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airbazar
Posts: 9624
Joined: Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:12 pm

Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:08 pm

Polot wrote:
airbazar wrote:
juliuswong wrote:
American Airlines really need to place an order for A321XLR to push Boeing to finally launch 797. AA, please do it.

I feel that if AA were to order 50 A321LR/XLR it would be game over for the 797. There's simply not enough demand in that segment for 2 manufacturers and AA is one of the largest customers for that plane.

I see room for both at AA. Like UA said, the XLR solves the range issue...but it is still the size of a 757. 797 would have a place in fleet replacing 788 routes where that plane is being used sub-optimally (since they are replacing 767s) and to replace the A332s (most of which are not on demanding routes) that will be getting old by the time 797s start coming out in numbers.

Yes there's room for both in AA's fleet but that's not what I was alluding to. It's 50 less potential orders for Boeing which just makes the case for launching the 797 that much more difficult in a segment that is not seeing a lot of demand from airlines.
 
Ishrion
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:10 pm

tphuang wrote:
I don't see how this changes anything for JFK. XLR is basically a replacement for 757 that can be used anywhere in AA's network. BA is moving all their operation into T8 with minimal investment from AA to expand it. 5 years is a long time and at the this rate, they won't have that many FFs left to make JFK expansion worth it. If they want to fight for JFK, they need to start this minute rather than after the runway repairs are done or wait until 2024.


Since AA doesn't know what to do with its slots at JFK anymore, the A321XLR would allow them to reach into unserved markets in South/Central America and Europe. The new aircraft is more efficient than the 752s they were using so that'll allow some savings.
 
VS11
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:11 pm

American 767 wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
This replaces their aging fleet of 757-200s, the exact aircraft we expected to be replaced by an A321XLR, and the exact part of the market that Boeing was willing to give up when looking at the NMA. Not a surprise here at all.


Now they just need to get rid of the ancient 77E's, A333's, and A320's.


The 77Es are not that ancient. The cabins have been refurbished. Yes I know the oldest one is now 20 but they still have several more years to hang on. The retirement of those won't begin before 2023, when the first 789 of second batch ordered last year will be delivered.


I recently flew one of those refreshed 777 JFK-MXP and I was truly impressed how good they were. Plane looked like new - even had mood lighting. Great seat, IFE and service -AA now serves ice cream in the middle of the flight . This used to be a signature Virgin Atlantic perk and even BA doesn’t do it. I really like how AA is turning, though the pace could be faster. Can’t wait to see all of the new European destinations - their European non-PHL portfolio should definitely be expanded.
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:16 pm

VS11 wrote:
American 767 wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:

Now they just need to get rid of the ancient 77E's, A333's, and A320's.


The 77Es are not that ancient. The cabins have been refurbished. Yes I know the oldest one is now 20 but they still have several more years to hang on. The retirement of those won't begin before 2023, when the first 789 of second batch ordered last year will be delivered.


I recently flew one of those refreshed 777 JFK-MXP and I was truly impressed how good they were. Plane looked like new - even had mood lighting. Great seat, IFE and service -AA now serves ice cream in the middle of the flight . This used to be a signature Virgin Atlantic perk and even BA doesn’t do it. I really like how AA is turning, though the pace could be faster. Can’t wait to see all of the new European destinations - their European non-PHL portfolio should definitely be expanded.


Oh - I'm just pointing out that most of the aging TATL 752's are on par with many of the 772's and A333's in terms of age.

Anyway, 2023-24 sounds like the perfect timeframe to do the 752 replacement with the XLR's coming online.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
tphuang
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:20 pm

Ishrion wrote:
tphuang wrote:
I don't see how this changes anything for JFK. XLR is basically a replacement for 757 that can be used anywhere in AA's network. BA is moving all their operation into T8 with minimal investment from AA to expand it. 5 years is a long time and at the this rate, they won't have that many FFs left to make JFK expansion worth it. If they want to fight for JFK, they need to start this minute rather than after the runway repairs are done or wait until 2024.


Since AA doesn't know what to do with its slots at JFK anymore, the A321XLR would allow them to reach into unserved markets in South/Central America and Europe. The new aircraft is more efficient than the 752s they were using so that'll allow some savings.


