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axiom
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Sun Jun 09, 2019 10:41 pm

DeltaRules wrote:
BDLtoORD wrote:
Hey guys, new poster here, but I saw an article that seems prettty applicable to this discussion, seems like Flightglobal has been reading this thread

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ta-458775/

"ANALYSIS: What makes a focus city for Delta?"

"We've chosen these focus cities based on a strong economic environment and, really, areas where we think the Delta product will really make a difference," she said.

"Delta has three classifications for cities it considers more than a spoke. Atlanta, Detroit, Minneapolis/St Paul and Salt Lake City are its "core hubs" where it focuses on driving connectivity, says Martin."

"Boston – upgraded from a focus city just this year – Los Angeles, New York John F Kennedy and LaGuardia, and Seattle Tacoma are "coastal hubs" for Delta, she says. These are top 10 markets in the USA where the airline operates more than 150 peak day flights and offers some level of connectivity."


Image

"We've really selected markets that have a lot of youthful presence, strong corporate standing, and where we've seen above average growth for the industry," says Martin when asked how Delta selects its focus cities.

"The cities the airline has selected generally meet these criteria. San Jose – at the centre of Silicon Valley – is a dynamic technology hub in one of the richest and rapidly growing regions in the USA, while Austin and Raleigh are both growing tech hubs in their own right. Nashville is a dynamic city in the US South with above average growth, and Cincinnati a former Delta hub that retains a strong local corporate base.

Passenger traffic at the five airports grew as much as 15% at Cincinnati in 2018, US Department of Transportation data shows. Austin traffic was up 13%, Nashville up 8%, Raleigh up 9.7% and San Jose up 9.2%."

"Delta sees an opportunity to capture share with its product and schedules, for example connecting more travellers to its global network, says Martin."

Image

"Delta's strategy differs by focus city. It serves both its hubs and numerous spokes from Cincinnati and Raleigh with up to 80 peak day flights, while routes from Austin, Nashville and San Jose are limited almost entirely to hubs and other focus cities, Cirium schedules data shows. Flight operations peak at 28 in Austin, 42 in Nashville and 31 in San Jose this summer."

"A lot of the focus is just trying to, for example Raleigh, really understand where the Raleigh business traveller needs to go, the times they need to go, what's their travel preferences and then trying to figure out how we tailor our network to be able to make sure we have good connectivity," says Martin.

"Memphis, a former Northwest Airlines hub that Delta closed in 2013, is no longer considered a focus city, she says when asked. However, she adds that the airline is watching the market for growth opportunities."

Hope this explained a few things


So "focus city" in this sense refers to "a market we really like and want to be #1 in" akin to WN's "Hometown Airline" thing, then? It also sounds to me like they might add more cities to this classification.


It’s more marketing than strategy. An objective look at their position and growth rate in markets like AUS and SJC says it all. Whether or not this sort of marketing steering is followed by a meaningful change in strategy (and more seats in the market) remains to be seen.
 
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kc135topboom
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:21 pm

I wish DL would come back to DFW. All we can do right now from DFW is SLT or ATL direct on DL, plus Delta Connection. Years ago when DL was #2 at DFW, I would fly them everywhere, BOS, JFK, ATL, SFO, LAX, SEA, even HNL. Now I'm stuck with AA, and they suck. Or I fly DL and connect through ATL or SLT to get to where I'm going.
 
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:33 pm

axiom wrote:
DeltaRules wrote:
BDLtoORD wrote:
Hey guys, new poster here, but I saw an article that seems prettty applicable to this discussion, seems like Flightglobal has been reading this thread

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ta-458775/

"ANALYSIS: What makes a focus city for Delta?"

"We've chosen these focus cities based on a strong economic environment and, really, areas where we think the Delta product will really make a difference," she said.

"Delta has three classifications for cities it considers more than a spoke. Atlanta, Detroit, Minneapolis/St Paul and Salt Lake City are its "core hubs" where it focuses on driving connectivity, says Martin."

"Boston – upgraded from a focus city just this year – Los Angeles, New York John F Kennedy and LaGuardia, and Seattle Tacoma are "coastal hubs" for Delta, she says. These are top 10 markets in the USA where the airline operates more than 150 peak day flights and offers some level of connectivity."


Image

"We've really selected markets that have a lot of youthful presence, strong corporate standing, and where we've seen above average growth for the industry," says Martin when asked how Delta selects its focus cities.

"The cities the airline has selected generally meet these criteria. San Jose – at the centre of Silicon Valley – is a dynamic technology hub in one of the richest and rapidly growing regions in the USA, while Austin and Raleigh are both growing tech hubs in their own right. Nashville is a dynamic city in the US South with above average growth, and Cincinnati a former Delta hub that retains a strong local corporate base.

Passenger traffic at the five airports grew as much as 15% at Cincinnati in 2018, US Department of Transportation data shows. Austin traffic was up 13%, Nashville up 8%, Raleigh up 9.7% and San Jose up 9.2%."

"Delta sees an opportunity to capture share with its product and schedules, for example connecting more travellers to its global network, says Martin."

Image

"Delta's strategy differs by focus city. It serves both its hubs and numerous spokes from Cincinnati and Raleigh with up to 80 peak day flights, while routes from Austin, Nashville and San Jose are limited almost entirely to hubs and other focus cities, Cirium schedules data shows. Flight operations peak at 28 in Austin, 42 in Nashville and 31 in San Jose this summer."

"A lot of the focus is just trying to, for example Raleigh, really understand where the Raleigh business traveller needs to go, the times they need to go, what's their travel preferences and then trying to figure out how we tailor our network to be able to make sure we have good connectivity," says Martin.

"Memphis, a former Northwest Airlines hub that Delta closed in 2013, is no longer considered a focus city, she says when asked. However, she adds that the airline is watching the market for growth opportunities."

Hope this explained a few things


So "focus city" in this sense refers to "a market we really like and want to be #1 in" akin to WN's "Hometown Airline" thing, then? It also sounds to me like they might add more cities to this classification.


It’s more marketing than strategy. An objective look at their position and growth rate in markets like AUS and SJC says it all. Whether or not this sort of marketing steering is followed by a meaningful change in strategy (and more seats in the market) remains to be seen.


I don’t know what AUS numbers are, but at SJC with 31 flights and a planned 24% growth, that’s only about 8 more flights on the horizon. That puts them above AA but well below AS and WN. DL won’t unseat the top dogs at SJC anytime soon, and there aren’t enough gates even at the full terminal buildouts to come close to AS or WN unless one of them cuts way back.
 
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jfklganyc
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:48 pm

DFW in 04 was a medium sized city, with DL being a distant number two, too many RJs, and an airline industry in disarray.

In retrospect with the growth of Texas and the metroplex, Delta could have had a spot there akin to AA at ORD. They just needed to ride out the bad years and start upguaging.

But that’s ancient history at this point.
AA is too big now...And it might’ve not been worth the fight anyway.
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:52 pm

Other airports that should be considered Delta focus cities by having Nashville service as the minimum:

LAS: DL has TWICE as much service there as they do in BNA
TPA: still twice as much as BNA
MCO: THREE times as much service as BNA (and they have more non-hub destinations as they do hub flights.
MSY: about 200k more passengers per year than BNA

So... why aren’t these focus cities?

RDU I can understand. CVG is most definitely a focus city. BOS has most always been a hub.

But BNA and SJC? They have less traffic than a whole lot of non-focus cities
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DeltaRules
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Sun Jun 09, 2019 11:56 pm

Not well-known, but CMH was a focus city in the mid-2000s, though more in the operational sense as it was centered around the RP ERJ operation DL assumed from HP. I found a CRAA newsletter about a year ago from late 2004 where the term was used.
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EvanWSFO
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:04 am

Fargo wrote:
southwest1675 wrote:
Fargo wrote:

BNA-SNA on DL would be an oddball route for sure, I doubt this is true.


Who knows. Nashville is looking for another reliever LAX flight.


