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B1168
Posts: 507
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:37 pm

BA777FO wrote:
acavpics wrote:
BA777FO wrote:

Aside from the apparently imminent IAD-LHR route where AA was supposed to start taking over a BA frequency...

There are a lot of markets AA could use an A321LR/XLR in, it could revive JFK for them. It could even challenge Delta in Boston. Depends on how far AA is prepared to go in those markets. Then again, they may just double down in PHL.


I highly doubt AA is gonna restart international/TATL flights out of BOS.


With their current fleet, of course not. That's why the A321LR could be a game changer. Emphasis on could, as per this comment and my original. It just depends on how adventerous and how competitive the AA/BA/IB JBA wants to be from Boston.


Not particularly important, but didn’t EI just joined that game? AY don’t fly to BOS so doesn’t count, but EI probably should
 
B1168
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sun Jun 02, 2019 9:39 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Almost certainly a lock for PHL and PHX if ordered. Given the AA retreat from JFK, I'd be surprised if any of these go to JFK, as these would basically be Hawaii birds (PHX) and TATL birds (PHL). It then puts pressure on UA to do the same, as the B39M isn't large enough to do TATL and have Polaris on it. I expect DL to convert some of its A21N order to the LR variant as well, and B6 already has the LR variant of the A21N on order, which will be used to launch LON service, and could also be used for South America service.


In addition, i will not be surprised if some of them get based in DFW and MIA for Central and South America, plus seasonal ANC and Hawaiian secondary airports for DFW.
 
golfingboy
Posts: 48
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:17 pm

Strato2 wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
There is truth to this rumor, but it will be a conversion of 10-15 existing A321neos at no additional cost to AA.


If there is a conversion to a more capable aircraft you can bet It won't be at no additional cost.


There is one big piece of the strategic puzzle on Airbus' part. We all know that the endgame AA will need somewhere around 25-30 airframes for long and thin 3000-3500 miler missions. Getting AA onboard at no cost for 10-15 frames (minimal opportunity cost) will give Airbus a nice edge over Boeing when the NMA is ready for sale when AA is ready to order 10-20 more frames down the road.

I think this is a big opportunity for AA not just for long and thin international routes but to expand their niche transcontinental service. I could see a mixture with the A321Ts and a handful of A321LRs making it possible to consistently offer a premium product on BOS/DCA/MIA-LAX alongside JFK-LAX/SFO. This is a wild theory but possible given the recent trends on those routes.
 
AWACSooner
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:18 pm

Great job, Boeing, on killing the 757 without a true replacement. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed watching all the longtime 757 operators order and operate the 321 over the past decade because of your lack of foresight!
 
Checklist787
Posts: 221
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:41 pm

AWACSooner wrote:
Great job, Boeing, on killing the 757 without a true replacement. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed watching all the longtime 757 operators order and operate the 321 over the past decade because of your lack of foresight!


You seem to ignore that the 757 had become expensive to produce.
That's why they stopped production in 2004.

Since a lot of water has flowed under the bridges. They planned a replacement.

Did not you hear about the NMA/797?
 
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compensateme
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:46 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
Great job, Boeing, on killing the 757 without a true replacement. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed watching all the longtime 757 operators order and operate the 321 over the past decade because of your lack of foresight!


You seem to ignore that the 757 had become expensive to produce.
That's why they stopped production in 2004.

Since a lot of water has flowed under the bridges. They planned a replacement.

Did not you hear about the NMA/797?


The 757 ended production because, quite frankly, nobody was buying it. Let’s not rewrite history.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
NYCAAer
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sun Jun 02, 2019 10:49 pm

There’s a rumor among the New York employees that the A321LR is going to be used on a second JFK-CDG and a return to JFK-BRU.
 
Ishrion
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:01 pm

NYCAAer wrote:
There’s a rumor among the New York employees that the A321LR is going to be used on a second JFK-CDG and a return to JFK-BRU.


