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1989worstyear
Posts: 572
Joined: Sun Dec 04, 2016 6:53 pm

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 3:37 pm

767333ER wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:

Or their 737-800s from the same timeframe. What’s your point?


A 2002-built 757 is always viewed as old/aging on this site, whereas a similar-aged 777, A330, 738, or A320 is never referred to as such.

Oh well - more material for beer cans, and it will be interesting to see if it is the XLR, what design changes A made (1988 wing or fuel tank optimization :scratchchin: ).

Because in 2002 the 757 was nearing the end of its production and was beginning to be outdated in terms of economics at that point. The 777 and 738 were relatively fresh still and the A320 and A330 had already been receiving incremental improvements with the A320 already being on what was basically it’s 2nd generation of engines. If you care to research, about 1/4 of their current 757 fleet is from the 90s and on any flight where even a same aged A321 could do it, the A321 would be much cheaper. A 2002 built plane is decently old as it has likely lived more than half of its service life in its original role. Just remember we’re all the same ones saying that AA was replacing their old/aging 738s with the MAX... well at least will be whenever they go again.
1989worstyear wrote:
n7371f wrote:
The Harry Stonecipher special.



It was a dead-end design though. Too many 1982 parts and subassemblies :frown:

Innovation stopped after 1988 - hence why a 30 year old A320-200 is 95% parts-compatible with these A321LR's AA is ordering.

And yet they’re still slapping together 767s with their 1982 parts and sub assemblies and 737s with some of the 1964 parts and sub assemblies. It was only a dead end because they made it one. They could’ve kept the thing relevant if they had actually bothered to. The thing you have to consider is how much range it would have if they put engines from today on it how much farther it would go let alone engines from 15 years ago if they had any. Now they would have to consider whether that range is something they want or not. If no, the plane is overbuilt for its mission which is today’s reality. What they could do then is stretch it to make use of the overbuilt parts or redo it to trim it down keeping the range where it is which would mean less fuel therefore less gross weight and then it starts to sound more like the A321. The reality is today the A321 is all the metal and plastic you need with today’s technology to fully replace the 757. In hindsight yeah they’re probably not missing out on that much, but I’m sure it would’ve been a better use of money than the 747-8.


I think in hindsight - Boeing should have dropped both the 757/767, and 737 in 1999 and created a new NB with modern 1988 technology.

Also, the -100 is considered to be the first generation,
and all of the -200's are the second generation as they are all nearly identical over a 30 year time span. LH just retired D-AIPA after nearly 30 years, and she is about 95% parts-compatible with a NEO LR.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
mikejepp
Posts: 210
Joined: Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:47 pm

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:33 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
767333ER wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:

A 2002-built 757 is always viewed as old/aging on this site, whereas a similar-aged 777, A330, 738, or A320 is never referred to as such.

Oh well - more material for beer cans, and it will be interesting to see if it is the XLR, what design changes A made (1988 wing or fuel tank optimization :scratchchin: ).

Because in 2002 the 757 was nearing the end of its production and was beginning to be outdated in terms of economics at that point. The 777 and 738 were relatively fresh still and the A320 and A330 had already been receiving incremental improvements with the A320 already being on what was basically it’s 2nd generation of engines. If you care to research, about 1/4 of their current 757 fleet is from the 90s and on any flight where even a same aged A321 could do it, the A321 would be much cheaper. A 2002 built plane is decently old as it has likely lived more than half of its service life in its original role. Just remember we’re all the same ones saying that AA was replacing their old/aging 738s with the MAX... well at least will be whenever they go again.
1989worstyear wrote:

It was a dead-end design though. Too many 1982 parts and subassemblies :frown:

Innovation stopped after 1988 - hence why a 30 year old A320-200 is 95% parts-compatible with these A321LR's AA is ordering.

And yet they’re still slapping together 767s with their 1982 parts and sub assemblies and 737s with some of the 1964 parts and sub assemblies. It was only a dead end because they made it one. They could’ve kept the thing relevant if they had actually bothered to. The thing you have to consider is how much range it would have if they put engines from today on it how much farther it would go let alone engines from 15 years ago if they had any. Now they would have to consider whether that range is something they want or not. If no, the plane is overbuilt for its mission which is today’s reality. What they could do then is stretch it to make use of the overbuilt parts or redo it to trim it down keeping the range where it is which would mean less fuel therefore less gross weight and then it starts to sound more like the A321. The reality is today the A321 is all the metal and plastic you need with today’s technology to fully replace the 757. In hindsight yeah they’re probably not missing out on that much, but I’m sure it would’ve been a better use of money than the 747-8.


I think in hindsight - Boeing should have dropped both the 757/767, and 737 in 1999 and created a new NB with modern 1988 technology.

Also, the -100 is considered to be the first generation,
and all of the -200's are the second generation as they are all nearly identical over a 30 year time span. LH just retired D-AIPA after nearly 30 years, and she is about 95% parts-compatible with a NEO LR.


.....
 
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jfklganyc
Posts: 5372
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:58 pm

JFK is now smaller than BOS for AA.

They are not reasserting themselves there.

They capitulated

These planes will be used from Philly and PHX as someone said above
 
Kikko19
Posts: 520
Joined: Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:45 pm

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:12 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
keesje wrote:
A321's buzzing the Atlantic. Also from European carriers into their home markets.


