Dominion301
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De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Mon Jun 03, 2019 5:44 pm

Longview Aviation Capital is resurrecting the de Havilland Aircraft of Canada Limited name for the new entity that will govern its global Dash 8 aircraft business.

That announcement came on June 3 with the formal completion of Longview’s acquisition of the entire Bombardier Dash 8 program, including the 100, 200 and 300 series and the in-production Q400.


https://www.skiesmag.com/news/de-havill ... the-skies/

Sometimes, what goes around comes around.

Would love to see the DH1 and DH3 come back into production. Here's hoping there's still a lot of life left in the Q400.
 
wrongwayup
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:26 pm

https://dehavilland.com/en

Perhaps unsurprisingly, the Q400 appears to have been removed from Bombardier website.
 
ILNFlyer
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:30 pm

I always thought the Twin Otter was a cool airplane. Would be nice to see them in production again.
 
Someone83
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:35 pm

ILNFlyer wrote:
I always thought the Twin Otter was a cool airplane. Would be nice to see them in production again.


They restarted the production under the Viking name a few years back

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Havill ... Twin_Otter
 
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Mon Jun 03, 2019 6:39 pm

Bring back the maple leaf!



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baje427
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:25 pm

I wonder if they will revive the Q200 or Q300.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:44 pm

First big step is stabilizing the Q400 production, need a good bit of orders like now. Does production stay in Mirabel or move out west.

Viking Air has done decent supporting the previous DHC models, but it has been tough. It appears they have a plan, hope it is profitable.
 
golfradio
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:45 pm

Looks like they acquired the DHC 100, 200 and 300 series portfolio from Viking Air. The Twotter will still be produced by Viking.
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Aircellist
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:50 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
First big step is stabilizing the Q400 production, need a good bit of orders like now. Does production stay in Mirabel or move out west.

Viking Air has done decent supporting the previous DHC models, but it has been tough. It appears they have a plan, hope it is profitable.


Production has never been in Mirabel; it is in Downsview, which is a suburb of Toronto, not Montreal.
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Skywatcher
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:54 pm

The current Q-400 site in Toronto has been sold to real estate developers. It is unclear where production will move or even if it will continue at all beyond the current backlog.
 
Canuck600
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:56 pm

Golfradio Longview Aviation Capital is the parent company of Viking so I doubt there was acquisition in the truest sense of the word, more like a transfer between divisions. In reality I think a lot of functions will be carried out by Viking. Hopefully there will be some Twin Otter & Q sales in Paris.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Mon Jun 03, 2019 7:59 pm

Aircellist wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:
First big step is stabilizing the Q400 production, need a good bit of orders like now. Does production stay in Mirabel or move out west.

Viking Air has done decent supporting the previous DHC models, but it has been tough. It appears they have a plan, hope it is profitable.


Production has never been in Mirabel; it is in Downsview, which is a suburb of Toronto, not Montreal.


Oops, you are right.

Per Skywatcher's post, the site has been sold so does it move in 2 years or just die. There are huge costs to moving a line, but by moving the current union contract probably goes away. This could reduce production cost, but the talent is gone, hard to replicate.
 
Canuck600
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Mon Jun 03, 2019 8:00 pm

Skywatcher wrote:
The current Q-400 site in Toronto has been sold to real estate developers. It is unclear where production will move or even if it will continue at all beyond the current backlog.


According to the article they have use of the Downsview property until 2023.
 
leghorn
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Mon Jun 03, 2019 9:55 pm

It seems they are marketing it as the "Dash" alliteratively.

If they can hack away at the cost of building the thing it could steal enough of the 76 seater market to spoil the game for the Jet Manufacturers which overlap that part of the market. Not optimistic about that though.
 
beechnut
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:09 pm

The big issue, I suspect, is whether they can offer the level of global support for the aircraft, that Bombardier did. ISTM that global support is one of the big reasons the Russian aircraft fail to make a dent in the market.