Interesting, would AA restart PHL-BRU since they cut it a couple years ago?
 
1989worstyear
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:04 pm

compensateme wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
Great job, Boeing, on killing the 757 without a true replacement. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed watching all the longtime 757 operators order and operate the 321 over the past decade because of your lack of foresight!


You seem to ignore that the 757 had become expensive to produce.
That's why they stopped production in 2004.

Since a lot of water has flowed under the bridges. They planned a replacement.

Did not you hear about the NMA/797?


The 757 ended production because, quite frankly, nobody was buying it. Let’s not rewrite history.


Correct - it died because it did not come out during the current modern era (1988.5+). The CPU was still hard to come by in 1982.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
9w748capt
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Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:27 am

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:05 pm

Will AA outfit these with built in IFE? Or even ovens? Will they manage to squeeze in 7 across?
 
Checklist787
Posts: 221
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:07 pm

compensateme wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
Great job, Boeing, on killing the 757 without a true replacement. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed watching all the longtime 757 operators order and operate the 321 over the past decade because of your lack of foresight!


You seem to ignore that the 757 had become expensive to produce.
That's why they stopped production in 2004.

Since a lot of water has flowed under the bridges. They planned a replacement.

Did not you hear about the NMA/797?


The 757 ended production because, quite frankly, nobody was buying it. Let’s not rewrite history.


What you say is the consequence of an expensive aircraft to produce. This is the real story
 
VS11
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:10 pm

NYCAAer wrote:
There’s a rumor among the New York employees that the A321LR is going to be used on a second JFK-CDG and a return to JFK-BRU.


From JFK, they should also be going to AMS and VIE at the very least.
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:23 pm

I like it. How about TATL A321(X)LR on really thin routes (KEF, SNN, BFS, MAN, etc.)?
Thinking of a good signature is hard...
 
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compensateme
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:28 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
compensateme wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:

You seem to ignore that the 757 had become expensive to produce.
That's why they stopped production in 2004.

Since a lot of water has flowed under the bridges. They planned a replacement.

Did not you hear about the NMA/797?


The 757 ended production because, quite frankly, nobody was buying it. Let’s not rewrite history.


What you say is the consequence of an expensive aircraft to produce. This is the real story


That’s not the real story. The 757 was never that popular of an aircraft beyond the domestic market, and by the mid-2000s most of the legacies were deferring orders or selling aircraft as it took delivery of them, while the ones that were buying new aircraft were going with the 739 and 321. Boeing made numerous sales pitches to keep the 757 in production. Nobody wanted it.
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
mikejepp
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:40 pm

Is there any chance this could be a response to Jetblue starting Europe flights? Could we see AA flying any BOS-Europe routes with them?

Also, is CLT-Europe doable with an A321LR? If so, what potential markets could there be? Maybe... LIS, MAN, AMS, KEF? Some South America?
 
Ishrion
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sun Jun 02, 2019 11:47 pm

mikejepp wrote:
Is there any chance this could be a response to Jetblue starting Europe flights? Could we see AA flying any BOS-Europe routes with them?

Also, is CLT-Europe doable with an A321LR? If so, what potential markets could there be? Maybe... LIS, MAN, AMS, KEF? Some South America?


With a max 4,000 nmi, it can reach up to CLT-ZRH, but with winds it would need to be weight restricted IF they operate something that long.
 
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acavpics
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:01 am

AWACSooner wrote:
Great job, Boeing, on killing the 757 without a true replacement. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed watching all the longtime 757 operators order and operate the 321 over the past decade because of your lack of foresight!


I bet that Boeing is gonna rush to roll out a competing airframe and make another mess like they did with the 737 MAX.
 
TTailedTiger
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:12 am

acavpics wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
Great job, Boeing, on killing the 757 without a true replacement. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed watching all the longtime 757 operators order and operate the 321 over the past decade because of your lack of foresight!


I bet that Boeing is gonna rush to roll out a competing airframe and make another mess like they did with the 737 MAX.