Can you tell us which airlines are buzzing the Atlantic with their A321. And what do you mean by "buzzing please ?
l guess he means TP, EI, SK so far that ordered the type
 
downdata
Posts: 544
Joined: Wed Feb 17, 2016 2:38 am

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:24 pm

They will already be operating the neos, why would it be a surprise if they order thr lr/xlr
 
WayexTDI
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:31 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:

You seem to ignore that the 757 had become expensive to produce.
That's why they stopped production in 2004.

Since a lot of water has flowed under the bridges. They planned a replacement.

Did not you hear about the NMA/797?

It doesn't really matter why the 757 production was stopped; be it for high cost or lack of interest from the airlines (that's the chicken or the egg question), Boeing dropped that product line without a replacement.

And yes, we've all heard about the NMA/797; except we've heard many different stories and have yet to see the real proposal. So, Boeing still does not have a 757 replacement officially on offer.


The reasons are important since the 737-900 / MAX-9 and soon the 737MAX-10 replace it.

The 757 is a much bigger and much more capable airplane than the 737-900ER / 737 MAX9 /737 MAX10.
Not sure the comparison fits.

Checklist787 wrote:
Now they have the proposal of the NMA / 797. They probably do not want to reveal their game early enough not to make the same mistakes as their 787.

It is too early to say they have not proposed anything. The year is not over and we should have something at PAS'19 next June.

And i'm not talking about NMA launch yet!

The 757 ended production 15 years ago!!! It took Boeing 15 years to realize there was a market?
In the meanwhile, Airbus has created a low risk variant that will do (almost) everything a 757 can do, has offered it to market and pocketed orders.

It's been said over and over again, and it's an opinion I share: the fact that Boeing keeps pushing offering the 797/NMA/whatever-you-want-to-call-it shows that the market is too small to pay back all the investment and that the technology needed to make it a game changer is not currently available, and not foreseeable.
 
NYCAAer
Posts: 656
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:10 pm

jfklganyc wrote:
JFK is now smaller than BOS for AA.

They are not reasserting themselves there.

They capitulated

These planes will be used from Philly and PHX as someone said above


The information about possible routes out of JFK came from the vice president of network planning during a recent town hall meeting, and shown on the internal employee website, Jetnet. All that’s happened so far is that it’s under consideration. No definite plans as of yet. So you can take it however you like. Personally, I think the A321LR isn’t a good choice for JFK-CDG. Anyone who knows better would be on the 777-200.
 
Checklist787
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:14 pm

Kikko19 wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
keesje wrote:
A321's buzzing the Atlantic. Also from European carriers into their home markets.


Can you tell us which airlines are buzzing the Atlantic with their A321. And what do you mean by "buzzing please ?
l guess he means TP, EI, SK so far that ordered the type


... And according to you it is this small movement that will cause a buzz over the Atlantic? You would have said "Tsunami" I would have believed you..
WayexTDI wrote:

It's been said over and over again, and it's an opinion I share: the fact that Boeing keeps pushing offering the 797/NMA/whatever-you-want-to-call-it shows that the market is too small to pay back all the investment and that the technology needed to make it a game changer is not currently available, and not foreseeable.


Respect people who believe in the NMA, and do not impose your ideas because others on Airlienrs.net believe. Wait until at least PAS'19 ...

Thanks.
 
jagraham
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:21 pm

Ishrion wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:
Ishrion wrote:

With a max 4,000 nmi, it can reach up to CLT-ZRH, but with winds it would need to be weight restricted IF they operate something that long.


Where did you come up with 4,000nm as practical range? Here it's generally accepted that LRs have less range than 757s (the can cover about 95% of missions language) and 757s in AA/DL/UA business configs struggle with routes more than 4,000 statute miles on westbound TATL. I don't see AA doing a premium-heavy lightweight config. MRTC in 2019 = More Rows Throughout Coach.

golfingboy wrote:

There is one big piece of the strategic puzzle on Airbus' part. We all know that the endgame AA will need somewhere around 25-30 airframes for long and thin 3000-3500 miler missions. Getting AA onboard at no cost for 10-15 frames (minimal opportunity cost) will give Airbus a nice edge over Boeing when the NMA is ready for sale when AA is ready to order 10-20 more frames down the road.


I don't see too many 3,000+ statute mile routes with 757s today. Sure, a few: MIA-BSB, MIA-VVI, EDI-PHL, ANC-DFW at 3,043. IMHO the 'need 321LR range' routes is well under the 32 757s in the fleet today.

As for big TATL growth out of BOS or JFK... hah hah hah. Years of route rationalizations have shown how they've walked away from competition in NYC and BOS. From CLT they won't be going to Continental Europe, and even from PHL it would be marginal. Do they wait for the XLR? Then it's niche of a niche.


Google search, A321lr range

That’s a MAX range, not a practical range hence why I said IF they operate that route on an A321lr, which obviously, I doubt they will. It was an example of how far it can reach as that guy was asking...


Ranges less than 3000 nm don't need an A321LR and its deactivated forward hold.

The A321XLR will be a true transatlantic plane (not just England to New York), and will have 1 more cargo position than the A321LR to boot.

Besides why wait for Paris when the A321LR is already out there?

