jetbluefan1
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Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Mon Jun 03, 2019 1:53 pm

This news coming on the heels of the A321LR order.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-airlin ... 15150.html

Key quotes from Robin Hayes, made today:

""London is the biggest opportunity because it has the highest fares, but there would be other opportunities if we had an airplane that had more range. The XLR gives us more range," Hayes said on the sidelines of a global airlines meeting in Seoul."

""We're still working through how many aircraft it would be (but) any XLRs would be linked to the planes we have on order today," he told Reuters in an interview, adding any purchases would be converted from existing orders rather than generating completely new ones. No decision has yet been taken."

Also some hints at additional code-share agreements with European airlines.
Last edited by SQ22 on Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Title updated after recent news
 
tphuang
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Re: JetBlue In Talks for A321XLR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 2:23 pm

Thanks for posting this. It makes sense for them to go with xlr when that's available, since that would open up a lot of opportunities in Europe and South America. There are still some underserved secondary market they can try out from Boston and new York.

Would be interesting to see who the code share partners are.
 
Tailwinds
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Re: JetBlue In Talks for A321XLR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 4:43 pm

Anyone know what caveats are included in the manufacturer's range numbers? I'm hearing LR + 700nm for the XLR, which would be 4700nm. Is that a range with a typical payload and reserve/alternate fuel? Presuming it's still air. It'd get them to IST from JFK and to EZE out of FLL.
 
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Re: JetBlue In Talks for A321XLR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:39 pm

They’ll look good in Alaska colors when they merge. :spin:
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jetbluefan1
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Re: JetBlue In Talks for A321XLR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:09 pm

tphuang wrote:
Thanks for posting this. It makes sense for them to go with xlr when that's available, since that would open up a lot of opportunities in Europe and South America. There are still some underserved secondary market they can try out from Boston and new York.

Would be interesting to see who the code share partners are.


I'm still a bit confused about how B6 views the LR range versus XLR. Hayes specifically cites BRU and AMS in the article as being markets that cannot be reached with LR, but if that's the case, then is the LR only good for BOS/JFK-London (and Ireland)? AMS/BRU are just a couple hundred miles further.

In any case, there are certainly plenty of secondary (and even primary) markets outside of the LR's range that B6 can make a dent in. TXL, GVA, HAM, ATH, NCE etc could all be good contenders from BOS.

I'd also be interested to see what B6 could do with these birds from FLL. Getting into some deep south or secondary South American markets could give them a further leg up against NK/WN.
 
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DLHAM
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Re: JetBlue In Talks for A321XLR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:45 pm

jetbluefan1 wrote:
I'm still a bit confused about how B6 views the LR range versus XLR. Hayes specifically cites BRU and AMS in the article as being markets that cannot be reached with LR, but if that's the case, then is the LR only good for BOS/JFK-London (and Ireland)? AMS/BRU are just a couple hundred miles further.


I think they want the aircraft to be able to operate reliably throughout the whole year with full payload. On HAM-JFK for example I think an A321LR would struggle in winter with strong jetstream. The XLR promises more reliability on routes this lenght.
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MIflyer12
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Re: JetBlue In Talks for A321XLR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 10:57 pm

jetbluefan1 wrote:
AMS/BRU are just a couple hundred miles further.


Sometimes just a couple hundred more miles is what makes it too far. Ask UA about 757s on TXL-EWR in the winter.

I don't think the range difference between a B6 321XLR and a WN Max8 is going to make the difference in FLL to South America. There aren't that many high-volume destinations greater than 3,000 miles but less than ~4,000 miles. FLL-BSB? AA and Gol might care about yields but it's not a big market.
 
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Re: JetBlue In Talks for A321XLR

Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:27 pm

jetbluefan1 wrote:

Also some hints at additional code-share agreements with European airlines.


Expanded partnership with MT if LGW? Would they feed the sun destinations (Greece, Spain etc)?

One good bedfellow for B6 may be SK (if they get LHR slots) since they are cut out of the Star JV.
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jetbluefan1
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Re: JetBlue In Talks for A321XLR

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:45 pm

 
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Revelation
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Re: JetBlue In Talks for A321XLR

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:52 pm

jetbluefan1 wrote:

Exciting!

JetBlue Converts 13 Aircraft in Existing Order Book to the Xtra Long Range Version of Airbus’ Newest, Fuel-Efficient Aircraft to Expand Transatlantic Options

JetBlue Also Exercises Its Option to Take 10 Additional A220-300 Aircraft – Featuring Powerful Combination of Economics and Range – Increasing Total on Order to 70

The only downer is that delivery won't start till 2023...
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jetbluefan1
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Re: JetBlue In Talks for A321XLR

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:56 pm

Revelation wrote:
jetbluefan1 wrote:

Exciting!

JetBlue Converts 13 Aircraft in Existing Order Book to the Xtra Long Range Version of Airbus’ Newest, Fuel-Efficient Aircraft to Expand Transatlantic Options

JetBlue Also Exercises Its Option to Take 10 Additional A220-300 Aircraft – Featuring Powerful Combination of Economics and Range – Increasing Total on Order to 70

The only downer is that delivery won't start till 2023...


