aviationaware
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:22 pm

The E2 is clearly subpar or else it wouldn't be such a shelf warmer, however I think the apron capacity for A220s will make this an easy win for the E2 even though the A220 is clearly the much better aircraft.
 
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LuxuryTravelled
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Wed Jun 05, 2019 12:56 pm

aviationaware wrote:
The E2 is clearly subpar or else it wouldn't be such a shelf warmer, however I think the apron capacity for A220s will make this an easy win for the E2 even though the A220 is clearly the much better aircraft.


Does CityFlyer still have the 100 seat restriction?
 
TObound
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:13 pm

tomkell92 wrote:
I don't give this article any credibility whatsoever.

Firstly, BACF have just added another E190 to the fleet (G-LCAA) and there's 3 more on the way - all ex-China Southern.
The current plan is to ditch the E170's when their leases expire and keep building up the E190's. There's talk of the leases being renewed / extended for most of their E190's.

Furthermore, there was a demonstration flight a few months ago at MAN where Embraer brought the "profit hunter" E190-E2 over and took BA out for a spin around the Lake District. Not seen Bombardier / Airbus do anything like that yet.

Also, if they went for the A220, it would have to be the A220-100 - BA mainline have a scope clause for BACF that they can't have more than 100 seats. This may be extended slightly to accommodate the A220-100, but it certainly won't be extended as to accommodate the A220-300.

So, for me, I highly doubt a decision is "months" away, I think that needs correcting to "years" away, but we'll just have to wait and see.


I think the E2 has the edge. But I also don't think it's as sure a thing as you suggest. Their acquisition decisions are being made in the context of the whole IAG. And with that in mind, they are certainly gaming out where the E2, 220, MAX, etc. fits in and what airplanes they replace in which sub-carrier. With that in mind, there's a chance the 220 may carry the day when the Group's considerations are put to the fore.

seansasLCY wrote:

Its based on an interview with Willy Walsh so there must be something behind it. Secondly, BA have checked out the A220. Airbus have used one of the Swiss ones at LCY to show potential customers and done a short flight in it.


At minimum, BA would at least want to keep the A220 in the running, to keep Boeing honest. Writing of the 220 simply means they pay more for the E2.


aviationaware wrote:
The E2 is clearly subpar or else it wouldn't be such a shelf warmer, however I think the apron capacity for A220s will make this an easy win for the E2 even though the A220 is clearly the much better aircraft.


Would that still be the case with the new taxiway and all the other terminal mods going in? Swiss has no issues operating from there. But I don't think they park aircraft there. That said, there's a lot to favour the E2. And ramp space is one among many factors.

LuxuryTravelled wrote:

Does CityFlyer still have the 100 seat restriction?


There's nothing out there that says scope has changed. Nothing also saying that scope can't be changed to accommodate a larger aircraft with say contractual restrictions on which airports they can operate to/from.
 
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:34 pm

TObound wrote:
And it was done with a premium config of 40J. The range numbers from Leeham have no bearing on range numbers from a field limited LCY, operating with an all-J cabin. If doing TATL, there's no way they are doing that with 108 pax from LCY. So scope is irrelevant to TATL.


It is still relevant. The scope clause isn't about how many seats the aircraft has, but how many it is certified to typically carry. That's why the A318 is mainline, because the A318 typically carries more than 100 seats.

That requires BA to overcome the scope that CityFlyer has. Presumably, this would effectively see CityFlyer rolled up into mainline BA if that much scope relief is needed. I doubt the unions will agree to 125 seaters flying with cheaper pilots.


The chances of that are essentially nil. The A221 might not be able to get around the scope issue and the last thing BA needs right now is to pick yet another fight with its pilots.
 
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Wed Jun 05, 2019 1:47 pm

BA777FO wrote:
TObound wrote:
And it was done with a premium config of 40J. The range numbers from Leeham have no bearing on range numbers from a field limited LCY, operating with an all-J cabin. If doing TATL, there's no way they are doing that with 108 pax from LCY. So scope is irrelevant to TATL.


It is still relevant. The scope clause isn't about how many seats the aircraft has, but how many it is certified to typically carry. That's why the A318 is mainline, because the A318 typically carries more than 100 seats.



But the E190 is certified to carry more than 98. Just BA fits less so that its under the clause.
 
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:24 pm

TObound wrote:
There's nothing out there that says scope has changed. Nothing also saying that scope can't be changed to accommodate a larger aircraft with say contractual restrictions on which airports they can operate to/from.


Given how the latest pay negotiations have been going and how many FTAs BALPA already has with BA any change to scope, even just for a LCY only exception, would need concessions I don't think BA are willing to pay!
 
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:37 pm

seansasLCY wrote:
But the E190 is certified to carry more than 98. Just BA fits less so that its under the clause.


No. The E190SR aircraft that BA Cityflyer operate are certified to seat a maximum of 98 passengers. They couldn’t operate them otherwise. Which is why even second-hand aircraft have to be recertified as SR aircraft before being put into service.

https://www.easa.europa.eu/sites/default/files/dfu/TCDS_EASA%20IM%20A%20071_ERJ_190_Issue-19.pdf

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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:43 pm

I think the A220 will be great . It will be worth having and maybe they will expand citflyer services out of Lcy and also put city flyer ba brand to the regions
 
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:51 pm

I really hope the A220 gets the nod, not just for BA but it would also be an excellent fit for EI, who currently have nothing in the gap between the ATR72 and A320.
 