I vote for the A321XLR
 
Checklist787
Posts: 144
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:42 pm

jagraham wrote:

Ranges less than 3000 nm don't need an A321LR and its deactivated forward hold.

The A321XLR will be a true transatlantic plane (not just England to New York), and will have 1 more cargo position than the A321LR to boot.

Besides why wait for Paris when the A321LR is already out there?

I vote for the A321XLR


Except that you do not know the true expectations of the airlines in terms of number of seats and the type of the J seat.

If you think 102 seats is a real transatlantic...

So I vote for the NMA / 797!

https://www.seatguru.com/airlines/Ameri ... 21_new.php
 
Swadian
Posts: 537
Joined: Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:56 am

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:57 pm

jagraham wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

Where did you come up with 4,000nm as practical range? Here it's generally accepted that LRs have less range than 757s (the can cover about 95% of missions language) and 757s in AA/DL/UA business configs struggle with routes more than 4,000 statute miles on westbound TATL. I don't see AA doing a premium-heavy lightweight config. MRTC in 2019 = More Rows Throughout Coach.



I don't see too many 3,000+ statute mile routes with 757s today. Sure, a few: MIA-BSB, MIA-VVI, EDI-PHL, ANC-DFW at 3,043. IMHO the 'need 321LR range' routes is well under the 32 757s in the fleet today.

As for big TATL growth out of BOS or JFK... hah hah hah. Years of route rationalizations have shown how they've walked away from competition in NYC and BOS. From CLT they won't be going to Continental Europe, and even from PHL it would be marginal. Do they wait for the XLR? Then it's niche of a niche.


Google search, A321lr range

That’s a MAX range, not a practical range hence why I said IF they operate that route on an A321lr, which obviously, I doubt they will. It was an example of how far it can reach as that guy was asking...


Ranges less than 3000 nm don't need an A321LR and its deactivated forward hold.

The A321XLR will be a true transatlantic plane (not just England to New York), and will have 1 more cargo position than the A321LR to boot.

Besides why wait for Paris when the A321LR is already out there?

I vote for the A321XLR


I vote for Douglas DC-8-62. Wonder how a DC-8-62 would do with PW GTF power. Bet it could squeeze out 6500 nm range.
John Wang, Founder and President of Inland Streamliner.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1513
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:03 pm

jagraham wrote:
Ishrion wrote:
MIflyer12 wrote:

Where did you come up with 4,000nm as practical range? Here it's generally accepted that LRs have less range than 757s (the can cover about 95% of missions language) and 757s in AA/DL/UA business configs struggle with routes more than 4,000 statute miles on westbound TATL. I don't see AA doing a premium-heavy lightweight config. MRTC in 2019 = More Rows Throughout Coach.



I don't see too many 3,000+ statute mile routes with 757s today. Sure, a few: MIA-BSB, MIA-VVI, EDI-PHL, ANC-DFW at 3,043. IMHO the 'need 321LR range' routes is well under the 32 757s in the fleet today.

As for big TATL growth out of BOS or JFK... hah hah hah. Years of route rationalizations have shown how they've walked away from competition in NYC and BOS. From CLT they won't be going to Continental Europe, and even from PHL it would be marginal. Do they wait for the XLR? Then it's niche of a niche.


Google search, A321lr range

That’s a MAX range, not a practical range hence why I said IF they operate that route on an A321lr, which obviously, I doubt they will. It was an example of how far it can reach as that guy was asking...


Ranges less than 3000 nm don't need an A321LR and its deactivated forward hold.

The A321XLR will be a true transatlantic plane (not just England to New York), and will have 1 more cargo position than the A321LR to boot.

Besides why wait for Paris when the A321LR is already out there?

I vote for the A321XLR

First of all the A321s are bulk loaded and don’t have cargo positions as the dont use pallets nor containers.

Airbus added ACT to the A321s that took away space in the cargo bins. If they add another fuel tank, it will take away space, not add.
 
Americanil96
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Apr 06, 2019 2:47 am

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:12 pm

I think it's a good decision for AA to get the A321LR but IMO it depends on the hub. A321LR is good for hubs like MIA, DFW, JFK, CLT, and PHL. MIA and DFW because they are both prime LATAM gateways for AA as they can be used for either more capacity for current routes or new routes with low demand to these countries. while JFK ,CLT and PHL is the same story but with European Markets (i.e. Nice, Warsaw, Brussels, Copenhagen, Stockholm,etc)
Rawr
 
BrianDromey
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:18 pm

If AA needs an aircraft relatively quickly to cover the remaining role of the 757 what else can they choose? While the LR/XLR can't do everything a 757 can, it can cover enough that buying it makes sense for what it can do and 'misusing' a 777/787/A330 makes sense for that last 3-5%. At this stage the 757 at AA is an 'orphan' fleet. It sounds strange to me, but it's true. Out of 727 narrowbodies airfleets lists, just 34 are 757s. Thats about 15% of the peak fleet.

Boof02671 wrote:
First of all the A321s are bulk loaded and don’t have cargo positions as the dont use pallets nor containers.

Airbus added ACT to the A321s that took away space in the cargo bins. If they add another fuel tank, it will take away space, not add.


