VV
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:34 am

fcogafa wrote:
I seem to recall hearing that some seats are 'Block booked' by the big banks so BA get the money if the seats are filled or not


If it is the case then it is very interesting to note those "big banks" only booked 118 return flights in 2018.
 
Andy33
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:01 am

CRJ900 wrote:
BA CityFlyer also operates leisure flights with their E-jets from other airports on the weekend, and if this is a growing market, they may want aircraft with more seats, like 106 seats at 30 inch pitch on the E190-E2 or 125 seats at 30 inch pitch on the A220-100. Capacity may have to be restricted on some flights departing LCY but can go full from other longer runways to minimise economic loss. They'll have to pay the pilots a bit more but revenue will be higher so that should be bearable.
If BA go for the A220-100, they can have one or two in JFK-config and the rest with 125 seats, pilots and cabin crew can fly both configs. The A220-300 can be a nice replacement for A319 if BA want a 150-seat aircraft in a few years.


Under the current pilot scope agreement, only BA mainline pilots can operate planes with 100 seats or more. So either the agreement needs to be comprehensively renegotiated, or all the CityFlyer pilots need to be transferred to mainline if any A221s with 125 seats (or E2s with 106 seats) fly with CityFlyer. At the moment the BA pilots are threatening to strike over a pay claim, so co-operation on either option is unlikely unless and until the pay claim is met. And of course as soon as you have more than 100 seats in a plane, you need additional cabin crew under UK CAA, EASA and indeed FAA regulations, whether the seats are occupied or not. Whether the cost of an additional crew member, additional pilot wages and better employment conditions is more than met by the extra revenue and improved fuel efficiency is of course what IAG will be calculating when they assess the bids under the RFP.
And really, in a few years there will be no A319s left to replace. I'll spell it out again. There are 43 in the BA fleet today, 33 based at Heathrow and 10 at Gatwick. 11 of those 33 at Heathrow go in the next 6 months, replaced by A32xneos. After the LOI announced last month, we know that Gatwick (but not Heathrow) will get 737MAX in future, that's their A319s gone. There are more A32xneos due at Heathrow next year, and more A319s will leave the fleet. Note that none of the A320s are currently projected to leave, other than those based at Gatwick, BA are upgauging the fleet, and they already have the replacements on order (or LOI) for all but 15 of the A319s. Add to that the requirement for Heathrow based planes to handle containerised baggage (which the A22x doesn't) and seeing them as an LHR A319 replacement is a pipe dream.
 
Cunard
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Fri Jul 12, 2019 12:19 pm

Andy33

You are absolutely correct with everything you have stated in your excellent post but their are certain individuals on this thread who clearly want to avoid the truth of the matter with one in particular, all I can say is that certain individual grinds my gears :-)
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lightsaber
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:08 pm

IAG is asking for bids, not BA. Obviously whatever aircraft is bought and flown by cityflier will have 98 or 99 seats.

Last I looked, IAG owns 3 other airlines (other than BA/cityflier) that could fly the A220.

What prevents Air Lingua or Iberia or Vueling? While most of their flights would obviously be elsewhere, but it is IAG making the decision. I see synergies of a joint order. E.g. 26 A220-100 for cityflier and then a batch for IB and other IAG Airlines. If BA doesn't need any, that is fine. But IB certainly would benefit.

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VV
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:22 pm

lightsaber wrote:
IAG is asking for bids, not BA. Obviously whatever aircraft is bought and flown by cityflier will have 98 or 99 seats.

Last I looked, IAG owns 3 other airlines (other than BA/cityflier) that could fly the A220.

What prevents Air Lingua or Iberia or Vueling? While most of their flights would obviously be elsewhere, but it is IAG making the decision. I see synergies of a joint order. E.g. 26 A220-100 for cityflier and then a batch for IB and other IAG Airlines. If BA doesn't need any, that is fine. But IB certainly would benefit.

Lightsaber


Perhaps all IAG's airlines go to T5 at Heathrow where containerized baggage is absolutely mandatory.
 
Andy33
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Fri Jul 12, 2019 3:59 pm

VV wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
IAG is asking for bids, not BA. Obviously whatever aircraft is bought and flown by cityflier will have 98 or 99 seats.