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Wed Jun 05, 2019 2:53 pm

seansasLCY wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
TObound wrote:
And it was done with a premium config of 40J. The range numbers from Leeham have no bearing on range numbers from a field limited LCY, operating with an all-J cabin. If doing TATL, there's no way they are doing that with 108 pax from LCY. So scope is irrelevant to TATL.


It is still relevant. The scope clause isn't about how many seats the aircraft has, but how many it is certified to typically carry. That's why the A318 is mainline, because the A318 typically carries more than 100 seats.



But the E190 is certified to carry more than 98. Just BA fits less so that its under the clause.


I said typically carry - the design and intent of the Scope clause is that affects aircraft that typically or normally carry over 100 passengers. As someone mentioned above, BA Citiflyer operates the E190SR and not the standard or LR version, which is certifies for 98 passengers. However, as per the intent of Scope, the A318 typically carries over 100 passengers despite how BA has configured it, hence the A318 is mainline. The 757 Openskies operated typically carries more than 100 passengers again regardless of how Openskies ooerated it so it had to be flown outside of the UK.

The E190 typically operates with fewer than 100 seats among many operators of the type so an agreement was made that the E190 was permissable. The E195 would not have been, however. The A220 I believe typically operates with more than 100 seats so would fall foul of scope.
 
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Wed Jun 05, 2019 3:11 pm

Until the A220 can be “shrunk” down to a 5 abreast 50 -75 seat regional airliner jet with a common type rating for pilots... I think we all know (even without a university economics degree) what the right choice for a shorter range secondary city airline should most likely be.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:17 pm

I think that Airbus is in prime contention here:

The A220 is an excellent aircraft (not saying the E2 isn't), even premium by some standards with its features, which is what they try and pass their LCY operations off as.

BA only have about 20 neos on the books and about four times the ceos that will need replacing. I nice bundle order, including their friends within IAG which operate all Airbus short-haul fleets would do just fine I should think.
 
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:32 pm

Honestly a 5 abreast fuselage is a lot less claustrophobic than a 4 abreast.

However a 4 abreast guarantees every trip to not being stuck in the dreaded middle between fictional 400 pound Fred Heffer and imaginary cat seeing Linda Looney.

Air travel gives people things to talk about, unless you are a business traveler who cares more about an on time departure with the perk of an aisle seat so spread a little and get some work done.
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:59 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
Honestly a 5 abreast fuselage is a lot less claustrophobic than a 4 abreast.

Do you mean, a fuselage designed for 5ab vs one designed for 4ab feels a lot less claustrophobic?
 
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:40 am

Amiga500 wrote:
VV wrote:
CS300 at LCY? Are you kidding? It is not going to happen. Full stop.


Why not?

A318 MTOW: 68T
CS300 MTOW: 70T

A318 OEW: 39.5T
CS300 OEW: 37T

A318 MLW: 57.5T
CS300 MLW: 58.7T

A318 LFL: 1230m
CS300 LFL: 1509m (not on steep approach)

A318 TFL: 1780m (@MTOW)
CS300 TFL: 1890m (@MTOW)

A318 S: 122.4 sqm
CS300 S: 112.3 sqm


They might need to uprate the brakes a bit, but there is absolutely nothing stopping the CS300 from being certified to fly into and out of LCY.


It's more to do with the increased risk of tailstrike on takeoff or landing due to the fuselage length and gear height. If Embraer upped the landing gear height a little on the E175 and 195 they may have got LCY certification.
 
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:09 am

BA777FO wrote:
TObound wrote:
And it was done with a premium config of 40J. The range numbers from Leeham have no bearing on range numbers from a field limited LCY, operating with an all-J cabin. If doing TATL, there's no way they are doing that with 108 pax from LCY. So scope is irrelevant to TATL.


It is still relevant. The scope clause isn't about how many seats the aircraft has, but how many it is certified to typically carry. That's why the A318 is mainline, because the A318 typically carries more than 100 seats.

That requires BA to overcome the scope that CityFlyer has. Presumably, this would effectively see CityFlyer rolled up into mainline BA if that much scope relief is needed. I doubt the unions will agree to 125 seaters flying with cheaper pilots.


The chances of that are essentially nil. The A221 might not be able to get around the scope issue and the last thing BA needs right now is to pick yet another fight with its pilots.


I thought it’s simply because using Airbus pilots from the Airbus pool to fly an Airbus makes it a lot easier than to hire a handful of Airbus pilots for Cityflyer. No?
 
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:00 pm

Furthermore, there was a demonstration flight a few months ago at MAN where Embraer brought the "profit hunter" E190-E2 over and took BA out for a spin around the Lake District. Not seen Bombardier / Airbus do anything like that yet.


The CS100 demonstrator has been to MAN for a few days performing a few flights, I forget the date but it most certainly has been into MAN the same way the E2 demonstrator did.
 