Didn't WN just launch BNA-BUR today? I'm pretty sure they'd launch BNA-ONT/SNA before DL would get enough A220's to launch the route.


How long since WN dropped the BNA-ONT flight? Seems quite awhile.
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southwest1675
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 1:50 am

EvanWSFO wrote:
Fargo wrote:
southwest1675 wrote:

Who knows. Nashville is looking for another reliever LAX flight.


Didn't WN just launch BNA-BUR today? I'm pretty sure they'd launch BNA-ONT/SNA before DL would get enough A220's to launch the route.


How long since WN dropped the BNA-ONT flight? Seems quite awhile.


Well over 10 years.
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727LOVER
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:09 am

With the rich history that NW had in MKE, wonder why MKE isn't one
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Fargo
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:18 am

727LOVER wrote:
With the rich history that NW had in MKE, wonder why MKE isn't one


Why isn’t every mid-sized city one? Lol

Seriously, DL is using this term too liberally IMO. The only true focus cities that fit the definition are CVG and RDU.
 
AirFiero
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:46 am

Gulfstream500 wrote:
Other airports that should be considered Delta focus cities by having Nashville service as the minimum:

LAS: DL has TWICE as much service there as they do in BNA
TPA: still twice as much as BNA
MCO: THREE times as much service as BNA (and they have more non-hub destinations as they do hub flights.
MSY: about 200k more passengers per year than BNA

So... why aren’t these focus cities?

RDU I can understand. CVG is most definitely a focus city. BOS has most always been a hub.

But BNA and SJC? They have less traffic than a whole lot of non-focus cities


By less traffic, I assume you mean existing number of DL flights. They seem to see this as an opportunity for growth.
 
axiom
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:16 am

AirFiero wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
Other airports that should be considered Delta focus cities by having Nashville service as the minimum:

LAS: DL has TWICE as much service there as they do in BNA
TPA: still twice as much as BNA
MCO: THREE times as much service as BNA (and they have more non-hub destinations as they do hub flights.
MSY: about 200k more passengers per year than BNA

So... why aren’t these focus cities?

RDU I can understand. CVG is most definitely a focus city. BOS has most always been a hub.

But BNA and SJC? They have less traffic than a whole lot of non-focus cities


By less traffic, I assume you mean existing number of DL flights. They seem to see this as an opportunity for growth.


And seats. Markets like MCO, TPA, and LAS see relatively few RJs. By seat count, they are much larger than those like BNA, AUS, SJC
 
max999
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:24 am

Gulfstream500 wrote:
Other airports that should be considered Delta focus cities by having Nashville service as the minimum:

LAS: DL has TWICE as much service there as they do in BNA
TPA: still twice as much as BNA
MCO: THREE times as much service as BNA (and they have more non-hub destinations as they do hub flights.
MSY: about 200k more passengers per year than BNA

So... why aren’t these focus cities?

RDU I can understand. CVG is most definitely a focus city. BOS has most always been a hub.

But BNA and SJC? They have less traffic than a whole lot of non-focus cities


Many people seem to think a focus city must be qualified by the number of flights, the number of seats, or whether the airport has a lounge. Those might be true, but I think DL has internal metrics that makes a focus city. These metrics are internal so they may not be apparent to outsiders.

For example, a focus city may:
*have dedicated corporate sales teams
*have higher revenue goals
*use only DL-employed ground staff and not use contractors

This list can go on and on...

So even if a focus city doesn't have many flights or seats, there may be other unseen factors that make it a DL focus city.
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Nola
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:52 am

jfklganyc wrote:
DFW in 04 was a medium sized city, with DL being a distant number two, too many RJs, and an airline industry in disarray.

In retrospect with the growth of Texas and the metroplex, Delta could have had a spot there akin to AA at ORD. They just needed to ride out the bad years and start upguaging.

But that’s ancient history at this point.
AA is too big now...And it might’ve not been worth the fight anyway.


DL didn’t have the money to fight at DFW. They also didn’t have another hub that was co spidered expendable. The closure of DFW and overnight fleet reshuffle was Grinstein’s last gasp before filing off bankruptcy.
 
mats01776
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:13 pm

max999 wrote:
Many people seem to think a focus city must be qualified by the number of flights, the number of seats, or whether the airport has a lounge. Those might be true, but I think DL has internal metrics that makes a focus city. These metrics are internal so they may not be apparent to outsiders.

For example, a focus city may:
*have dedicated corporate sales teams
*have higher revenue goals
*use only DL-employed ground staff and not use contractors

This list can go on and on...

So even if a focus city doesn't have many flights or seats, there may be other unseen factors that make it a DL focus city.


Which reminds me of the old adage: "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

If the term "focus city" is meaningful only for internal Delta use, what's the point of ever referring to it in a press release?
 
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spinotter
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 3:35 pm

Gulfstream500 wrote:
Other airports that should be considered Delta focus cities by having Nashville service as the minimum:

LAS: DL has TWICE as much service there as they do in BNA
TPA: still twice as much as BNA
MCO: THREE times as much service as BNA (and they have more non-hub destinations as they do hub flights.
MSY: about 200k more passengers per year than BNA

So... why aren’t these focus cities?

RDU I can understand. CVG is most definitely a focus city. BOS has most always been a hub.

But BNA and SJC? They have less traffic than a whole lot of non-focus cities


But the future demographics of AUS, SJC, and BNA are much more promising than those of MSY or TPA, don't you agree? Grow where growth is.
 
AirFiero
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 4:50 pm

mats01776 wrote:
max999 wrote:
Many people seem to think a focus city must be qualified by the number of flights, the number of seats, or whether the airport has a lounge. Those might be true, but I think DL has internal metrics that makes a focus city. These metrics are internal so they may not be apparent to outsiders.

For example, a focus city may:
*have dedicated corporate sales teams
*have higher revenue goals
*use only DL-employed ground staff and not use contractors

This list can go on and on...

So even if a focus city doesn't have many flights or seats, there may be other unseen factors that make it a DL focus city.


Which reminds me of the old adage: "If a tree falls in a forest and no one is around to hear it, does it make a sound?"

If the term "focus city" is meaningful only for internal Delta use, what's the point of ever referring to it in a press release?


Or how about the phrase “picking gnat s*** out of pepper”, which seems to happen all too often and threads seem to break down into on a.net.

DL has decided to focus on the cities listed for reasons that fit their business model and plans. There is the simple answer.
 
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:12 pm

spinotter wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
Other airports that should be considered Delta focus cities by having Nashville service as the minimum:

LAS: DL has TWICE as much service there as they do in BNA
TPA: still twice as much as BNA
MCO: THREE times as much service as BNA (and they have more non-hub destinations as they do hub flights.
MSY: about 200k more passengers per year than BNA

So... why aren’t these focus cities?

RDU I can understand. CVG is most definitely a focus city. BOS has most always been a hub.

But BNA and SJC? They have less traffic than a whole lot of non-focus cities


But the future demographics of AUS, SJC, and BNA are much more promising than those of MSY or TPA, don't you agree? Grow where growth is.


There is a serious problem with that type of thinking because that's where everyone is going. It's funny that DL makes all of their money in places that are not techie and great growth cities like DTW/MSP/SLC, but when it comes to expansion, it goes for the same spot where all the LCCs go or dominate. And it has much higher cost levels. CVG might not be a sexy location, but I bet it's much more profitable than all the domestic projects they have going.

Calling SJC a focus city is a joke. They want to get into that kind of fare war environment vs WN and AS?
 
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:17 pm

Dupe post
Last edited by AirFiero on Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:25 pm, edited 3 times in total.
 
AirFiero
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:24 pm

tphuang wrote:
spinotter wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
Other airports that should be considered Delta focus cities by having Nashville service as the minimum:

LAS: DL has TWICE as much service there as they do in BNA
TPA: still twice as much as BNA
MCO: THREE times as much service as BNA (and they have more non-hub destinations as they do hub flights.
MSY: about 200k more passengers per year than BNA

So... why aren’t these focus cities?