Beech
 
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Mon Jun 03, 2019 11:15 pm

Needs a NextGen of the Q200, Q300, and Dash 7.
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Gulfstream500
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:01 am

Alright then... time for someone to buy the rights to building the MD-11 and Boeing 717 and ressurect McDonnell Douglas! :stirthepot:
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drgmobile
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:10 am

I'm less curious about the current aircraft models, and more about R&D. Are they going to be content to pump out the current product line or are they prepared to invest in research and development for a new generation of aircraft? Perhaps as a joint venture with one of the upstart electric aircraft companies?
 
KFLLCFII
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:19 am

Can't wait for the Comet NG to grace the skies.

Not too sure about the Comet Max, though.
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Andyq400
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:00 am

DeHavilland is bringing the current support network along for the ride. This is why Dash 8's have world class reliability. Interaction with customers thru Regional Reviews , Working Groups and Steering Committees and a Robust FRACAS system make a huge difference.
 
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:26 am

How about bringing back the original regional jet...Avro Canada C102 Jetliner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Canada_C102_Jetliner
36 seats with 1,200 mile range.
 
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:40 am

I was excited about the perspect of the 300 getting an update, but with the 400 Combi getting a grand total of 4 orders, I'm not sure 300 operators can afford to buy new.

As for R&D, Viking showed a willingness to upgrade before opening a new Twin-Otter line.
 
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:43 am

golfradio wrote:
Looks like they acquired the DHC 100, 200 and 300 series portfolio from Viking Air. The Twotter will still be produced by Viking.

No. In November 2018, Longview acquired the whole Dash 8 program from Bombardier, not just the Q100-Q300; Viking never owned the Dash 8 program, just the DHC-1 through DHC-7 and the CL-215/CL-415.
De Havilland Canada is wholly owned by Longview Aviation Capital, who's also the parent company of Viking Air.
 
speedbird52
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:56 am

admanager wrote:
How about bringing back the original regional jet...Avro Canada C102 Jetliner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avro_Canada_C102_Jetliner
36 seats with 1,200 mile range.

Canada had so many opportunities to become a leader or at least major player in the aviation industry. This, the Arrow, the C-Series...
 
sunking737
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:28 am

So is Viking changing its name to DHC Corp, or did Viking sell to DHC??
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:55 am

sunking737 wrote:
So is Viking changing its name to DHC Corp, or did Viking sell to DHC??

Neither. Viking's parent company purchased the DHC-8 line and had created a separate company to run it, preserving the success that is Viking.
 
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:29 am

KFLLCFII wrote:
Can't wait for the Comet NG to grace the skies.

Not too sure about the Comet Max, though.


Those LEAPs will sure look good buried in the wing roots :lol:
 
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:46 am

KFLLCFII wrote:
Can't wait for the Comet NG to grace the skies.

Not too sure about the Comet Max, though.


Imagine how cool a Comet would be if you gave it a Nimrod MRA4 style makeover! :cloudnine:
 
Canuck600
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Tue Jun 04, 2019 12:35 pm

Those that are making the Comet comments are being sarcastic right? The Comet wasn't a De Haviland of Canada product.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:13 pm

Canuck600 wrote:
Those that are making the Comet comments are being sarcastic right? The Comet wasn't a De Haviland of Canada product.

Guess those comments went way above your head...
 
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:56 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
Canuck600 wrote:
Those that are making the Comet comments are being sarcastic right? The Comet wasn't a De Haviland of Canada product.

Guess those comments went way above your head...

Hey, is it too soon to start the Canadair CL-44 NEO threads yet?
 
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:59 pm

This is super awesome news. I have a feeling that the they will develop a Next Gen Dash 8-300 (50 seat config) and maybe even the DH8-100 Next gen (37 seat).