Last I looked, IAG owns 3 other airlines (other than BA/cityflier) that could fly the A220.

What prevents Air Lingua or Iberia or Vueling? While most of their flights would obviously be elsewhere, but it is IAG making the decision. I see synergies of a joint order. E.g. 26 A220-100 for cityflier and then a batch for IB and other IAG Airlines. If BA doesn't need any, that is fine. But IB certainly would benefit.

Lightsaber


Perhaps all IAG's airlines go to T5 at Heathrow where containerized baggage is absolutely mandatory.


Rather a pointless comment, Iberia do use T5, with a mixture of A320/21 and widebodies; Aer Lingus use T2 which isn't all-containerised, Vueling and Level don't go to Heathrow at all. I know this is an obsession with you.
 
WayexTDI
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:04 pm

Andy33 wrote:
VV wrote:
Perhaps all IAG's airlines go to T5 at Heathrow where containerized baggage is absolutely mandatory.


Rather a pointless comment, Iberia do use T5, with a mixture of A320/21 and widebodies; Aer Lingus use T2 which isn't all-containerised, Vueling and Level don't go to Heathrow at all. I know this is an obsession with you.

VV has 2 obsessions:
- containerized baggaged at LHR;
- A220-300 potential certification and operation from LCY.

I wouldn't be surprised is he/she never even sets foot in the London area...
 
digitalcloud
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:29 pm

VV wrote:
I have just checked the flights to and from JFK. During the full year 2018, there were only 118 return flights from LCY.


Considering it's a 6x weekly service I find that hard to believe.
Last edited by digitalcloud on Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
Cunard
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Fri Jul 12, 2019 4:30 pm

Andy33 wrote:
VV wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
IAG is asking for bids, not BA. Obviously whatever aircraft is bought and flown by cityflier will have 98 or 99 seats.

Last I looked, IAG owns 3 other airlines (other than BA/cityflier) that could fly the A220.

What prevents Air Lingua or Iberia or Vueling? While most of their flights would obviously be elsewhere, but it is IAG making the decision. I see synergies of a joint order. E.g. 26 A220-100 for cityflier and then a batch for IB and other IAG Airlines. If BA doesn't need any, that is fine. But IB certainly would benefit.

Lightsaber


Perhaps all IAG's airlines go to T5 at Heathrow where containerized baggage is absolutely mandatory.


Rather a pointless comment, Iberia do use T5, with a mixture of A320/21 and widebodies; Aer Lingus use T2 which isn't all-containerised, Vueling and Level don't go to Heathrow at all. I know this is an obsession with you.


And this is the individual that grinds my gears, he has issues for sure!
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
VV
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:36 pm

digitalcloud wrote:
VV wrote:
I have just checked the flights to and from JFK. During the full year 2018, there were only 118 return flights from LCY.


Considering it's a 6x weekly service I find that hard to believe.


I find it very hard to believe too.
Perhaps some people here have very solid information about it
 
Cunard
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:50 pm

VV

It seems that you have a problem in believing anything, what it does seem like that you have your own personal agenda, isn't it time for you to grow up!
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
VV
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:53 pm

Cunard wrote:
VV

It seems that you have a problem in believing anything, what it does seem like that you have your own personal agenda, isn't it time for you to grow up!


I sincerely do not understand why I found so few flights between LCY and JFK in 2018.

Since people here say that the route is quite popular I find it hard to believe there were so few flights last year.

If you have better information than the one I've got then I am very happy to hear what you have to offer.
 
Skywatcher
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:06 pm

It does seem that BBD put a lot of hype into the LCY certification effort. I'm now thinking that it's not going to obtain as many resulting orders as was once hoped. Is Swiss permitted "open sky" (i.e. operations to anywhere in the EU) operations at LCY or only to Switzerland?

You would think that IAG is large enough to require and obtain a good deal on the A-100/300 no?
My sense is that if an order does happen that Embraer is desperate enough to give the E2-195 away at this point.
 
Cunard
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Fri Jul 12, 2019 7:29 pm

VV wrote:
Cunard wrote:
VV

It seems that you have a problem in believing anything, what it does seem like that you have your own personal agenda, isn't it time for you to grow up!