RDU I can understand. CVG is most definitely a focus city. BOS has most always been a hub.

But BNA and SJC? They have less traffic than a whole lot of non-focus cities


But the future demographics of AUS, SJC, and BNA are much more promising than those of MSY or TPA, don't you agree? Grow where growth is.


There is a serious problem with that type of thinking because that's where everyone is going. It's funny that DL makes all of their money in places that are not techie and great growth cities like DTW/MSP/SLC, but when it comes to expansion, it goes for the same spot where all the LCCs go or dominate. And it has much higher cost levels. CVG might not be a sexy location, but I bet it's much more profitable than all the domestic projects they have going.

Calling SJC a focus city is a joke. They want to get into that kind of fare war environment vs WN and AS?


Sometimes, I get the impression you have it in for SJC ;)

DL obviously sees some kind of potential there, perhaps the same thing that WN and AS see, perhaps a different segment of the market. Maybe it is DL frequent flyers in the South Bay, maybe it’s trying to take some of the passengers from SFO, especially those who are driving from the South Bay...who knows? But I don’t think DL is stupid. They must see something that they believe is within reach.
 
tphuang
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:25 pm

AirFiero wrote:
tphuang wrote:
spinotter wrote:

But the future demographics of AUS, SJC, and BNA are much more promising than those of MSY or TPA, don't you agree? Grow where growth is.


There is a serious problem with that type of thinking because that's where everyone is going. It's funny that DL makes all of their money in places that are not techie and great growth cities like DTW/MSP/SLC, but when it comes to expansion, it goes for the same spot where all the LCCs go or dominate. And it has much higher cost levels. CVG might not be a sexy location, but I bet it's much more profitable than all the domestic projects they have going.

Calling SJC a focus city is a joke. They want to get into that kind of fare war environment vs WN and AS?


Sometimes, I get the impression you have it in for SJC ;)

DL obviously sees some kind of potential there, perhaps the same thing that WN and AS see, perhaps a different segment of the market. M


I can see why you would have that impression, but believe me that it's really nothing personal. I'm just reflecting on the numbers. OAK is obviously the highest fare airport in the region given lack of competition. SFO pulls most of the premium traffic in the region. Unless AS backs off its efforts at SJC, it will be low fared for the foreseeable future. That's why you see JetSuitex expand like mad out of OAK and have now pulled out of SJC twice.
 
AirFiero
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:26 pm

tphuang wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
tphuang wrote:

There is a serious problem with that type of thinking because that's where everyone is going. It's funny that DL makes all of their money in places that are not techie and great growth cities like DTW/MSP/SLC, but when it comes to expansion, it goes for the same spot where all the LCCs go or dominate. And it has much higher cost levels. CVG might not be a sexy location, but I bet it's much more profitable than all the domestic projects they have going.

Calling SJC a focus city is a joke. They want to get into that kind of fare war environment vs WN and AS?


Sometimes, I get the impression you have it in for SJC ;)

DL obviously sees some kind of potential there, perhaps the same thing that WN and AS see, perhaps a different segment of the market. M


I can see why you would have that impression, but believe me that it's really nothing personal. I'm just reflecting on the numbers. OAK is obviously the highest fare airport in the region given lack of competition. SFO pulls most of the premium traffic in the region. Unless AS backs off its efforts at SJC, it will be low fared for the foreseeable future. That's why you see JetSuitex expand like mad out of OAK and have now pulled out of SJC twice.


Sorry, that post went out before i was finished typing. Please see the next post. But to answer this post, maybe DL believes it can take some of the premium traffic from SFO, which I’d bet real money that a not-insignificant percentage actually comes from the South Bay Area. DL is a “premium” carrier. WN is a quasi-LCC, and AS seems to be straddling the middle between the two. Maybe that is what DL is “focusing” on? Remember, SFO has about 4 times the passenger traffic of SJC, and *some* of those passengers drive by SJC to get there. I’d say there’s some fruit for picking there.
 
max999
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:53 pm

tphuang wrote:
spinotter wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
Other airports that should be considered Delta focus cities by having Nashville service as the minimum:

LAS: DL has TWICE as much service there as they do in BNA
TPA: still twice as much as BNA
MCO: THREE times as much service as BNA (and they have more non-hub destinations as they do hub flights.
MSY: about 200k more passengers per year than BNA

So... why aren’t these focus cities?

RDU I can understand. CVG is most definitely a focus city. BOS has most always been a hub.

But BNA and SJC? They have less traffic than a whole lot of non-focus cities


But the future demographics of AUS, SJC, and BNA are much more promising than those of MSY or TPA, don't you agree? Grow where growth is.


There is a serious problem with that type of thinking because that's where everyone is going. It's funny that DL makes all of their money in places that are not techie and great growth cities like DTW/MSP/SLC, but when it comes to expansion, it goes for the same spot where all the LCCs go or dominate. And it has much higher cost levels. CVG might not be a sexy location, but I bet it's much more profitable than all the domestic projects they have going.

Calling SJC a focus city is a joke. They want to get into that kind of fare war environment vs WN and AS?


I think that's a lot of armchair CEO-ing in there. You can question their strategy, decisions, seats, routes, fleet, and everything else.

But whatever DL is doing, the numbers prove they have been going down the right path. DL has been consistently the most profitable airline in the world for several years now. DL's operational metrics (e.g., on time arrival, cancellations, etc) have been consistently good, especially when compared to its closest competitors UA and AA.

In some areas, DL takes some risks so it can get better returns, such as building the SEA and BOS hubs, investing in seatback IFE, or paying its employees above industry wages, especially when it comes to profit sharing. In other areas, DL is more conservative like its fleet strategy. Overall, DL has made just the right number of balanced decisions that makes it well-run and very profitable airline.
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BDLtoORD
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 5:57 pm

AirFiero wrote:
tphuang wrote:
spinotter wrote:

But the future demographics of AUS, SJC, and BNA are much more promising than those of MSY or TPA, don't you agree? Grow where growth is.


There is a serious problem with that type of thinking because that's where everyone is going. It's funny that DL makes all of their money in places that are not techie and great growth cities like DTW/MSP/SLC, but when it comes to expansion, it goes for the same spot where all the LCCs go or dominate. And it has much higher cost levels. CVG might not be a sexy location, but I bet it's much more profitable than all the domestic projects they have going.

Calling SJC a focus city is a joke. They want to get into that kind of fare war environment vs WN and AS?


Sometimes, I get the impression you have it in for SJC ;)

DL obviously sees some kind of potential there, perhaps the same thing that WN and AS see, perhaps a different segment of the market. Maybe it is DL frequent flyers in the South Bay, maybe it’s trying to take some of the passengers from SFO, especially those who are driving from the South Bay...who knows? But I don’t think DL is stupid. They must see something that they believe is within reach.


Moving forward SJC is going to be a sink-hole in terms of airline profits, and it is amazing how dirt cheap airline tickets have become in California, with all of this competition going on. All of these airlines are competing for the same segment of the market, and while WN and AS are seen as "leisure carriers," both compete heavily in the corporate space. Southwest and Alaska have corporate sales teams in the region, and have been strong on the west coast for decades, and with UA up the road it certainly won't be easy for DL to compete in the region.

All that being said, this strategy might not be all about Bay Area based passengers. Plenty of other cities around the country have business ties to Silicon Valley, and a nonstop flight to SJC may be advantageous in Delta winning business contracts in those cities.

AirFiero wrote:
But to answer this post, maybe DL believes it can take some of the premium traffic from SFO, which I’d bet real money that a not-insignificant percentage actually comes from the South Bay Area. DL is a “premium” carrier. WN is a quasi-LCC, and AS seems to be straddling the middle between the two. Maybe that is what DL is “focusing” on? Remember, SFO has about 4 times the passenger traffic of SJC, and *some* of those passengers drive by SJC to get there. I’d say there’s some fruit for picking there.