I do agree that they need to do something. As a former AA ff in NYC, their network is getting more and more unworkable. They don't even fly to San Diego or Seattle this summer. These are the things that make them lose market share and point of sale in NYC. Data would show that AA is declining in performance on existing routes out of JFK. At the same time, DL's performance is gaining strength. And this will continue to happen as long as AA remain sidelined. Waiting until 2023/4 to build things back up just isn't going to cut it.

This to me just seems to be a straight up 757 replacement.
 
Sooner787
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:24 pm

How much heavier can the A321's get before they need 4 wheel main gear trucks?
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:50 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Well considering 100% of the AA order is conversions... 30 Firm A321NEO upgraded to A321XLR and 20 options for A321NEO to A321XLR... this isn't a blow to boeing *at all*

Not quite. Per Airbus Pres Release:
The purchase agreement includes the conversion of 30 of American’s existing A321neo slots to A321XLRs and incremental orders for an additional 20 A321XLRs.

40% of AA order is brand new.
 
jad510
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AA a321LCR

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:59 pm

With AA's recent announcement that they are getting the a321XLR, is this a saving grace for their JFK hub? It is no secret they are downsizing and rather focus on PHL. But Isom did mention JFK in his press release about the order and start flights out of there with them.

In addition, what routes do you think we can see AA start/bring back to JFK with the a321XLR?

https://thepointsguy.com/news/american-airlines-orders-50-of-airbuss-new-long-range-a321xlr/
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:02 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Well considering 100% of the AA order is conversions... 30 Firm A321NEO upgraded to A321XLR and 20 options for A321NEO to A321XLR... this isn't a blow to boeing *at all*

Not quite. Per Airbus Pres Release:
The purchase agreement includes the conversion of 30 of American’s existing A321neo slots to A321XLRs and incremental orders for an additional 20 A321XLRs.

40% of AA order is brand new.

Correct iff those "incremental orders for an additional 20 A321XLRs" are new orders as opposed to the exercise of existing A321NEO options which is what trpmb6 seems to be suggesting.
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trpmb6
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:12 pm

Revelation wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Well considering 100% of the AA order is conversions... 30 Firm A321NEO upgraded to A321XLR and 20 options for A321NEO to A321XLR... this isn't a blow to boeing *at all*

Not quite. Per Airbus Pres Release:
The purchase agreement includes the conversion of 30 of American’s existing A321neo slots to A321XLRs and incremental orders for an additional 20 A321XLRs.

40% of AA order is brand new.

Correct iff those "incremental orders for an additional 20 A321XLRs" are new orders as opposed to the exercise of existing A321NEO options which is what trpmb6 seems to be suggesting.


I'm just repeating what was posted in the Airbus orders thread. That the Firm 30 A321NEOs were converted to A321XLR and that their 20 options on A321NEOs were exercised for A321XLRs instead of NEOs. Effectively a conversion. Eitherway, I don't see them exercising a 20 order option on A321Neos now, does anyone here think that?

Copied over from that thread:

B737Driver wrote:
AA order details - 50 XLRs, 30 A321Neos converted to XLR, and 20 Neo options exercised to XLRs with delivery in 2025.

Will be used primarily on Europe and South America routes.



Maybe B737Driver can provide clarity to the source of the Options being converted or not.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:17 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Not quite. Per Airbus Pres Release:

40% of AA order is brand new.

Correct iff those "incremental orders for an additional 20 A321XLRs" are new orders as opposed to the exercise of existing A321NEO options which is what trpmb6 seems to be suggesting.


I'm just repeating what was posted in the Airbus orders thread. That the Firm 30 A321NEOs were converted to A321XLR and that their 20 options on A321NEOs were exercised for A321XLRs instead of NEOs. Effectively a conversion. Eitherway, I don't see them exercising a 20 order option on A321Neos now, does anyone here think that? No. Good.

Chill out, I'm just repeating the official release from Airbus; if Airbus says there is an additional 20 frames, I'm assuming they know better.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:27 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Correct iff those "incremental orders for an additional 20 A321XLRs" are new orders as opposed to the exercise of existing A321NEO options which is what trpmb6 seems to be suggesting.