Maybe they are bulk-loaded at the airport you have spotted them, but the A319/20/21 can have palletised cargo - indeed Airbus' assumptions are based on the LR using containerised baggage. A321 operators the world over used containerised cargo holds on the A320 family, BA, EI, IB, LH, LX all spring to mind. In contrast the US3 bulk load their A32x's. The XLR is supposed to have a redesigned centre section and fuel take. While the tanks will be bigger because they are in the aircraft structure the will take up less space and be lighter - so there will be simultaneously more room for fuel AND luggage/cargo.
 
JayinKitsap
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Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2005 9:55 am

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:30 pm

Please stop the 757 shoulda coulda dance. It stopped production nearly 15 years ago after the backlog ended with no orders in the prior 3 years. It is a wonderful plane, possibly my favorite, but it probably has less than 5 remaining years in pax service. The low hour /low cycle ones will continue on as freighters.
 
musman9853
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Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 12:30 pm

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:36 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
Correct - it died because it did not come out during the current modern era (1988.5+). The CPU was still hard to come by in 1982.


no, it died because it's economic niche was fulfilled at the time.
Welcome to the City Beautiful.
 
Boof02671
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Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:41 pm

BrianDromey wrote:
If AA needs an aircraft relatively quickly to cover the remaining role of the 757 what else can they choose? While the LR/XLR can't do everything a 757 can, it can cover enough that buying it makes sense for what it can do and 'misusing' a 777/787/A330 makes sense for that last 3-5%. At this stage the 757 at AA is an 'orphan' fleet. It sounds strange to me, but it's true. Out of 727 narrowbodies airfleets lists, just 34 are 757s. Thats about 15% of the peak fleet.

Boof02671 wrote:
First of all the A321s are bulk loaded and don’t have cargo positions as the dont use pallets nor containers.

Airbus added ACT to the A321s that took away space in the cargo bins. If they add another fuel tank, it will take away space, not add.


Maybe they are bulk-loaded at the airport you have spotted them, but the A319/20/21 can have palletised cargo - indeed Airbus' assumptions are based on the LR using containerised baggage. A321 operators the world over used containerised cargo holds on the A320 family, BA, EI, IB, LH, LX all spring to mind. In contrast the US3 bulk load their A32x's. The XLR is supposed to have a redesigned centre section and fuel take. While the tanks will be bigger because they are in the aircraft structure the will take up less space and be lighter - so there will be simultaneously more room for fuel AND luggage/cargo.

No airline in the US uses containers nor pallets on the A320 family.
 
impilot
Posts: 232
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2018 1:38 pm

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:51 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
jagraham wrote:
Ishrion wrote:

Google search, A321lr range

That’s a MAX range, not a practical range hence why I said IF they operate that route on an A321lr, which obviously, I doubt they will. It was an example of how far it can reach as that guy was asking...


Ranges less than 3000 nm don't need an A321LR and its deactivated forward hold.

The A321XLR will be a true transatlantic plane (not just England to New York), and will have 1 more cargo position than the A321LR to boot.

Besides why wait for Paris when the A321LR is already out there?

I vote for the A321XLR

First of all the A321s are bulk loaded and don’t have cargo positions as the dont use pallets nor containers.

Airbus added ACT to the A321s that took away space in the cargo bins. If they add another fuel tank, it will take away space, not add.

The XLR will have internal conformal fuel tanks that take the the same cargo space as the 3 ACTs in the LR, but make better use of the space being conformal, while being lighter. So fuel capacity increases, weight decreases, and cargo space remains roughly the same as the LR. At least that’s my understanding.
 
jagraham
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2016 11:10 pm

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:01 pm

Boof02671 wrote:
jagraham wrote:
Ishrion wrote:

Google search, A321lr range

That’s a MAX range, not a practical range hence why I said IF they operate that route on an A321lr, which obviously, I doubt they will. It was an example of how far it can reach as that guy was asking...


Ranges less than 3000 nm don't need an A321LR and its deactivated forward hold.

The A321XLR will be a true transatlantic plane (not just England to New York), and will have 1 more cargo position than the A321LR to boot.

Besides why wait for Paris when the A321LR is already out there?

I vote for the A321XLR

First of all the A321s are bulk loaded and don’t have cargo positions as the dont use pallets nor containers.

Airbus added ACT to the A321s that took away space in the cargo bins. If they add another fuel tank, it will take away space, not add.



The cargo containers can still be used on an A321LR; they just can't hold all the passengers' bags if over 160 pax. Leeham did a great analysis on that.

The A321XLR will have an integrated fuel tank which will use the space of 2 ACTs and unused space (wheel well space is prominently mentioned) to get 4700 nm worth of fuel. And an MTOW increase to 104t to carry it all. By replacing the ACTs (0.4t empty including plumbing) with fixed bulkheads, the spaces between and around the ACTs become available for fuel. And another 1.2t frees up even before weight savings.

For airlines that are not LCCs / ULCCs, the A321XLR is the way to go.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:23 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
It's been said over and over again, and it's an opinion I share: the fact that Boeing keeps pushing offering the 797/NMA/whatever-you-want-to-call-it shows that the market is too small to pay back all the investment and that the technology needed to make it a game changer is not currently available, and not foreseeable.


Respect people who believe in the NMA, and do not impose your ideas because others on Airlienrs.net believe. Wait until at least PAS'19 ...

Thanks.

Oh, I'm going to wait, like many will. I'm just not going to hold my breath.