That traffic goes to SFO for a reason, UA offers an international network from SFO that is amazing plus UA offers massive discounts on travel to most of the large companies in the region, so I don't see this system changing unless DL grows a sizable int'l network in SJC.
 
ucdtim17
Posts: 565
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:38 pm

Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:04 pm

AirFiero wrote:
tphuang wrote:
AirFiero wrote:

Sometimes, I get the impression you have it in for SJC ;)

DL obviously sees some kind of potential there, perhaps the same thing that WN and AS see, perhaps a different segment of the market. M


I can see why you would have that impression, but believe me that it's really nothing personal. I'm just reflecting on the numbers. OAK is obviously the highest fare airport in the region given lack of competition. SFO pulls most of the premium traffic in the region. Unless AS backs off its efforts at SJC, it will be low fared for the foreseeable future. That's why you see JetSuitex expand like mad out of OAK and have now pulled out of SJC twice.


Sorry, that post went out before i was finished typing. Please see the next post. But to answer this post, maybe DL believes it can take some of the premium traffic from SFO, which I’d bet real money that a not-insignificant percentage actually comes from the South Bay Area. DL is a “premium” carrier. WN is a quasi-LCC, and AS seems to be straddling the middle between the two. Maybe that is what DL is “focusing” on? Remember, SFO has about 4 times the passenger traffic of SJC, and *some* of those passengers drive by SJC to get there. I’d say there’s some fruit for picking there.


That's all true, but it's always been true and yet OAK and SJC have always struggled to gain any significant share compared to SFO. Airlines don't like competing with, and undercutting, their existing schedule at SFO.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 3939
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:21 pm

compensateme wrote:
Midwestindy wrote:
"Delta is also reclassifying some of its smaller cities as focus cities. Nashville and San Jose, California, have joined its list of domestic focus operations that also includes Austin, Cincinnati and Raleigh/Durham"


Much ado about nothing...

I'm curious as to DL's definition of "focus city." It appears DL may be labeling markets its aggressively adding capacity (e.g. SJC) as focus cities, even though that capacity is coming from its hubs. Most of us view "focus cities" as markets with P2P service (e.g. CVG). Notice FG mentions AUS was already a focus city... in any event, let the wild, baseless a.net posts begin. I'll start:

I can see DL adding the following routes from SJC:
AUS (320), DEN (738), DFW (220), BOS (757), ORD (738), SAN (E75), PDX (E75) and HNL (757).


Now you're pushing it by denoting the airplanes they should fly. DFW a 220? ORD a 738? HNL a 757? Did you look to see what the loads are in and out of those cities and what their competitors are flying? They need to tailor the airplanes to the passenger loads they're flying at any time of day. They could be selling themselves short or dumping capacity where no return on Investment exists. HNL from Where? ORD from Where? United and American are nearly flat out at ORD, Delta would sure as hell be flat out with a 738, Delta might well be leaving revenue capacity behind if they go with your scenario.. Only single fleet and "Podunk" carriers would go into a city and not have options to meet their loads. Especially a carrier the size of Delta. Southwest couldn't go into ORD and meet their demand with their 737's. (which is why they probably stay at Midway) ( it would take MOXIE to go into ORD.)
 
AirFiero
Posts: 1358
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:43 pm

Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:21 pm

BDLtoORD wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
tphuang wrote:

There is a serious problem with that type of thinking because that's where everyone is going. It's funny that DL makes all of their money in places that are not techie and great growth cities like DTW/MSP/SLC, but when it comes to expansion, it goes for the same spot where all the LCCs go or dominate. And it has much higher cost levels. CVG might not be a sexy location, but I bet it's much more profitable than all the domestic projects they have going.

Calling SJC a focus city is a joke. They want to get into that kind of fare war environment vs WN and AS?


Sometimes, I get the impression you have it in for SJC ;)

DL obviously sees some kind of potential there, perhaps the same thing that WN and AS see, perhaps a different segment of the market. Maybe it is DL frequent flyers in the South Bay, maybe it’s trying to take some of the passengers from SFO, especially those who are driving from the South Bay...who knows? But I don’t think DL is stupid. They must see something that they believe is within reach.


Moving forward SJC is going to be a sink-hole in terms of airline profits, and it is amazing how dirt cheap airline tickets have become in California, with all of this competition going on. All of these airlines are competing for the same segment of the market, and while WN and AS are seen as "leisure carriers," both compete heavily in the corporate space. Southwest and Alaska have corporate sales teams in the region, and have been strong on the west coast for decades, and with UA up the road it certainly won't be easy for DL to compete in the region.

All that being said, this strategy might not be all about Bay Area based passengers. Plenty of other cities around the country have business ties to Silicon Valley, and a nonstop flight to SJC may be advantageous in Delta winning business contracts in those cities.

AirFiero wrote:
But to answer this post, maybe DL believes it can take some of the premium traffic from SFO, which I’d bet real money that a not-insignificant percentage actually comes from the South Bay Area. DL is a “premium” carrier. WN is a quasi-LCC, and AS seems to be straddling the middle between the two. Maybe that is what DL is “focusing” on? Remember, SFO has about 4 times the passenger traffic of SJC, and *some* of those passengers drive by SJC to get there. I’d say there’s some fruit for picking there.


That traffic goes to SFO for a reason, UA offers an international network from SFO that is amazing plus UA offers massive discounts on travel to most of the large companies in the region, so I don't see this system changing unless DL grows a sizable int'l network in SJC.


Good point about business travelers. I think another point we should look at is that not all business travelers are international. Some, yes. But isn’t there significant *domestic* business travel that is a potential for non stop flights to SJC?

As for WN and AS and corporate business, I don’t doubt that, but WN doesn’t have F or B class. AS is quite a bit smaller than DL. And DL is comparable in size to UA. While they can’t compete with UA in the Bay Area on a hub scale, they seem to think there is some portion of the market that is available for them to tap into. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Here’s something I’ve been thinking about for some time. Doesn’t SFO have between 70-80 total gates? SJC’s terminal build out plan is for a maximum of 40 gates, down from an original 45 (I wouldn’t be surprised if the City Council might change that, if there’s a business case). That means SJC can build approximately half the number of gates that SFO has, although far fewer would be widebody capable. But if SJC can capture some percentage of Bay Area traffic, there is pretty good growth potential (assuming no major economic downturn, like post-9/11).
 
AirFiero
Posts: 1358
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:43 pm

Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:23 pm

ucdtim17 wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
tphuang wrote:

I can see why you would have that impression, but believe me that it's really nothing personal. I'm just reflecting on the numbers. OAK is obviously the highest fare airport in the region given lack of competition. SFO pulls most of the premium traffic in the region. Unless AS backs off its efforts at SJC, it will be low fared for the foreseeable future. That's why you see JetSuitex expand like mad out of OAK and have now pulled out of SJC twice.


Sorry, that post went out before i was finished typing. Please see the next post. But to answer this post, maybe DL believes it can take some of the premium traffic from SFO, which I’d bet real money that a not-insignificant percentage actually comes from the South Bay Area. DL is a “premium” carrier. WN is a quasi-LCC, and AS seems to be straddling the middle between the two. Maybe that is what DL is “focusing” on? Remember, SFO has about 4 times the passenger traffic of SJC, and *some* of those passengers drive by SJC to get there. I’d say there’s some fruit for picking there.


That's all true, but it's always been true and yet OAK and SJC have always struggled to gain any significant share compared to SFO. Airlines don't like competing with, and undercutting, their existing schedule at SFO.


Understood. But DL obviously sees some potential. As one other guy brought up, there’s significant business travel to/from Silicon Valley, right near SJC. I don’t know how many flights DL has at SFO, but they seem to think adding at SJC will bring new business. Maybe that’s stealing from SFO and UA? Who knows at this point.
 
strfyr51
Posts: 3939
Joined: Tue Apr 10, 2012 5:04 pm

Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:28 pm

AirFiero wrote:
BDLtoORD wrote:
AirFiero wrote:

Sometimes, I get the impression you have it in for SJC ;)

DL obviously sees some kind of potential there, perhaps the same thing that WN and AS see, perhaps a different segment of the market. Maybe it is DL frequent flyers in the South Bay, maybe it’s trying to take some of the passengers from SFO, especially those who are driving from the South Bay...who knows? But I don’t think DL is stupid. They must see something that they believe is within reach.


