https://beatofhawaii.com/trouble-brewin ... -airlines/

According to this article Hawaiian is being forcibly moved to another terminal. How is this possible of their lease isn’t up? And if true what a nightmare for customers!

They didn’t have to swim there. I think people will adapt.

HA write about this themselves in their recently submitted opposition against Haneda slot allocation result.

who really cares. One terminal thru LAX on UA,AA,DL will be jus fine. Who needs to connect from jet blue with so many other choices

According to Hawaiian, “Los Angeles World Airports (LAWA) is blatantly favoring large legacy airlines such as American, Delta and United to the competitive detriment of smaller carriers such as Hawaiian…. Hawaiian’s forced move to the Midfield Satellite Concourse (MSC) will irreparably harm Hawaiian’s operations at LAX.”

If HA can prove it in court they can get an injunction.

Lots of carriers move (or get moved) at major U.S. airports. It's about efficient use of space. U.S. airports taking Federal money (meaning virtually all of them) are obligated to provide facilities on a non-discriminatory basis. That doesn't mean HA with 1% of LAX traffic dictates to AA with 20% of the traffic.

HA isn’t a signatory party, they can be forced to move.

HA does not hold a multi-decade master lease and is essentially month to month, so yes they might be relocated.

Boof02671 wrote:

HA isn’t a signatory party, they can be forced to move.

Signatory carriers can also be moved. Usually the airport covers the cost when they do a forced move.

I'm sure ONT would roll out the red carpet in a heartbeat

@ Passengers on other airlines will not have to change terminals when transiting LAX. - Not true at all.

With the redone business class, better catering, and super friendly service, HA has a far superior on board product compared to AA, UA and others who serve HI and thus little to fear from that angle.

Fact is T5 has hardly been an ideal home for HA with significant day to day ops challenges, so a move could have an upside.

At MSC, HA will not have to contend with limitation of only 2 A330 capable widebody gates at T5 they can access which has limited their schedule flexibility at LAX and also has caused issues with constant tows. Yes MSC facility use fees will be higher (they have not been published yet), though a nicer facility would also allow for things like HA to build lounge ultimately for example as well.

One option I have heard thrown around would be that HA would still be a tenant at one of the CTA terminals (possibly 1.5) where it would process passengers and have its baggage claim while using MSC gates accessed via either link via TBIT rail or ongoing airfield busses that would be running on a constant loop. While less convinent might be less costly

SoCalFlyer wrote:

https://beatofhawaii.com/trouble-brewing-at-lax-for-hawaiian-airlines/

According to this article Hawaiian is being forcibly moved to another terminal. How is this possible of their lease isn’t up? And if true what a nightmare for customers!

Nightmare for customers? They aren’t moving terminals halfway through the boarding process.

In reading the article, it sounds like what is happening to Hawaiian is that they are being moved to the new MSC, which is a remote terminal that will be connected to the main terminal body by a transit or rail system (underneath I would assume) that would bring passengers to the baggage claim.

If that is the case....than that is no different than what happened to Hawaiian at McCaren when LAS moved them from the old Terminal 2 complex to the satellite complex that their flights arrive and depart at now. If anyone has been on a HA Hawaii-LAS flight and arrived at the terminal, you know that it is a hike to the train, and then from the train to the baggage claim. Don't remember how long it took last time I did it, but if it was 20 minutes, I wouldn't be surprised.

Hawaiian barking about moving after having been moved once, I can see how they are not too happy with that. But as mentioned, the airport should be footing the bill for the move if they, indeed, are demanding it. As for operational costs, that can be negotiated out with LAWA as this move is imposed, there are ways around that I would assume.

And a final thought, maybe Hawaiian can break 2 or 3% with the better accessibility to gates for their planes at the new facility.

FlyThiz wrote:

I'm sure ONT would roll out the red carpet in a heartbeat

You beat me to it. They have plenty of gates opened for them, parking and drop off is just there within a few minutes. Though, it all would depend if there is financial viability to move there from LAX.

