seansasLCY
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IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 1:45 pm

BA/IAG are said to be deciding between the Airbus A220 and Embraer E2 to replace BA Cityflyer's fleet.

According to the article below the decision will be made in the coming months. The order would be for at least 26 aircraft.

https://www.aerotelegraph.com/iag-looki ... -cityflyer
 
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frigatebird
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:08 pm

The article mentions the E2-190, but not which A220 variant. Is the -300 suitable for LCY ops?

This battle will be hard fought. The E2 should have an advantage with Citiflyer already operating E-jets. Will be interesting to see how much Airbus can discount the A220.
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santos
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:14 pm

The article says BACF has a fleet of E195 which is wrong, E190
E190 is certified for LCY along with the E170
A220-100 is also LCY certified, the larger variant isn’t.
 
JamesCousins
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:18 pm

frigatebird wrote:
The article mentions the E2-190, but not which A220 variant. Is the -300 suitable for LCY ops?

This battle will be hard fought. The E2 should have an advantage with Citiflyer already operating E-jets. Will be interesting to see how much Airbus can discount the A220.


And arguably to a greater degree whether BA wants the extra range and lift of the A220?
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:26 pm

santos wrote:
The article says BACF has a fleet of E195 which is wrong, E190
E190 is certified for LCY along with the E170
A220-100 is also LCY certified, the larger variant isn’t.


If memory serves me right, the A220-300 is too big, takes in too much valuable ramp space. Or is it something with the deep dive angle?

The A220 will look nice in BA colors.
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Dutchy
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:27 pm

JamesCousins wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
The article mentions the E2-190, but not which A220 variant. Is the -300 suitable for LCY ops?

This battle will be hard fought. The E2 should have an advantage with Citiflyer already operating E-jets. Will be interesting to see how much Airbus can discount the A220.


And arguably to a greater degree whether BA wants the extra range and lift of the A220?


They might be looking at a bigger fleet for BA, replacing the A319 and A320 (if the A220-500 gets build).
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
seansasLCY
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 2:38 pm

Dutchy wrote:
santos wrote:
The article says BACF has a fleet of E195 which is wrong, E190
E190 is certified for LCY along with the E170
A220-100 is also LCY certified, the larger variant isn’t.


If memory serves me right, the A220-300 is too big, takes in too much valuable ramp space. Or is it something with the deep dive angle?

The A220 will look nice in BA colors.


LCY have said that they will aim to get the A220-300 certificated for ops at LCY.

"Liam McKay, the airport's corporate affairs director, said it hoped to certify the larger A220-300 for use" https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/busi ... 90795.html

The advantage the A220 has is that BA could replace the A318 and operate direct to JFK and possibly other long haul routes.
 
Breathe
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:18 pm

Dutchy wrote:
JamesCousins wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
The article mentions the E2-190, but not which A220 variant. Is the -300 suitable for LCY ops?

This battle will be hard fought. The E2 should have an advantage with Citiflyer already operating E-jets. Will be interesting to see how much Airbus can discount the A220.


And arguably to a greater degree whether BA wants the extra range and lift of the A220?


They might be looking at a bigger fleet for BA, replacing the A319 and A320 (if the A220-500 gets build).


Could IAG/BA kill two birds with one stone by having a fleet type that they could use at mainline as well as Cityflyer/LCY?
 
Armodeen
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:23 pm

This is an important sale for the E2. BACF have a good number of E170/90's at the moment and the E2 could use a boost. Embraer must have the upper hand as not only are they an existing customer, but they also operate the smaller version too, while the A220 is much larger.
 
8herveg
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:50 pm

Weren't the BA CityFlyer aircraft delivered from 2009? 10 years ago? Surely too early to be making an order for replacement aircraft? Won't they have another 10 years left in them?
 
Amiga500
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:51 pm

JamesCousins wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
The article mentions the E2-190, but not which A220 variant. Is the -300 suitable for LCY ops?

This battle will be hard fought. The E2 should have an advantage with Citiflyer already operating E-jets. Will be interesting to see how much Airbus can discount the A220.


And arguably to a greater degree whether BA wants the extra range and lift of the A220?


Payload-range (for both aircraft) out of LCY is quite different from the poster figures (which will all be off a big runway).

The longest flight I can find out of LCY is to Santorini, at around 2,600 km. Its currently ran by city flyer, but easily within the range of the E2 and CSeries.