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:37 pm

opticalilyushin wrote:
Amiga500 wrote:
VV wrote:
CS300 at LCY? Are you kidding? It is not going to happen. Full stop.


Why not?

A318 MTOW: 68T
CS300 MTOW: 70T

A318 OEW: 39.5T
CS300 OEW: 37T

A318 MLW: 57.5T
CS300 MLW: 58.7T

A318 LFL: 1230m
CS300 LFL: 1509m (not on steep approach)

A318 TFL: 1780m (@MTOW)
CS300 TFL: 1890m (@MTOW)

A318 S: 122.4 sqm
CS300 S: 112.3 sqm


They might need to uprate the brakes a bit, but there is absolutely nothing stopping the CS300 from being certified to fly into and out of LCY.


It's more to do with the increased risk of tailstrike on takeoff or landing due to the fuselage length and gear height. If Embraer upped the landing gear height a little on the E175 and 195 they may have got LCY certification.


Actually, according to Embraer themselves, this is a popular myth.

The driving issue is that the E170/175 and 190/195 share a common wing, but the larger variant's are significantly heavier. They both *can* operate at LCY, but when you review the detailed performance figures for each variant at LCY, it becomes clear that the 175 / 195 cannot maintain the required approach speed to land with a remotely viable payload. Departures are mostly fine - without getting into specifics, even the E195 could operate to AMS, PAR, FRA etc... with a full load.
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:11 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
Until the A220 can be “shrunk” down to a 5 abreast 50 -75 seat regional airliner jet with a common type rating for pilots... I think we all know (even without a university economics degree) what the right choice for a shorter range secondary city airline should most likely be.



I should probably add.. “we know this ain’t happen” in case there are those who condescending believe my thoughts include dreams of a 50 seat 5 abreast A220.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sun Jul 07, 2019 8:10 pm


One announcement and related to the rebuilding of their fleet has sparked a lot of interest lately. Namely, the International Consolidated Airlines Group, S.A. ( IAG ), the parent company of British Airways and Iberia is looking for a replacement for the aircraft of its regional subsidiary BA CityFlyer which operates domestic and European routes from London City airport, focusing on providing bespoke routes for the business travelers, as well as the holidaymakers who don’t want to fly through LHR or the other big London airports: LGW, STN and LTN. For the airline currently operating the fleet of 23 aircraft of the type Embraer.ERJ-170STD and Embraer.ERJ-190LR, there is intention to order at least 26 new aircraft, either Image.A220 or Image.E-Jet E2 jets. It is an order that may not change ratio of a previous orders a lot, but could have a signal effect.

...The Image.A220-100 is almost a perfect aircraft for this fleet renewal. It’s already proving to be popular, with over 500 orders worldwide, including the reputable companies like Delta Air Lines, Inc.. It has been praised for its excellent passenger comforts (such as the window in the bathroom), and a recent engine improvement has increased the range to reach well over the Atlantic, but there is one issue that might make the Embraer E-Jet E2 aircraft series more desirable for British Airways over the Airbus A220 series, and that is the matter of a crew training since BA CityFlyer already has a fleet of Embraer aircraft.

...In March 2017 the Bombardier Aviation already flew C Series CS100 aircraft with a representative payload non-stop from London City Airport to New York JFK Airport in New York City, following the completion of demonstration tests for the steep-approach and short-field landing at LCY, smoothly performing all eight takeoffs and landings during a two-day period. The Bombardier C Series / Airbus A220 is the only commercial aircraft that was specifically designed for operations at LCY. In its full 108-seat cabin layout, the CS100 can fly some 2.350 nmi / 4.352 km into and out of London City. It can reach JFK from LCY in a 42-passenger configuration while the British AirwaysAirbus A318 was flying with 36 passengers on that route with a stop in Shannon, Ireland, for the refueling...

...Image
Bombardier C Series CS100 aircraft; MSN 50002, reg. C-GWYD, powered by two P&W PW1524G turbofans, performing validation tests at the London City Airport (click on the image for a larger view)

...On 13. July 2018 the Image.E190-E2 ( ERJ-190-300 STD ) testbed aircraft; MSN 19020004, reg. PR-ZGQ, powered by two Image.PW1922G, ‘2,5’-shaft, high-bypass, geared, turbofan engine (fan diameter: 1.854,2 mm / 73,0 in; BPR: 12,0:1; gear ratio: 3,0625:1; eng. architecture: 1F-]G[-3LPC–8HPC〧2HPT–3LPT), OPR: 50,0:1, each rated at 105,93 kN / 10.802 kgf / 23.815 lbf, on its way to 2018 Farnborough Airshow, landed for the first time at London City Airport (LCY).

………..…....Image

The Image.E190-E2 entered service in April of 2018 with the launch customer Widerøes Flyveselskap AS ( Widerøe ). That stopover at LCY demonstrated the importance of being able to offer LCY capability to airlines and its intention to work with LCY and to certify the aircraft just to meet the customer demand. It is the same size as its predecessor, the Embraer ERJ-190, with up to 114 seats. Nearly 60 % of LCY’s departures in 2017 were operated with the ERJ-190s, with the carriers including BA Cityflyer and KLM Cityhopper.