FlyThiz wrote:

I'm sure ONT would roll out the red carpet in a heartbeat

You beat me to it as well. IIRC, HA served ONT with the trijets and the 767 at one point, and ATA did as well. While I'm sure the (then) population and demographics of the Inland Empire weren't enough to fill those puppies up, I'm thinking that as they continue to take delivery of A321's, that they (might, upon review of the market) start some service to ONT. Be it HNL and connecting onward, and scale growth from there.

My observations, as a resident in the Inland Empire, are that Hawaii is a big tourist destination for a lot of residents of the Inland Empire, my family included. I'd love to forego the 2.5 hour drive to LAX (or longer, with the guaranteed traffic) and just drive 20 minutes to ONT and be on my way. On the east coast, there are several islands in the Caribbean that attract leisure travellers up and down the eastern seaboard, but out west we've really only got Hawaii. I can't tell you how many "Bring Hawaii service to Ontario" comments I've seen on WN's (heavy) advertising on social media. Matter of fact, there was disappointment that we had to connect through NorCal airports to get to Hawaii from SoCal.

The BIG question mark - and I'm sure the dealbreaker, unless I'm corrected by someone on here - is whether or not the I.E. demographics can support and sustain Hawaiian service from ONT.

HA and LAS... Isn't the difference that LAS old terminal 2 was being closed so everybody needed to move.

KanaHawaii wrote:

If that is the case....than that is no different than what happened to Hawaiian at McCaren when LAS moved them from the old Terminal 2 complex to the satellite complex that their flights arrive and depart at now. If anyone has been on a HA Hawaii-LAS flight and arrived at the terminal, you know that it is a hike to the train, and then from the train to the baggage claim. Don't remember how long it took last time I did it, but if it was 20 minutes, I wouldn't be surprised.

D35 to the train to terminal 3 baggage claim is 5-7 minutes tops. TBIT doesn't have a domestic baggage carousel so who know how far customers will have to go to get their bags.

RollerRB211 wrote:

KanaHawaii wrote:

If that is the case....than that is no different than what happened to Hawaiian at McCaren when LAS moved them from the old Terminal 2 complex to the satellite complex that their flights arrive and depart at now. If anyone has been on a HA Hawaii-LAS flight and arrived at the terminal, you know that it is a hike to the train, and then from the train to the baggage claim. Don't remember how long it took last time I did it, but if it was 20 minutes, I wouldn't be surprised.

D35 to the train to terminal 3 baggage claim is 5-7 minutes tops. TBIT doesn't have a domestic baggage carousel so who know how far customers will have to go to get their bags.

Unless they've changed something recently, TBIT actually does have a domestic carousel. EY used it when I worked there as of spring 2018.

KanaHawaii wrote:

In reading the article, it sounds like what is happening to Hawaiian is that they are being moved to the new MSC, which is a remote terminal that will be connected to the main terminal body by a transit or rail system (underneath I would assume) that would bring passengers to the baggage claim.

If that is the case....than that is no different than what happened to Hawaiian at McCaren when LAS moved them from the old Terminal 2 complex to the satellite complex that their flights arrive and depart at now. If anyone has been on a HA Hawaii-LAS flight and arrived at the terminal, you know that it is a hike to the train, and then from the train to the baggage claim. Don't remember how long it took last time I did it, but if it was 20 minutes, I wouldn't be surprised.

Hawaiian barking about moving after having been moved once, I can see how they are not too happy with that. But as mentioned, the airport should be footing the bill for the move if they, indeed, are demanding it. As for operational costs, that can be negotiated out with LAWA as this move is imposed, there are ways around that I would assume.

And a final thought, maybe Hawaiian can break 2 or 3% with the better accessibility to gates for their planes at the new facility.

Rather weak case. If DL, UA and AA can use the D gates at LAS, HA sure can too. T2 was leveled, so everyone had to move. Additionally, the D gates at LAS have far superior services compared to the old T2 and finally, while it is a bit of a hike from the D gates to baggage claim, 20 minutes is an exaggeration.