Very! This opens up quite a few additional opportunities further into Europe.

Some more details:

-Converting 13 A321neo orders to A321XLR. This is in addition to the 13 A321LR's that were announced in April in conjunction with the London announcement.
-Deliveries will begin in 2023
-JetBlue will take delivery of 10 additional A220-300's as well (for a total of 70)
 
9252fly
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Re: JetBlue In Talks for A321XLR

Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:57 pm

jetbluefan1 wrote:


Interesting to see a top-up order for 10 A220's included in the press release.
 
jetbluefan1
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Re: JetBlue In Talks for A321XLR

Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:29 pm

9252fly wrote:
jetbluefan1 wrote:


Interesting to see a top-up order for 10 A220's included in the press release.


Yeah, I think it's more or less keeping in stride with supporting Airbus during the show in Paris.

Frankly I'm a little surprised they didn't announce an exercise of options for some A220-100's instead of the -300's.
 
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par13del
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Re: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR

Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:35 pm

jetbluefan1 wrote:
This news coming on the heels of the A321LR order.

https://finance.yahoo.com/news/u-airlin ... 15150.html

Key quotes from Robin Hayes, made today:

""London is the biggest opportunity because it has the highest fares, but there would be other opportunities if we had an airplane that had more range. The XLR gives us more range," Hayes said on the sidelines of a global airlines meeting in Seoul."

So they are not going to lower prices when they enter the market?

Ok, cool.
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: JetBlue In Talks for A321XLR

Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:43 pm

Revelation wrote:
jetbluefan1 wrote:

Exciting!

JetBlue Converts 13 Aircraft in Existing Order Book to the Xtra Long Range Version of Airbus’ Newest, Fuel-Efficient Aircraft to Expand Transatlantic Options

JetBlue Also Exercises Its Option to Take 10 Additional A220-300 Aircraft – Featuring Powerful Combination of Economics and Range – Increasing Total on Order to 70

The only downer is that delivery won't start till 2023...


Disappointing to wait until 2023. It might be too little, too late.
 
ITSTours
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Re: JetBlue In Talks for A321XLR

Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:45 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
Revelation wrote:
jetbluefan1 wrote:

Exciting!

JetBlue Converts 13 Aircraft in Existing Order Book to the Xtra Long Range Version of Airbus’ Newest, Fuel-Efficient Aircraft to Expand Transatlantic Options

JetBlue Also Exercises Its Option to Take 10 Additional A220-300 Aircraft – Featuring Powerful Combination of Economics and Range – Increasing Total on Order to 70

The only downer is that delivery won't start till 2023...


Disappointing to wait until 2023. It might be too little, too late.


I want it earlier but it is not too late. Their LRs come earlier anyway.
NMA is still said to be 2025 EIS (if there is no delay) so XLR is 2 years early.
 
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Re: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR

Thu Jun 20, 2019 4:56 pm

par13del wrote:
So they are not going to lower prices when they enter the market?

Ok, cool.

I'm sure they don't want to see NYC-LON or BOS-LON prices to drop, but it's pretty obvious that the incumbent carriers are going to do just that to try to make life difficult for B6.
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Elementalism
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Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:01 pm

Hope those A220s service MSP.
 
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Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:07 pm

Exciting! LRs then XLRs. I would love a Mint LGB-BOS-LHR or LGW.

Yes, I dream of Mint at LGB. Yields say otherwise... :cry2:

The A220 top off is very interesting. I didn't expect that prior to EIS.

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N757ST
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Re: JetBlue In Talks for A321XLR

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:13 pm

ITSTours wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
Revelation wrote:
Exciting!


The only downer is that delivery won't start till 2023...


Disappointing to wait until 2023. It might be too little, too late.


I want it earlier but it is not too late. Their LRs come earlier anyway.
NMA is still said to be 2025 EIS (if there is no delay) so XLR is 2 years early.


The aircraft isn’t available until 2023. Is this another JetBlue’s impending death post even though they and Wall Street are predicting annual profits in the 600-900 million range for the next few years? With very little debt to boot? Death imminent indeed.
 
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Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:14 pm

That post was meant for Dieuwer.
 
tphuang
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Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:27 pm

The 10 more A223 just shows that A220s were never meant to just be E90 replacement. I would guess 40 to 50 A223s can replace those E90 flying just based on the higher utilization + greater capacity. Any additional A223 will be used to replace A320s. They got 50 options left. I'm sure they got killer deal on those. If I was to guess, they are just waiting for A220-500 to be ready before ordering more.

I do wonder if they will keep E90s around by the end of this for the shuttle routes.

routes like BOS-ATL/MSP/DFW/HOU/CLT are going to be so much more economical to operate with A220 vs old A320/E90s.

So now, they have 13 A321LR + 13 A321XLR. I'm sure they'd have gone with all XLR if that was available sooner. But they can't wait anymore and LON doesn't need XLR's range.