I sincerely do not understand why I found so few flights between LCY and JFK in 2018.

Since people here say that the route is quite popular I find it hard to believe there were so few flights last year.

If you have better information than the one I've got then I am very happy to hear what you have to offer.


BTW you don't ''hear'' anything on a.net instead you read it on a.net, there is a huge difference.

You have been informed on numerous occasions but you have decided to ignore the information provided and to be honest I'm not personally going to respond to you in any way whatsoever, I have my opinion about you as do others and I'm not going to deal with you.
94 Countries, 327 Destinations Worldwide, 32 Airlines, 29 Aircraft Types, 182 Airports, 335 Flights.
 
VV
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:13 pm

Skywatcher wrote:
It does seem that BBD put a lot of hype into the LCY certification effort. I'm now thinking that it's not going to obtain as many resulting orders as was once hoped. Is Swiss permitted "open sky" (i.e. operations to anywhere in the EU) operations at LCY or only to Switzerland?

You would think that IAG is large enough to require and obtain a good deal on the A-100/300 no?
My sense is that if an order does happen that Embraer is desperate enough to give the E2-195 away at this point.


I guess the case of LCY is indeed overblown.

As far as A220-100, A220-300, E190-E2 and E195-E2, it all depends on the airline to decide. I guess they know how to make good business decision.

KLM taked 787, AFR takes A350.
KLM signed an LoI for E2. So why wouldn't AFR commit to A220?

IAG has a lot of airlines in the group so there is a possibility they would take both aircraft too. After all, they have a lot of A320 and they have just decided to sign an LoI for 737 MAX.
 
yyztpa2
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:28 am

VV wrote:
Cunard wrote:
VV

It seems that you have a problem in believing anything, what it does seem like that you have your own personal agenda, isn't it time for you to grow up!


I sincerely do not understand why I found so few flights between LCY and JFK in 2018.

Since people here say that the route is quite popular I find it hard to believe there were so few flights last year.

If you have better information than the one I've got then I am very happy to hear what you have to offer.



This should provide a recent history on frequency of BA1 at least back to Oct 2018. Seems to operate 6 of 7 days a week with adjustments around major Holiday seasons.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ba1.
 
Bhoy
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:45 am

yyztpa2 wrote:
VV wrote:
Cunard wrote:
VV

It seems that you have a problem in believing anything, what it does seem like that you have your own personal agenda, isn't it time for you to grow up!


I sincerely do not understand why I found so few flights between LCY and JFK in 2018.

Since people here say that the route is quite popular I find it hard to believe there were so few flights last year.

If you have better information than the one I've got then I am very happy to hear what you have to offer.



This should provide a recent history on frequency of BA1 at least back to Oct 2018. Seems to operate 6 of 7 days a week with adjustments around major Holiday seasons.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ba1.

By definition within it can't operate daily - LCY is closed between Noon Saturday and Sunday early afternoon as a concession for their operating licence.
 
Bhoy
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:53 am

Andy33 wrote:
Rather a pointless comment, Iberia do use T5, with a mixture of A320/21 and widebodies; Aer Lingus use T2 which isn't all-containerised, Vueling and Level don't go to Heathrow at all. I know this is an obsession with you.

Not quite true - Vueling have one flight a day at LHR to/from LCG (A Coruña) operated by A320. It operates out of Terminal 3.
 
VV
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:08 am

Bhoy wrote:
yyztpa2 wrote:

This should provide a recent history on frequency of BA1 at least back to Oct 2018. Seems to operate 6 of 7 days a week with adjustments around major Holiday seasons.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ba1.

By definition within it can't operate daily - LCY is closed between Noon Saturday and Sunday early afternoon as a concession for their operating licence.


Okay, I now have multiple conflicting information.

From the information I was told coming from OAG database, there were only 118 return LCY-JFK flights in 2018.

Someone here said LCY-JFK is operated 6/7 days a week.

Another one said LCY is closed between between Noon Saturday and Sunday early afternoon thus it would limit the number of flights to and from LCY.