What else does your Crystal ball say? Do you realize how long Boeing has been working on the NMA? And Boeing isn't going to get worked up over a handful of A321LRs. And anyone who thinks they'll be used at JFK isn't paying attention. Parker is on record as being anti-NYC. PHL is their northeast hub. JFK has steadily been on the decline.
 
golfingboy
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:13 am

VS11 wrote:
NYCAAer wrote:
There’s a rumor among the New York employees that the A321LR is going to be used on a second JFK-CDG and a return to JFK-BRU.


From JFK, they should also be going to AMS and VIE at the very least.


VIE isn't going to happen as its outside of the operational MTOW range of the A321LR. This can work if JFK-VIE is very high yielding which the market isn't. Basically anything past Germany is not plausible from NYC.
 
ABEguy
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:20 am

Gulfstream500 wrote:
I like it. How about TATL A321(X)LR on really thin routes (KEF, SNN, BFS, MAN, etc.)?


MAN is not a thin route. Until this year AA was using a A330-200 on PHL-MAN. This year they upgraded PRG to a 330, consequently leaving MAN with a B767. However, beginning in early 2020 MAN will be operated on the 787.
 
eamondzhang
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:54 am

9w748capt wrote:
Will they manage to squeeze in 7 across?

I know what you're trying to say but this is not legally possible ever on a narrowbody.

Michael
 
MIflyer12
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:54 am

Ishrion wrote:
mikejepp wrote:
Is there any chance this could be a response to Jetblue starting Europe flights? Could we see AA flying any BOS-Europe routes with them?

Also, is CLT-Europe doable with an A321LR? If so, what potential markets could there be? Maybe... LIS, MAN, AMS, KEF? Some South America?


With a max 4,000 nmi, it can reach up to CLT-ZRH, but with winds it would need to be weight restricted IF they operate something that long.


Where did you come up with 4,000nm as practical range? Here it's generally accepted that LRs have less range than 757s (the can cover about 95% of missions language) and 757s in AA/DL/UA business configs struggle with routes more than 4,000 statute miles on westbound TATL. I don't see AA doing a premium-heavy lightweight config. MRTC in 2019 = More Rows Throughout Coach.

golfingboy wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
sxf24 wrote:
There is truth to this rumor, but it will be a conversion of 10-15 existing A321neos at no additional cost to AA.


If there is a conversion to a more capable aircraft you can bet It won't be at no additional cost.


There is one big piece of the strategic puzzle on Airbus' part. We all know that the endgame AA will need somewhere around 25-30 airframes for long and thin 3000-3500 miler missions. Getting AA onboard at no cost for 10-15 frames (minimal opportunity cost) will give Airbus a nice edge over Boeing when the NMA is ready for sale when AA is ready to order 10-20 more frames down the road.


I don't see too many 3,000+ statute mile routes with 757s today. Sure, a few: MIA-BSB, MIA-VVI, EDI-PHL, ANC-DFW at 3,043. IMHO the 'need 321LR range' routes is well under the 32 757s in the fleet today.

As for big TATL growth out of BOS or JFK... hah hah hah. Years of route rationalizations have shown how they've walked away from competition in NYC and BOS. From CLT they won't be going to Continental Europe, and even from PHL it would be marginal. Do they wait for the XLR? Then it's niche of a niche.
 
Ishrion
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:55 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
mikejepp wrote:
Is there any chance this could be a response to Jetblue starting Europe flights? Could we see AA flying any BOS-Europe routes with them?

Also, is CLT-Europe doable with an A321LR? If so, what potential markets could there be? Maybe... LIS, MAN, AMS, KEF? Some South America?


With a max 4,000 nmi, it can reach up to CLT-ZRH, but with winds it would need to be weight restricted IF they operate something that long.