Just about everyone’s moved at LAX in recent years. HA can get over it.

joeycapps wrote:

The BIG question mark - and I'm sure the dealbreaker, unless I'm corrected by someone on here - is whether or not the I.E. demographics can support and sustain Hawaiian service from ONT.

The IE sends a large number of visitors to Hawaii.

From the Hawaii 2017 Visitor Statistics, table #19 (2018 has not been posted yet):
https://dbedt.hawaii.gov/visitor/visitor-research/

TOP SOURCES OF HAWAII VISITORS IN 2017 BY METRO AREA:
1 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim CA 647,295
2 San Francisco-Oakland-Hayward CA 490,161
3 Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue WA 355,913
4 San Diego-Carlsbad CA 200,980
5 San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara CA 200,561
6 Portland-Vancouver-Hillsboro OR-WA 178,586
7 New York-Newark-Jersey City NY-NJ-PA 176,143
8 Sacramento--Roseville--Arden-Arcade CA 141,483
9 Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale AZ 137,537
10 Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario CA 130,704

many321 wrote:

FlyThiz wrote:

I'm sure ONT would roll out the red carpet in a heartbeat

You beat me to it. They have plenty of gates opened for them, parking and drop off is just there within a few minutes. Though, it all would depend if there is financial viability to move there from LAX.

Except when you get off the plane your in Ontario! Much further than the MSC!

The BIG question mark - and I'm sure the dealbreaker, unless I'm corrected by someone on here - is whether or not the I.E. demographics can support and sustain Hawaiian service from ONT.

True, but you can also toss in a lot of us who live in northern and eastern Orange County, as well. The drive to ONT is far better (usually) than the nightmare drive to LAX. ONT might poach a lot of fliers from the OC. Hopefully, HA will at least look into this.

No need to go to ONT and open another airport. Just add another flight at LGB if LAX becomes too much of a burden for them.

However at the end of the day, HA wont (cant) walkaway from LAX as they know for bulk of the huge LA market, LAX is the optimal airport.

UPlog wrote:

No need to go to ONT and open another airport. Just add another flight at LGB if LAX becomes too much of a burden for them.

However at the end of the day, HA wont (cant) walkaway from LAX as they know for bulk of the huge LA market, LAX is the optimal airport.

I agree. If the economics don't favor ONT, they could get their small fleet of A321s and just set up shop at LGB, and perhaps gets some A220s and set shop at SNA.

DarthLobster wrote:

Just about everyone’s moved at LAX in recent years. HA can get over it.

They're complaining about having to move again after being moved before and was told they won't need to

Hawaiian is trying to leverage its LAX move in its objection to the HND route awards. Hawaiian argues that it should be granted the HND authority granted to AA in the recent award because it is being treated unfairly by LAWA.

Talk about reaching. It’s like telling the teacher that they must give me an “A” on my paper simply because someone stole my lunch money.

FATFlyer wrote:

joeycapps wrote:

The BIG question mark - and I'm sure the dealbreaker, unless I'm corrected by someone on here - is whether or not the I.E. demographics can support and sustain Hawaiian service from ONT.

The IE sends a large number of visitors to Hawaii.

From the Hawaii 2017 Visitor Statistics, table #19 (2018 has not been posted yet):
https://dbedt.hawaii.gov/visitor/visitor-research/

TOP SOURCES OF HAWAII VISITORS IN 2017 BY METRO AREA:
1 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim CA 647,295
2 San Francisco-Oakland-Hayward CA 490,161
3 Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue WA 355,913
4 San Diego-Carlsbad CA 200,980
5 San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara CA 200,561
6 Portland-Vancouver-Hillsboro OR-WA 178,586
7 New York-Newark-Jersey City NY-NJ-PA 176,143
8 Sacramento--Roseville--Arden-Arcade CA 141,483
9 Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale AZ 137,537
10 Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario CA 130,704

From the 1. Anaheim being in the Northern area of the OC, is far closer to ONT than LAX, so split a third of those numbers from LA/Long Beach/Anaheim( around 215,600), and add them to the Riverside-San Bernadino numbers (346,304) then it begins to look interesting.