Can someone please provide us with an objective assessment on how big LCY-JFK operation is?
 
oschkosch
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:55 am

The LCY-JFK and vice versa service is operated 6 weekly.
https://www.routesonline.com/news/38/ai ... -oct-2016/

Furthermore, this flight allows a very late check-in, you can check your bags 20 minutes prior to departure in LCY, which is unique for a transatlantic flight.
 
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nikeson13
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:55 am

BA001 LCY-JFK 9:40-14:05/12:35-17:05 MTWThFSu
BA002 JFK-LCY 18:25-6:30+1 MTWThFSu
No operations on Saturdays and differ in the holidays. Flights do not cross curfew.
Prices are either the same for LHR/LCY-JFK and JFK-LHR/LCY, but LCY ops sometimes command a premium depending on the day.
Next week (7/26) asking for over $6k in business ($6604)
Nikolas
 
VV
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:10 am

nikeson13 wrote:
BA001 LCY-JFK 9:40-14:05/12:35-17:05 MTWThFSu
BA002 JFK-LCY 18:25-6:30+1 MTWThFSu
No operations on Saturdays and differ in the holidays. Flights do not cross curfew.
Prices are either the same for LHR/LCY-JFK and JFK-LHR/LCY, but LCY ops sometimes command a premium depending on the day.
Next week (7/26) asking for over $6k in business ($6604)



When you say "differ in the holidays" do you mean summer holidays or bank holidays (about 12 per year)?

It looks like there is an equivalent of about 20 weeks of full operation per year. Most probably the route seems to be operated during the equivalent of about 6 full months per year, which correspond quite well with 118 return flights in full year 2018.

You said, "Next week (7/26) asking for over $6k in business ($6604)".

Somebody mentioned here that all the seats are business. Is that correct?
 
Andy33
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sat Jul 13, 2019 8:58 am

Yes the flight is all-business. There are a total of 32 seats per flight (so 192 seats each way per week). This is one of many reasons why this thread and many many others drastically overestimate the importance of the service to BA.
At 6 days a week (can't operate all 7 due to curfew at LCY) there are a total of 312/313 potential operating days per year. I would question the reliability of any data source or data query that returns a result of 118 flights per year, if you remove the planned 4 week August break you get 288 days, and odd non-flying days around public holidays and Christmas still won't get below 250 days. Even if you also adjust for flights that diverted to LGW due to the not uncommon fog at LCY you'll only lose another 10 days or so, and these flight numbers will show up as having operated.
 
VV
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:21 am

Andy33 wrote:
Yes the flight is all-business. There are a total of 32 seats per flight (so 192 seats each way per week). This is one of many reasons why this thread and many many others drastically overestimate the importance of the service to BA.
...


Yes, you are absolutely right.
 
Lofty
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:07 am

Just for clarity
VY Operates 2 flights into LHR T3 on some days.

Loose load a/c can and at times do operate into T5. Wetlease and on occasions when we have to borrow LGWs fleet.
 
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Kindanew
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:13 am

My contact at city flier thinks this will go to the E2.
Apparently BA have taken delivery of some Embraer specific training aids.
 
Lofty
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:22 am

Until you see the deal done never rule anything out with IAG! who would have thought they would take the MAX
 
yyztpa2
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sat Jul 13, 2019 3:21 pm

VV wrote:
nikeson13 wrote:
BA001 LCY-JFK 9:40-14:05/12:35-17:05 MTWThFSu
BA002 JFK-LCY 18:25-6:30+1 MTWThFSu
No operations on Saturdays and differ in the holidays. Flights do not cross curfew.
Prices are either the same for LHR/LCY-JFK and JFK-LHR/LCY, but LCY ops sometimes command a premium depending on the day.
Next week (7/26) asking for over $6k in business ($6604)



When you say "differ in the holidays" do you mean summer holidays or bank holidays (about 12 per year)?

It looks like there is an equivalent of about 20 weeks of full operation per year. Most probably the route seems to be operated during the equivalent of about 6 full months per year, which correspond quite well with 118 return flights in full year 2018.

You said, "Next week (7/26) asking for over $6k in business ($6604)".

Somebody mentioned here that all the seats are business. Is that correct?