I'm just repeating what was posted in the Airbus orders thread. That the Firm 30 A321NEOs were converted to A321XLR and that their 20 options on A321NEOs were exercised for A321XLRs instead of NEOs. Effectively a conversion. Eitherway, I don't see them exercising a 20 order option on A321Neos now, does anyone here think that? No. Good.

Chill out, I'm just repeating the official release from Airbus; if Airbus says there is an additional 20 frames, I'm assuming they know better.

We all agree that there are orders for an additional 20 frames, what is being discussed is if this is new business or conversion of existing options, and Airbus's presser ( https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... 1xlrs.html ) doesn't say one way or the other.

PS: It's damn cold in my office already, the A/C is cranking.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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N14AZ
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:35 pm

This was posted in the PIAS orders thread but it might be deleted so I would like to reply here (I hope this is no breach of forum rules (... but if it is, I kindly ask for mercy))
BestWestern wrote:
Is the 321XLR becoming the true traditional hub bypass the 787 was supposed to become?

This is an interesting point of view ... and even kind of ironic when considering how Airbus did or had to argue in the past...

WayexTDI wrote:
if Airbus says there is an additional 20 frames, I'm assuming they know better.

Wow, you don‘t read sentences like this very often on a.net ... ;-)
 
tphuang
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:35 pm

Revelation wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
I'm just repeating what was posted in the Airbus orders thread. That the Firm 30 A321NEOs were converted to A321XLR and that their 20 options on A321NEOs were exercised for A321XLRs instead of NEOs. Effectively a conversion. Eitherway, I don't see them exercising a 20 order option on A321Neos now, does anyone here think that? No. Good.

Chill out, I'm just repeating the official release from Airbus; if Airbus says there is an additional 20 frames, I'm assuming they know better.

We all agree that there are orders for an additional 20 frames, what is being discussed is if this is new business or conversion of existing options, and Airbus's presser ( https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... 1xlrs.html ) doesn't say one way or the other.

PS: It's damn cold in my office already, the A/C is cranking.


How is this even turning in an argument? This is not the airbus order count thread. This is AA purchasing A321XLR thread. Could we actually discuss how AA will use A321XLR?
 
JonNYC
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:39 pm

tphuang wrote:
How is this even turning in an argument? This is not the airbus order count thread. This is AA purchasing A321XLR thread. Could we actually discuss how AA will use A321XLR?

Indeed-- must be related to this:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1423861&start=100#p21416963
 
VS11
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Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2001 6:34 am

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:55 pm

tphuang wrote:

How is this even turning in an argument? This is not the airbus order count thread. This is AA purchasing A321XLR thread. Could we actually discuss how AA will use A321XLR?


Year-round JFK-Amsterdam, Brussels, Berlin, Vienna, Zurich, Munich, Frankfurt, Barcelona (not sure if it is already), maybe Venice and Florence/Pisa. Seasonal - JFK-Budapest, Prague, Lisbon, maybe Bucharest, Naples, if not year-round Venice and Florence/Pisa, Nice, Marseille, Maybe Dubrovnik (seems a success from PHL).

From Boston - some of the above could work year-round but certainly seasonal will be fine especially Germany and Italy and Paris.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:56 pm

tphuang wrote:
Revelation wrote:
WayexTDI wrote:
Chill out, I'm just repeating the official release from Airbus; if Airbus says there is an additional 20 frames, I'm assuming they know better.

We all agree that there are orders for an additional 20 frames, what is being discussed is if this is new business or conversion of existing options, and Airbus's presser ( https://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-r ... 1xlrs.html ) doesn't say one way or the other.

PS: It's damn cold in my office already, the A/C is cranking.


How is this even turning in an argument? This is not the airbus order count thread. This is AA purchasing A321XLR thread. Could we actually discuss how AA will use A321XLR?


Go back to post #239 where I did exactly that. This replaces their 757-200s that were aging, or will be ready to replaced at precisely the time these XLRs are expected to be delivered. This is all perfect for AA. But some were, back at that original post #239, calling this a "blow to boeing" when it really wasn't at all, that this is simply a conversion order that works out better for AA and puts a few more pennies in Airbus' pocket. Win-Win.