Image

Image
A comparison between the aircraft Airbus A318, Airbus 220-100, Airbus A220-300 and Embraer E190-E2 (click on the image for a larger view)

If I would find myself in the position of the IAG’s CEO, having to choose between the Image.A220-100 and the Image.E190-E2 aircraft, my choice would certainly be the Airbus A220 aircraft …

Mario
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KlimaBXsst
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:00 pm

So if the A220 can reach JFK with 42 seats....

With how many seats can the E2 reach JFK with. I think we have our answer.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:33 pm

KlimaBXsst wrote:
So if the A220 can reach JFK with 42 seats....

With how many seats can the E2 reach JFK with. I think we have our answer.

It would be convenient to have one pilot pool for LCY.

I see this as a gateway order. Either the E2 wins or the A220. Whichever way it goes, I expect IAG to order more of the same family, but perhaps larger varients.

I like the fact it is Pratt vs. Pratt.

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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sun Jul 07, 2019 11:37 pm

lightsaber wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
So if the A220 can reach JFK with 42 seats....

With how many seats can the E2 reach JFK with. I think we have our answer.

It would be convenient to have one pilot pool for LCY.

I see this as a gateway order. Either the E2 wins or the A220. Whichever way it goes, I expect IAG to order more of the same family, but perhaps larger varients.

I like the fact it is Pratt vs. Pratt.

Lightsaber


Larger varients will be a bit of an issue. Any British Airways flying, anywhere in the UK, in aircraft purchased or leased with 100 seats or more, will be flown by mainline BA pilots. Removing seats from an aircraft normally fitted with 100+ seats will not qualify (hence why the A318 is flown by mainline BA pilots) so operating the A220 may well be a non-starter. Citiflyer has a special version of the E190 to ensure it's compliant with the scope agreement.
 
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:11 am

How would you interpret CityFlyer flying 190-E2s and Mainline flying 195-E2s? Allowable or not-allowable?
 
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Crosswind
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:21 am

BA777FO wrote:
Larger varients will be a bit of an issue. Any British Airways flying, anywhere in the UK, in aircraft purchased or leased with 100 seats or more, will be flown by mainline BA pilots. Removing seats from an aircraft normally fitted with 100+ seats will not qualify (hence why the A318 is flown by mainline BA pilots) so operating the A220 may well be a non-starter. Citiflyer has a special version of the E190 to ensure it's compliant with the scope agreement.


That isn't the only issue. You contradict yourself with the A318 is normally flown with more seats (as is the E190) but Cityflyer operate a "special" version of the E190 with less than 100 seats. Airbus and Embraer could just as easily certify the A318SR, A220SR and the E2-190SR as with the original E190SR.The E190SR only exists for the Scope Restriction. No other airline has it, and any second hand E190 becomes an E190SR the day it enters service at Cityflyer. With the A220 that would give a very spacious layout... however scope is an industrial agreement that can be negotiated. And the background stems from a very different era. Smallest mainline type 106 seat 737-500 then in 2007 versus 143 seat A319 now.

But that isn't the main issue...

The issue which most fail to identify, is parking at London City. The A220 currently only fits on Stands 21-24 (4 in total) and when the airport expansion is complete will only fit on Stands 21-31 (10 in total). The E2-190 will fit on stands 1-10, and 21-31 (20 in total)
That gives considerable flexibility. And can the home airline run it's entire operation from 10 stands? I don't know the answer... but it's a very definite consideration.

Regards
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:56 am

Amiga500 wrote:
JamesCousins wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
The article mentions the E2-190, but not which A220 variant. Is the -300 suitable for LCY ops?

This battle will be hard fought. The E2 should have an advantage with Citiflyer already operating E-jets. Will be interesting to see how much Airbus can discount the A220.


And arguably to a greater degree whether BA wants the extra range and lift of the A220?


Payload-range (for both aircraft) out of LCY is quite different from the poster figures (which will all be off a big runway).

The longest flight I can find out of LCY is to Santorini, at around 2,600 km. Its currently ran by city flyer, but easily within the range of the E2 and CSeries.

I see Embraer are expecting 190-E2 to have an LCY range of around 2,200 nm. CS100 is supposedly able to do 2350 nm out of LCY.

Marginal differences. Don't know if it would differentiate any important markets or not; I suppose if a CS300 can do LCY, then that is a real differentiator with a capacity increase of something like 40%.



I would not consider the CS100 seating at around 20 more with same seat pitch to be a marginal difference!
 
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:07 am

This seems as though it is Airbus (A220) to lose...and since I don't see any BA routes where the range of the A319 is needed (most stages are less than 3 hours). I see this as killing off 2 birds with 1 stone...A220-100 for BA City Flyer and A220-300 for BA mainline as an A319 replacement (similar fuel burn, slightly less range, but 7 metric tons lighter and can be configured CY150---the BCS3 has an exit limit of 160).