I see Embraer are expecting 190-E2 to have an LCY range of around 2,200 nm. CS100 is supposedly able to do 2350 nm out of LCY.

Marginal differences. Don't know if it would differentiate any important markets or not; I suppose if a CS300 can do LCY, then that is a real differentiator with a capacity increase of something like 40%.
 
TC957
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 3:56 pm

Runway performance out of LCY will have a big influence in this decision.
 
VV
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:05 pm

TC957 wrote:
Runway performance out of LCY will have a big influence in this decision.


More specifically the landing performance.
And obviously, OEW is important.

Cityflyer flies short distances.
 
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LockheedBBD
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:11 pm

I think this is Boeing Brasil Commercial's order to lose.
 
JamesCousins
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:25 pm

8herveg wrote:
Weren't the BA CityFlyer aircraft delivered from 2009? 10 years ago? Surely too early to be making an order for replacement aircraft? Won't they have another 10 years left in them?


They must rack up far higher cycles on though compared to even an A320, especially on short 1 hour hops with fast turnarounds. I imagine it will be a gradual replacement too, and the 2 types (whether that be E & E2 or E & A220) will operate side by side for a little while
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Eurowingsa320
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:28 pm

They could use the a220-300 at MAN,EDI,STN If they choose to expand those bases and base aircraft there during the weekdays and not just weekends
 
Someone83
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:28 pm

Does LCY actually have enough ramp space for a fleet of only A220-100s?
 
Arion640
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:46 pm

LockheedBBD wrote:
I think this is Boeing Brasil Commercial's order to lose.


I think so too. I think the A220 is a little on the large and heavy end for BA’s LCY ops.
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VSMUT
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 4:47 pm

I'm guessing they are ditching the 76 seaters, since they are considering the A220? They only have 6 of those. Alternatively, the E2 stands a much better chance if a smaller type is needed.

8herveg wrote:
Weren't the BA CityFlyer aircraft delivered from 2009? 10 years ago? Surely too early to be making an order for replacement aircraft? Won't they have another 10 years left in them?


Not just that, they ordered 3 more just last year that are yet to be delivered.
 
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:03 pm

seansasLCY wrote:

LCY have said that they will aim to get the A220-300 certificated for ops at LCY.

The advantage the A220 has is that BA could replace the A318 and operate direct to JFK and possibly other long haul routes.

Replace the A318, yes! But, direct to JFK, I doubt very much.
 
VV
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:13 pm

seansasLCY wrote:
...

LCY have said that they will aim to get the A220-300 certificated for ops at LCY.

"Liam McKay, the airport's corporate affairs director, said it hoped to certify the larger A220-300 for use" https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/busi ... 90795.html

The advantage the A220 has is that BA could replace the A318 and operate direct to JFK and possibly other long haul routes.



CS300 at LCY? Are you kidding? It is not going to happen. Full stop.
 
TObound
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:19 pm

I hope for A221s. Expect it'll be E2-190s. Would be amazing to see more TATL from LCY.
 
TObound
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:22 pm

TedToToe wrote:
seansasLCY wrote:

LCY have said that they will aim to get the A220-300 certificated for ops at LCY.

The advantage the A220 has is that BA could replace the A318 and operate direct to JFK and possibly other long haul routes.

Replace the A318, yes! But, direct to JFK, I doubt very much.


Bombardier has demonstrated this already:

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... y-new-york
 
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:35 pm

LockheedBBD wrote:
I think this is Boeing Brasil Commercial's order to lose.


It's more of the a220s order to lose considering that as the cseries decisions were made with LCY in mind.
 
YYZYYT
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:43 pm

8herveg wrote:
Weren't the BA CityFlyer aircraft delivered from 2009? 10 years ago? Surely too early to be making an order for replacement aircraft? Won't they have another 10 years left in them?


No problem - go A220, the 2009 build aircraft will be ready for replacement by the time production ramps up! :duck:

But seriously, I can see both arguments here - I think it will depend on the bigger picture, A220 across the group could be a great fit, but if this is for BACF only, then I'm inclined to think that E2 has the advantage.

.
 
Andy33
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 5:57 pm

seansasLCY wrote:
The advantage the A220 has is that BA could replace the A318 and operate direct to JFK and possibly other long haul routes.

I doubt that they would choose to replace the entire BACF fleet with A220s rather than E2s solely so they have an aircraft to replace the solitary A318 used for LCY-JFK, which is in any case operated by BA Mainline not BACF.
 