The follow on from that is semantics about whether or not AA has an additional 20 NEO options laying around out there - to which I contend they do not.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:58 pm

NW is restarting JFK NRT when the 787s arrive. Yawn
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:05 pm

JonNYC wrote:
tphuang wrote:
How is this even turning in an argument? This is not the airbus order count thread. This is AA purchasing A321XLR thread. Could we actually discuss how AA will use A321XLR?

Indeed-- must be related to this:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1423861&start=100#p21416963

I stand by what I wrote, which is:

Revelation wrote:
Thing is, nothing in that article says a deal is "imminent", it just says that AA is "taking a hard look" at A321XLR.

It says:

While no announcement is planned for this month’s Paris Air Show, aircraft deals sometimes come together quickly, one of the people said.

Which is pretty much the definition of fence sitting, IMO.

It also says the XLRs may come from redirecting some of AA's existing A320 family orders, and the only way they could arrive before 2023 or 2024 is if existing orders are converted.

To me, the juciest part of the article is the claim of adding 900 nm of range on top of A321LR (not A321neo).

If that's true, it's much better than the 500 nm of earlier rumors.

It also says a debate simmers within Airbus as to when to make the announcement, some within the company want to do it at Paris, others wait till the NMA finally gets announced so they have a response in hand.

Of course I'd love to have it at Paris.

If JL was still in charge, he'd drop the bomb now without regard to what Boeing will or won't do.

I congratulated you by name in #255 above regarding this order, but again, I stand by what I wrote, which is that the Bloomberg article did not confirm what you wrote earlier.

I disagree with the idea that discussing new orders vs conversion of existing options is off topic in a thread titled "AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's".
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
EarlyLateORD
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:36 pm

I hope the A321XLR is utilized for the thin MIA-South America routes that recently got 737MAX'ed...it sounds like a much better plane for these routes.

Adam
 
JonNYC
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:56 pm

EarlyLateORD wrote:
I hope the A321XLR is utilized for the thin MIA-South America routes that recently got 737MAX'ed...it sounds like a much better plane for these routes.

Adam

Thusfar, there's been no mention on anyone's part of MIA being one of the bases. My intel was JFK/PHL bases, and then today the -possibility- of CLT and DFW was brought up today.

Nor have I heard any solid mention of South America in connection with same thus far.
 
sagechan
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:11 pm

JonNYC wrote:
EarlyLateORD wrote:
I hope the A321XLR is utilized for the thin MIA-South America routes that recently got 737MAX'ed...it sounds like a much better plane for these routes.

Adam

Thusfar, there's been no mention on anyone's part of MIA being one of the bases. My intel was JFK/PHL bases, and then today the -possibility- of CLT and DFW was brought up today.

Nor have I heard any solid mention of South America in connection with same thus far.


Given the number of AA A320 crew bases I think there is a lot of opportunity for the XLR to flow through different markets without officially being based there. Also would expect a decent amount of Summer/Winter swapping.
717, 733, 734, 738, 744, 752, 763, 772, 77W, 789, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A359, MD88, CRJ, CR7, CR9, DH1, DH2, DH3, S340, ER4, E170, E175, E190/CO, NW, US, AC, NH, AA, UA, DL, WN, WS, SK, VY, LA, QF, AR, AV, MH, KA
 
Philly65
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:20 pm

h1fl1er wrote:
sassiciai wrote:
trpmb6 wrote:
This replaces their aging fleet of 757-200s, the exact aircraft we expected to be replaced by an A321XLR, and the exact part of the market that Boeing was willing to give up when looking at the NMA. Not a surprise here at all.

Well, I must confess to be surprised at your lack of surprise!