Where did you come up with 4,000nm as practical range? Here it's generally accepted that LRs have less range than 757s (the can cover about 95% of missions language) and 757s in AA/DL/UA business configs struggle with routes more than 4,000 statute miles on westbound TATL. I don't see AA doing a premium-heavy lightweight config. MRTC in 2019 = More Rows Throughout Coach.

golfingboy wrote:
Strato2 wrote:

If there is a conversion to a more capable aircraft you can bet It won't be at no additional cost.


There is one big piece of the strategic puzzle on Airbus' part. We all know that the endgame AA will need somewhere around 25-30 airframes for long and thin 3000-3500 miler missions. Getting AA onboard at no cost for 10-15 frames (minimal opportunity cost) will give Airbus a nice edge over Boeing when the NMA is ready for sale when AA is ready to order 10-20 more frames down the road.


I don't see too many 3,000+ statute mile routes with 757s today. Sure, a few: MIA-BSB, MIA-VVI, EDI-PHL, ANC-DFW at 3,043. IMHO the 'need 321LR range' routes is well under the 32 757s in the fleet today.

As for big TATL growth out of BOS or JFK... hah hah hah. Years of route rationalizations have shown how they've walked away from competition in NYC and BOS. From CLT they won't be going to Continental Europe, and even from PHL it would be marginal. Do they wait for the XLR? Then it's niche of a niche.


Google search, A321lr range

That’s a MAX range, not a practical range hence why I said IF they operate that route on an A321lr, which obviously, I doubt they will. It was an example of how far it can reach as that guy was asking...
 
Boof02671
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:20 am

You do remember AA delayed Airbus and Boeing deliveries.
 
N649DL
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:28 am

PatrickZ80 wrote:
Replacement for the 757 indeed, those planes are getting old.


I think they should be more worried about the 737 MAX ban and keeping the existing 757s around for those missions temporarily.

Most of AA's 757s aren't all that old. Majority are from the late 1990s / early 2000s with a few domestic AA and ex-US frames from 1993-1995 that drag the average fleet age up a bit.
 
BBJ777X
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:30 am

If AA uses the 102-seat 321T configuration on 321LR, maybe they can achieve 4000 nmi of range...
 
9w748capt
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:45 am

eamondzhang wrote:
9w748capt wrote:
Will they manage to squeeze in 7 across?

I know what you're trying to say but this is not legally possible ever on a narrowbody.

Michael


I know. I'm just saying - AA seems to be trying extra hard to trash their product these days. If they could put 7 across in a NB they would.
 
NYCAAer
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:57 am

MIflyer12 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
mikejepp wrote:
Is there any chance this could be a response to Jetblue starting Europe flights? Could we see AA flying any BOS-Europe routes with them?

Also, is CLT-Europe doable with an A321LR? If so, what potential markets could there be? Maybe... LIS, MAN, AMS, KEF? Some South America?


With a max 4,000 nmi, it can reach up to CLT-ZRH, but with winds it would need to be weight restricted IF they operate something that long.


Where did you come up with 4,000nm as practical range? Here it's generally accepted that LRs have less range than 757s (the can cover about 95% of missions language) and 757s in AA/DL/UA business configs struggle with routes more than 4,000 statute miles on westbound TATL. I don't see AA doing a premium-heavy lightweight config. MRTC in 2019 = More Rows Throughout Coach.

golfingboy wrote:
Strato2 wrote:

If there is a conversion to a more capable aircraft you can bet It won't be at no additional cost.


There is one big piece of the strategic puzzle on Airbus' part. We all know that the endgame AA will need somewhere around 25-30 airframes for long and thin 3000-3500 miler missions. Getting AA onboard at no cost for 10-15 frames (minimal opportunity cost) will give Airbus a nice edge over Boeing when the NMA is ready for sale when AA is ready to order 10-20 more frames down the road.


I don't see too many 3,000+ statute mile routes with 757s today. Sure, a few: MIA-BSB, MIA-VVI, EDI-PHL, ANC-DFW at 3,043. IMHO the 'need 321LR range' routes is well under the 32 757s in the fleet today.