Moving forward SJC is going to be a sink-hole in terms of airline profits, and it is amazing how dirt cheap airline tickets have become in California, with all of this competition going on. All of these airlines are competing for the same segment of the market, and while WN and AS are seen as "leisure carriers," both compete heavily in the corporate space. Southwest and Alaska have corporate sales teams in the region, and have been strong on the west coast for decades, and with UA up the road it certainly won't be easy for DL to compete in the region.

All that being said, this strategy might not be all about Bay Area based passengers. Plenty of other cities around the country have business ties to Silicon Valley, and a nonstop flight to SJC may be advantageous in Delta winning business contracts in those cities.

AirFiero wrote:
But to answer this post, maybe DL believes it can take some of the premium traffic from SFO, which I’d bet real money that a not-insignificant percentage actually comes from the South Bay Area. DL is a “premium” carrier. WN is a quasi-LCC, and AS seems to be straddling the middle between the two. Maybe that is what DL is “focusing” on? Remember, SFO has about 4 times the passenger traffic of SJC, and *some* of those passengers drive by SJC to get there. I’d say there’s some fruit for picking there.


That traffic goes to SFO for a reason, UA offers an international network from SFO that is amazing plus UA offers massive discounts on travel to most of the large companies in the region, so I don't see this system changing unless DL grows a sizable int'l network in SJC.


Good point about business travelers. I think another point we should look at is that not all business travelers are international. Some, yes. But isn’t there significant *domestic* business travel that is a potential for non stop flights to SJC?

As for WN and AS and corporate business, I don’t doubt that, but WN doesn’t have F or B class. AS is quite a bit smaller than DL. And DL is comparable in size to UA. While they can’t compete with UA in the Bay Area on a hub scale, they seem to think there is some portion of the market that is available for them to tap into. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Here’s something I’ve been thinking about for some time. Doesn’t SFO have between 70-80 total gates? SJC’s terminal build out plan is for a maximum of 40 gates, down from an original 45 (I wouldn’t be surprised if the City Council might change that, if there’s a business case). That means SJC can build approximately half the number of gates that SFO has, although far fewer would be widebody capable. But if SJC can capture some percentage of Bay Area traffic, there is pretty good growth potential (assuming no major economic downturn, like post-9/11).

LAST I looked? SFO has 110+ gates. On United's North terminal the far end gate is Gate 90. And if you count the A and B gates? Probably even more than that, SJC doesn't have the room at present flr what you're talking about unless they plan to take out some Parking lots and add parking across the Montague Expressway.
 
AirFiero
Posts: 1358
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:43 pm

Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 6:46 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
BDLtoORD wrote:

Moving forward SJC is going to be a sink-hole in terms of airline profits, and it is amazing how dirt cheap airline tickets have become in California, with all of this competition going on. All of these airlines are competing for the same segment of the market, and while WN and AS are seen as "leisure carriers," both compete heavily in the corporate space. Southwest and Alaska have corporate sales teams in the region, and have been strong on the west coast for decades, and with UA up the road it certainly won't be easy for DL to compete in the region.

All that being said, this strategy might not be all about Bay Area based passengers. Plenty of other cities around the country have business ties to Silicon Valley, and a nonstop flight to SJC may be advantageous in Delta winning business contracts in those cities.



That traffic goes to SFO for a reason, UA offers an international network from SFO that is amazing plus UA offers massive discounts on travel to most of the large companies in the region, so I don't see this system changing unless DL grows a sizable int'l network in SJC.


Good point about business travelers. I think another point we should look at is that not all business travelers are international. Some, yes. But isn’t there significant *domestic* business travel that is a potential for non stop flights to SJC?

As for WN and AS and corporate business, I don’t doubt that, but WN doesn’t have F or B class. AS is quite a bit smaller than DL. And DL is comparable in size to UA. While they can’t compete with UA in the Bay Area on a hub scale, they seem to think there is some portion of the market that is available for them to tap into. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Here’s something I’ve been thinking about for some time. Doesn’t SFO have between 70-80 total gates? SJC’s terminal build out plan is for a maximum of 40 gates, down from an original 45 (I wouldn’t be surprised if the City Council might change that, if there’s a business case). That means SJC can build approximately half the number of gates that SFO has, although far fewer would be widebody capable. But if SJC can capture some percentage of Bay Area traffic, there is pretty good growth potential (assuming no major economic downturn, like post-9/11).

LAST I looked? SFO has 110+ gates. On United's North terminal the far end gate is Gate 90. And if you count the A and B gates? Probably even more than that, SJC doesn't have the room at present flr what you're talking about unless they plan to take out some Parking lots and add parking across the Montague Expressway.


OK, that’s more than I thought. So let’s do the math. 45 vs. 110, that’s about 40%. SFO is widebody heavy, at least compared to SJC, so that affects the total potential passenger numbers. SJC can currently handle 3 simultaneous widebodies, and maybe that can expand that a bit. So SJC will remain mostly domestic. We would need more numbers, like domestic versus international at SFO, DL’s market share for the entire Bay Area, and so on. SFO has about 60 million passengers, SJC 14 million. It would be interesting to calculate the total potential growth of SJC based on 40% of the mostly domestic flight gate space versus SFO. The numbers might be interesting. Tphuang, where are you? ;)
 
User avatar
spinotter
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:07 pm

tphuang wrote:
spinotter wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
Other airports that should be considered Delta focus cities by having Nashville service as the minimum:

LAS: DL has TWICE as much service there as they do in BNA
TPA: still twice as much as BNA
MCO: THREE times as much service as BNA (and they have more non-hub destinations as they do hub flights.
MSY: about 200k more passengers per year than BNA

So... why aren’t these focus cities?

RDU I can understand. CVG is most definitely a focus city. BOS has most always been a hub.

But BNA and SJC? They have less traffic than a whole lot of non-focus cities


But the future demographics of AUS, SJC, and BNA are much more promising than those of MSY or TPA, don't you agree? Grow where growth is.


There is a serious problem with that type of thinking because that's where everyone is going. It's funny that DL makes all of their money in places that are not techie and great growth cities like DTW/MSP/SLC, but when it comes to expansion, it goes for the same spot where all the LCCs go or dominate. And it has much higher cost levels. CVG might not be a sexy location, but I bet it's much more profitable than all the domestic projects they have going.

Calling SJC a focus city is a joke. They want to get into that kind of fare war environment vs WN and AS?


I think it's geographical relevance. DL is the weakest of the US4 in Texas, so they have to do something there. Pitiful in SFO so have to seek relevance somehow - not in OAK, methinks! BNA is an outlier, but who knows how much it may grow. At least DL is looking over other cities, unlike UA/AA! Go DL!
 
BDLtoORD
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:26 pm

Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 7:16 pm

AirFiero wrote:
BDLtoORD wrote:
AirFiero wrote:

Sometimes, I get the impression you have it in for SJC ;)

DL obviously sees some kind of potential there, perhaps the same thing that WN and AS see, perhaps a different segment of the market. Maybe it is DL frequent flyers in the South Bay, maybe it’s trying to take some of the passengers from SFO, especially those who are driving from the South Bay...who knows? But I don’t think DL is stupid. They must see something that they believe is within reach.


Moving forward SJC is going to be a sink-hole in terms of airline profits, and it is amazing how dirt cheap airline tickets have become in California, with all of this competition going on. All of these airlines are competing for the same segment of the market, and while WN and AS are seen as "leisure carriers," both compete heavily in the corporate space. Southwest and Alaska have corporate sales teams in the region, and have been strong on the west coast for decades, and with UA up the road it certainly won't be easy for DL to compete in the region.