If this AA order was not a central part of Boeing's order targets for the NMA/797, then I would be even more surprised

Please share with us which fleets are the target for Boeing with the MOM/NMA/797 in that case, if the ME3 all go A321XLR


the presumed NMA would fly more further and at substantially better economics than the XLR. the xlr isn't magic, it's an upfueled NEO. but as of now the only plane capable of this level of range

the XLR will be more expensive to operate on seat mile bases than the existing LR and reg NEO as well as the Max. carrying more fuel carries a weight penalty

in addition, all this talk of lie flat I think makes the economics pretty dicey for the mainline carriers. Copa is probably the airline most like what's being tried here. they've been doing long missions into brazil from PTY for a while now on 738s. the crew rest set asides and whatnot else are going to hurt these attempts to go even further unless they change the rules


Which NMA are you talking about? There is both a high-density 4k mile and 5k mile fragmenter. This order along with the others cuts into the NMA forecast making the already "delayed" business case harder to close.
 
mikejepp
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:24 pm

JonNYC wrote:
EarlyLateORD wrote:
I hope the A321XLR is utilized for the thin MIA-South America routes that recently got 737MAX'ed...it sounds like a much better plane for these routes.

Adam

Thusfar, there's been no mention on anyone's part of MIA being one of the bases. My intel was JFK/PHL bases, and then today the -possibility- of CLT and DFW was brought up today.

Nor have I heard any solid mention of South America in connection with same thus far.


What could potential destinations from CLT and DFW be? Is something like CLT-GRU possible? DFW-Hawaii?
 
Philly65
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Re: AA a321LCR

Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:25 pm

jad510 wrote:
With AA's recent announcement that they are getting the a321XLR, is this a saving grace for their JFK hub? It is no secret they are downsizing and rather focus on PHL. But Isom did mention JFK in his press release about the order and start flights out of there with them.

In addition, what routes do you think we can see AA start/bring back to JFK with the a321XLR?

https://thepointsguy.com/news/american-airlines-orders-50-of-airbuss-new-long-range-a321xlr/


Or could it be a lot of existing JFK service gets replaced by the 321XLR? Time will tell but think it is existing service replacement.
 
Philly65
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:27 pm

VS11 wrote:
tphuang wrote:

How is this even turning in an argument? This is not the airbus order count thread. This is AA purchasing A321XLR thread. Could we actually discuss how AA will use A321XLR?


Year-round JFK-Amsterdam, Brussels, Berlin, Vienna, Zurich, Munich, Frankfurt, Barcelona (not sure if it is already), maybe Venice and Florence/Pisa. Seasonal - JFK-Budapest, Prague, Lisbon, maybe Bucharest, Naples, if not year-round Venice and Florence/Pisa, Nice, Marseille, Maybe Dubrovnik (seems a success from PHL).

From Boston - some of the above could work year-round but certainly seasonal will be fine especially Germany and Italy and Paris.


You're smoking some good $hit. BOS no way and JFK expansion possible but not entirely likely.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:34 pm

Philly65 wrote:
h1fl1er wrote:
sassiciai wrote:
Well, I must confess to be surprised at your lack of surprise!

If this AA order was not a central part of Boeing's order targets for the NMA/797, then I would be even more surprised

Please share with us which fleets are the target for Boeing with the MOM/NMA/797 in that case, if the ME3 all go A321XLR


the presumed NMA would fly more further and at substantially better economics than the XLR. the xlr isn't magic, it's an upfueled NEO. but as of now the only plane capable of this level of range

the XLR will be more expensive to operate on seat mile bases than the existing LR and reg NEO as well as the Max. carrying more fuel carries a weight penalty

in addition, all this talk of lie flat I think makes the economics pretty dicey for the mainline carriers. Copa is probably the airline most like what's being tried here. they've been doing long missions into brazil from PTY for a while now on 738s. the crew rest set asides and whatnot else are going to hurt these attempts to go even further unless they change the rules


Which NMA are you talking about? There is both a high-density 4k mile and 5k mile fragmenter. This order along with the others cuts into the NMA forecast making the already "delayed" business case harder to close.


Image
 
BestWestern
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:47 pm

I really do see the 321XLR as a hub bypass.

Berlin - New York
Urumqi - Madrid
Dublin - Lagos
Beirut - Bangkok
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
VS11
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:51 pm

Philly65 wrote:
VS11 wrote:
tphuang wrote:

How is this even turning in an argument? This is not the airbus order count thread. This is AA purchasing A321XLR thread. Could we actually discuss how AA will use A321XLR?


Year-round JFK-Amsterdam, Brussels, Berlin, Vienna, Zurich, Munich, Frankfurt, Barcelona (not sure if it is already), maybe Venice and Florence/Pisa. Seasonal - JFK-Budapest, Prague, Lisbon, maybe Bucharest, Naples, if not year-round Venice and Florence/Pisa, Nice, Marseille, Maybe Dubrovnik (seems a success from PHL).