But there are two issues:
1. Can "Mixed Fleet" cabin crew be assigned to CJ to start before graduating to BA mainline?
2. The exit-door limit for the BCS1 is 125 seats...can it be profitably operated at 100 without going to a third FA? Even DL goes for 109 seats in 2 classes, while LX is at 125 seats.
 
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:16 am

BA777FO wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
So if the A220 can reach JFK with 42 seats....

With how many seats can the E2 reach JFK with. I think we have our answer.

It would be convenient to have one pilot pool for LCY.

I see this as a gateway order. Either the E2 wins or the A220. Whichever way it goes, I expect IAG to order more of the same family, but perhaps larger varients.

I like the fact it is Pratt vs. Pratt.

Lightsaber


Larger varients will be a bit of an issue. Any British Airways flying, anywhere in the UK, in aircraft purchased or leased with 100 seats or more, will be flown by mainline BA pilots. Removing seats from an aircraft normally fitted with 100+ seats will not qualify (hence why the A318 is flown by mainline BA pilots) so operating the A220 may well be a non-starter. Citiflyer has a special version of the E190 to ensure it's compliant with the scope agreement.

IAG will make a multi airline order IMHO.

If 100+ seats are forbidden, then expect a 99 seat variant just as there is a 98 seat E-190.

If BA opperates the A220-300, or IB, or another airline, so be it. Last I looked, if the airline parks outside of the UK, those rules do not apply.

I still see this as a gateway order.

If it is E2-190 and then another subsidiary flying E2-195, that makes sense too.

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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:33 am

Crosswind wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
Larger varients will be a bit of an issue. Any British Airways flying, anywhere in the UK, in aircraft purchased or leased with 100 seats or more, will be flown by mainline BA pilots. Removing seats from an aircraft normally fitted with 100+ seats will not qualify (hence why the A318 is flown by mainline BA pilots) so operating the A220 may well be a non-starter. Citiflyer has a special version of the E190 to ensure it's compliant with the scope agreement.


That isn't the only issue. You contradict yourself with the A318 is normally flown with more seats (as is the E190) but Cityflyer operate a "special" version of the E190 with less than 100 seats. Airbus and Embraer could just as easily certify the A318SR, A220SR and the E2-190SR as with the original E190SR.The E190SR only exists for the Scope Restriction. No other airline has it, and any second hand E190 becomes an E190SR the day it enters service at Cityflyer. With the A220 that would give a very spacious layout... however scope is an industrial agreement that can be negotiated. And the background stems from a very different era. Smallest mainline type 106 seat 737-500 then in 2007 versus 143 seat A319 now.

But that isn't the main issue...

The issue which most fail to identify, is parking at London City. The A220 currently only fits on Stands 21-24 (4 in total) and when the airport expansion is complete will only fit on Stands 21-31 (10 in total). The E2-190 will fit on stands 1-10, and 21-31 (20 in total)
That gives considerable flexibility. And can the home airline run it's entire operation from 10 stands? I don't know the answer... but it's a very definite consideration.

Regards
CROSSWIND


The E190SR has a few other modifications but is certified for 98 seats. If Airbus wants to modify and certify a 98 seat A220 then so be it, but it's unlikely to be viable. You say Scope can be negotiated, it's incredibly naive to think that a) pilots are willing in the current environment to renegotiate it and b) that BA has anything it can offer to entice an exception.
 
MIflyer12
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:37 am

aemoreira1981 wrote:
T2. The exit-door limit for the BCS1 is 125 seats...can it be profitably operated at 100 without going to a third FA? Even DL goes for 109 seats in 2 classes, while LX is at 125 seats.


That's market-specific: Do the 'extra' seats pay for the FA? Can you give up the seat revenue? DL has another FA for the 9 extra seats on the A220-100. They also take the extra FA for 10 seats on a 738, and for the 8 on the MD-90, and the 7 on the A320.
 
BA777FO
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:45 am

lightsaber wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
It would be convenient to have one pilot pool for LCY.

I see this as a gateway order. Either the E2 wins or the A220. Whichever way it goes, I expect IAG to order more of the same family, but perhaps larger varients.

I like the fact it is Pratt vs. Pratt.

Lightsaber


Larger varients will be a bit of an issue. Any British Airways flying, anywhere in the UK, in aircraft purchased or leased with 100 seats or more, will be flown by mainline BA pilots. Removing seats from an aircraft normally fitted with 100+ seats will not qualify (hence why the A318 is flown by mainline BA pilots) so operating the A220 may well be a non-starter. Citiflyer has a special version of the E190 to ensure it's compliant with the scope agreement.

IAG will make a multi airline order IMHO.

If 100+ seats are forbidden, then expect a 99 seat variant just as there is a 98 seat E-190.

If BA opperates the A220-300, or IB, or another airline, so be it. Last I looked, if the airline parks outside of the UK, those rules do not apply.

I still see this as a gateway order.

If it is E2-190 and then another subsidiary flying E2-195, that makes sense too.