It's pretty exciting, especially for me, since I've been flying "The Classic" for a while now. I'd love to see a "-100" with new engines, new flight deck and some updated systems. There is a market for that and it would be a shame to give it all to ATR. I'm sure operators in Canada currently flying the DH8 will be very interested in a new, updated version of this aircraft.

The Q400 is a bit large on certain routes...
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rampbro
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:35 pm

This is great news on so many levels. I grew up less than a click from Viking and have watched them grow from a parts refurb/build shop into a full fledged aircraft manufacturing company. This is the next step in an incredible trajectory.
 
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:46 pm

VSMUT wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
Can't wait for the Comet NG to grace the skies.

Not too sure about the Comet Max, though.


Imagine how cool a Comet would be if you gave it a Nimrod MRA4 style makeover! :cloudnine:

Even better.....it's perfect to carry the new Rolls Royce Pearl engines
 
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:10 pm

Channex757 wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
KFLLCFII wrote:
Can't wait for the Comet NG to grace the skies.

Not too sure about the Comet Max, though.


Imagine how cool a Comet would be if you gave it a Nimrod MRA4 style makeover! :cloudnine:

Even better.....it's perfect to carry the new Rolls Royce Pearl engines


As long as it can transport large quantities of fish over vast expanses of open ocean...and not leave a bag or passenger behind.
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iceberg210
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:30 pm

Vio wrote:
This is super awesome news. I have a feeling that the they will develop a Next Gen Dash 8-300 (50 seat config) and maybe even the DH8-100 Next gen (37 seat).

It's pretty exciting, especially for me, since I've been flying "The Classic" for a while now. I'd love to see a "-100" with new engines, new flight deck and some updated systems. There is a market for that and it would be a shame to give it all to ATR. I'm sure operators in Canada currently flying the DH8 will be very interested in a new, updated version of this aircraft.

The Q400 is a bit large on certain routes...

I've wondered could they do a Q100NG with the Catalyst engine. It'd be a bit underpowered from where it's at (1800=>1600 hp) but if you lightened the 100 a bit, or gave up some performance it might be an incredibly economical aircraft especially if you could plug and play the Catalyst engines (much more efficient and less maintenance) and the Q400 flight deck back into the 100. How possible that is I don't know. The 300 I would think you could pretty much bring back as it was already offered, although whether or not it'd sell I don't know, there just doesn't seem to be much of a set change of engine tech in that or the Q400 segment as of yet, or at least that I know of
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william
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:57 pm

It's the engines that keep the Q from competing effectively with the ATRs right? Is there a smaller engine out there that will narrow the costs gap between the Q and the ATR?
 
Zidane
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Tue Jun 04, 2019 11:21 pm

Awesome news, especially for Caribbean carriers. The Dash has been an exceptional workhorse there, unfortunately they were phased out as they aged in favour of the often loathed ATR.
 
A380MSN004
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:39 am

william wrote:
It's the engines that keep the Q from competing effectively with the ATRs right? Is there a smaller engine out there that will narrow the costs gap between the Q and the ATR?


If you are talking about the Q400 VS ATR72, there's a Long Range Cruise Speed mode that is around the same speed and fuel consumption of the ATR72 (275kt). This is at least what is promoted by the Q400 guys.
Still the acquisition cost is is higher for the Q400
 
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:37 am

A380MSN004 wrote:
If you are talking about the Q400 VS ATR72, there's a Long Range Cruise Speed mode that is around the same speed and fuel consumption of the ATR72 (275kt). This is at least what is promoted by the Q400 guys.


At reasonable weights - i.e. with real-world payloads & without obfuscation from the marketing department - the manuals list between 700 and 850 kg/h in the Long Range Cruise regime at FL250 in ISA conditions. Cruise speeds are between the mid 280s and lower 300s.
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baje427
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:13 pm

Would the Q400 benefit from using more composite materials ? If they could somehow improve the efficiency of the Q400 that might help. Also I have seen the Q400 being referred to as a hangar queen. If that is the case they will need to improve efficiency,reliability and production costs.
 