It doesn't seem as if you are one willing to do much of your own detailed research. You seem more apt at getting everyone to prove your own annunciations incorrect and then 'fake news' the replies to align with your original guesses.

Use the link provided for flightradar24,com and start counting the number of flights for BA1. It should give you the past 8 months. Even easier, go to flightaware.com and ask for flight history on BA1 or BA2. BA2 is easier since it doesn't include SNN stop whereas BA1 has 2 segments reporting (divide by 2). Maybe if you want to be perceived as a knowledgable contributor, you might even want to sign up for some billable services.
 
VV
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:01 pm

yyztpa2 wrote:
It doesn't seem as if you are one willing to do much of your own detailed research. You seem more apt at getting everyone to prove your own annunciations incorrect and then 'fake news' the replies to align with your original guesses.

Use the link provided for flightradar24,com and start counting the number of flights for BA1. It should give you the past 8 months. Even easier, go to flightaware.com and ask for flight history on BA1 or BA2. BA2 is easier since it doesn't include SNN stop whereas BA1 has 2 segments reporting (divide by 2). Maybe if you want to be perceived as a knowledgable contributor, you might even want to sign up for some billable services.


You are not right.

I did a very detailed research using a professional database (OAG) and found only 118 return flights between JFK and LCY in 2018. Yes, it is a paying professional database, and someone extracted the whole LCY operation in 2018 for me.
https://www.oag.com/

It is posted in comment number #145 here.

I was just very surprised the number was so low. If you have any solid source of information please provide us with some insights. I already did my due diligence.
 
VV
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:10 pm

Mea culpa. The guy downloaded only from 1 July 2018 to 31 Dec 2018 or six months.

I will ask him to download the full year 2018 when I am back in the office.

This said, the number for the whole year would not be far from 300, which remains a very small number.
 
BAorNoWay
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sat Jul 13, 2019 4:27 pm

Not sure if it helps, but total pax figures for the BA001/BA002 route in 2018 was 10,514.

Seems fairly decent to me for a route operated by a single aircraft configured with 32 seats.

Note, this figure does represent a 12% decline on 2017, but this could be for a variety of factors including operational disruption, maintenance etc.

Ref: CAA Statistics:

https://www.caa.co.uk/uploadedFiles/CAA/Content/Standard_Content/Data_and_analysis/Datasets/Airport_stats/Airport_data_2018_annual/Table_12_1_Intl_Air_Pax_Route_Analysis.pdf
 
VV
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sat Jul 13, 2019 5:39 pm

VV wrote:
Mea culpa. The guy downloaded only from 1 July 2018 to 31 Dec 2018 or six months.

I will ask him to download the full year 2018 when I am back in the office.

This said, the number for the whole year would not be far from 300, which remains a very small number.


I will just do like an engineer. Let's do some corrections to the data.

Since the data was for July to December 2018 then let assume the first six months 2018 were complete.

6 months * 4 weeks * 6 time a week = 6 * 4* 6 =144 return flights from Jan to Jun 2018.

Approximated total flights in 2018: 144 + 118 = 262 return flights.
With 32 seats return = 262 * 32 * 2 = 16,768 seats.

As mentioned by one comment the total passenger count in 2018 was 10,514 or +/- 65% average load factor.
 
VV
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:46 pm

I am now wondering if it would not be reasonable to have two Gulfstream G650 would not do the job better than one A318 and it is faster too.
 
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lightsaber
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sat Jul 13, 2019 7:54 pm

VV, for shortfield Dassaults are better than Gulfstream aircraft. 3x day with them might be the best solution LCY-JFK if the A220-100 cannot go non-stop.

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NeBaNi
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sun Jul 14, 2019 3:24 pm

VV wrote:
I am now wondering if it would not be reasonable to have two Gulfstream G650 would not do the job better than one A318 and it is faster too.

lightsaber wrote:
VV, for shortfield Dassaults are better than Gulfstream aircraft. 3x day with them might be the best solution LCY-JFK if the A220-100 cannot go non-stop.