By the way, I'm not "imposing my ideas"; I'm sharing my opinion. If you don't like it, feel free to ignore it; or just block me, I don't care.
 
JonNYC
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Mar 27, 2018 1:26 pm

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:38 pm

Miami wrote:
UNCONFIRMED

JonNYC on Twitter said:
hearing from multiple angles that an AA order for the A321LR is imminent, potentially at the Paris air show.

https://twitter.com/xJonNYC/status/1134 ... 00229?s=20

Thoughts?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... boeing-gap
 
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Revelation
Posts: 20634
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:52 pm

JonNYC wrote:
Miami wrote:
UNCONFIRMED

JonNYC on Twitter said:
hearing from multiple angles that an AA order for the A321LR is imminent, potentially at the Paris air show.

https://twitter.com/xJonNYC/status/1134 ... 00229?s=20

Thoughts?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... boeing-gap

Thing is, nothing in that article says a deal is "imminent", it just says that AA is "taking a hard look" at A321XLR.

It says:

While no announcement is planned for this month’s Paris Air Show, aircraft deals sometimes come together quickly, one of the people said.

Which is pretty much the definition of fence sitting, IMO.

It also says the XLRs may come from redirecting some of AA's existing A320 family orders, and the only way they could arrive before 2023 or 2024 is if existing orders are converted.

To me, the juciest part of the article is the claim of adding 900 nm of range on top of A321LR (not A321neo).

If that's true, it's much better than the 500 nm of earlier rumors.

It also says a debate simmers within Airbus as to when to make the announcement, some within the company want to do it at Paris, others wait till the NMA finally gets announced so they have a response in hand.

Of course I'd love to have it at Paris.

If JL was still in charge, he'd drop the bomb now without regard to what Boeing will or won't do.
Last edited by Revelation on Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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VS11
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:31 pm

American will be insane not to order the LR/XLR. One could argue that their BA TATL JV may become obsolete at some point. Why share revenue with BA when they can deploy efficient aircraft to many European destinations from Boston, Philly and NYC?
 
speedbird52
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:00 pm

Does anyone have a comparison chart of the A321LR and 757-200s range/payload capability?
 
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Miami
Topic Author
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Fri Jun 07, 2019 8:19 pm

speedbird52 wrote:
Does anyone have a comparison chart of the A321LR and 757-200s range/payload capability?

Image

Source: AviatorJoe.net
Aviation is proof that given, the will, we have the capacity to achieve the impossible. - Eddie Rickenbacker
 
AirwayBill
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:13 pm

Miami wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Does anyone have a comparison chart of the A321LR and 757-200s range/payload capability?

Image

Source: AviatorJoe.net


Surprised about the mach number. A321LR should have the same normal cruise speed as the A321neo or the original A321, aka M0.78.

0.82 is already A330/340 type of cruise speed, +0.04 without rewing and other substantial aerodynamic improvements is unlikely.

Average mach number for 757 is correct though, M0.80 it is.
 
airzona11
Posts: 1482
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:26 pm

VS11 wrote:
American will be insane not to order the LR/XLR. One could argue that their BA TATL JV may become obsolete at some point. Why share revenue with BA when they can deploy efficient aircraft to many European destinations from Boston, Philly and NYC?


This keeps being repeated as it the A321XLR is a miracle aircraft. It might be a great aircraft, the current A321s are awesome. But, the legacy/major airlines are not in the business of long thin routes. AA DL UA, for instance, could all be flying fully depreciated 757s across the Atlantic, with only fuel and ops costs, but they are not. The whole point of JVs and what they have opened up is connecting hubs on either side of the Atlantic. The major airlines are chasing premium yield passengers.

What routes are not connected today that this plane would open up? AA has not deployed the NEOs transatlantic while startup airlines like Primera were supposed to change the game by doing so. They operate them in their domestic network and eventually to Hawaii. AA is going to operate these if they can get in more seats. They are not going to operate them on long haul thin routes, in any meaningful number of frames.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8361
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:39 pm

For the A321 normal cruse mach 0.78 max cruise mach 0.82. Both numbers are correct.

The wing sweep for both the 757 and A321 are 25`, so there should not actually be a difference in optimal cruise speed.
 
sagechan
Posts: 277
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:14 pm

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:41 pm

airzona11 wrote:
VS11 wrote:
American will be insane not to order the LR/XLR. One could argue that their BA TATL JV may become obsolete at some point. Why share revenue with BA when they can deploy efficient aircraft to many European destinations from Boston, Philly and NYC?


This keeps being repeated as it the A321XLR is a miracle aircraft. It might be a great aircraft, the current A321s are awesome. But, the legacy/major airlines are not in the business of long thin routes. AA DL UA, for instance, could all be flying fully depreciated 757s across the Atlantic, with only fuel and ops costs, but they are not. The whole point of JVs and what they have opened up is connecting hubs on either side of the Atlantic. The major airlines are chasing premium yield passengers.

What routes are not connected today that this plane would open up? AA has not deployed the NEOs transatlantic while startup airlines like Primera were supposed to change the game by doing so. They operate them in their domestic network and eventually to Hawaii. AA is going to operate these if they can get in more seats. They are not going to operate them on long haul thin routes, in any meaningful number of frames.