If HA was so concerned about their terminal location at LAX they should have included that in the agreement when they sold their ownership stake in T2.

Are there any stats on HA’s O&D vs connecting traffic at LAX?

I really don’t see the big deal other than HA moving from a run down facility to a brand NEW facility? Yeah I’m sure that won’t go down well.

EK413

MIflyer12 wrote:

According to Hawaiian, “Los Angeles World Airports (LAWA) is blatantly favoring large legacy airlines such as American, Delta and United to the competitive detriment of smaller carriers such as Hawaiian…. Hawaiian’s forced move to the Midfield Satellite Concourse (MSC) will irreparably harm Hawaiian’s operations at LAX.”

If HA can prove it in court they can get an injunction.

Lots of carriers move (or get moved) at major U.S. airports. It's about efficient use of space. U.S. airports taking Federal money (meaning virtually all of them) are obligated to provide facilities on a non-discriminatory basis. That doesn't mean HA with 1% of LAX traffic dictates to AA with 20% of the traffic.

SO? Who did they expect to give up space or Move to satisfy Hawaiian? Everybody Needs more room It's no secret that LAX is stretched pretty Thin!

FATFlyer wrote:

joeycapps wrote:

The BIG question mark - and I'm sure the dealbreaker, unless I'm corrected by someone on here - is whether or not the I.E. demographics can support and sustain Hawaiian service from ONT.

The IE sends a large number of visitors to Hawaii.

From the Hawaii 2017 Visitor Statistics, table #19 (2018 has not been posted yet):
https://dbedt.hawaii.gov/visitor/visitor-research/

TOP SOURCES OF HAWAII VISITORS IN 2017 BY METRO AREA:
1 Los Angeles-Long Beach-Anaheim CA 647,295
2 San Francisco-Oakland-Hayward CA 490,161
3 Seattle-Tacoma-Bellevue WA 355,913
4 San Diego-Carlsbad CA 200,980
5 San Jose-Sunnyvale-Santa Clara CA 200,561
6 Portland-Vancouver-Hillsboro OR-WA 178,586
7 New York-Newark-Jersey City NY-NJ-PA 176,143
8 Sacramento--Roseville--Arden-Arcade CA 141,483
9 Phoenix-Mesa-Scottsdale AZ 137,537
10 Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario CA 130,704

They would need to beat WN to the punch. It's only a matter of time before WN does ONT to Hawaii.

One of the benefits of LAX’s now antiquated design is the short curb to gate time/walk. Moving to the center field concourse adds a much longer walk and TBIT security (I don’t recall if this is being expanded or altered - I’m sure someone will clarify). They’re probably concerned about the inconvenience that this will cause passengers and HAs operations (delays due to late passengers/bag unloading, etc).

FATFlyer wrote:

joeycapps wrote:

The BIG question mark - and I'm sure the dealbreaker, unless I'm corrected by someone on here - is whether or not the I.E. demographics can support and sustain Hawaiian service from ONT.

The IE sends a large number of visitors to Hawaii.

From the Hawaii 2017 Visitor Statistics, table #19 (2018 has not been posted yet):
https://dbedt.hawaii.gov/visitor/visitor-research/
[u][b]
10 Riverside-San Bernardino-Ontario CA 130,704

I'm impressed, but not surprised that we made it in the top 10. Truth of the matter is, as the population in the IE (continues) to grow, I'm sure there's a chance we can work our way up the list. Nice find nonetheless, thanks!

As mentioned earlier, some OC traffic can be counted too. I didn't even think of that. Riverside County alone is growing - and has grown substantially - since HA's last ONT presence.

WN732 wrote:

They would need to beat WN to the punch. It's only a matter of time before WN does ONT to Hawaii.

The hope by many, myself included, is that we can get some Hawaii service at ONT. Other than B6, I don't particularly go out of my way to fly any specific carrier. Of my trips with Hawaiian, I can honestly say I've never had a bad experience with them and would welcome them to ONT, and would certainly choose them over any other carrier... If WN beats them, then that's that, I'll be flying WN. At 6'6 and --- pounds, the lack of business class has been a reason I don't seek out WN, along with the fact that they just don't fly nonstop to where I need to go.