Dieuwer wrote:

Disappointing to wait until 2023. It might be too little, too late.

Keep in mind they have 13 LRs to take from late 2020 or early 2021. Here is their current delivery schedule for A321NEOs
2019 -> 13
2020 -> 14
2021 -> 17
2022 -> 15
2023 -> 14
2024 -> 12
That's already a lot of A321LRs + NEO to take and incorporate for 2021/2022.
13 out of 26 A321s from 2023/2024 converted to A321XLR is pretty reasonable time line.

Let's assume 1 plane per R/T flight. Then they can use 7 of the LRs for BOS/JFK-LON, 2 for BOS/JFK-CDG, 2 for BOS/JFK-AMS and 2 for BOS/JFK-DUB?

and now for 13 additional flight to rest of europe on XLR. I wonder where they are thinking. JFK-BCN/FRA/MAD would seem like good adds. If they want to build up BOS TATL network. They could add BCN/FRA/MAD/TXL/NCE/MXP/FCO/MUC/ZRH/MAN.
 
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Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:32 pm

This just opened up all of Europe for B6.
 
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Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:37 pm

tphuang wrote:

Let's assume 1 plane per R/T flight. Then they can use 7 of the LRs for BOS/JFK-LON, 2 for BOS/JFK-CDG, 2 for BOS/JFK-AMS and 2 for BOS/JFK-DUB?



It'll likely be 12 aircraft in rotation with 1 free for maintenance/spares, especially as the LR can be a spare for the A321/321neo/320 as well.
 
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Dieuwer
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Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:39 pm

A lot of things can happen between now and 2024. From a "simple" B6 bankruptcy to nuclear WW-3.
 
Olddog
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Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Thu Jun 20, 2019 5:41 pm

You forgot a zombie invasion....
When UK was in it wanted a lot of opt-outs, now it is out it wants opt-ins
 
RodFarva
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Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:23 pm

tphuang wrote:
Keep in mind they have 13 LRs to take from late 2020 or early 2021. Here is their current delivery schedule for A321NEOs
2019 -> 13
2020 -> 14
2021 -> 17
2022 -> 15
2023 -> 14
2024 -> 12
That's already a lot of A321LRs + NEO to take and incorporate for 2021/2022.
13 out of 26 A321s from 2023/2024 converted to A321XLR is pretty reasonable time line.


Pretty close. It was modified earlier this year.
2019: 6
2020: 22
2021: 16
Rest unchanged
 
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Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:28 pm

A few interesting markets B6 should consider:

Cologne/Bonn (CGN)
Prague (PRG)
Düsseldorf (DUS)
Geneva (GVA)
Berlin (TXL)

All of these are a good mix of business and tourist traffic with very limited non-seasonal connectivity to North America.

Exciting times ahead!
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Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Thu Jun 20, 2019 6:40 pm

tphuang wrote:
The 10 more A223 just shows that A220s were never meant to just be E90 replacement. I would guess 40 to 50 A223s can replace those E90 flying just based on the higher utilization + greater capacity. Any additional A223 will be used to replace A320s. They got 50 options left. I'm sure they got killer deal on those. If I was to guess, they are just waiting for A220-500 to be ready before ordering more.
.

First I agree fewer A223 are required to replace 60 E190. I expect the better economics to be used for expansion.

For example, JetBlue made their name on TCON flights. I see more destinations on the West coast from BOS, JFK, FLL. I really see the A220 opening up LAX, SFO, perhaps right sizing LGB. I could dream of more LGB TCONS, but that is unlikely. SAN, SNA, perhaps a return to ONT? I personally would like to see Florida to California flights.

I see a market at JetBlue for 200+ A220-300 (perhaps 30 should be -100?). How many depends on Moxie's actual model, Delta's future expansion, as well as Spirit (do they buy the A220?).

Perhaps JetBlue makes more of a hub at LAS?

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tphuang
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Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Thu Jun 20, 2019 8:20 pm

lowfareair wrote:
tphuang wrote:

Let's assume 1 plane per R/T flight. Then they can use 7 of the LRs for BOS/JFK-LON, 2 for BOS/JFK-CDG, 2 for BOS/JFK-AMS and 2 for BOS/JFK-DUB?



It'll likely be 12 aircraft in rotation with 1 free for maintenance/spares, especially as the LR can be a spare for the A321/321neo/320 as well.


They managed to get 45 R/T mint flights a day + having spares with 35 A321s. With good scheduling 26 aircraft, they should have not issue having 1 or 2 available for maintenance/spares.
 
grbauc
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Re: JetBlue In Talks for A321XLR

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:04 pm

jetbluefan1 wrote:
Revelation wrote:
jetbluefan1 wrote:

Exciting!

JetBlue Converts 13 Aircraft in Existing Order Book to the Xtra Long Range Version of Airbus’ Newest, Fuel-Efficient Aircraft to Expand Transatlantic Options

JetBlue Also Exercises Its Option to Take 10 Additional A220-300 Aircraft – Featuring Powerful Combination of Economics and Range – Increasing Total on Order to 70

The only downer is that delivery won't start till 2023...