Lightsaber


Where the aircraft is parked has no bearing it. Scope is quite specific that any aircraft operated, leased or purchased by BA is covered. Is it really worth operating a 130 seat aircraft with only 98 seats?
 
jrfspa320
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:57 am

I cant see the JFK service surviving once crossrail is operational anyhow. (Summer 2020 ish...)
Im sure the A318 will be retired from service then
 
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lightsaber
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:48 am

BA777FO wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
BA777FO wrote:

Larger varients will be a bit of an issue. Any British Airways flying, anywhere in the UK, in aircraft purchased or leased with 100 seats or more, will be flown by mainline BA pilots. Removing seats from an aircraft normally fitted with 100+ seats will not qualify (hence why the A318 is flown by mainline BA pilots) so operating the A220 may well be a non-starter. Citiflyer has a special version of the E190 to ensure it's compliant with the scope agreement.

IAG will make a multi airline order IMHO.

If 100+ seats are forbidden, then expect a 99 seat variant just as there is a 98 seat E-190.

If BA opperates the A220-300, or IB, or another airline, so be it. Last I looked, if the airline parks outside of the UK, those rules do not apply.

I still see this as a gateway order.

If it is E2-190 and then another subsidiary flying E2-195, that makes sense too.

Lightsaber


Where the aircraft is parked has no bearing it. Scope is quite specific that any aircraft operated, leased or purchased by BA is covered. Is it really worth operating a 130 seat aircraft with only 98 seats?

I wasn't clear. If it needs to be opperates by Iberia, Air Lingua, Vueling, or another division of IAG, so be it. In no way am I stating the order must be for BA. This is an IAG order for aircraft. The A220-100 or E2-190 could be operated by cityflier with 99/98 seats, but if there are larger variants, other divisions would likely opperate them.

I think this will be part of a larger IAG order. I'm not really seeing a need for many A220 at BA. It is the other airlines with hub growth potential that need them.

Lightsaber
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VV
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 6:45 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
So if the A220 can reach JFK with 42 seats....

With how many seats can the E2 reach JFK with. I think we have our answer.


Why are you guys so obsessed with A220 flying across the Atlantic?

As for the E2, I think Embraer decided that a range beyond 2,500 nm is not useful for an aircraft in the 100-130 seat category. They may be right in their assessment.

Too many people underestimate the role E2 will play in the future.
 
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scbriml
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:15 am

VV wrote:
Too many people underestimate the role E2 will play in the future.


Which is surprising, given the huge sales. Oh wait...
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There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
VV
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:26 am

scbriml wrote:
VV wrote:
Too many people underestimate the role E2 will play in the future.


Which is surprising, given the huge sales. Oh wait...


Yes, the total orders for E2 are not stellar today, but the aircraft was launched only in 2013 or about six years ago. It was at Paris airshow 2013 and it is a derivative of the E-Jet of the first generation. It seems that they have been able to remain within the targeted development cost (within an acceptable tolerance) and they managed to hit the milestones as planned.

The E195-E2 obtained its type certificate in 2019 or about six years after launch.

So far, it has been doing quite well and I insist that too many people underestimate the role E-Jet E2 will play in the future.
 
oschkosch
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 7:35 am

VV wrote:

Yes, the total orders for E2 are not stellar today, .......


....and I insist that too many people underestimate the role E-Jet E2 will play in the future.


When do you expect that to happen? Tomorrow?
Next week?
Next year?
2028 maybe?

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scbriml
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:12 am

VV wrote:
So far, it has been doing quite well and I insist that too many people underestimate the role E-Jet E2 will play in the future.


You think an average of two sales per month over six years is "doing quite well"? It seems too many are overestimating the role the E2 will play in the future.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
finnishway
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:17 am

Tell me more about this scope clause at BA. I tought it was used only in the US.
 
Jomar777
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 8:30 am

Dutchy wrote:
JamesCousins wrote:
frigatebird wrote:
The article mentions the E2-190, but not which A220 variant. Is the -300 suitable for LCY ops?

This battle will be hard fought. The E2 should have an advantage with Citiflyer already operating E-jets. Will be interesting to see how much Airbus can discount the A220.


And arguably to a greater degree whether BA wants the extra range and lift of the A220?


They might be looking at a bigger fleet for BA, replacing the A319 and A320 (if the A220-500 gets build).


We need to put something very clearly here: the A220-500 will NOT be built. End of.

What it may happen in future would be a new concept by Airbut towards replacing the A220 and A320 series by something that offers commonality.

It is pointless to build an A220-500 when the A320is is still going well.
 
Jomar777
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 9:00 am

Firstly - a BACF order for either (E2 or A221 - A223 is completely off) will be a sole order for them. Very specific operations on a restricted airport (by size, park standards as well as BA Pilots Regulations).

This means that, hypotetically, you could see, for example an order for 26 E2190s for BACF followed by an order of A221s or A223s fro IAG (to be spread between all their airlines).

Specifically in regards to BACF, delivery schedule may play a lot here. Airbus is not shifting many A220s that quick and need to hamp up production. The E2, on the other hand, does not fly out of the shelves.

IAG has just recently placed an order for the MAX (even tough they are grounded) which will mean that both Iberia and BA, at the very least will cease to be Airbus only for their short/medium haul fleets. This is a significant loss for Airbus. This may make them (Airbus) more agressive pitching the A220 for BACF but may also signial that there's more apetite for IAG and BACF to tie up a better relationship with Boeing.

