilit=HA+A+330+Neo


Very simple answer with HA. Boeing sold for a very low price below production cost. Airbus can not follow, because that would be dumping, because the sale is to an USA airline. All to kill off the A330-800. We have seen Boeing doing that before, when they tried to kill the at that time Bombardier C-series.
 
Checklist787
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:19 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:

You have presented zero evidence that the 787 costs less in general than an A330neo, your only evidence when pressed is that in one case Boeing undercut the price to clinch a switch, at HA. Outside this you have presented zero evidence. Can you please supply any if this has changed?



I have presented plenty of evidence. :D Airbus admitted it could not match Boeing on price in the HA deal. Per Leeham, Boeing sold the 789 for 115 million per plane to HA. They still made a healthy profit if production costs are roughly 90 million per frame. However, if you have any evidence to contradict what I am saying I would be happy to see it. :)


https://leehamnews.com/2018/02/22/hawai ... 800-787-9/

For those who would like to review the facts of the HA deal. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1387017&hilit=HA+A+330+Neo


Very simple answer with HA. Boeing sold for a very low price below production cost. Airbus can not follow, because that would be dumping, because the sale is to an USA airline. All to kill off the A330-800. We have seen Boeing doing that before, when they tried to kill the at that time Bombardier C-series.


If it's true what you say (and it's possible) Airbus can do the same thing to airlines in Europe?
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8361
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:31 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:


I have presented plenty of evidence. :D Airbus admitted it could not match Boeing on price in the HA deal. Per Leeham, Boeing sold the 789 for 115 million per plane to HA. They still made a healthy profit if production costs are roughly 90 million per frame. However, if you have any evidence to contradict what I am saying I would be happy to see it. :)


https://leehamnews.com/2018/02/22/hawai ... 800-787-9/

For those who would like to review the facts of the HA deal. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1387017&hilit=HA+A+330+Neo


Very simple answer with HA. Boeing sold for a very low price below production cost. Airbus can not follow, because that would be dumping, because the sale is to an USA airline. All to kill off the A330-800. We have seen Boeing doing that before, when they tried to kill the at that time Bombardier C-series.


If it's true what you say (and it's possible) Airbus can do the same thing to airlines in Europe?


Not really, because the competition laws are quite different. In the USA the law against dumping does only apply to foreign competition. In the EU the dumping laws does not make a distinction between foreign or local companies.
 
Checklist787
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:38 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

Very simple answer with HA. Boeing sold for a very low price below production cost. Airbus can not follow, because that would be dumping, because the sale is to an USA airline. All to kill off the A330-800. We have seen Boeing doing that before, when they tried to kill the at that time Bombardier C-series.


If it's true what you say (and it's possible) Airbus can do the same thing to airlines in Europe?


Not really, because the competition laws are quite different. In the USA the law against dumping does only apply to foreign competition. In the EU the dumping laws does not make a distinction between foreign or local companies.


Okay,
but Airbus does not have a FAL of A330 in Mobile to exercise the pression of the prices?
 
ewt340
Posts: 730
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:16 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:

If it's true what you say (and it's possible) Airbus can do the same thing to airlines in Europe?


Not really, because the competition laws are quite different. In the USA the law against dumping does only apply to foreign competition. In the EU the dumping laws does not make a distinction between foreign or local companies.


Okay,
but Airbus does not have a FAL of A330 in Mobile to exercise the pression of the prices?


I don't think the Facility in Mobile are equipped to produce any parts for A330. It's only for A320 family.

Airbus would get penalized if they sold A330neo using the dumping strategy. It's not long ago before Boeing throw tantrum over the C-series.
 
ewt340
Posts: 730
Joined: Tue Jul 10, 2012 7:22 pm

Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:19 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:


Again you reference lower purchase price for the A330 Neo yet present zero evidence to support your claim. I have presented evidence that exactly contradicts what you are saying. Also, there is zero evidence the A330 Neo works better on 8-10 hour mission s than the 789. In fact, there is substantial evidence to support the 789 has better fuel burn over these stage lengths. Sorry, maybe you have information that I have not seen, but I cannot let the statements go unchallenged without evidence.


You have presented zero evidence that the 787 costs less in general than an A330neo, your only evidence when pressed is that in one case Boeing undercut the price to clinch a switch, at HA. Outside this you have presented zero evidence. Can you please supply any if this has changed?



I have presented plenty of evidence. :D Airbus admitted it could not match Boeing on price in the HA deal. Per Leeham, Boeing sold the 789 for 115 million per plane to HA. They still made a healthy profit if production costs are roughly 90 million per frame. However, if you have any evidence to contradict what I am saying I would be happy to see it. :)


https://leehamnews.com/2018/02/22/hawai ... 800-787-9/

For those who would like to review the facts of the HA deal. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1387017&hilit=HA+A+330+Neo


Oh yeah, we remember when Boeing dumping B787 in order for HA to convert. Special local discount.
 
speedbird52
Posts: 758
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:14 pm

MIflyer12 wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
AirwayBill wrote:
With the existing fleet of A330s and the upcoming fleet of 35K and almost certainly 339, the 789 really starts to look like an odd duck at VS. :stirthepot:

Nothing wrong with diversifying fleet types.