Very! This opens up quite a few additional opportunities further into Europe.

Some more details:


I've already Picked up some AA/BA $2300+ J seat LAX To LHR/CDG/AMS this year and It looks like for the foreseeable future there will be some great J fares. I use to always have to go to a connection city to get mid 3K fares example (CAI) but this year im seeing good fares to the Hub cities.

-Converting 13 A321neo orders to A321XLR. This is in addition to the 13 A321LR's that were announced in April in conjunction with the London announcement.
-Deliveries will begin in 2023
-JetBlue will take delivery of 10 additional A220-300's as well (for a total of 70)
 
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Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Thu Jun 20, 2019 9:07 pm

lightsaber wrote:
tphuang wrote:
The 10 more A223 just shows that A220s were never meant to just be E90 replacement. I would guess 40 to 50 A223s can replace those E90 flying just based on the higher utilization + greater capacity. Any additional A223 will be used to replace A320s. They got 50 options left. I'm sure they got killer deal on those. If I was to guess, they are just waiting for A220-500 to be ready before ordering more.
.

First I agree fewer A223 are required to replace 60 E190. I expect the better economics to be used for expansion.

For example, JetBlue made their name on TCON flights. I see more destinations on the West coast from BOS, JFK, FLL. I really see the A220 opening up LAX, SFO, perhaps right sizing LGB. I could dream of more LGB TCONS, but that is unlikely. SAN, SNA, perhaps a return to ONT? I personally would like to see Florida to California flights.

I see a market at JetBlue for 200+ A220-300 (perhaps 30 should be -100?). How many depends on Moxie's actual model, Delta's future expansion, as well as Spirit (do they buy the A220?).

Perhaps JetBlue makes more of a hub at LAS?

Lightsaber



I use to Use the LAS HP/US Hub a lot and the Redeye Bank was a wonder to behold... All the different cities that got flights from 10:30 PM to 1:00 am I could go pretty much anywere I needed if i missed a flight out of LAX by just having them take me to LAS for late night flight.
 
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Re: JetBlue In Talks for A321XLR

Thu Jun 20, 2019 10:46 pm

Revelation wrote:
The only downer is that delivery won't start till 2023...

True however BOS has no gates before 2023 (or is it 2022?), when the new terminal expansion is supposed to be completed.
 
wv399
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Re: JetBlue In Talks for A321XLR

Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:15 pm

airbazar wrote:
Revelation wrote:
The only downer is that delivery won't start till 2023...

True however BOS has no gates before 2023 (or is it 2022?), when the new terminal expansion is supposed to be completed.

Maybe they'll have gates in ATL by then too!
 
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Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Fri Jun 21, 2019 12:26 am

Get those B6 Embraers while they last!
 
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Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:42 am

lightsaber wrote:
tphuang wrote:
The 10 more A223 just shows that A220s were never meant to just be E90 replacement. I would guess 40 to 50 A223s can replace those E90 flying just based on the higher utilization + greater capacity. Any additional A223 will be used to replace A320s. They got 50 options left. I'm sure they got killer deal on those. If I was to guess, they are just waiting for A220-500 to be ready before ordering more.
.

First I agree fewer A223 are required to replace 60 E190. I expect the better economics to be used for expansion.

For example, JetBlue made their name on TCON flights. I see more destinations on the West coast from BOS, JFK, FLL. I really see the A220 opening up LAX, SFO, perhaps right sizing LGB. I could dream of more LGB TCONS, but that is unlikely. SAN, SNA, perhaps a return to ONT? I personally would like to see Florida to California flights.

I see a market at JetBlue for 200+ A220-300 (perhaps 30 should be -100?). How many depends on Moxie's actual model, Delta's future expansion, as well as Spirit (do they buy the A220?).

Perhaps JetBlue makes more of a hub at LAS?

Lightsaber

perhaps a return to ONT
They already returned.
Daily to JFK.
 
FlyerTalkUserNa
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Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:19 am

As a point of comparison, I think the XLR has the range to operate every long-haul flight AA offers out of MIA.

The XLR could be a way for JetBlue to grow their FLL presence into something resembling a legacy hub over the next 10-15 years.
 
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Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Fri Jun 21, 2019 4:42 am

I could definitely see B6 doing the Continental strategy of secondary Europe, plus seasonal services to places like PRG and FCO. As for the Americas, GRU could be a destination, but at 4130 nmi, that could be pushing it from JFK, depending on the configuration. HOWEVER, every South American capital or major would be within reach from FLL on a narrow body, including secondary Argentina cities, depending on bilaterals (with the XLR and the A220-300 being used). American could really end up taking a hit out of its fortress hub in MIA, similar to how JetBlue ruined American in New York. I think the A321XLR could be what makes American finally downgrade JFK to a focus city, as all of the major business centers are now opened up on a narrow-body with a far superior product on JetBlue, in addition to secondary cities. This includes: LHR or LGW, CDG, MAD, BCN, LIS, OPO (seasonally), MXP, FCO (seasonally), and DUS (I see B6 staying away from FRA and MUC). (ATH and TLV are still out of reach unless on fifth freedoms via a European city.)