As for big TATL growth out of BOS or JFK... hah hah hah. Years of route rationalizations have shown how they've walked away from competition in NYC and BOS. From CLT they won't be going to Continental Europe, and even from PHL it would be marginal. Do they wait for the XLR? Then it's niche of a niche.


You never know... I was ridiculed when I said that AA was going to leave London Gatwick entirely in favor of Heathrow. It happened.
 
n7371f
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:06 am

The Harry Stonecipher special.

AWACSooner wrote:
Great job, Boeing, on killing the 757 without a true replacement. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed watching all the longtime 757 operators order and operate the 321 over the past decade because of your lack of foresight!
 
1989worstyear
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Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:33 am

n7371f wrote:
The Harry Stonecipher special.

AWACSooner wrote:
Great job, Boeing, on killing the 757 without a true replacement. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed watching all the longtime 757 operators order and operate the 321 over the past decade because of your lack of foresight!


It was a dead-end design though. Too many 1982 parts and subassemblies :frown:

Innovation stopped after 1988 - hence why a 30 year old A320-200 is 95% parts-compatible with these A321LR's AA is ordering.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
seat1a
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:35 am

behramjee wrote:
Even if this turns out to be true, I still foresee AA ordering dozens of Boeing NMA aircraft along with being a launch customer for the type.

AA can use the A321Neo-LR well out of MIA/DFW to LATAM + out of PHL to UK/Western Europe.


How far can the NEO-LR reach into South America from DFW? Curious about eligible routes that could use this aircraft.
 
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767333ER
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:36 am

1989worstyear wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:

Unlike their A320's or 772's from 2001-02. :cheeky:


Or their 737-800s from the same timeframe. What’s your point?


A 2002-built 757 is always viewed as old/aging on this site, whereas a similar-aged 777, A330, 738, or A320 is never referred to as such.

Oh well - more material for beer cans, and it will be interesting to see if it is the XLR, what design changes A made (1988 wing or fuel tank optimization :scratchchin: ).

Because in 2002 the 757 was nearing the end of its production and was beginning to be outdated in terms of economics at that point. The 777 and 738 were relatively fresh still and the A320 and A330 had already been receiving incremental improvements with the A320 already being on what was basically it’s 2nd generation of engines. If you care to research, about 1/4 of their current 757 fleet is from the 90s and on any flight where even a same aged A321 could do it, the A321 would be much cheaper. A 2002 built plane is decently old as it has likely lived more than half of its service life in its original role. Just remember we’re all the same ones saying that AA was replacing their old/aging 738s with the MAX... well at least will be whenever they go again.
1989worstyear wrote:
n7371f wrote:
The Harry Stonecipher special.

AWACSooner wrote:
Great job, Boeing, on killing the 757 without a true replacement. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed watching all the longtime 757 operators order and operate the 321 over the past decade because of your lack of foresight!


It was a dead-end design though. Too many 1982 parts and subassemblies :frown:

Innovation stopped after 1988 - hence why a 30 year old A320-200 is 95% parts-compatible with these A321LR's AA is ordering.

And yet they’re still slapping together 767s with their 1982 parts and sub assemblies and 737s with some of the 1964 parts and sub assemblies. It was only a dead end because they made it one. They could’ve kept the thing relevant if they had actually bothered to. The thing you have to consider is how much range it would have if they put engines from today on it how much farther it would go let alone engines from 15 years ago if they had any. Now they would have to consider whether that range is something they want or not. If no, the plane is overbuilt for its mission which is today’s reality. What they could do then is stretch it to make use of the overbuilt parts or redo it to trim it down keeping the range where it is which would mean less fuel therefore less gross weight and then it starts to sound more like the A321. The reality is today the A321 is all the metal and plastic you need with today’s technology to fully replace the 757. In hindsight yeah they’re probably not missing out on that much, but I’m sure it would’ve been a better use of money than the 747-8.
Last edited by 767333ER on Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
Been on: 732 733 734 73G 738 752 763 A319 A320 A321 CRJ CR7 CRA/CR9 E145 E175 E190 F28 MD-82 MD-83 C172R C172S P2006T
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:40 am

BBJ777X wrote:
If AA uses the 102-seat 321T configuration on 321LR, maybe they can achieve 4000 nmi of range...