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:08 pm

Marginal differences. Don't know if it would differentiate any important markets or not; I suppose if a CS300 can do LCY, then that is a real differentiator with a capacity increase of something like 40%.


But Cityflyer are scope limited at present.
Present rules state that all aircraft 100 seats or more shall be operated by BA Mainline. That is why the E190 at Cityflyer is a special sub type only certified for 98 seats. The Avros had an excemption as they were already flying when the rule was introiduced.
 
SEU
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:10 pm

This is Boeing's to lose I feel. It depends how much the extra the A220 can give BA vs the cost of switching the entire fleet. Of course they can also be used in the mainline fleet for BA main fleet.
 
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:25 pm

TObound wrote:
Bombardier has demonstrated this already:

I suppose the "representative payload" corresponded to the 42-pax configuration mentioned. However, Leeham now says.....

https://leehamnews.com/2019/05/30/airbu ... sed-range/

Quote:
"If we introduce the Airbus rules combined with the extra 5,000lb (2,268kg) to 139,000lb MTOW which will be available from 2H 2020 we get a range with the usual A220-100 standard 2 class seating of 108 seats of 3,800nm.

Now it will have an MTOW of 139,000lb (63,049kg) from 2H 2020. Then it flies longer than any other Airbus single-aisle except for the A319neo and the A321LR. They both fly another 100-200nm with the same rules, but only when equipped with extra belly tanks."



http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=LCY-JFK&MS=wls&DU=nm


Tristarsteve wrote:
But Cityflyer are scope limited at present.

3,800nm may still fall short of LCY-JFK in real world conditions, although that is a very impressive range if Leeham is to be believed. Not sure if the A221 could tank enough fuel out of LCY to cross the pond but deleting 8 seats to stay within scope limits may just be the clincher.
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SEU
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:30 pm

Devilfish wrote:
TObound wrote:
Bombardier has demonstrated this already:

I suppose the "representative payload" corresponded to the 42-pax configuration mentioned. However, Leeham now says.....

https://leehamnews.com/2019/05/30/airbu ... sed-range/

Quote:
"If we introduce the Airbus rules combined with the extra 5,000lb (2,268kg) to 139,000lb MTOW which will be available from 2H 2020 we get a range with the usual A220-100 standard 2 class seating of 108 seats of 3,800nm.

Now it will have an MTOW of 139,000lb (63,049kg) from 2H 2020. Then it flies longer than any other Airbus single-aisle except for the A319neo and the A321LR. They both fly another 100-200nm with the same rules, but only when equipped with extra belly tanks."



http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=LCY-JFK&MS=wls&DU=nm

3,800nm may still fall short of LCY-JFK in real world conditions, although that is a very impressive range if Leeham is to be believed. Not sure if the A221 could tank enough fuel out of LCY to cross the pond but deleting 8 seats to stay within scope limits may just be the clincher.


They will probably do the same as they do now with the 318 - stopover in Ireland on the way there.
 
flyingcello
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 6:50 pm

Let's hope it's for the A220...and a gateway order into IAG.

The A220 could potentially displace the 319s at BA/VY/IB...and all the wings will hopefully continue to be built in Belfast!
 
marcogr12
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:06 pm

The A220-300 is a fab aircraft and according to AirBaltic it has stellar performance on short and long missions..It can fly 7hrs straight with full payload...I think the E2-jets are a little lighter though when compared, but they have less range..But does BA really need the range for its LCY missions? Unless they intend to replace the A319s of their fleet with A220-300s, i don't see why they should go for the latter..And even if they flew them from LGW or MAN to the Canaries or Cyprus the E2-195s can still make it with full payload..Also,we shouldn't forget the short-field takeoff performance..How do both aircraft fare there..? Plus the E-jets have the beloved 2+2 config..Tough choice
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giblets
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 7:28 pm

In terms of ramp size, LCY has an approved expansion plan, to increase movements from 70,000 to 110,000 including 7 new parking stands. Taxiway will be the entire length of the runway (which is not being extended).

This could be one of the prime reasons for BA Cityflier to up their size?!


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TObound
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:50 pm

Devilfish wrote:
TObound wrote:
Bombardier has demonstrated this already:

I suppose the "representative payload" corresponded to the 42-pax configuration mentioned. However, Leeham now says.....

https://leehamnews.com/2019/05/30/airbu ... sed-range/

Quote:
"If we introduce the Airbus rules combined with the extra 5,000lb (2,268kg) to 139,000lb MTOW which will be available from 2H 2020 we get a range with the usual A220-100 standard 2 class seating of 108 seats of 3,800nm.