I actually would be surprised if some A321neo orders are not deferred so that they can become the XLR. The A321LR could be for places like secondary UK (BHX, MAN, EDI, GLA) and DUB. This gives B6 a major strategy: JFK for most TATL, and FLL for most LatAm.

Also, I expect JetBlue to start retiring some A320s by that point (that are already fully paid off).

As for the options on the A220s not already exercised, those should be A220-100 frames for the regional network around JFK and BOS as some of the airfields would likely be too big for an A220-300.

JetBlue is becoming what legacy Eastern desired to be.
 
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Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:54 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I could definitely see B6 doing the Continental strategy of secondary Europe, plus seasonal services to places like PRG and FCO. As for the Americas, GRU could be a destination, but at 4130 nmi, that could be pushing it from JFK, depending on the configuration. HOWEVER, every South American capital or major would be within reach from FLL on a narrow body, including secondary Argentina cities, depending on bilaterals (with the XLR and the A220-300 being used). American could really end up taking a hit out of its fortress hub in MIA, similar to how JetBlue ruined American in New York. I think the A321XLR could be what makes American finally downgrade JFK to a focus city, as all of the major business centers are now opened up on a narrow-body with a far superior product on JetBlue, in addition to secondary cities. This includes: LHR or LGW, CDG, MAD, BCN, LIS, OPO (seasonally), MXP, FCO (seasonally), and DUS (I see B6 staying away from FRA and MUC). (ATH and TLV are still out of reach unless on fifth freedoms via a European city.)

I actually would be surprised if some A321neo orders are not deferred so that they can become the XLR. The A321LR could be for places like secondary UK (BHX, MAN, EDI, GLA) and DUB. This gives B6 a major strategy: JFK for most TATL, and FLL for most LatAm.

Also, I expect JetBlue to start retiring some A320s by that point (that are already fully paid off).

As for the options on the A220s not already exercised, those should be A220-100 frames for the regional network around JFK and BOS as some of the airfields would likely be too big for an A220-300.

JetBlue is becoming what legacy Eastern desired to be.


:checkmark:

I agree, although I think you could say “BOS/JFK for most TATL”. I also think that plans could evolve further if JFK slot restrictions are ever lifted. Given how well located BOS is for TATL flying, I could see B6 using BOS as a connecting hub to help fill flights to thinner markets like MAN, EDI, HEL etc.

It still mystifies me as to why B6 has not exercised A220-100 options, which I would think are better suited for some of those high frequency business markets (like LGA/PHL/BWI/PIT). The -300 feels like a little bit too much aircraft to me...it’s just barely smaller than the A320.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1126
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:08 am

JakubH wrote:
A few interesting markets B6 should consider:

Cologne/Bonn (CGN)
Prague (PRG)
Düsseldorf (DUS)
Geneva (GVA)
Berlin (TXL)

All of these are a good mix of business and tourist traffic with very limited non-seasonal connectivity to North America.

Exciting times ahead!


Prague certainly not. PRG is seasonal, tourist heavy, with very limited business demand and that market is sufficiently well served with DL and UA in the NY Area market (seasonally). The rest of those markets are also not likely B6 candidates. If JetBlue goes deeper into Europe, they'll likely go to Spain, Italy, France.
 
stylo777
Posts: 2675
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 7:32 pm

Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:09 am

congratulations to B6 and Airbus on the XLR deal. I would also assume that the backdoor is still open for more conversions from neo/LR to XLR variant.

4500nm range @JFK:

Image
courtesy of gcmap.com

as already mentioned by previous respondents, it opens up pretty much the whole of Europe.
it's still way too early to tell and many years to go until the first delivery; however, JFK to places like:
- LGW, ZRH, DUS, ORY, MXP, VIE, MAD, GVA
are in my opinion quite high on the list of potential destinations.

the advantage is that you can easily swap the xlr also on shorter routes in order to increase utilization between two mid/long-haul flights.
 
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aemoreira1981
Posts: 2779
Joined: Mon Jan 09, 2017 12:17 am

Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:39 pm

Cointrin330 wrote:
JakubH wrote:
A few interesting markets B6 should consider:

Cologne/Bonn (CGN)
Prague (PRG)
Düsseldorf (DUS)
Geneva (GVA)
Berlin (TXL)

All of these are a good mix of business and tourist traffic with very limited non-seasonal connectivity to North America.

Exciting times ahead!


Prague certainly not. PRG is seasonal, tourist heavy, with very limited business demand and that market is sufficiently well served with DL and UA in the NY Area market (seasonally). The rest of those markets are also not likely B6 candidates. If JetBlue goes deeper into Europe, they'll likely go to Spain, Italy, France.