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:18 pm

baje427 wrote:
Would the Q400 benefit from using more composite materials ? If they could somehow improve the efficiency of the Q400 that might help. Also I have seen the Q400 being referred to as a hangar queen. If that is the case they will need to improve efficiency,reliability and production costs.

The Q400 needs to cut costs. Adding more composites, especially from a company likely inexperienced in that tech, goes counter to that.
 
A380MSN004
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:29 pm

One thing that would Be interesting To know.
What The CO2 footprint comparison between The Q400 and The ATR72-600?
 
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TripleDelta
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:04 pm

baje427 wrote:
Also I have seen the Q400 being referred to as a hangar queen.


While the Q400 undeniably suffers from some reliability issues, the label "hangar queen" is unjust. Its record first needs to be put into perspective; that is, measured against the types of operations and flight frequencies it is most often employed on. At my carrier, each of our Qs logs well over 2,000 cycles a year - many of which in the weather (crosswinds, turbulence) and on runways that are often sloping, worn from use and surfaced with materials of marginal quality. Our oldest aircraft had over the course of a decade logged 25,000 flights; that's 25,000 cycles of pressurization and 25,000 landings of all sorts in just 10 years - up to 10 a day every day at peak times (roughly half a year every year).

When that level of punishment is taken into account - as well as the complexity of its systems (it's not a Twin Otter after all) - its reliability is not really as bad as the Internet thinks :). Could be better of course, but definitely not as its reputation would suggest.
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Dominion301
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:13 pm

TripleDelta wrote:
baje427 wrote:
Also I have seen the Q400 being referred to as a hangar queen.


While the Q400 undeniably suffers from some reliability issues, the label "hangar queen" is unjust. Its record first needs to be put into perspective; that is, measured against the types of operations and flight frequencies it is most often employed on. At my carrier, each of our Qs logs well over 2,000 cycles a year - many of which in the weather (crosswinds, turbulence) and on runways that are often sloping, worn from use and surfaced with materials of marginal quality. Our oldest aircraft had over the course of a decade logged 25,000 flights; that's 25,000 cycles of pressurization and 25,000 landings of all sorts in just 10 years - up to 10 a day every day at peak times (roughly half a year every year).

When that level of punishment is taken into account - as well as the complexity of its systems (it's not a Twin Otter after all) - its reliability is not really as bad as the Internet thinks :). Could be better of course, but definitely not as its reputation would suggest.


The DH1/2/3 were always seen as being 'built like tanks'. The Q400 is equally a tank...even if it is a bit less reliable. I think a lot of that has to do with the high profile SAS gear collapses.
 
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:04 pm

Dominion301 wrote:
I think a lot of that has to do with the high profile SAS gear collapses.


Possible; but I'm more inclined to believe that all of its current woes are simply down to it being a huge compromise. Battleship build and 360 knot cruise speeds cost money - so to keep the end price sensible enough, Bombardier had to go cheap on the inside.

For example, system sensors are one of the Achilles' heels of the Q400; in my own experience, the vast majority of issues I've had with it were just sensor malfunctions and false readings, not actual system failures. From a statistical point of view, the problem is that all of those malfunctions/readings require the attention of tech crews; this in turn causes delays and an increase in down time on the ground - which, when tallied together, makes for grim reading. Couple all of that to their hard lives and high number of cycles and you quickly get the impression of gross unreliability and excessive "hangarqueenness".
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Radar: "Well, none of it makes any sense. You just have to send in the right number of forms." - MASH 4077
 
A380MSN004
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:10 pm

TripleDelta wrote:
Dominion301 wrote:
I think a lot of that has to do with the high profile SAS gear collapses.


Possible; but I'm more inclined to believe that all of its current woes are simply down to it being a huge compromise. Battleship build and 360 knot cruise speeds cost money - so to keep the end price sensible enough, Bombardier had to go cheap on the inside.