AA, DL and UA are all flying 757s TATL today. 757s that need a plan to be replaced. What NB TATL does for the legacies is provide opportunity to exploit smaller destinations from their hubs and to extend seasonal flying by matching capacity in shoulder seasons.

For an Airline like AA which is already the largest A321 operator in the world a common fleet for those missions makes sense.
717, 733, 734, 738, 744, 752, 763, 772, 77W, 789, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A359, MD88, CRJ, CR7, CR9, DH1, DH2, DH3, S340, ER4, E170, E175, E190/CO, NW, US, AC, NH, AA, UA, DL, WN, WS, SK, VY, LA, QF, AR, AV, MH, KA
 
AirwayBill
Posts: 120
Joined: Fri Mar 29, 2019 8:37 am

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Fri Jun 07, 2019 9:57 pm

mjoelnir wrote:
For the A321 normal cruse mach 0.78 max cruise mach 0.82. Both numbers are correct.

The wing sweep for both the 757 and A321 are 25`, so there should not actually be a difference in optimal cruise speed.


Indeed, my point is they are never close to maximum cruise mach during normal ops at all, so comparing the regular cruise mach of the 757 and the max cruise mach of the A321 is a bit uneven.

Performance wise though it's just a detail of course, an extra 0.02 won't make a 30-40min flight time difference like on a LH/ULH flight.
 
VS11
Posts: 1423
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:04 pm

airzona11 wrote:
VS11 wrote:
American will be insane not to order the LR/XLR. One could argue that their BA TATL JV may become obsolete at some point. Why share revenue with BA when they can deploy efficient aircraft to many European destinations from Boston, Philly and NYC?


This keeps being repeated as it the A321XLR is a miracle aircraft. It might be a great aircraft, the current A321s are awesome.


The A321XLR is a miracle aircraft because it makes long thin routes economically viable. How? By matching capacity with demand.

airzona11 wrote:
But, the legacy/major airlines are not in the business of long thin routes. AA DL UA, for instance, could all be flying fully depreciated 757s across the Atlantic, with only fuel and ops costs, but they are not. The whole point of JVs and what they have opened up is connecting hubs on either side of the Atlantic. The major airlines are chasing premium yield passengers.


No. Just No.
1. Airlines are not chasing premium yield passengers. They are chasing a return on their capital investment. They can and do provide service to premium passengers using smaller aircraft like A318 (BA) and A321 - AA Transcontinental and B6 Mint.
2. Purpose of JV - not hub to hub flying at all but to avoid competition - plain and simple.

airzona11 wrote:
What routes are not connected today that this plane would open up? AA has not deployed the NEOs transatlantic while startup airlines like Primera were supposed to change the game by doing so. They operate them in their domestic network and eventually to Hawaii. AA is going to operate these if they can get in more seats. They are not going to operate them on long haul thin routes, in any meaningful number of frames.


For AA - NYC/BOS - Berlin,Vienna, Brussels, Amsterdam, Prague, Budapest, Munich, Zurich are all a good start.
 
airzona11
Posts: 1482
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:13 pm

VS11 wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
VS11 wrote:
American will be insane not to order the LR/XLR. One could argue that their BA TATL JV may become obsolete at some point. Why share revenue with BA when they can deploy efficient aircraft to many European destinations from Boston, Philly and NYC?


This keeps being repeated as it the A321XLR is a miracle aircraft. It might be a great aircraft, the current A321s are awesome.


The A321XLR is a miracle aircraft because it makes long thin routes economically viable. How? By matching capacity with demand.

airzona11 wrote:
But, the legacy/major airlines are not in the business of long thin routes. AA DL UA, for instance, could all be flying fully depreciated 757s across the Atlantic, with only fuel and ops costs, but they are not. The whole point of JVs and what they have opened up is connecting hubs on either side of the Atlantic. The major airlines are chasing premium yield passengers.


No. Just No.
1. Airlines are not chasing premium yield passengers. They are chasing a return on their capital investment. They can and do provide service to premium passengers using smaller aircraft like A318 (BA) and A321 - AA Transcontinental and B6 Mint.
2. Purpose of JV - not hub to hub flying at all but to avoid competition - plain and simple.
.


1- Great example of an airline chasing PREMIUM passengers, little Y passengers, and only flying from hubs to majors cities or hub. Those examples make my exact point.
2- What JV routes are AA flying that don't touch a hub?
 
sagechan
Posts: 277
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:14 pm

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:22 pm

airzona11 wrote:
VS11 wrote:
airzona11 wrote:


2- What JV routes are AA flying that don't touch a hub?


AA flies to, I believe 21 destinations in Europe now, with 20 from PHL. LHR and MAD are the only true OW partner hubs, though BCN and DUB could be considered.
717, 733, 734, 738, 744, 752, 763, 772, 77W, 789, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A359, MD88, CRJ, CR7, CR9, DH1, DH2, DH3, S340, ER4, E170, E175, E190/CO, NW, US, AC, NH, AA, UA, DL, WN, WS, SK, VY, LA, QF, AR, AV, MH, KA
 
VS11
Posts: 1423
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:24 pm

airzona11 wrote:
VS11 wrote:
airzona11 wrote:

This keeps being repeated as it the A321XLR is a miracle aircraft. It might be a great aircraft, the current A321s are awesome.