From Boston - some of the above could work year-round but certainly seasonal will be fine especially Germany and Italy and Paris.


You're smoking some good $hit. BOS no way and JFK expansion possible but not entirely likely.


Sure, Boston is a bigger question mark because it is a smaller city with multiple connections to PHL but NYC is a 20-million-people metro area. We are talking about a 321 here, not a 747.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:51 pm

A.net is funny. Many here proclamimg the end of the 797 because of upgrades to “warmed over” 1988 A320. Yet on other threads many bash Boeing for making a “warmer over” 1968 737 MAX instead of a new “clean sheet”’737 replacement in response to the NEO back in 2011.

So which is it??? More evidence a.net is overrun with teenage boys
 
sagechan
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:03 pm

BestWestern wrote:
I really do see the 321XLR as a hub bypass.

Berlin - New York
Urumqi - Madrid
Dublin - Lagos
Beirut - Bangkok


For a LLC/ULLC that adds it to a 320fleet it very well could be. For Legacies it's a hub to medium-long & thin plane
717, 733, 734, 738, 744, 752, 763, 772, 77W, 789, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A359, MD88, CRJ, CR7, CR9, DH1, DH2, DH3, S340, ER4, E170, E175, E190/CO, NW, US, AC, NH, AA, UA, DL, WN, WS, SK, VY, LA, QF, AR, AV, MH, KA
 
chonetsao
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:07 pm

I think A321XLR would be split between JFK and MIA like B757/767 used to be. Some of the A321XLR may move to DFW and possible PHL as well. For instance, in winter A321XLR will fly in PHL to Europe and this is to be ungauged to B788 in summer. While the A321XLR will move to DFW in summer for Latin American runs and then B788 moves in for winter.
 
1989worstyear
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:09 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
A.net is funny. Many here proclamimg the end of the 797 because of upgrades to “warmed over” 1988 A320. Yet on other threads many bash Boeing for making a “warmer over” 1968 737 MAX instead of a new “clean sheet”’737 replacement in response to the NEO back in 2011.

So which is it??? More evidence a.net is overrun with teenage boys


Big difference - 1988 technology is still state-of-the-art in 2019 for civilian jetliners.
Stuck at age 15 thanks to the certification date of the A320-200 and my parents' decision to postpone having a kid by 3 years. At least there's Dignitas...
 
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gatibosgru
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:09 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
A.net is funny. Many here proclamimg the end of the 797 because of upgrades to “warmed over” 1988 A320. Yet on other threads many bash Boeing for making a “warmer over” 1968 737 MAX instead of a new “clean sheet”’737 replacement in response to the NEO back in 2011.

So which is it??? More evidence a.net is overrun with teenage boys


What does the saying that the MAX was one iteration too much have to do with thinking the XLR could make the business case for the NMA trickier? As far as I know this is the first real upgrade to the A321 and it carves out a small niche that is currently not served. Apples and Oranges in my opinion. And who cares what others think, it's their prerogative and in no way impacts real life or the real potential of the NMA.
Last edited by gatibosgru on Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
@DadCelo
 
VS11
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:11 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
A.net is funny. Many here proclamimg the end of the 797 because of upgrades to “warmed over” 1988 A320. Yet on other threads many bash Boeing for making a “warmer over” 1968 737 MAX instead of a new “clean sheet”’737 replacement in response to the NEO back in 2011.

So which is it??? More evidence a.net is overrun with teenage boys


Nothing wrong with warmed over designs. It just seems that the 737 design has reached its limit while 320 design still manages to deliver new capabilities.
 
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gatibosgru
Posts: 1541
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:12 pm

chonetsao wrote:
I think A321XLR would be split between JFK and MIA like B757/767 used to be. Some of the A321XLR may move to DFW and possible PHL as well. For instance, in winter A321XLR will fly in PHL to Europe and this is to be ungauged to B788 in summer. While the A321XLR will move to DFW in summer for Latin American runs and then B788 moves in for winter.