Maybe they can, but why would they? It wouldn't be economical to put only 102 seats in a plane that can seat far more. And for most of their routes (and the routes this plane would most likely fly) they don't need that much range anyway. So instead of extending it's range they would be putting in more seats so they can keep their ticket prices low.
 
Amiga500
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:20 am

Miami wrote:
UNCONFIRMED

JonNYC on Twitter said:
hearing from multiple angles that an AA order for the A321LR is imminent, potentially at the Paris air show.

https://twitter.com/xJonNYC/status/1134 ... 00229?s=20

Thoughts?

- Miami


Rewind back to 2011 and it was American Airlines ordering the neo that sent a clear signal to Boeing; "we ain't waiting for paper aircraft" - which torpedoed Boeings original plan of 737RS/Y1.

Now, in 2019, it looks like again American Airlines are about to torpedo Boeings updated Y1 plan.


Boeing have sat on the pot for too long and done nothing.
 
Boeing74741R
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:24 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:

Unlike their A320's or 772's from 2001-02. :cheeky:


Or their 737-800s from the same timeframe. What’s your point?


A 2002-built 757 is always viewed as old/aging on this site, whereas a similar-aged 777, A330, 738, or A320 is never referred to as such.

Oh well - more material for beer cans, and it will be interesting to see if it is the XLR, what design changes A made (1988 wing or fuel tank optimization :scratchchin: ).


Putting age aside, if you're an airline such as AA that are progressively reducing their 757 fleet with mainly A321's, it will get to a point soon where a decision has to be made whether there's a case for holding on to a much-reduced fleet of 757's (e.g. capability) or replacing them with the best available aircraft. 757's built towards the end of the 757 production run can't really be considered as old just yet, but age isn't always the defining factor.

As much as I like 757's, there is a compelling case for AA to completely replace the remaining 757's with A321's and/or with more examples of other aircraft currently in their fleet.
 
tphuang
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:31 pm

NYCAAer wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:

With a max 4,000 nmi, it can reach up to CLT-ZRH, but with winds it would need to be weight restricted IF they operate something that long.


Where did you come up with 4,000nm as practical range? Here it's generally accepted that LRs have less range than 757s (the can cover about 95% of missions language) and 757s in AA/DL/UA business configs struggle with routes more than 4,000 statute miles on westbound TATL. I don't see AA doing a premium-heavy lightweight config. MRTC in 2019 = More Rows Throughout Coach.

golfingboy wrote:

There is one big piece of the strategic puzzle on Airbus' part. We all know that the endgame AA will need somewhere around 25-30 airframes for long and thin 3000-3500 miler missions. Getting AA onboard at no cost for 10-15 frames (minimal opportunity cost) will give Airbus a nice edge over Boeing when the NMA is ready for sale when AA is ready to order 10-20 more frames down the road.


I don't see too many 3,000+ statute mile routes with 757s today. Sure, a few: MIA-BSB, MIA-VVI, EDI-PHL, ANC-DFW at 3,043. IMHO the 'need 321LR range' routes is well under the 32 757s in the fleet today.

As for big TATL growth out of BOS or JFK... hah hah hah. Years of route rationalizations have shown how they've walked away from competition in NYC and BOS. From CLT they won't be going to Continental Europe, and even from PHL it would be marginal. Do they wait for the XLR? Then it's niche of a niche.


You never know... I was ridiculed when I said that AA was going to leave London Gatwick entirely in favor of Heathrow. It happened.