The A321XLR is a miracle aircraft because it makes long thin routes economically viable. How? By matching capacity with demand.

airzona11 wrote:
But, the legacy/major airlines are not in the business of long thin routes. AA DL UA, for instance, could all be flying fully depreciated 757s across the Atlantic, with only fuel and ops costs, but they are not. The whole point of JVs and what they have opened up is connecting hubs on either side of the Atlantic. The major airlines are chasing premium yield passengers.


No. Just No.
1. Airlines are not chasing premium yield passengers. They are chasing a return on their capital investment. They can and do provide service to premium passengers using smaller aircraft like A318 (BA) and A321 - AA Transcontinental and B6 Mint.
2. Purpose of JV - not hub to hub flying at all but to avoid competition - plain and simple.
.


1- Great example of an airline chasing PREMIUM passengers, little Y passengers, and only flying from hubs to majors cities or hub. Those examples make my exact point.
2- What JV routes are AA flying that don't touch a hub?


1. No, they are not proving your point. Operations chasing premium passengers only are companies like PrivatAir, NetJets, etc.
2. Flying to/from hubs is a means to a goal. Not the goal in itself.
 
airzona11
Posts: 1482
Joined: Wed Dec 17, 2014 5:44 am

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:35 pm

VS11 wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
VS11 wrote:

The A321XLR is a miracle aircraft because it makes long thin routes economically viable. How? By matching capacity with demand.



No. Just No.
1. Airlines are not chasing premium yield passengers. They are chasing a return on their capital investment. They can and do provide service to premium passengers using smaller aircraft like A318 (BA) and A321 - AA Transcontinental and B6 Mint.
2. Purpose of JV - not hub to hub flying at all but to avoid competition - plain and simple.
.


1- Great example of an airline chasing PREMIUM passengers, little Y passengers, and only flying from hubs to majors cities or hub. Those examples make my exact point.
2- What JV routes are AA flying that don't touch a hub?


1. No, they are not proving your point. Operations chasing premium passengers only are companies like PrivatAir, NetJets, etc.
2. Flying to/from hubs is a means to a goal. Not the goal in itself.


1- What do you call the passengers in PY or J?
2- Sure, airlines fly airplanes to make money, airplanes are the means no the goal, what is your point?
 
speedbird52
Posts: 750
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:07 pm

Miami wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Does anyone have a comparison chart of the A321LR and 757-200s range/payload capability?

Image

Source: AviatorJoe.net

Thank you but I was hoping for something like we have seen in the Project sunrise threads that show how range goes down as payload capacity goes up, as I believe this is where the A321 struggles vs the 757. Even on this chart we can see that it is MTOW limited. If Airbus can boost the MTOW enough, the case for NMA becomes even smaller.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 8361
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:36 am

AirwayBill wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
For the A321 normal cruse mach 0.78 max cruise mach 0.82. Both numbers are correct.

The wing sweep for both the 757 and A321 are 25`, so there should not actually be a difference in optimal cruise speed.


Indeed, my point is they are never close to maximum cruise mach during normal ops at all, so comparing the regular cruise mach of the 757 and the max cruise mach of the A321 is a bit uneven.

Performance wise though it's just a detail of course, an extra 0.02 won't make a 30-40min flight time difference like on a LH/ULH flight.


The point is, that there should not be a difference between the 757 and A321. Wing sweep back is the most important factor for optimal cruse speed, both have 25¨.
 
rigo
Posts: 155
Joined: Thu Sep 01, 2005 11:52 am

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:17 am

Wasn't a prospective AA order for the A320 Neo the reason that pushed Boeing to introduce the 737MAX in the first place?
 
rj1385
Posts: 87
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2007 9:09 am

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:40 am

sagechan wrote:
airzona11 wrote:
VS11 wrote:


AA flies to, I believe 21 destinations in Europe now, with 20 from PHL. LHR and MAD are the only true OW partner hubs, though BCN and DUB could be considered.


Was just surprised actually that AA or Finnair do not have a flight to connect to Helsinki.
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6257
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:58 am

compensateme wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
AWACSooner wrote:
Great job, Boeing, on killing the 757 without a true replacement. I’ve thoroughly enjoyed watching all the longtime 757 operators order and operate the 321 over the past decade because of your lack of foresight!


You seem to ignore that the 757 had become expensive to produce.
That's why they stopped production in 2004.

Since a lot of water has flowed under the bridges. They planned a replacement.

Did not you hear about the NMA/797?


The 757 ended production because, quite frankly, nobody was buying it. Let’s not rewrite history.


Spot on. Repeat after me: Boeing stopped building the 757 because no-one would buy it. There was no market for it.

Other than that Boeing should have kept the line open. :roll:
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 6257
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:01 am

AirwayBill wrote:
Miami wrote:
speedbird52 wrote:
Does anyone have a comparison chart of the A321LR and 757-200s range/payload capability?

Image

Source: AviatorJoe.net


Surprised about the mach number. A321LR should have the same normal cruise speed as the A321neo or the original A321, aka M0.78.

0.82 is already A330/340 type of cruise speed, +0.04 without rewing and other substantial aerodynamic improvements is unlikely.

Average mach number for 757 is correct though, M0.80 it is.