Sure there is. VS isn't big enough to get economies of scale in widebodies as it is. Fourteen 330s (maybe declining), seventeen 789s and ~eight 339s is pathological. Then add some A350s to that. They could be an all-787 fleet. They might get some economies of service and parts from Delta's 330 and 339 ownership but it's hard to say how much.

I suppose they got a good enough discount on the A339s that the costs of having three aircraft types instead of two are offset. I should also add that the A350s and A330s will have a common flight crew pool
 
TTailedTiger
Posts: 1241
Joined: Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:19 am

Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:14 pm

Continental767 wrote:
The RR engine issues on the 787 clearly spooked them.

I bet they got a killer deal on the NEO. Good for fleet commonality as well.


Doesn't RR makes the engines for the A330neo? Maybe VS should have looked past national pride when making engine selections for the 787.
 
Checklist787
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:02 pm

ewt340 wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:

Not really, because the competition laws are quite different. In the USA the law against dumping does only apply to foreign competition. In the EU the dumping laws does not make a distinction between foreign or local companies.


Okay,
but Airbus does not have a FAL of A330 in Mobile to exercise the pression of the prices?


I don't think the Facility in Mobile are equipped to produce any parts for A330. It's only for A320 family.

Airbus would get penalized if they sold A330neo using the dumping strategy. It's not long ago before Boeing throw tantrum over the C-series.


Okay!

Thank you for correcting my error regarding the A320 FAL in Alabama!

However, I do not understand the mentality of not accepting Boeing's victories.
Let's be fair play :highfive:
Congratulations to Boeing my friend. Now, move on ...
 
User avatar
ElroyJetson
Posts: 646
Joined: Fri May 26, 2017 5:04 am

Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:18 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:
MrHMSH wrote:

You have presented zero evidence that the 787 costs less in general than an A330neo, your only evidence when pressed is that in one case Boeing undercut the price to clinch a switch, at HA. Outside this you have presented zero evidence. Can you please supply any if this has changed?



I have presented plenty of evidence. :D Airbus admitted it could not match Boeing on price in the HA deal. Per Leeham, Boeing sold the 789 for 115 million per plane to HA. They still made a healthy profit if production costs are roughly 90 million per frame. However, if you have any evidence to contradict what I am saying I would be happy to see it. :)


https://leehamnews.com/2018/02/22/hawai ... 800-787-9/

For those who would like to review the facts of the HA deal. https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtop ... +A+330+Neo


Very simple answer with HA. Boeing sold for a very low price below production cost. Airbus can not follow, because that would be dumping, because the sale is to an USA airline. All to kill off the A330-800. We have seen Boeing doing that before, when they tried to kill the at that time Bombardier C-series.


You are wrong. Read the Leeham story link i provided. Boeing did not sell the 789 at a loss to HA. That is completely false. Production cost is 90 million. Sale price is 115 million.

Why do Airbus fans perpetuate these falsehoods?
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lee757
Posts: 52
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2017 10:07 pm

Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:23 pm

Makes perfect sense for them surely? Arent, the 333's on 12 year leases from the early 00's meaning in the next few years they could turn them over. I read somewhere (on here) that the prices for them weren't the keenest/ costing more than the temp 332's when comparing seat count and lease cost so that could potentially play into it. Can they get similar prices and better efficiency on neos whilst streamlining into one model 330neo instead of multiple engined ceo versions. If they can get similar leasing prices then a no brainer, especially if 350 and 787 slots are sold out for a while.

They could add some options for future growth, inc doing well with flybe and possibly TCX longhaul if that comes off.

Then they'd have trents across 787, 350 and 330's so must be some decent commonality in that.
 
Checklist787
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Reuters: Virgin Atlantic Close to A330neo order

Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:39 pm

ElroyJetson wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
ElroyJetson wrote:


I have presented plenty of evidence. :D Airbus admitted it could not match Boeing on price in the HA deal. Per Leeham, Boeing sold the 789 for 115 million per plane to HA. They still made a healthy profit if production costs are roughly 90 million per frame. However, if you have any evidence to contradict what I am saying I would be happy to see it. :)


https://leehamnews.com/2018/02/22/hawai ... 800-787-9/

For those who would like to review the facts of the HA deal. viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1387017&hilit=HA+A+330+Neo


Very simple answer with HA. Boeing sold for a very low price below production cost. Airbus can not follow, because that would be dumping, because the sale is to an USA airline. All to kill off the A330-800. We have seen Boeing doing that before, when they tried to kill the at that time Bombardier C-series.


You are wrong. Read the Leeham story link i provided. Boeing did not sell the 789 at a loss to HA. That is completely false. Production cost is 90 million. Sale price is 115 million.

Why do Airbus fans perpetuate these falsehoods?


It is very sad for them to be reduced to that

It's sickly and scary.

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