I guess as long as they can keep filling the 763s with pax to South America then MIA will have no need for the XLR and many of the secondary locations in South America are within reach of the MAX 8 and may not need J suits. PHL and JFK def makes more sense to Europe.
@DadCelo
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 2406
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:33 pm

1989worstyear wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
A.net is funny. Many here proclamimg the end of the 797 because of upgrades to “warmed over” 1988 A320. Yet on other threads many bash Boeing for making a “warmer over” 1968 737 MAX instead of a new “clean sheet”’737 replacement in response to the NEO back in 2011.

So which is it??? More evidence a.net is overrun with teenage boys


Big difference - 1988 technology is still state-of-the-art in 2019 for civilian jetliners.

Everyone is missing the point. If the 321XLR is enough to kill the 797, then Boeing was right to do the MAX in response to the NEO rather than a cleansheet. I realize the 797/321XLR market is probably smaller. But the logic is the same unless you just hate Boeing
 
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Revelation
Posts: 21239
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:34 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
A.net is funny. Many here proclamimg the end of the 797 because of upgrades to “warmed over” 1988 A320. Yet on other threads many bash Boeing for making a “warmer over” 1968 737 MAX instead of a new “clean sheet”’737 replacement in response to the NEO back in 2011.

So which is it???

We don't have to be in an either/or situation.

The market supports a "warmed over" A330neo with a lot of overlap with "clean sheet" 787 and A350 that have more seats, more range and even better economy.

The market can support "warmed over" A321neo/A321lr/A321xlr with a lot of overlap with "clean sheet" NMA that will have more seats, more range and even better economy.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
The heart has its beaches, its homeland and thoughts of its own
Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
The heart has its seasons, its evenings and songs of its own
 
RickNRoll
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:45 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
A.net is funny. Many here proclamimg the end of the 797 because of upgrades to “warmed over” 1988 A320. Yet on other threads many bash Boeing for making a “warmer over” 1968 737 MAX instead of a new “clean sheet”’737 replacement in response to the NEO back in 2011.

So which is it??? More evidence a.net is overrun with teenage boys


Big difference - 1988 technology is still state-of-the-art in 2019 for civilian jetliners.

Everyone is missing the point. If the 321XLR is enough to kill the 797, then Boeing was right to do the MAX in response to the NEO rather than a cleansheet. I realize the 797/321XLR market is probably smaller. But the logic is the same unless you just hate Boeing
The 737 is hampered by the imbeded 1950s technology. If it was FBW MCAS would never have happened, for example.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:51 pm

trpmb6 wrote:
This replaces their aging fleet of 757-200s, the exact aircraft we expected to be replaced by an A321XLR, and the exact part of the market that Boeing was willing to give up when looking at the NMA. Not a surprise here at all.


Well, it's very nearly a 50% increase in frames over their remaining 757 fleet of 34, so obviously more than "just replacing 757s."

trpmb6 wrote:
I'm just repeating what was posted in the Airbus orders thread. That the Firm 30 A321NEOs were converted to A321XLR and that their 20 options on A321NEOs were exercised for A321XLRs instead of NEOs. Effectively a conversion.


You can argue semantics all you want, it's clear that Airbus will have an additional 20 A321s in their backlog that weren't there previously. Options are not counted in the backlog, and unexercised options aren't worth anything to Airbus or Boeing. Options often lapse without ever being firmed.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
IAmGaroott
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:53 pm

I just listened to AAs “Tell Me Why” podcast regarding the XLR order. They had president Robert Isom speak about that aircraft and the fleet moving forward.

What caught my attention was when he spoke about “where we’re going” as far as wide bodies, he mentioned all ac, including the 772s but said nothing about the A333 nor A332.
 
Philly65
Posts: 75
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:54 pm

VS11 wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
A.net is funny. Many here proclamimg the end of the 797 because of upgrades to “warmed over” 1988 A320. Yet on other threads many bash Boeing for making a “warmer over” 1968 737 MAX instead of a new “clean sheet”’737 replacement in response to the NEO back in 2011.

So which is it??? More evidence a.net is overrun with teenage boys


Nothing wrong with warmed over designs. It just seems that the 737 design has reached its limit while 320 design still manages to deliver new capabilities.