We need HNL service at ONT. WN, HA, AS, hell even B6, if you're reading this, we're waiting! Lol.

LAXBUR wrote:

One of the benefits of LAX’s now antiquated design is the short curb to gate time/walk. Moving to the center field concourse adds a much longer walk and TBIT security (I don’t recall if this is being expanded or altered - I’m sure someone will clarify). They’re probably concerned about the inconvenience that this will cause passengers and HAs operations (delays due to late passengers/bag unloading, etc).

If you don’t like the TSA checkpoint at TBIT just use the one at T4. Its much shorter in the evening when TBIT is a zoo. You are free to enter the secure area at any checkpoint at LAX the day of your flight. If you like the restaurants at T1 you could eat there then leave to go to another terminal and reenter there.

strfyr51 wrote:

MIflyer12 wrote:

According to Hawaiian, “Los Angeles World Airports (LAWA) is blatantly favoring large legacy airlines such as American, Delta and United to the competitive detriment of smaller carriers such as Hawaiian…. Hawaiian’s forced move to the Midfield Satellite Concourse (MSC) will irreparably harm Hawaiian’s operations at LAX.”

If HA can prove it in court they can get an injunction.

Lots of carriers move (or get moved) at major U.S. airports. It's about efficient use of space. U.S. airports taking Federal money (meaning virtually all of them) are obligated to provide facilities on a non-discriminatory basis. That doesn't mean HA with 1% of LAX traffic dictates to AA with 20% of the traffic.

SO? Who did they expect to give up space or Move to satisfy Hawaiian? Everybody Needs more room It's no secret that LAX is stretched pretty Thin!

I don't think HA has a legitimate complaint about being asked to move. LAWA can frame the request to move in the context of efficient allocation of limited gate resources. (question's question about O&D vs. connecting traffic is a good one.)

I forgot my reading glasses and didn’t see, but did it say which terminal they would use, I’m using Hawaiian in September, if anyone know thank you!!!

EK413 wrote:

I really don’t see the big deal other than HA moving from a run down facility to a brand NEW facility? Yeah I’m sure that won’t go down well.

T5 had been upgraded a lot in the past few years. Much nicer than where they came from (T2).

Please don't forget that a large percentage of ONT's traffic comes from eastern LA county. This is evident by the China Airlines flight that is mainly filled by San Gabriel Valley residents. ONT is our airport too and we want service to Hawaii!!

BGS91762 wrote:

Please don't forget that a large percentage of ONT's traffic comes from eastern LA county. This is evident by the China Airlines flight that is mainly filled by San Gabriel Valley residents. ONT is our airport too and we want service to Hawaii!!

Don't forget the Nothern OC folks. They're doing their part.

aklrno wrote:

LAXBUR wrote:

One of the benefits of LAX’s now antiquated design is the short curb to gate time/walk. Moving to the center field concourse adds a much longer walk and TBIT security (I don’t recall if this is being expanded or altered - I’m sure someone will clarify). They’re probably concerned about the inconvenience that this will cause passengers and HAs operations (delays due to late passengers/bag unloading, etc).

If you don’t like the TSA checkpoint at TBIT just use the one at T4. Its much shorter in the evening when TBIT is a zoo. You are free to enter the secure area at any checkpoint at LAX the day of your flight. If you like the restaurants at T1 you could eat there then leave to go to another terminal and reenter there.

lol. Most people won’t be savvy enough to figure that out unless HA openly suggests it. And before someone says, “that’s their problem.” No, it isn’t. An airline will be impacted if their passengers are late or not showing up after checking in. I don’t know if this is HAs concern but going from small “convenient” T5 to large TBIT at a very congested airport is a reasonable worry.

LAXBUR wrote:

aklrno wrote:

LAXBUR wrote:

One of the benefits of LAX’s now antiquated design is the short curb to gate time/walk. Moving to the center field concourse adds a much longer walk and TBIT security (I don’t recall if this is being expanded or altered - I’m sure someone will clarify). They’re probably concerned about the inconvenience that this will cause passengers and HAs operations (delays due to late passengers/bag unloading, etc).