My bet is clearly for the E2 to go to Cityflier but for an IAG order - not long ahead - for the A220-300 for IB and BA towards replacing their A319s.

As for the A318s flying to LCY-JFK - I believe that this service is heading for the end rather than upgrade.
 
george77300
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:00 pm

Crosswind wrote:
BA777FO wrote:
Larger varients will be a bit of an issue. Any British Airways flying, anywhere in the UK, in aircraft purchased or leased with 100 seats or more, will be flown by mainline BA pilots. Removing seats from an aircraft normally fitted with 100+ seats will not qualify (hence why the A318 is flown by mainline BA pilots) so operating the A220 may well be a non-starter. Citiflyer has a special version of the E190 to ensure it's compliant with the scope agreement.


But that isn't the main issue...

The issue which most fail to identify, is parking at London City. The A220 currently only fits on Stands 21-24 (4 in total) and when the airport expansion is complete will only fit on Stands 21-31 (10 in total). The E2-190 will fit on stands 1-10, and 21-31 (20 in total)
That gives considerable flexibility. And can the home airline run it's entire operation from 10 stands? I don't know the answer... but it's a very definite consideration.

Regards
CROSSWIND


THIS THIS

No use what aircraft is better if no parking. Currently only 4 stands. SWISS is using however many and BA A318 another.

No way A220s for BA. Just won’t fit.
 
george77300
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:05 pm

Jomar777 wrote:
Firstly - a BACF order for either (E2 or A221 - A223 is completely off) will be a sole order for them. Very specific operations on a restricted airport (by size, park standards as well as BA Pilots Regulations).

This means that, hypotetically, you could see, for example an order for 26 E2190s for BACF followed by an order of A221s or A223s fro IAG (to be spread between all their airlines).

Specifically in regards to BACF, delivery schedule may play a lot here. Airbus is not shifting many A220s that quick and need to hamp up production. The E2, on the other hand, does not fly out of the shelves.

IAG has just recently placed an order for the MAX (even tough they are grounded) which will mean that both Iberia and BA, at the very least will cease to be Airbus only for their short/medium haul fleets. This is a significant loss for Airbus. This may make them (Airbus) more agressive pitching the A220 for BACF but may also signial that there's more apetite for IAG and BACF to tie up a better relationship with Boeing.

My bet is clearly for the E2 to go to Cityflier but for an IAG order - not long ahead - for the A220-300 for IB and BA towards replacing their A319s.

As for the A318s flying to LCY-JFK - I believe that this service is heading for the end rather than upgrade.


A number of incorrect statements in here:

- IB(and EI) is getting no MAX. Only Vueling/Level and BA at Gatwick.

- NO A220-300 for BA (probably not any of the group) because BA is containerised only at LHR. Same reasons MAXs won’t be at LHR for BA. They don’t want small aircraft.

- Upsizing at BA especially. A320neo/A321neo replacing A319/320. A320neo will become the new smallest type at BA and IB. No need or desire for smaller aircraft. IB has Air Nostrum for that.

- Not enough A220 size hates at LCY. Even expansion plans are not enough for BA operations. So if later they go A220 they will have to have some E-Jets and spilt. This is unlikely so I bet on the E2 eventually.
 
Andy33
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:11 pm

aemoreira1981 wrote:
This seems as though it is Airbus (A220) to lose...and since I don't see any BA routes where the range of the A319 is needed (most stages are less than 3 hours). I see this as killing off 2 birds with 1 stone...A220-100 for BA City Flyer and A220-300 for BA mainline as an A319 replacement (similar fuel burn, slightly less range, but 7 metric tons lighter and can be configured CY150---the BCS3 has an exit limit of 160).

But there are two issues:
1. Can "Mixed Fleet" cabin crew be assigned to CJ to start before graduating to BA mainline?
2. The exit-door limit for the BCS1 is 125 seats...can it be profitably operated at 100 without going to a third FA? Even DL goes for 109 seats in 2 classes, while LX is at 125 seats.


If IAG does decide on A220 series as an A319 replacement, there won't be many of them, because the replacement of A319s is already well under way using A320s. By the time any A220s at all could be delivered, given the slow ramp-up of production and the existing orders, many of the A319s will have already left the fleets.

On a related issue, the only reason Vueling has A319s in its fleet is because Florence airport can't take A320s or A321s due to short runway and terrain restrictions. Is the A221 and/or the A223 certified for Florence yet?
 
VV
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 12:54 pm

oschkosch wrote:
VV wrote:

Yes, the total orders for E2 are not stellar today, .......


....and I insist that too many people underestimate the role E-Jet E2 will play in the future.


When do you expect that to happen? Tomorrow?
Next week?
Next year?
2028 maybe?

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I don't know when it will happen, but I do think people underestimate the aircraft too much.
I am not insinuating the total orders will be as high as 737-8 or A320neo, but the score will be in the same order of magnitude as A220.

It is possible it would score better in Europe because the distances on Europe are well below 2,000 nm. So the A220's range doesn't constitute an advantage.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 1:51 pm

VV wrote:
oschkosch wrote:
VV wrote:

Yes, the total orders for E2 are not stellar today, .......