DUS (and possibly HAM) could definitely be targets. GVA is interesting because traffic on GVA-JFK is largely driven by the United Nations, and that is the only long-haul route for LX out of GVA.
 
EvanWSFO
Posts: 1122
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2018 9:22 pm

Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:53 pm

JakubH wrote:
A few interesting markets B6 should consider:

Cologne/Bonn (CGN)
Prague (PRG)
Düsseldorf (DUS)
Geneva (GVA)
Berlin (TXL)

All of these are a good mix of business and tourist traffic with very limited non-seasonal connectivity to North America.

Exciting times ahead!


Maybe by the time they start taking delivery, Brandenburg might be open. I'm not counting on it. :duck:
I have been on this site 15 years. A unrecoverable email account led me to starting over. Those of you who call me a rookie, you may stop ok?
 
tphuang
Posts: 2993
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:57 pm

Another thing to think about.

Both Jetblue and Norwegian urged Boeing to launch NMA
https://www.msn.com/en-us/money/compani ... ar-AACTvRc

Interesting here, since B6 has long been considered as a loyal Airbus customer, especially after A220 replacing E90s. I'm generally not a big fan of a LCC like B6 having too much fleet complexity. Having both A220 and A320 series already seem to be a lot. But it is interesting that they are considering NMA rather than something like A330NEO down the road if TATL flying is successful. For an airline for B6's size, it's a good thing to keep both major airliners as options. Even if they don't purchase NMA down the road, having NMA would put pressure on A321XLR pricing. I would imagine Airbus must be making a killing on these conversions from baseline NEO model. NMA would probably give them the option of flying JFK-GRU/EZE down south and JFK-IST, FLL-LON/MAD for TATL. Maybe even JFK-TLV? I can't imagine too many other market B6 would be interested in flying out of JFK even if they had A350.

lightsaber wrote:
First I agree fewer A223 are required to replace 60 E190. I expect the better economics to be used for expansion.

For example, JetBlue made their name on TCON flights. I see more destinations on the West coast from BOS, JFK, FLL. I really see the A220 opening up LAX, SFO, perhaps right sizing LGB. I could dream of more LGB TCONS, but that is unlikely. SAN, SNA, perhaps a return to ONT? I personally would like to see Florida to California flights.

I see a market at JetBlue for 200+ A220-300 (perhaps 30 should be -100?). How many depends on Moxie's actual model, Delta's future expansion, as well as Spirit (do they buy the A220?).

Perhaps JetBlue makes more of a hub at LAS?

Lightsaber

I wish they had option for even more A220s. I doubt they would get as good pricing down the road for A220 as they got with this first 60+60. Maybe a merger with Moxy down the road would do it =)

I have been wondering about what they could do with A220 in transcon market. BOS/JFK-SNA/BUR should get it pretty early on due to the short runways. After that, I think they will try to use it on some markets that can't support daily service on A320. Something like BOS-PDX should get it. BOS-SMF could also run for longer period of time. Out of Florida, they could try FLL-PDX. I think FLL-SEA should be on mint. As for Florida to Cali, MCO-LAX would work better on A220. MCO-SFO might be possible. Maybe MCO-BUR/SNA are possible. I think after their experience with FLL-LGB, you won't see more florida to LGB flights.

But I wonder what else they could try out of LAX. I was thinking something like LAX to RSW/PBI/JAX. The first 2 might hurt FLL a little bit, but should all have enough demand and JAX is a really fast growing market and there should be demand from LA basin to North Florida. They could also try something like LAX-BDL/PVD, but that could hurt BOS-LAX. But these will be further down the road and once they have enough gates at LAX.

jetbluefan1 wrote:
aemoreira1981 wrote:
I could definitely see B6 doing the Continental strategy of secondary Europe, plus seasonal services to places like PRG and FCO. As for the Americas, GRU could be a destination, but at 4130 nmi, that could be pushing it from JFK, depending on the configuration. HOWEVER, every South American capital or major would be within reach from FLL on a narrow body, including secondary Argentina cities, depending on bilaterals (with the XLR and the A220-300 being used). American could really end up taking a hit out of its fortress hub in MIA, similar to how JetBlue ruined American in New York. I think the A321XLR could be what makes American finally downgrade JFK to a focus city, as all of the major business centers are now opened up on a narrow-body with a far superior product on JetBlue, in addition to secondary cities. This includes: LHR or LGW, CDG, MAD, BCN, LIS, OPO (seasonally), MXP, FCO (seasonally), and DUS (I see B6 staying away from FRA and MUC). (ATH and TLV are still out of reach unless on fifth freedoms via a European city.)

I actually would be surprised if some A321neo orders are not deferred so that they can become the XLR. The A321LR could be for places like secondary UK (BHX, MAN, EDI, GLA) and DUB. This gives B6 a major strategy: JFK for most TATL, and FLL for most LatAm.

Also, I expect JetBlue to start retiring some A320s by that point (that are already fully paid off).