Lightsaber

Does BA operate a separate pilot pool for the LCY A318 though? I can see the A320-family commonality being big. Does BA want to retrain pilots and have a separate pilot pool for 2-3x daily Gulfstream/Dassauly flying out of LCY? And if that is the inclination, wouldn't it be better to just contract our that flying? Would unions even allow this?
 
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lightsaber
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:05 pm

NeBaNi wrote:
VV wrote:
I am now wondering if it would not be reasonable to have two Gulfstream G650 would not do the job better than one A318 and it is faster too.

lightsaber wrote:
VV, for shortfield Dassaults are better than Gulfstream aircraft. 3x day with them might be the best solution LCY-JFK if the A220-100 cannot go non-stop.

Lightsaber

Does BA operate a separate pilot pool for the LCY A318 though? I can see the A320-family commonality being big. Does BA want to retrain pilots and have a separate pilot pool for 2-3x daily Gulfstream/Dassauly flying out of LCY? And if that is the inclination, wouldn't it be better to just contract our that flying? Would unions even allow this?

If they can, business jet flying will be contracted out. But if the A220-100 can do it non-stop, if the stop in Ireland, with associated costs, is dropped and it is a much more efficient airframe that would both lower costs and possibly carry more, albeit narrower, lie flat seats.

So I see an economical path to more TATL.
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mfranjic
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:21 pm


lightsaber wrote:
VV, for shortfield Dassaults are better than Gulfstream aircraft. 3x day with them might be the best solution LCY-JFK if the A220-100 cannot go non-stop.


Image.Dassault Aviation SA.Falcon 7X, MSN 207, reg. F-HGHF, MTOW: 31.751 kg / 70.000 lb, powered by three Image.PW307A, twin-shaft, medium-bypass, turbofan engines (fan diameter: 812,8 mm / 32,0 in; BPR: 4,24:1; eng. architecture: 1F–(4+1r)HPC2HPT–3LPT), OPR: 20,58:1, each rated at 28,49 kN / 2.905 kgf / 6.405 lbf, took off on 02. May 2014 from Teterboro Airport at 8:04 AM local time, with test pilot Philippe Deleume and Dassault operational pilot Olivier Froment at the controls. Three passengers were on board. The aircraft was fully equipped for normal operation with HUD, EVS and FalconCabin HD+ cabin management system. Thanks to its three turbofans and ultra-efficient aerodynamic design, the Dassault Aviation SA Falcon 7X can fly 5.950 nmi / 11.020 km non-stop at Mach 0,80. But over shorter distances, it can cruise at speeds up to its maximum operating limit of Mach 0,90. Originally 27,10 kN / 2.763 kgf / 6.092 lbf thrust growth version of the PW306 engine, smaller than the PW308, PW307A engine featurs swept-blade fan, increased core airflow, low NOx emissions annular combustor, increased turbine capacity and a more efficient exhaust mixer, integrated propulsion system including Macchi/Hurel Dubois nacelle and thrust-reverser and dual channel Full Authority Digital Electronic Control System (FADEC).
…...
Image
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Five hours and 54 minutes later, at 6:58 PM local time, it touched down on the short 4.948 ft / 1.508 m runway at the London City Airport.
…...
For most of the 3.465 nmi / 6.452 km trip, the Falcon 7X cruised at Mach 0,88. Both passengers and pilots reported a comfortable flight, testimony to the precision and smoothness of the Falcon 7X’s aerodynamic design and digital flight controls.
…...
The record has been sent to the Fédération Aéronautique Internationale in Switzerland for recognition as an official world record.
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The remarkable efficiency of the Falcon 7X was underscored during the outbound flight from London City Airport ( LCY ) to Teterboro Airport ( TEB ) on 30. April 2014. The plane departed runway 27 with four passengers on board and, because of the airport's short runway, carried a fuel load of 19.700 lbs / 8.936 kg, 62 % of the Falcon 7X’s 31.940 lb / 14.490 kg fuel capacity. It reached Teterboro Airport in 7 hours 35 min, flying at its optimum long-range speed setting of Mach 0,80. Landing was accomplished in IFR conditions with 2.600 lbs / 1.180 kg of fuel remaining, more than sufficient to meet IFR reserves requirements.
…...
Moreover, the Falcon 7X can fly into and out of airfields like London City, La Mole/St. Tropez, France and Saanen, Switzerland that are typically inaccessible to large cabin business jets. The Falcon 7X provides one of the longest range of any business jet out of London City, allowing it to easily serve destinations as distant as New York or Dubai.
…...
Image
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Image
Images above: Dassault Falcon 7X landing on the London City Airport’s RWY 09. In the background The O2 arena is visible. Behind it are West India Docks and Canary Wharf
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Unveiled in May 2014 at EBACE, the addition to the growing Falcon business jet family, 19-seat tri-jet Dassault Aviation SA.Falcon 8X, entered into the service in October 2016, after receiving both EASA and FAA certifications in June 2016. It also received FalconEye certification and London City approval in the first quarter of 2017.
…...
The Falcon 8X; MTOW: 33.113 kg / 73.000 lb, powered by three Image.PW307D, twin-shaft, medium-bypass, turbofan engines (fan diameter: 812,8 mm / 32,0 in; BPR: 4,24:1; eng. architecture: 1F–(4+1r)HPC2HPT–3LPT), OPR: 20,58:1, each rated at 29,91 kN / 3.050 kgf / 6.725 lbf, offers a range of 6.450 nmi / 11.945 km and all the advanced technological features of the popular Falcon 7X from which it was derived, including the very quiet and very comfortable cabin. The Falcon 8X also features the greatest range and the longest cabin in the Falcon line, along with the most extensive selection of cabin configurations available on any large cabin business jet.
…...
Ultra-efficient wing, derived from the Falcon 7X’s structure, has been redesigned to minimize the overall aircraft drag during cruise while achieving a 600 lb weight saving. It also features optimized leading edge profile and winglets. These improvements increased significantly the lift to drag ratio. Dassault Aviation SA has introduced a number of refinements and enhancements to the aircraft’s design, including an extra fuel tank within the centre fuselage section, which enables the Falcon 8X to carry up to 15.800 kg / 34.900 lb of fuel, compared with 14.500 kg / 31.967 lb carried by the Falcon 7X.
…...
Image
Image above: Dassault Falcon 8X
…...
Mario
"Only a life lived for others is a life worthwhile" - Albert Einstein
 