All that being said, this strategy might not be all about Bay Area based passengers. Plenty of other cities around the country have business ties to Silicon Valley, and a nonstop flight to SJC may be advantageous in Delta winning business contracts in those cities.

AirFiero wrote:
But to answer this post, maybe DL believes it can take some of the premium traffic from SFO, which I’d bet real money that a not-insignificant percentage actually comes from the South Bay Area. DL is a “premium” carrier. WN is a quasi-LCC, and AS seems to be straddling the middle between the two. Maybe that is what DL is “focusing” on? Remember, SFO has about 4 times the passenger traffic of SJC, and *some* of those passengers drive by SJC to get there. I’d say there’s some fruit for picking there.


That traffic goes to SFO for a reason, UA offers an international network from SFO that is amazing plus UA offers massive discounts on travel to most of the large companies in the region, so I don't see this system changing unless DL grows a sizable int'l network in SJC.


Good point about business travelers. I think another point we should look at is that not all business travelers are international. Some, yes. But isn’t there significant *domestic* business travel that is a potential for non stop flights to SJC?

As for WN and AS and corporate business, I don’t doubt that, but WN doesn’t have F or B class. AS is quite a bit smaller than DL. And DL is comparable in size to UA. While they can’t compete with UA in the Bay Area on a hub scale, they seem to think there is some portion of the market that is available for them to tap into. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Here’s something I’ve been thinking about for some time. Doesn’t SFO have between 70-80 total gates? SJC’s terminal build out plan is for a maximum of 40 gates, down from an original 45 (I wouldn’t be surprised if the City Council might change that, if there’s a business case). That means SJC can build approximately half the number of gates that SFO has, although far fewer would be widebody capable. But if SJC can capture some percentage of Bay Area traffic, there is pretty good growth potential (assuming no major economic downturn, like post-9/11).


It doesn't really matter whether all/most business travelers within a company are international. If a decent amount are, then a company may "encourage" its employees to take UA even for domestic travel in order to negotiate better discounts for the costly int'l travel. With regards to WN, as you mentioned they don't have F or B, but as long as they offer a significant advantage in terms of nonstop destinations they can effectively compete for corporate business.

Also AS being a smaller airline than DL doesn't matter much in this scenario. The goal is to cater to Bay Area based customers, so as long as they are larger in that arena, that is what matters the most to this specific scenario.
 
tphuang
Posts: 3247
Joined: Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:04 pm

Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:19 pm

max999 wrote:
I think that's a lot of armchair CEO-ing in there. You can question their strategy, decisions, seats, routes, fleet, and everything else.

But whatever DL is doing, the numbers prove they have been going down the right path. DL has been consistently the most profitable airline in the world for several years now. DL's operational metrics (e.g., on time arrival, cancellations, etc) have been consistently good, especially when compared to its closest competitors UA and AA.

In some areas, DL takes some risks so it can get better returns, such as building the SEA and BOS hubs, investing in seatback IFE, or paying its employees above industry wages, especially when it comes to profit sharing. In other areas, DL is more conservative like its fleet strategy. Overall, DL has made just the right number of balanced decisions that makes it well-run and very profitable airline.


Having a hub like ATL allows an airline to take a lot of chances. DL doesn't have the best margins in the industry. It has better margin than AA/UA, which is why it has the most profit as a whole. But WN and NK consistently generate higher margins, and neither has anything close to an ATL to help with expansion effort elsewhere.

The question is whether or not they are taking the right chances. Building SEA and BOS are definitely not generating better returns for them. These are long term plays (along with what they've done in NYC/LAX/RDU) that they hope can turn around in some x number of years down the road.

in some cases like SJC, it might just be a play to help them with corporate contract.

spinotter wrote:

I think it's geographical relevance. DL is the weakest of the US4 in Texas, so they have to do something there. Pitiful in SFO so have to seek relevance somehow - not in OAK, methinks! BNA is an outlier, but who knows how much it may grow. At least DL is looking over other cities, unlike UA/AA! Go DL!

They don't particularly have to do anything in Texas. They made the corporate decision in the past to not fly to Hong Kong or India, which one would imagine are important markets for a global carrier. If they try expanding as AUS, they will certainly draw the attention of WN. It's just a matter of whether they think it's worth the fight.
 
wnflyguy
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Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 7:58 pm

Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:44 pm

Fargo wrote:
southwest1675 wrote:
Fargo wrote:

BNA-SNA on DL would be an oddball route for sure, I doubt this is true.


Who knows. Nashville is looking for another reliever LAX flight.


Didn't WN just launch BNA-BUR today? I'm pretty sure they'd launch BNA-ONT/SNA before DL would get enough A220's to launch the route.


Actually WN was on track to Add SNA-BNA 2 years ago. But the unfavorable SNA slots allocation when DL and AS asked for more slots. So that ended the growth for WN Causing It to cut capacity.
WN not going to grow SNA much in the future unless everyone returns slots again.
There battlefront in California is with AS.
I don't see WN adding SNA-BNA.
But who really knows.

I think BOS- SNA is a preemptive strike against JetBlue. Rumors have JetBlue is moving the daily
LGB-BOS and LGB-JFK flights over to SNA when more A220 come online.

Flyguy
Last edited by wnflyguy on Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
my post are my opinion only and not those of southwest airlines and or airtran airlines.
 
AirFiero
Posts: 1358
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:43 pm

Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:51 pm

BDLtoORD wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
BDLtoORD wrote:

Moving forward SJC is going to be a sink-hole in terms of airline profits, and it is amazing how dirt cheap airline tickets have become in California, with all of this competition going on. All of these airlines are competing for the same segment of the market, and while WN and AS are seen as "leisure carriers," both compete heavily in the corporate space. Southwest and Alaska have corporate sales teams in the region, and have been strong on the west coast for decades, and with UA up the road it certainly won't be easy for DL to compete in the region.

All that being said, this strategy might not be all about Bay Area based passengers. Plenty of other cities around the country have business ties to Silicon Valley, and a nonstop flight to SJC may be advantageous in Delta winning business contracts in those cities.



That traffic goes to SFO for a reason, UA offers an international network from SFO that is amazing plus UA offers massive discounts on travel to most of the large companies in the region, so I don't see this system changing unless DL grows a sizable int'l network in SJC.


Good point about business travelers. I think another point we should look at is that not all business travelers are international. Some, yes. But isn’t there significant *domestic* business travel that is a potential for non stop flights to SJC?

As for WN and AS and corporate business, I don’t doubt that, but WN doesn’t have F or B class. AS is quite a bit smaller than DL. And DL is comparable in size to UA. While they can’t compete with UA in the Bay Area on a hub scale, they seem to think there is some portion of the market that is available for them to tap into. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Here’s something I’ve been thinking about for some time. Doesn’t SFO have between 70-80 total gates? SJC’s terminal build out plan is for a maximum of 40 gates, down from an original 45 (I wouldn’t be surprised if the City Council might change that, if there’s a business case). That means SJC can build approximately half the number of gates that SFO has, although far fewer would be widebody capable. But if SJC can capture some percentage of Bay Area traffic, there is pretty good growth potential (assuming no major economic downturn, like post-9/11).


It doesn't really matter whether all/most business travelers within a company are international. If a decent amount are, then a company may "encourage" its employees to take UA even for domestic travel in order to negotiate better discounts for the costly int'l travel. With regards to WN, as you mentioned they don't have F or B, but as long as they offer a significant advantage in terms of nonstop destinations they can effectively compete for corporate business.

Also AS being a smaller airline than DL doesn't matter much in this scenario. The goal is to cater to Bay Area based customers, so as long as they are larger in that arena, that is what matters the most to this specific scenario.


By that reasoning, how does WN compete in the business contract area when then have NO international flights on the routes UA flies from SFO, and no alliances? Are they relegated to the “low hanging fruit” and lower end of the business travelers? I’m not meaning to be argumentative, I’m just making conversation. I think this move by DL is as interesting as it is puzzling, with all the factors at work in the Bay Area.
 