As for the options on the A220s not already exercised, those should be A220-100 frames for the regional network around JFK and BOS as some of the airfields would likely be too big for an A220-300.

JetBlue is becoming what legacy Eastern desired to be.


:checkmark:

I agree, although I think you could say “BOS/JFK for most TATL”. I also think that plans could evolve further if JFK slot restrictions are ever lifted. Given how well located BOS is for TATL flying, I could see B6 using BOS as a connecting hub to help fill flights to thinner markets like MAN, EDI, HEL etc.

It still mystifies me as to why B6 has not exercised A220-100 options, which I would think are better suited for some of those high frequency business markets (like LGA/PHL/BWI/PIT). The -300 feels like a little bit too much aircraft to me...it’s just barely smaller than the A320.


The 10 extra A220-300 are for 2025 delivery, bringing them to 14 such deliveries in 2025 with no A321NEO delivery. That would be rather small growth compared to previous years. Especially considering there are more E90 leaving the fleet that year. So, I think more order is coming. The only question is what that is. I would imagine those shuttle markets will still be operating E90s by the end of 2024. Will they keep some E90 around just for the high frequency markets or will they exercise A220-100 option? I think they are still waiting to figure that out. Either way, I wish they will have even more A220 options given that I think the old A320s will start retiring by then. They will probably go with a mixture of A321 + A220-300/500 for replacement.

FlyerTalkUserNa wrote:
As a point of comparison, I think the XLR has the range to operate every long-haul flight AA offers out of MIA.

The XLR could be a way for JetBlue to grow their FLL presence into something resembling a legacy hub over the next 10-15 years.


Great point there. I think XLR could really allow B6 to have an operation challenging AA at MIA. The main problem over at FLL is lack of gate space. But it's not out of realm of possibility that WN will give up at FLL by then and they can maybe work out something with WN to acquire some of their gates.

They would need more XLRs or NMAs though. I think these 26 are probably all going to BOS/JFK.
 
Brickell305
Posts: 587
Joined: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:07 pm

Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:16 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
I could definitely see B6 doing the Continental strategy of secondary Europe, plus seasonal services to places like PRG and FCO. As for the Americas, GRU could be a destination, but at 4130 nmi, that could be pushing it from JFK, depending on the configuration. HOWEVER, every South American capital or major would be within reach from FLL on a narrow body, including secondary Argentina cities, depending on bilaterals (with the XLR and the A220-300 being used). American could really end up taking a hit out of its fortress hub in MIA, similar to how JetBlue ruined American in New York. I think the A321XLR could be what makes American finally downgrade JFK to a focus city, as all of the major business centers are now opened up on a narrow-body with a far superior product on JetBlue, in addition to secondary cities. This includes: LHR or LGW, CDG, MAD, BCN, LIS, OPO (seasonally), MXP, FCO (seasonally), and DUS (I see B6 staying away from FRA and MUC). (ATH and TLV are still out of reach unless on fifth freedoms via a European city.)

I actually would be surprised if some A321neo orders are not deferred so that they can become the XLR. The A321LR could be for places like secondary UK (BHX, MAN, EDI, GLA) and DUB. This gives B6 a major strategy: JFK for most TATL, and FLL for most LatAm.

Also, I expect JetBlue to start retiring some A320s by that point (that are already fully paid off).

As for the options on the A220s not already exercised, those should be A220-100 frames for the regional network around JFK and BOS as some of the airfields would likely be too big for an A220-300.

JetBlue is becoming what legacy Eastern desired to be.

Good luck to B6 trying to outdo AA out of So. Fla. While FLL has proven to be interchangeable with MIA for most domestic/under two hour international flights, for anything international beyond that MIA is still the dominant airport. Even looking at the places AA serves vs B6 now, AA's Caribbean/near Latam out of MIA dwarfs what B6 does out of FLL. B6 has even had to cut back on routes like FLL-BGI/POS while AA has either expanded or maintained at both despite the fact that most of the VFR on both lives closer (or equidistant to) FLL than MIA. The foreign flag carriers also recognize MIA as the dominant airport. Look at what CM offers service-wise to MIA vs what they offer to FLL. Any airline offering FLL-GRU or the like is going to be aiming for budget pax. A legacy style hub out of FLL wouldn't do very well. Stick to the heavy US point of sale tourist destinations like MBJ, CUN, AUA, the under two hour large VFR destinations like KIN, HAV, SDQ where no one wants a drive from the airport that's as long as their flight. Outside of that though, you really do need to compete where the majority of pax want to go unless you offer bare bones fares a la Spirit.
 
User avatar
ODwyerPW
Posts: 1500
Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 6:30 am

Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:03 pm

Dieuwer wrote:
A lot of things can happen between now and 2024. From a "simple" B6 bankruptcy to nuclear WW-3.


Olddog wrote:
You forgot a zombie invasion....


And polar ice caps melting.

tphuang wrote:
They got 50 options left. I'm sure they got killer deal on those. If I was to guess, they are just waiting for A220-500 to be ready before ordering more.