Except that aa has already lost a lot of it's ff in NYC with all it's cuts. It's a lot more costly to build up and win new customers vs trying to sustain existing ff base. If aa wanted to sustain it's NYC position, the time was 2 years ago. But now it's proudly telling people that it's finally making money from JFK in international market. Is aa at a strong enough financial position to re assert itself in NYC? Doesn't look like it when all of it's planned expansion have been at DFW and CLT.
 
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keesje
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:41 pm

There are many secondairy (non legacy hub) European destinations, Bruxelles, Hamburg, Glasgow, Manchester, Barcelona, Oslo, Stockholm, Milan, Geneva etc that are an attractive target for US carriers from their East coast hubs.

DL, Jetblue, American, United, Air Canada will make sure not being left out, waiting for a possible 797 from 2027 with competing A321's buzzing the Atlantic. Also from European carriers into their home markets.
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EK77WNH
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 12:54 pm

[list=][/list]
acavpics wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
us330 wrote:
Considering the source, I'd put money on it. JonNYC is pretty plugged in with AA--he has tweeted several proposed/rumored actions by AA that later became official.


Aside from the apparently imminent IAD-LHR route where AA was supposed to start taking over a BA frequency...

There are a lot of markets AA could use an A321LR/XLR in, it could revive JFK for them. It could even challenge Delta in Boston. Depends on how far AA is prepared to go in those markets. Then again, they may just double down in PHL.


I highly doubt AA is gonna restart international/TATL flights out of BOS.


There seems to be little interest from AA in Boston, beyond what they already do there. I sure hope BA holds onto all four BOS flights. Especially if a 777 gets traded for an A321.
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Blankbarcode
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:06 pm

Absolutely no sympathy for Boeing for sitting on this for too long when they writing has been on the wall for the past decade. Congrats to Airbus with their success in the type, and to American if the rumor turns out true! I still feel it's not truly a 757 replacement, but I don't think something like the 757 is what airlines are looking for when it comes to certain finer details I guess.
 
dfw88
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:25 pm

gen2stew wrote:
If this order does come to fruition I hope that the Tempe management outfits these with lie flats and other international standard accoutrements and is able to run them against B6 and DL when they're not flying transatlantic or deep south on domestic flights that need them (BOS-LAX/SFO, JFK-SEA/SAN, MIA-SFO/SEA).


The JV with BA/IB/AY requires that transatlantic routes be flown with planes equipped with lie-flat seats, so if the plan with this rumored order really is to fly from PHL to Europe then yes, they will have lie-flats.
 
IndianicWorld
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:31 pm

Blankbarcode wrote:
Absolutely no sympathy for Boeing for sitting on this for too long when they writing has been on the wall for the past decade. Congrats to Airbus with their success in the type, and to American if the rumor turns out true! I still feel it's not truly a 757 replacement, but I don't think something like the 757 is what airlines are looking for when it comes to certain finer details I guess.


Funding a new aircraft program doesn’t come cheap, and when Boeing has the 77X in development, the 737MAX issues and some challenges with the 787 engines that it would have to devote attention to, it is hardly in a place to launch a new type of the project scale that the 797 would be.

Airbus has been fairly clever by reworking 2 of its biggest sellers (A32X and A330), whilst delivering the A350 program, along with delivering incremental upgrades along the way in the form of LR and XLR where it sees the opportunity to do so.

It would appear that Airbus forced their hand when they launched the A32Xneo, leaving Boeing with no other option but to go down the route it did to create the MAX, but unfortunately that has created a few issues to deal with.

Timing seems to be everything, and it would appear to be a better move to wait for the right time than rush into an investment of the scale of the 797. When it stacks up, it will happen.
 
bgm
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:37 pm

Eyad89 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Ahh, dithering, something Airbus should have done rather than sinking $billions into the hole known as A380.



Whataboutism.


Indeed. A feeble attempt to throw an A-vs-B turd into the conversation. What does the A380 have to do with AA choosing the A321LR? :spin:

This should prove a good 757 replacement for AA if the rumor is true. I wonder if DL and UA will follow suit?
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Weatherwatcher1
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:39 pm

NYCAAer wrote:
There’s a rumor among the New York employees that the A321LR is going to be used on a second JFK-CDG and a return to JFK-BRU.