....and I insist that too many people underestimate the role E-Jet E2 will play in the future.


When do you expect that to happen? Tomorrow?
Next week?
Next year?
2028 maybe?

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk


I don't know when it will happen, but I do think people underestimate the aircraft too much.
I am not insinuating the total orders will be as high as 737-8 or A320neo, but the score will be in the same order of magnitude as A220.

It is possible it would score better in Europe because the distances on Europe are well below 2,000 nm. So the A220's range doesn't constitute an advantage.

VV,
The profit shark sales campaign started two years ago. The KLM order for 15 is nice, but they need 400+.

When is an appropriate time to get that economy of scale. Last year the A220 was in danger. Airbus sealed orders with Moxie, JetBlue, ALC, and top off orders with Delta as well as JetBlue.

The E2s must get more customers to receive those easy top orders (AirBaltic and rumors if Korean air too).

I think the E2-195 will do well. But as of now it is another 717. Boeing couldn't save that plane. I hope the sell many PW1900G shipsets!!!

Momentum has an advantage. It is time for Embrer to create their own luck as it looks like the venture with Boeing will take a long time.

Lightsaber
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aemoreira1981
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 3:05 pm

lightsaber wrote:
VV wrote:
oschkosch wrote:

When do you expect that to happen? Tomorrow?
Next week?
Next year?
2028 maybe?

Gesendet von meinem SM-G950F mit Tapatalk


I don't know when it will happen, but I do think people underestimate the aircraft too much.
I am not insinuating the total orders will be as high as 737-8 or A320neo, but the score will be in the same order of magnitude as A220.

It is possible it would score better in Europe because the distances on Europe are well below 2,000 nm. So the A220's range doesn't constitute an advantage.

VV,
The profit shark sales campaign started two years ago. The KLM order for 15 is nice, but they need 400+.

When is an appropriate time to get that economy of scale. Last year the A220 was in danger. Airbus sealed orders with Moxie, JetBlue, ALC, and top off orders with Delta as well as JetBlue.

The E2s must get more customers to receive those easy top orders (AirBaltic and rumors if Korean air too).

I think the E2-195 will do well. But as of now it is another 717. Boeing couldn't save that plane. I hope the sell many PW1900G shipsets!!!

Momentum has an advantage. It is time for Embrer to create their own luck as it looks like the venture with Boeing will take a long time.

Lightsaber


As I see it, the JetBlue order was one that Embraer needed to win, as the mainline-sized E2 is likely shut out of the North American market, unless Aeromexico decides on some for Aerolitoral (Aeromexico Connect). Moxy has already announced a sale-leaseback with GECAS of the first 9 A220-300s from its order book.

Now, as for IAG, I do see the A320neo as being too large for certain markets like Switzerland and as others have said, Florence. That would require the A220-300, which could also fit into Aer Lingus for markets where the A320 is too much plane but nothing else is smaller, after the A319s were transferred from Aer Lingus to Vueling. The A220 is a plane for frequency as well...and could that be used to expand Anisec as well?

The A220 would constitute a new model for European airlines, other than airBaltic, but you're unlikely to be flying them longer than 4 hours and it's lighter than the A319. I'm actually surprised that LO didn't consider the A220 as that would have better economics than the 737---I doubt that LO needs the range of the 737-800 or 737 MAX 8.
 
TUGMASTER
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 4:21 pm

Sorry..... I’ve missed something here..
What exactly do BACF need an BCS1/3 at LCY for...?
The JFK will almost certainly stop when cross rail opens in 12 months or so.
The Ejets already fit well into LCY. And are capable of pretty much all BACF needs.
The BCS1 is a squeeze....

The Max is replacing Level/Vueling/BA LGW.
The Neo’s Are replacing the old 319/320’s

I just don’t see the need for IAG to buy the BCS1/3
 
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lightsaber
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:21 pm

TUGMASTER wrote:
Sorry..... I’ve missed something here..
What exactly do BACF need an BCS1/3 at LCY for...?
The JFK will almost certainly stop when cross rail opens in 12 months or so.
The Ejets already fit well into LCY. And are capable of pretty much all BACF needs.
The BCS1 is a squeeze....

The Max is replacing Level/Vueling/BA LGW.
The Neo’s Are replacing the old 319/320’s

I just don’t see the need for IAG to buy the BCS1/3

IAG has a bid to replace the E-190s. For 26 as noted up thread.

I believe the JFK flight is still viable. Almost certainly, cityflier is looking to expand. Previous links note the A220-300 is hoped to be certified. There will be growth.

I see a need for more narrowbodies at IAG. Or have they given up to Ryanair, EasyJet, Wizz, and others?

Lightsaber
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SteelChair
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 08, 2019 5:38 pm

I have to think that short stage length will tip the balance in the favor of the E2. Regrettably.

It would be interesting to know the specifics of the scope clause at BA. Scope clauses in the USA have, imho, made the E2 un-economic at the mainline and too big for the regionals. All of this has also made the rumored A220-500 a virtual certainty imho.

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