Now it will have an MTOW of 139,000lb (63,049kg) from 2H 2020. Then it flies longer than any other Airbus single-aisle except for the A319neo and the A321LR. They both fly another 100-200nm with the same rules, but only when equipped with extra belly tanks."



http://www.gcmap.com/mapui?P=LCY-JFK&MS=wls&DU=nm


Tristarsteve wrote:
But Cityflyer are scope limited at present.

3,800nm may still fall short of LCY-JFK in real world conditions, although that is a very impressive range if Leeham is to be believed. Not sure if the A221 could tank enough fuel out of LCY to cross the pond but deleting 8 seats to stay within scope limits may just be the clincher.


BBD did that demonstration in 2017, before Airbus bought the program. So it was using BBD's rules at the time (heaving pax weight, higher enroute reserve, etc.). And it was done with a premium config of 40J. The range numbers from Leeham have no bearing on range numbers from a field limited LCY, operating with an all-J cabin. If doing TATL, there's no way they are doing that with 108 pax from LCY. So scope is irrelevant to TATL.

Scope is relevant to operating the A221 inside Europe if they want to operate from LCY with the same 125 seat configuration that Swiss uses on their A221s into LCY. And really the only reason to get the 221 is if let's them boost seat counts and consolidate some frequencies. That requires BA to overcome the scope that CityFlyer has. Presumably, this would effectively see CityFlyer rolled up into mainline BA if that much scope relief is needed. I doubt the unions will agree to 125 seaters flying with cheaper pilots.
 
bamf777
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 8:51 pm

As much as I loved flying on the A220-300 with BT, I don’t think it will be the aircraft of choice to replace the A319 with BA mainline.
BA are favouring ‘densifying’ the current airbus fleet and lowering fares to fill them up rather than send out a 319 full with 143/144 seats you can send out a 320 with capacity for 180 (obviously less with club Europe) with cheaper fares but make more money.
IAG have stated that the 319 fleet will slowly be retired and replaced by the 320neo.
Now, wether that changes with economic changes etc. we never know but I can see the E2 being the most likely replacement with commonality.
Never say never though!

P.S I miss the moving map on the Airbus and loved the individual ones in the PSU on the CSeries (sorry A220).
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TObound
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:01 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
The A220-300 is a fab aircraft and according to AirBaltic it has stellar performance on short and long missions..It can fly 7hrs straight with full payload...I think the E2-jets are a little lighter though when compared, but they have less range..But does BA really need the range for its LCY missions? Unless they intend to replace the A319s of their fleet with A220-300s, i don't see why they should go for the latter..And even if they flew them from LGW or MAN to the Canaries or Cyprus the E2-195s can still make it with full payload..Also,we shouldn't forget the short-field takeoff performance..How do both aircraft fare there..? Plus the E-jets have the beloved 2+2 config..Tough choice


The only E-Jets they have are the 23 at CJ. They have 32 CR9/CR10s at YW that are in the same class as the 221. But BA has 42 A319s and IB has another 14. EI, BA and IB have lots of 320s to be replaced in the years to come that could probably be replaced with a hi-lo mix of 321Ns and 223s. Really this comes down to a broader fleet strategy. Do they want to buy the CSeries/A220 for both mainline and regional replacements? This would probably mean A320NEO orders move largely (or even entirely) to 321N. Or do they want some different mix and are willing to tolerate subfleets like E2s just for CJ at LCY.

bamf777 wrote:
As much as I loved flying on the A220-300 with BT, I don’t think it will be the aircraft of choice to replace the A319 with BA mainline.
BA are favouring ‘densifying’ the current airbus fleet and lowering fares to fill them up rather than send out a 319 full with 143/144 seats you can send out a 320 with capacity for 180 (obviously less with club Europe) with cheaper fares but make more money.
IAG have stated that the 319 fleet will slowly be retired and replaced by the 320neo.
Now, wether that changes with economic changes etc. we never know but I can see the E2 being the most likely replacement with commonality.
Never say never though!


That strategy made sense with the 319/320 because CASM on the 319 wasn't great and the marginal trip cost of the 320 not as substantial. Swap that 319 for a 223, and the math may or may not work out the same. I'd argue there's not sense in operating A320s really. Hi-Lo mix of 223s and 321Ns would do a fantastic job.
 