Exactly!
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 2406
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:42 pm

RickNRoll wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
1989worstyear wrote:

Big difference - 1988 technology is still state-of-the-art in 2019 for civilian jetliners.

Everyone is missing the point. If the 321XLR is enough to kill the 797, then Boeing was right to do the MAX in response to the NEO rather than a cleansheet. I realize the 797/321XLR market is probably smaller. But the logic is the same unless you just hate Boeing
The 737 is hampered by the imbeded 1950s technology. If it was FBW MCAS would never have happened, for example.

Have you ever been on a 737?
 
Bobloblaw
Posts: 2406
Joined: Fri Jan 13, 2012 1:15 pm

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:44 pm

Revelation wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
A.net is funny. Many here proclamimg the end of the 797 because of upgrades to “warmed over” 1988 A320. Yet on other threads many bash Boeing for making a “warmer over” 1968 737 MAX instead of a new “clean sheet”’737 replacement in response to the NEO back in 2011.

So which is it???

We don't have to be in an either/or situation.

The market supports a "warmed over" A330neo with a lot of overlap with "clean sheet" 787 and A350 that have more seats, more range and even better economy.

The market can support "warmed over" A321neo/A321lr/A321xlr with a lot of overlap with "clean sheet" NMA that will have more seats, more range and even better economy.

I agree with you. The 321XLR doesn’t destroy the market for the 797. However many here disagree with us. The same probably who complained about Boeing building max instead of a new jet
 
grbauc
Posts: 1426
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 11:47 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
A.net is funny. Many here proclamimg the end of the 797 because of upgrades to “warmed over” 1988 A320. Yet on other threads many bash Boeing for making a “warmer over” 1968 737 MAX instead of a new “clean sheet”’737 replacement in response to the NEO back in 2011.

So which is it??? More evidence a.net is overrun with teenage boys



Yea funny for sure... To much My team stuff we need more pro aviation fans and there are a fair amount of them. Just the tail sometimes wagging the dog.

I still think there is plenty of room for a 797 and Im sick of waiting and hearing about it. Boeing for the love of my sanity launch the dam plane its a perfect ladder for the NSA
 
Cdydatzigs
Posts: 30
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Re: RUMOR: American to order A321LR

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:07 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
So will it get a TWA retrojet livery too I wonder!


Oh joy.. another GREY and red TWA livery :|
 
sagechan
Posts: 303
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:14 am

Given AA's route structure what could be some interesting, possible, but out of left field routes for the XLR?

I'd go with LAX-PPT. Likely to see the plane do some Transcons so could easily route it down and back.
717, 733, 734, 738, 744, 752, 763, 772, 77W, 789, A319, A320, A321, A332, A333, A359, MD88, CRJ, CR7, CR9, DH1, DH2, DH3, S340, ER4, E170, E175, E190/CO, NW, US, AC, NH, AA, UA, DL, WN, WS, SK, VY, LA, QF, AR, AV, MH, KA
 
grbauc
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Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:06 am

sagechan wrote:
Given AA's route structure what could be some interesting, possible, but out of left field routes for the XLR?

I'd go with LAX-PPT. Likely to see the plane do some Transcons so could easily route it down and back.



Thats a interesting route... Id Like to see that and That kind of thinking.
 
Aceskywalker
Posts: 61
Joined: Sat Nov 17, 2018 4:55 am

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:27 am

Not out there routes, but I can see AA doing some work in Hawaii with the XLR in servicing KOA & LIH from DFW. Maybe HNL-DCA?

You'll see more destinations to secondary EU cities.
 
Boof02671
Posts: 1626
Joined: Sun Jul 10, 2016 12:15 am

Re: Updated: AA agrees to order 50 Airbus A321XLR's

Thu Jun 20, 2019 1:30 am

IAmGaroott wrote:
I just listened to AAs “Tell Me Why” podcast regarding the XLR order. They had president Robert Isom speak about that aircraft and the fleet moving forward.

What caught my attention was when he spoke about “where we’re going” as far as wide bodies, he mentioned all ac, including the 772s but said nothing about the A333 nor A332.

They already announced the 332s are staying and the 333s are being kept through at least till the end of 2021.

https://thepointsguy.com/news/american- ... uary-2019/
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