I’m curious what the seat mile costs of an A321LR would be in order for it to compete. JFK-CDG is where the competition is flying A330s, 777s, 787s and A380s.

I would expect the A321LR to have higher CASM. It also can’t fly cargo. That would lead me to believe that it would be used on routes with no competition. Secondary cities in Europe and South America seems more likely to me.

Miami to Brasilia or Phoenix to Honolulu seems like a more likely use of the A321LR for AA. I’m somewhat surprised they haven’t already converted some of their existing A321neo orders.
Last edited by Weatherwatcher1 on Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
sargester
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:39 pm

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DLHAM
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:43 pm

A321LR would be a great addition, they could open new routes from BOS to Europe or MIA to South America.
The XLR would even open opportunities from PHL and ORD to Destinations in "deeper" Europe as well. Like Germany, Denmark, Sweden, Southern France, Switzerland and maybe even Northern Italy.
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WayexTDI
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:57 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
Great job, Boeing, on killing the 757 without a true replacement. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed watching all the longtime 757 operators order and operate the 321 over the past decade because of your lack of foresight!


You seem to ignore that the 757 had become expensive to produce.
That's why they stopped production in 2004.

Since a lot of water has flowed under the bridges. They planned a replacement.

Did not you hear about the NMA/797?

It doesn't really matter why the 757 production was stopped; be it for high cost or lack of interest from the airlines (that's the chicken or the egg question), Boeing dropped that product line without a replacement.

And yes, we've all heard about the NMA/797; except we've heard many different stories and have yet to see the real proposal. So, Boeing still does not have a 757 replacement officially on offer.
 
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keesje
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:34 pm

Image
4000NM, 4500NM, 4700NM ranges from JFK.

Jon Ostrower believes the XLR could be disruptive for some markets. 4000-4500NM at narrowbody costs levels, makes e.g. TATL much less adventarous / more affordable for many operators. It's the old hub by-pass story going next level in a low risk way. https://theaircurrent.com/aircraft-development/airbus-makes-a-case-for-disruptive-stability-in-the-a321xlr/
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Checklist787
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:03 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
Great job, Boeing, on killing the 757 without a true replacement. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed watching all the longtime 757 operators order and operate the 321 over the past decade because of your lack of foresight!


You seem to ignore that the 757 had become expensive to produce.
That's why they stopped production in 2004.

Since a lot of water has flowed under the bridges. They planned a replacement.

Did not you hear about the NMA/797?

It doesn't really matter why the 757 production was stopped; be it for high cost or lack of interest from the airlines (that's the chicken or the egg question), Boeing dropped that product line without a replacement.

And yes, we've all heard about the NMA/797; except we've heard many different stories and have yet to see the real proposal. So, Boeing still does not have a 757 replacement officially on offer.


The reasons are important since the 737-900 / MAX-9 and soon the 737MAX-10 replace it.

Now they have the proposal of the NMA / 797. They probably do not want to reveal their game early enough not to make the same mistakes as their 787.

It is too early to say they have not proposed anything. The year is not over and we should have something at PAS'19 next June.

And i'm not talking about NMA launch yet!
 
Checklist787
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:30 pm

keesje wrote:
A321's buzzing the Atlantic. Also from European carriers into their home markets.


Can you tell us which airlines are buzzing the Atlantic with their A321. And what do you mean by "buzzing please ?
 
sagechan
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:33 pm

If they order the XLR, which some reports give range of 4700nm, so maybe 4300nm real world. For AA that could match the not great demand so far to BLQ and TXL, open up the Nordic cities and JV partner hub HEL from PHL, though a few of those really push it.

Seating would be interesting. I'd guess 16J but would be fun to see them add a W cabin, maybe 8-12 seats. That should leave room for about 120-130 Y.
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