VV
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:07 pm

marcogr12 wrote:
....

I think the E2-jets are a little lighter though when compared, but they have less range..But does BA really need the range for its LCY missions?

....



It is reasonable to think only E190-E2 will go to LCY and not E195-E2.

As far as I know the longest route BA CityFlyer is serving today is about 1,400 nm. Let's say with a horrible head wind the ESAD would be 1,600 nm. It is still well inside E190-E2's capability.

By the way, you need to read this press article very carefully.
https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... y-airport/

QUOTE
Although the headline passenger capacity is 125 passengers, the airline is restricting the number of passengers it will take on board flights to London City to 91 which will rise to 108 by August 21, 2017.
UNQUOTE
 
TObound
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:37 pm

VV wrote:

By the way, you need to read this press article very carefully.
https://www.businesstraveller.com/busin ... y-airport/

QUOTE
Although the headline passenger capacity is 125 passengers, the airline is restricting the number of passengers it will take on board flights to London City to 91 which will rise to 108 by August 21, 2017.
UNQUOTE


Interesting that the restrictions are based on braking considerations of a wet runway while landing. Article is also 2 years old. I wonder if BBD has figured out a technical solution or Swiss has figured out an operational workaround to boost capacity. It's too bad Swiss didn't take the opportunity to offer North American J seats since they were limited to 108 seats anyway! Might be a fantastic option for BA to consider: a real premium service.

Looking at Swiss' layout on Seatguru, if they were to fly a normal European Business complement, they wouldn't have 125 onboard anyway. They'd have 117 max with blocked seats in the business cabin. Could probably make the argument that 120 seats is a better configure with a much larger Euro Business section (8 rows), allowing them to sell up to 24J tickets with blocked seats, which makes for 104 pax on a 120 seat aircraft.
 
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LuxuryTravelled
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Tue Jun 04, 2019 9:47 pm

Does the seat cap remain on CityFlyer?
 
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:14 am

flyingcello wrote:
Let's hope it's for the A220...and a gateway order into IAG.

The A220 could potentially displace the 319s at BA/VY/IB...and all the wings will hopefully continue to be built in Belfast!

I hope! It will be a nice plane for their missions. Come on, order 26!

As a Pratt fan, I'll just watch to see the winner.

Lightsaber
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Andy33
Posts: 2391
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 9:30 am

Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:09 am

flyingcello wrote:
Let's hope it's for the A220...and a gateway order into IAG.

The A220 could potentially displace the 319s at BA/VY/IB...and all the wings will hopefully continue to be built in Belfast!


Well, the remaining 319s anyway. BA currently plan to replace a third of their A319 fleet over the next 18 months as more A320/321neo arrive. Given the slow ramp up of A220 series deliveries, chances are that another tranche of A319s will reach end of life or end of lease before any new A220 series could possibly arrive.
The purchase of Monarch's LGW slots brought a reprieve for quite a few A319s that would otherwise have already have left the fleet, as BA needed to fly the slots or lose them, but the lack of A319neo orders suggests that BA plan on using these slots for longhaul or for shorthaul flights that can justify higher capacity aircraft such as A320s, as replacement aircraft arrive.
 
PlymSpotter
Posts: 10523
Joined: Thu Jun 17, 2004 7:32 am

Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:27 am

This will be a very interesting competition to watch. It would be a keystone order for either manufacturer - arguably more critical for Embraer to retain the client.

Short field performance, noise / environment and cost will be key, most likely in that order.
...love is just a camouflage for what resembles rage again...
 
VV
Posts: 714
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Wed Jun 05, 2019 9:31 am

TObound wrote:
...
Interesting that the restrictions are based on braking considerations of a wet runway while landing. Article is also 2 years old. I wonder if BBD has figured out a technical solution or Swiss has figured out an operational workaround to boost capacity.
...


Perhaps it rains every now and then in Britain.
 
Amiga500
Posts: 2137
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 8:22 am

Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:18 am

VV wrote:
CS300 at LCY? Are you kidding? It is not going to happen. Full stop.


Why not?