If you don’t like the TSA checkpoint at TBIT just use the one at T4. Its much shorter in the evening when TBIT is a zoo. You are free to enter the secure area at any checkpoint at LAX the day of your flight. If you like the restaurants at T1 you could eat there then leave to go to another terminal and reenter there.

lol. Most people won’t be savvy enough to figure that out unless HA openly suggests it.

I agree. It was thanks to Airliners.net that I knew about T4 and TBIT, and told my family members who leave the country to flow suit, since its far better than being stuck in those crazy lines in TBIT.

MIflyer12 wrote:

Lots of carriers move (or get moved) at major U.S. airports. It's about efficient use of space. U.S. airports taking Federal money (meaning virtually all of them) are obligated to provide facilities on a non-discriminatory basis. That doesn't mean HA with 1% of LAX traffic dictates to AA with 20% of the traffic.

Completely agree with you on this. Equal access and no discrimination is a must, but that does't mean "I can get what I want or I'll cry foul"

MIflyer12 wrote:

According to Hawaiian, “Los Angeles World Airports (LAWA) is blatantly favoring large legacy airlines such as American, Delta and United to the competitive detriment of smaller carriers such as Hawaiian…. Hawaiian’s forced move to the Midfield Satellite Concourse (MSC) will irreparably harm Hawaiian’s operations at LAX.”

There are several carriers whose passengers have to check-in at a whole different building and find their way to the actual Terminal were their flight is departing from. There are several carriers landing from foreign countries whose passengers have to be processed at other Terminals because of FIS.

Hawaiian has to be really careful what to wish for.
if you want to be treated the same way as AA, they I'll guess HA will be happy to spread its flights across 3 diferent terminals, One of them (nest) being remote and only accesible via shuttle bus. Or like United, split across T7 and 8 while its Star partners (as HA claims with B6) are at 6 and TBIT

Trk1 wrote:

who really cares. One terminal thru LAX on UA,AA,DL will be jus fine. Who needs to connect from jet blue with so many other choices

"So many"? Pray, tell. I am all ears.

LAXBUR wrote:

One of the benefits of LAX’s now antiquated design is the short curb to gate time/walk. Moving to the center field concourse adds a much longer walk and TBIT security (I don’t recall if this is being expanded or altered - I’m sure someone will clarify). They’re probably concerned about the inconvenience that this will cause passengers and HAs operations (delays due to late passengers/bag unloading, etc).

But it does add a much nicer terminal with seamless international connections.

diverdave wrote:

T5 had been upgraded a lot in the past few years. Much nicer than where they came from (T2).

Believe me- this is not true at all. I flew through T5 with B6 last month and the facility has significantly regressed since DL left. Furthermore, right before HA moved from 2-5, LAWA completed a pretty large scale remodel of T2.

On a side note, I don’t understand HA’s complaint about a loss of connections. I can’t find any data, but it seems highly unlikely they are getting any significant feed from anyone in T5. Even B6 can’t be that substantial of a partner at LAX, especially with HA service to BOS, JFK, LGB now. If anything, HA will benefit more from closer proximity to their international partners in the MSC than they would from an extended stay in T5.

Seems ONT heard something over the grapevine and look what they posted on their social media.

https://twitter.com/flyONT/status/1135958063146422272

aklrno wrote:

If you don’t like the TSA checkpoint at TBIT just use the one at T4. Its much shorter in the evening when TBIT is a zoo. You are free to enter the secure area at any checkpoint at LAX the day of your flight. If you like the restaurants at T1 you could eat there then leave to go to another terminal and reenter there.

Perhaps things have changed, but in the past the (non-TSA) staff checking boarding passes at T4 security have turned away those departing from other terminals.

Admittedly this was two years ago -- but when connecting from CX to an AA flight departing from T5, we were turned away from T4 security even though we were heading to the lounge in T4. Had to schlep to T5, clear security, and walk back to T4 in the secure area.