It's a neat product mix for JetBlue. They never ordered the A320NEO, just went straight to A321NEO.

A321NEO / A321LR / A321XLR have been the choice for recent A320 family orders.
A220-300 to replace and up-gauge E190.
The aging A320s? They can't take all of those 162pax planes and upgauge them to 200pax (A321)… Will we see more 140pax (A223) planes ordered and those routes down-gauged? Or will JetBlue just order the A320NEO? Or will Airbus launch an A220-500 that would yield 150-160 pax but reduced range in comparison to A320? Guess we will watch the next 10 years to find out... provided none of the above occur. ;p


.
learning never stops.
 
Cointrin330
Posts: 1126
Joined: Sat Jul 16, 2016 12:23 pm

Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:04 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
Cointrin330 wrote:
JakubH wrote:
A few interesting markets B6 should consider:

Cologne/Bonn (CGN)
Prague (PRG)
Düsseldorf (DUS)
Geneva (GVA)
Berlin (TXL)

All of these are a good mix of business and tourist traffic with very limited non-seasonal connectivity to North America.

Exciting times ahead!


Prague certainly not. PRG is seasonal, tourist heavy, with very limited business demand and that market is sufficiently well served with DL and UA in the NY Area market (seasonally). The rest of those markets are also not likely B6 candidates. If JetBlue goes deeper into Europe, they'll likely go to Spain, Italy, France.


DUS (and possibly HAM) could definitely be targets. GVA is interesting because traffic on GVA-JFK is largely driven by the United Nations, and that is the only long-haul route for LX out of GVA.


B6 is more of a leisure carrier than a P2P business carrier, though Mint has changed that. I think B6 will probably focus on TATL markets where they can undercut the Big 3 US carriers on price and service and be able to do it with a smaller aircraft (A321) and focus on the biggest Europe markets first, then look further afield. I don't see GVA, HAM, and DUS happening.
 
N757ST
Posts: 703
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:07 pm

ODwyerPW wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
A lot of things can happen between now and 2024. From a "simple" B6 bankruptcy to nuclear WW-3.


Olddog wrote:
You forgot a zombie invasion....


And polar ice caps melting.

tphuang wrote:
They got 50 options left. I'm sure they got killer deal on those. If I was to guess, they are just waiting for A220-500 to be ready before ordering more.


It's a neat product mix for JetBlue. They never ordered the A320NEO, just went straight to A321NEO.

A321NEO / A321LR / A321XLR have been the choice for recent A320 family orders.
A220-300 to replace and up-gauge E190.
The aging A320s? They can't take all of those 162pax planes and upgauge them to 200pax (A321)… Will we see more 140pax (A223) planes ordered and those routes down-gauged? Or will JetBlue just order the A320NEO? Or will Airbus launch an A220-500 that would yield 150-160 pax but reduced range in comparison to A320? Guess we will watch the next 10 years to find out... provided none of the above occur. ;p


.


They ordered a considerable amount of A320neos, but they were all converted to a321neos about a year or 2 ago.
 
rrbsztk
Posts: 118
Joined: Sun Jan 20, 2019 2:48 am

Re: Updated: JetBlue orders 13 A321XLR and 10 A223

Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:21 pm

N757ST wrote:
ODwyerPW wrote:
Dieuwer wrote:
A lot of things can happen between now and 2024. From a "simple" B6 bankruptcy to nuclear WW-3.


Olddog wrote:
You forgot a zombie invasion....


And polar ice caps melting.

tphuang wrote:
They got 50 options left. I'm sure they got killer deal on those. If I was to guess, they are just waiting for A220-500 to be ready before ordering more.


It's a neat product mix for JetBlue. They never ordered the A320NEO, just went straight to A321NEO.

A321NEO / A321LR / A321XLR have been the choice for recent A320 family orders.
A220-300 to replace and up-gauge E190.
The aging A320s? They can't take all of those 162pax planes and upgauge them to 200pax (A321)… Will we see more 140pax (A223) planes ordered and those routes down-gauged? Or will JetBlue just order the A320NEO? Or will Airbus launch an A220-500 that would yield 150-160 pax but reduced range in comparison to A320? Guess we will watch the next 10 years to find out... provided none of the above occur. ;p


.


They ordered a considerable amount of A320neos, but they were all converted to a321neos about a year or 2 ago.



The A320neos were converted at the same time they ordered the A220s.
https://www.ch-aviation.com/portal/news ... to-a321neo
 
evank516
Posts: 1944
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:15 am

Re: JetBlue In Talks for A321XLR

Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:57 pm

jetbluefan1 wrote:
9252fly wrote:
jetbluefan1 wrote:


Interesting to see a top-up order for 10 A220's included in the press release.


Yeah, I think it's more or less keeping in stride with supporting Airbus during the show in Paris.

Frankly I'm a little surprised they didn't announce an exercise of options for some A220-100's instead of the -300's.


So am I. I think they're going to need the -100s at some point.

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