A318 MTOW: 68T
CS300 MTOW: 70T

A318 OEW: 39.5T
CS300 OEW: 37T

A318 MLW: 57.5T
CS300 MLW: 58.7T

A318 LFL: 1230m
CS300 LFL: 1509m (not on steep approach)

A318 TFL: 1780m (@MTOW)
CS300 TFL: 1890m (@MTOW)

A318 S: 122.4 sqm
CS300 S: 112.3 sqm


They might need to uprate the brakes a bit, but there is absolutely nothing stopping the CS300 from being certified to fly into and out of LCY.
 
VV
Posts: 714
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:17 am

Amiga500 wrote:
VV wrote:
CS300 at LCY? Are you kidding? It is not going to happen. Full stop.


Why not?

A318 MTOW: 68T
CS300 MTOW: 70T

A318 OEW: 39.5T
CS300 OEW: 37T

A318 MLW: 57.5T
CS300 MLW: 58.7T

A318 LFL: 1230m
CS300 LFL: 1509m (not on steep approach)

A318 TFL: 1780m (@MTOW)
CS300 TFL: 1890m (@MTOW)

A318 S: 122.4 sqm
CS300 S: 112.3 sqm


They might need to uprate the brakes a bit, but there is absolutely nothing stopping the CS300 from being certified to fly into and out of LCY.


No CS300 at LCY because I say so.
 
greg85
Posts: 171
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:45 am

Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:23 am

Many people on here are fantasising that BA will operate the same type as citiflyer. They probably won’t. It makes it easier to justify paying the citiflyer pilots much less, and keeping them on separate lower terms and conditions.
 
TObound
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:26 am

VV wrote:
TObound wrote:
...
Interesting that the restrictions are based on braking considerations of a wet runway while landing. Article is also 2 years old. I wonder if BBD has figured out a technical solution or Swiss has figured out an operational workaround to boost capacity.
...


Perhaps it rains every now and then in Britain.


And?

This doesn't seem like an issue that can't be addressed. Indeed, LH bought the aircraft knowing those restrictions.
 
TObound
Posts: 66
Joined: Mon May 27, 2019 12:54 am

Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Wed Jun 05, 2019 11:27 am

greg85 wrote:
Many people on here are fantasising that BA will operate the same type as citiflyer. They probably won’t. It makes it easier to justify paying the citiflyer pilots much less, and keeping them on separate lower terms and conditions.


I think we all agree that if CJ gets 221s, BA will be changing what CityFlyer does and stands for.
 
tomkell92
Posts: 132
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 4:20 pm

Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:01 pm

I don't give this article any credibility whatsoever.

Firstly, BACF have just added another E190 to the fleet (G-LCAA) and there's 3 more on the way - all ex-China Southern.
The current plan is to ditch the E170's when their leases expire and keep building up the E190's. There's talk of the leases being renewed / extended for most of their E190's.

Furthermore, there was a demonstration flight a few months ago at MAN where Embraer brought the "profit hunter" E190-E2 over and took BA out for a spin around the Lake District. Not seen Bombardier / Airbus do anything like that yet.

Also, if they went for the A220, it would have to be the A220-100 - BA mainline have a scope clause for BACF that they can't have more than 100 seats. This may be extended slightly to accommodate the A220-100, but it certainly won't be extended as to accommodate the A220-300.

So, for me, I highly doubt a decision is "months" away, I think that needs correcting to "years" away, but we'll just have to wait and see.
Tom
 
seansasLCY
Topic Author
Posts: 948
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2007 5:25 am

Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:22 pm

tomkell92 wrote:
I don't give this article any credibility whatsoever.

Firstly, BACF have just added another E190 to the fleet (G-LCAA) and there's 3 more on the way - all ex-China Southern.
The current plan is to ditch the E170's when their leases expire and keep building up the E190's. There's talk of the leases being renewed / extended for most of their E190's.

Furthermore, there was a demonstration flight a few months ago at MAN where Embraer brought the "profit hunter" E190-E2 over and took BA out for a spin around the Lake District. Not seen Bombardier / Airbus do anything like that yet.

Also, if they went for the A220, it would have to be the A220-100 - BA mainline have a scope clause for BACF that they can't have more than 100 seats. This may be extended slightly to accommodate the A220-100, but it certainly won't be extended as to accommodate the A220-300.

So, for me, I highly doubt a decision is "months" away, I think that needs correcting to "years" away, but we'll just have to wait and see.


Its based on an interview with Willy Walsh so there must be something behind it. Secondly, BA have checked out the A220. Airbus have used one of the Swiss ones at LCY to show potential customers and done a short flight in it.

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