BDLtoORD
Posts: 10
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:26 pm

Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:07 pm

AirFiero wrote:
BDLtoORD wrote:
AirFiero wrote:

Good point about business travelers. I think another point we should look at is that not all business travelers are international. Some, yes. But isn’t there significant *domestic* business travel that is a potential for non stop flights to SJC?

As for WN and AS and corporate business, I don’t doubt that, but WN doesn’t have F or B class. AS is quite a bit smaller than DL. And DL is comparable in size to UA. While they can’t compete with UA in the Bay Area on a hub scale, they seem to think there is some portion of the market that is available for them to tap into. It will be interesting to see how it all plays out.

Here’s something I’ve been thinking about for some time. Doesn’t SFO have between 70-80 total gates? SJC’s terminal build out plan is for a maximum of 40 gates, down from an original 45 (I wouldn’t be surprised if the City Council might change that, if there’s a business case). That means SJC can build approximately half the number of gates that SFO has, although far fewer would be widebody capable. But if SJC can capture some percentage of Bay Area traffic, there is pretty good growth potential (assuming no major economic downturn, like post-9/11).


It doesn't really matter whether all/most business travelers within a company are international. If a decent amount are, then a company may "encourage" its employees to take UA even for domestic travel in order to negotiate better discounts for the costly int'l travel. With regards to WN, as you mentioned they don't have F or B, but as long as they offer a significant advantage in terms of nonstop destinations they can effectively compete for corporate business.

Also AS being a smaller airline than DL doesn't matter much in this scenario. The goal is to cater to Bay Area based customers, so as long as they are larger in that arena, that is what matters the most to this specific scenario.


By that reasoning, how does WN compete in the business contract area when then have NO international flights on the routes UA flies from SFO, and no alliances? Are they relegated to the “low hanging fruit” and lower end of the business travelers? I’m not meaning to be argumentative, I’m just making conversation. I think this move by DL is as interesting as it is puzzling, with all the factors at work in the Bay Area.


There are plenty of start-ups to mid-sized companies(Lots of Bay Area companies fit in that category) that chose WN as one of their most preferred carriers, in addition to some larger companies that have more lax travel policies for their employees.

But I would say the majority of large multi-national companies don't have WN as their most used carrier, even if they are HQ'd near an airport where WN is the largest carrier. Perfect example of this is Apple.

Going back to one of my original points, this is why I think the goal of SJC becoming a DL focus city isn't solely to compete in the Bay Area, it is to be able to attract customers from across their network by offering nonstop service to the Bay Area. DL knows they won't become the strongest carrier in the Bay Area and probably not even SJC, but if they are able to offer nonstop flights from large tech hubs like SEA, BOS, RDU, AUS, e.t.c to Silicon Valley, that makes them much more appealing in each of those respective areas.
Last edited by BDLtoORD on Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
RainerBoeing777
Posts: 420
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:14 pm

I hope Delta can grow quite a lot to Boston! more European routes such as Madrid, Rome, Milan and Frankfurt.
CX - JL - LH - KE - KL - SQ - QR - QF - TG
 
ASA
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:33 pm

RainerBoeing777 wrote:
I hope Delta can grow quite a lot to Boston! more European routes such as Madrid, Rome, Milan and Frankfurt.


The more competition, the better for us consumers ... hope to see lots more Delta international flights!!! :thumbsup:
 
AirFiero
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:01 am

BDLtoORD wrote:
AirFiero wrote:
BDLtoORD wrote:

It doesn't really matter whether all/most business travelers within a company are international. If a decent amount are, then a company may "encourage" its employees to take UA even for domestic travel in order to negotiate better discounts for the costly int'l travel. With regards to WN, as you mentioned they don't have F or B, but as long as they offer a significant advantage in terms of nonstop destinations they can effectively compete for corporate business.

Also AS being a smaller airline than DL doesn't matter much in this scenario. The goal is to cater to Bay Area based customers, so as long as they are larger in that arena, that is what matters the most to this specific scenario.


By that reasoning, how does WN compete in the business contract area when then have NO international flights on the routes UA flies from SFO, and no alliances? Are they relegated to the “low hanging fruit” and lower end of the business travelers? I’m not meaning to be argumentative, I’m just making conversation. I think this move by DL is as interesting as it is puzzling, with all the factors at work in the Bay Area.


There are plenty of start-ups to mid-sized companies(Lots of Bay Area companies fit in that category) that chose WN as one of their most preferred carriers, in addition to some larger companies that have more lax travel policies for their employees.

But I would say the majority of large multi-national companies don't have WN as their most used carrier, even if they are HQ'd near an airport where WN is the largest carrier. Perfect example of this is Apple.

Going back to one of my original points, this is why I think the goal of SJC becoming a DL focus city isn't solely to compete in the Bay Area, it is to be able to attract customers from across their network by offering nonstop service to the Bay Area. DL knows they won't become the strongest carrier in the Bay Area and probably not even SJC, but if they are able to offer nonstop flights from large tech hubs like SEA, BOS, RDU, AUS, e.t.c to Silicon Valley, that makes them much more appealing in each of those respective areas.


Agreed. It might be a good opportunity for DL, SJC and it’s passengers, and lots of business travelers.
 
ackerber
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Tue Jun 11, 2019 9:02 am

To me it seems like Delta's strategy is to build a point-to-point business traveler network - one that is distinct from its traditional hub-and spoke network.

Consider having non-stop service between all of

LAX, SJC, SEA, AUS, BNA, RDU, LGA/JFK, BOS

My guess is that for many business travelers in these cities (particularly high tech ones), this network, plus the Delta hubs, covers a huge amount of their demand.

If you want to make the network even more attractive to these flyers, throw in at least one flight to AMS/CDG, plus maybe one per day morning in/evening out flights to e.g. ORD, DEN, DCA/IAD, DFW, IAH from these places. Isn't this going to cover 90% of where the average business traveler in these cities needs to go, non-stop?

Seems like a great strategy to attract business travelers in a bunch of big or growing cities.
 
reggiet
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:27 pm

jbs2886 wrote:
msyjay wrote:
jagraham wrote:

The problem with Delta is that they are ignoring the most important opinions in the world - that of a.net posters. Obviously Delta's decision making is horribly deficient.

Back to the real world, from the Delta S19 Departures thread https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtop ... s&start=50
MSY is the 24th largest non-hub station by departures, with 25 daily departures

Image

So unfortunately MSY has to wait a bit before getting promoted. Proximity to ATL doesn't help either.




By no means should MSY come to being close to being called a focus city. But why aren't focus cities shearly not based off of departures. I can see how BNA fits, but why are AUS and SJC defined as focus cities if the likes of ORD, DCA, SFO have more departues


As eloquently explained by jetatlanta, above, focus city is not really about the number of departures. Instead it’s about where DL is focused on growth. People are reading WAY too much into defining a focus city.


This :checkmark:
Reggie in Austin
 
CV880
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Tue Jun 11, 2019 10:30 pm

If they do any Hawaii from SJC, I would expect it to be the relocation of the SFO-HNL flight it operates seasonally during peak times. Otherwise DL would be going head to head with AS, HA and WN which I can’t imagine is a winning proposition outside of peak travel.
77H[/quote]

DL would just be re-introducing service that it already had from SJC & SFO to HNL separately under the names of DL, NW, & WA. WA had service from SJC and all 3 had service from SFO.....now down to 0 flights except one around Xmas-New Years. DL & NW also ground handled HA for years from the time that HA started flying to SFO.
 
Gulfstream500
Posts: 382
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:33 pm

spinotter wrote:
tphuang wrote:
spinotter wrote:

But the future demographics of AUS, SJC, and BNA are much more promising than those of MSY or TPA, don't you agree? Grow where growth is.


There is a serious problem with that type of thinking because that's where everyone is going. It's funny that DL makes all of their money in places that are not techie and great growth cities like DTW/MSP/SLC, but when it comes to expansion, it goes for the same spot where all the LCCs go or dominate. And it has much higher cost levels. CVG might not be a sexy location, but I bet it's much more profitable than all the domestic projects they have going.