For example, system sensors are one of the Achilles' heels of the Q400; in my own experience, the vast majority of issues I've had with it were just sensor malfunctions and false readings, not actual system failures. From a statistical point of view, the problem is that all of those malfunctions/readings require the attention of tech crews; this in turn causes delays and an increase in down time on the ground - which, when tallied together, makes for grim reading. Couple all of that to their hard lives and high number of cycles and you quickly get the impression of gross unreliability and excessive "hangarqueenness".


Thanks for All those very interesting details. I recently had a chat with a Q400 Captain/Instructor @ Luxair about the reliability of the Q400. According his own experience he hasn't had much more issue than other aircrafts he flew (B737 Classic / A320 / Fokker).

@Tripledelta : you carrier is based in Europe or in Others America?
 
VSMUT
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:08 pm

william wrote:
It's the engines that keep the Q from competing effectively with the ATRs right? Is there a smaller engine out there that will narrow the costs gap between the Q and the ATR?


It's more than that. The Q400 is heavy and overbuilt. Expensive to build and requires more maintenance. Airport fees are higher. The ATR is completely basic and really cheap.

On the engine front there is the PW127, same as what powers the ATR. Would be fine for the Q300, but the Q400 is on the heavy side for that.

A380MSN004 wrote:
If you are talking about the Q400 VS ATR72, there's a Long Range Cruise Speed mode that is around the same speed and fuel consumption of the ATR72 (275kt). This is at least what is promoted by the Q400 guys.
Still the acquisition cost is is higher for the Q400


The Q400 burns somewhat more fuel than the ATR, even in long range cruise speed mode.


A380MSN004 wrote:
One thing that would Be interesting To know.
What The CO2 footprint comparison between The Q400 and The ATR72-600?


Almost certainly lower for the ATR. Burns less fuel and is much simpler to build, requires less resources. No APU for example.

One of the biggest challenges for ATR at the moment is the latest generation of turbofans. The A220 and E2 (even A320neo) are really making themselves felt. For the Q400, that challenge is even worse. That leaves the short and rough field market, but with the new STOL ATR 42-600 and various other improvements, DHC will have to invest a lot to match it. They still haven't gotten round to fitting more silent 6-bladed propellers or developed a new cabin on any of them, apart from the Q400.
 
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:30 pm

A380MSN004 wrote:
Thanks for All those very interesting details. I recently had a chat with a Q400 Captain/Instructor @ Luxair about the reliability of the Q400. According his own experience he hasn't had much more issue than other aircrafts he flew (B737 Classic / A320 / Fokker).


The thing about the Q400 is that it is almost a hand-built aircraft - so all of them differ in minute details from airframe to airframe. Most aircraft have such issues; but on the Q they're I feel more pronounced than on many other in-production types, and when they add up they can significantly alter the user experience for crews, passengers and operations alike. It is not unheard of for one aircraft to be as reliable as a mountain - while another from the same series goes wrong if there's a day in the week. One can be a beaut to fly, but a nightmare to maintain; another can be the delight of the tech crews, but the bane of the cockpit guys.

Essentially, get a good one and you won't ever know it's there; get a lemon and you'll pretty quickly start writing hate mail to Bombardier :D.

A380MSN004 wrote:
@Tripledelta : you carrier is based in Europe or in Others America?


We're in Europe :).
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Radar: "Well, none of it makes any sense. You just have to send in the right number of forms." - MASH 4077
 
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Re: De Havilland Aircraft of Canada Returns to the Skies

Wed Jun 05, 2019 8:52 pm

VSMUT wrote:
No APU for example.


The APU is an optional extra on the Q400; the basic no-frills version doesn't even have it. The fact that virtually all - if not all - operators chose to have it fitted says that it is not dead weight.
Hawkeye: "It doesn't make any sense."
Radar: "Well, none of it makes any sense. You just have to send in the right number of forms." - MASH 4077

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