That sounds about right. The 757/767 cruise at about Mach .80. For comparison the 77W cruises at about .83-.84 and the 787 about .85.
 
sagechan
Posts: 277
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:14 pm

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:42 am

rj1385 wrote:
sagechan wrote:
airzona11 wrote:


AA flies to, I believe 21 destinations in Europe now, with 20 from PHL. LHR and MAD are the only true OW partner hubs, though BCN and DUB could be considered.


Was just surprised actually that AA or Finnair do not have a flight to connect to Helsinki.


And if the XLR has the top end of it's rumored range it could be a could fit to launch it (also other Nordic region routes)
717, 733, 734, 738, 744, 752, 763, 772, 77W, 789, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A359, MD88, CRJ, CR7, CR9, DH1, DH2, DH3, S340, ER4, E170, E175, E190/CO, NW, US, AC, NH, AA, UA, DL, WN, WS, SK, VY, LA, QF, AR, AV, MH, KA
 
sagechan
Posts: 277
Joined: Sat Jul 04, 2015 6:14 pm

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:42 am

sagechan wrote:
sagechan wrote:
rj1385 wrote:

Was just surprised actually that AA or Finnair do not have a flight to connect to Helsinki.


And if the XLR has the top end of it's rumored range it could be a good fit to launch it (also other Nordic region routes)
717, 733, 734, 738, 744, 752, 763, 772, 77W, 789, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A359, MD88, CRJ, CR7, CR9, DH1, DH2, DH3, S340, ER4, E170, E175, E190/CO, NW, US, AC, NH, AA, UA, DL, WN, WS, SK, VY, LA, QF, AR, AV, MH, KA
 
smartplane
Posts: 981
Joined: Fri Aug 03, 2018 9:23 pm

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:00 am

compensateme wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
compensateme wrote:

The 757 ended production because, quite frankly, nobody was buying it. Let’s not rewrite history.


What you say is the consequence of an expensive aircraft to produce. This is the real story


That’s not the real story. The 757 was never that popular of an aircraft beyond the domestic market, and by the mid-2000s most of the legacies were deferring orders or selling aircraft as it took delivery of them, while the ones that were buying new aircraft were going with the 739 and 321. Boeing made numerous sales pitches to keep the 757 in production. Nobody wanted it.

Spot on compensateme.

Although Boeing senior management tried to keep the 757 in production, including some innovative (for the time), financial packaging, there were too few takers, and really no passionate champions within Boeing itself, compared to the 737, 767 and 747.

The growth in 757 passenger capacity was viewed as a threat to the 767.

Boeing never fully resourced the 757, with senior management eventually reporting to 737 senior management, who obviously also saw the 757 as a threat.

The 757 nomenclature will probably be revived in a new NB model.
 
by738
Posts: 2919
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2000 7:59 am

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:34 am

smartplane wrote:
The 757 nomenclature will probably be revived in a new NB model.

I dont see that at all. They have never reused the original numerical naming for a completely different new build, and I don't expect them to do so. Can you imagine the uproar if they used eg 747 for something else?
 
chiad
Posts: 1182
Joined: Tue May 16, 2006 4:24 pm

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:12 pm

Bloomberg reports how Airbus and AA again is considering a deal for the A321XLR, which echoes 2011 when (and why) Boeing decided to launch the MAX.
The rest is history.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... for-boeing
 
Austin787
Posts: 368
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 11:39 pm

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:32 pm

AA is in the process of streamlining its fleet by reducing aircraft models. The A321LR makes sense for AA, since they operate A321s. While a Boeing NMA, if launched, would be a new aircraft type.
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 154
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:04 pm

chiad wrote:
Bloomberg reports how Airbus and AA again is considering a deal for the A321XLR, which echoes 2011 when (and why) Boeing decided to launch the MAX.
The rest is history.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... for-boeing


I wonder if Airbus is giving discounted or free upgrades to the A321LR as compensation for missing delivery dates for the A321neo. AA has already had 5 2019 deliveries postponed to 2020.
 
oschkosch
Posts: 159
Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2018 3:41 pm

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:13 pm

Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
chiad wrote:
Bloomberg reports how Airbus and AA again is considering a deal for the A321XLR, which echoes 2011 when (and why) Boeing decided to launch the MAX.
The rest is history.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... for-boeing


I wonder if Airbus is giving discounted or free upgrades to the A321LR as compensation for missing delivery dates for the A321neo. AA has already had 5 2019 deliveries postponed to 2020.


I believe Airbus is giving around 87,52% discounts on the published list price as an incentive.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk
 
Weatherwatcher1
Posts: 154
Joined: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:14 pm

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Sat Jun 08, 2019 4:16 pm

oschkosch wrote:
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:
chiad wrote:
Bloomberg reports how Airbus and AA again is considering a deal for the A321XLR, which echoes 2011 when (and why) Boeing decided to launch the MAX.
The rest is history.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... for-boeing


I wonder if Airbus is giving discounted or free upgrades to the A321LR as compensation for missing delivery dates for the A321neo. AA has already had 5 2019 deliveries postponed to 2020.


I believe Airbus is giving around 87,52% discounts on the published list price as an incentive.

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk


I don’t understand exactly what you are saying. Weight upgrades as a way to compensate for late deliveries could be a mutually beneficial deal for Airbus and American. Weight upgrades are high margin for the manufacturer.
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