Calling SJC a focus city is a joke. They want to get into that kind of fare war environment vs WN and AS?


I think it's geographical relevance. DL is the weakest of the US4 in Texas, so they have to do something there. Pitiful in SFO so have to seek relevance somehow - not in OAK, methinks! BNA is an outlier, but who knows how much it may grow. At least DL is looking over other cities, unlike UA/AA! Go DL!


The idea of the post is that SJC will not hit the size of LAS or TPA - in terms of passenger count - within the next year (100% growth in one year is unheard of, unless you are Frontier in CLE).

If we're talking about focus cities being the largest airport in the region, then this definition would be correct.

Thinking about it, if this is their definition of focus city, then place like PIT, MCO, TPA, and LAS all should defintely be next in line.
Thinking of a good signature is hard...
 
umichman
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:24 am

kc135topboom wrote:
I wish DL would come back to DFW. All we can do right now from DFW is SLT or ATL direct on DL, plus Delta Connection. Years ago when DL was #2 at DFW, I would fly them everywhere, BOS, JFK, ATL, SFO, LAX, SEA, even HNL. Now I'm stuck with AA, and they suck. Or I fly DL and connect through ATL or SLT to get to where I'm going.


Might want to check the schedule again as DL is currently all mainline on DFW-DTW (in addition to DL Connection to MSP and JFK). Both MSP and JFK will be getting some mainline flights as well as they take more A220 deliveries. Also, it's SLC, not SLT.
 
N649DL
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Wed Jun 12, 2019 1:51 am

Nola wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
DFW in 04 was a medium sized city, with DL being a distant number two, too many RJs, and an airline industry in disarray.

In retrospect with the growth of Texas and the metroplex, Delta could have had a spot there akin to AA at ORD. They just needed to ride out the bad years and start upguaging.

But that’s ancient history at this point.
AA is too big now...And it might’ve not been worth the fight anyway.


DL didn’t have the money to fight at DFW. They also didn’t have another hub that was co spidered expendable. The closure of DFW and overnight fleet reshuffle was Grinstein’s last gasp before filing off bankruptcy.


Rumor has it that DL had two options in their financial playbook at the time in the mid-2000s to dump a hub and it was between SLC and DFW. They chose to keep SLC.

I agree that it's Marketing fluff to brand AUS / BNA / SJC as "Focus Cities" whereas I think long-term LAS and MCO are statistically already there to retain that status. RDU and CVG are also true focus cities (by definition) as well, with CVG a borderline hub since they've beefed it up in the last year or two. I'd wish there was another term to separate the two such as "Entry-Level Focus City" vs. "Focus City."
 
jetlanta
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:34 am

Gulfstream500 wrote:
Other airports that should be considered Delta focus cities by having Nashville service as the minimum:

LAS: DL has TWICE as much service there as they do in BNA
TPA: still twice as much as BNA
MCO: THREE times as much service as BNA (and they have more non-hub destinations as they do hub flights.
MSY: about 200k more passengers per year than BNA

So... why aren’t these focus cities?

RDU I can understand. CVG is most definitely a focus city. BOS has most always been a hub.

But BNA and SJC? They have less traffic than a whole lot of non-focus cities


Because they are primarily destinations. Focus Cities are markets where the Delta wants to be the premier business airline. The types of customers that Delta is targeting live in places like AUS, BNA, SJC, BOS, NYC, LAX, SEA, ATL but they travel to LAS, TPA, MCO and MSY. Does that make sense?
 
jetlanta
Posts: 1651
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:38 am

N649DL wrote:
Nola wrote:
jfklganyc wrote:
DFW in 04 was a medium sized city, with DL being a distant number two, too many RJs, and an airline industry in disarray.

In retrospect with the growth of Texas and the metroplex, Delta could have had a spot there akin to AA at ORD. They just needed to ride out the bad years and start upguaging.

But that’s ancient history at this point.
AA is too big now...And it might’ve not been worth the fight anyway.


DL didn’t have the money to fight at DFW. They also didn’t have another hub that was co spidered expendable. The closure of DFW and overnight fleet reshuffle was Grinstein’s last gasp before filing off bankruptcy.


Rumor has it that DL had two options in their financial playbook at the time in the mid-2000s to dump a hub and it was between SLC and DFW. They chose to keep SLC.

I agree that it's Marketing fluff to brand AUS / BNA / SJC as "Focus Cities" whereas I think long-term LAS and MCO are statistically already there to retain that status. RDU and CVG are also true focus cities (by definition) as well, with CVG a borderline hub since they've beefed it up in the last year or two. I'd wish there was another term to separate the two such as "Entry-Level Focus City" vs. "Focus City."


This is more than a rumor. This is absolutely true.
 
Fargo
Posts: 810
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Wed Jun 12, 2019 2:50 am

jetlanta wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
Other airports that should be considered Delta focus cities by having Nashville service as the minimum:

LAS: DL has TWICE as much service there as they do in BNA
TPA: still twice as much as BNA
MCO: THREE times as much service as BNA (and they have more non-hub destinations as they do hub flights.
MSY: about 200k more passengers per year than BNA

So... why aren’t these focus cities?

RDU I can understand. CVG is most definitely a focus city. BOS has most always been a hub.

But BNA and SJC? They have less traffic than a whole lot of non-focus cities


Because they are primarily destinations. Focus Cities are markets where the Delta wants to be the premier business airline. The types of customers that Delta is targeting live in places like AUS, BNA, SJC, BOS, NYC, LAX, SEA, ATL but they travel to LAS, TPA, MCO and MSY. Does that make sense?


IMO, focus city is the wrong term to use, since there definition doesn’t match up with the traditional definition. It’s unlikely the likes of BNA and SJC will get p2p service, so they will simply be large outstations.
 
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compensateme
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Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Wed Jun 12, 2019 3:05 am

Fargo wrote:
IMO, focus city is the wrong term to use, since there definition doesn’t match up with the traditional definition. It’s unlikely the likes of BNA and SJC will get p2p service, so they will simply be large outstations.


DL has labeled SJC, BNA, AUS, etc. internally as focus cities for quite some time - literally cities they’re focusing on. Definitely not in the traditional sense. Mainly because DL wasn’t expecting this to be dissected on an Internet forum where some guys get their libido juices flowing at the thought of DL hubbing here, focusing there...
We don’t care what your next flight is.
 
ackerber
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:06 pm

Re: Delta transitions BOS to Hub status, names SJC, BNA, and AUS as new focus cities

Wed Jun 12, 2019 4:18 am

jetlanta wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
Other airports that should be considered Delta focus cities by having Nashville service as the minimum:

LAS: DL has TWICE as much service there as they do in BNA
TPA: still twice as much as BNA
MCO: THREE times as much service as BNA (and they have more non-hub destinations as they do hub flights.
MSY: about 200k more passengers per year than BNA

So... why aren’t these focus cities?

RDU I can understand. CVG is most definitely a focus city. BOS has most always been a hub.

But BNA and SJC? They have less traffic than a whole lot of non-focus cities


Because they are primarily destinations. Focus Cities are markets where the Delta wants to be the premier business airline. The types of customers that Delta is targeting live in places like AUS, BNA, SJC, BOS, NYC, LAX, SEA, ATL but they travel to LAS, TPA, MCO and MSY. Does that make sense?



I dont' think business travelers in AUS, BNA, SJC, BOS, NYC, LAX, SEA care much about non-stop flights to LAS, TPA, MCO and MSY. They care about non-stop flights to AUS, BNA, SJC, BOS, NYC, LAX, SEA (plus ATL, MSP, DTW, SLC, plus a flight to europe, plus maybe a few other places like ORD, DCA, DFW)

LAS, TPA, MCO and MSY are leisure heavy markets that are going to continue to have lots of flights to hubs, but I don't think are really part of this "focus" city p2p network for business travellers that Delta wants.
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