VV
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sun Jul 14, 2019 7:47 pm

lightsaber wrote:
VV, for shortfield Dassaults are better than Gulfstream aircraft. 3x day with them might be the best solution LCY-JFK if the A220-100 cannot go non-stop.

Lightsaber



It seems Gulfstream already started the process to get LCY ops approval.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... trials-lcy
 
fcogafa
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:03 pm

The Global Express is certified for LCY also, recently one flew LCY to Los Angeles with an 11 pax load , amazing off a short runway

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... on-city-la
 
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lightsaber
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sun Jul 14, 2019 8:26 pm

Fcogafa, well there is one answer. Although a global 7500 costs about as much as 2.5 to 3 A220-100. Amazing, I'm sure many will fly in and out of LCY.

BA could fly those.

Nitpick, 2400lb of payload simulator. 11 people tax fuel more due to climate control (more cooling required).

Lightsaber
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lightsaber
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sun Jul 14, 2019 9:15 pm

I started looking into the cost per hour of these business jets:
https://www.avbuyer.com/articles/jets-c ... 550-111907

I'm not sure BA could make a profit. Basically, it costs more than the A220-100 per flight, with less payload.

There is a reason business jets are used less.

Costs for 8x and Global 5000, before depreciation $9 to $10 per nm:

https://www.avbuyer.com/articles/jets-c ... 000-112444

Businesses jets aren't built for 90,000+ hours (90,000 FH Ebraer E1 and E2 or Airbus A220 current LOV). LOV sets the inspection interval (c-check) of 3,750 hours:

https://das.falconjet.com/apex/f?p=2000:1858:0::NO:::

That implies a 45,000 FH LOV. Or in this service, scrap the plane After 9 years for TATL duty (estimate 14 hours/day). Recall the A318 should match the 120,000 FH of the A320.

Errr... I cannot make daily scheduled business jets work due to the high cost to buy and maintain them. E.g.,. Pratt brags about 10,000 hour engine service intervals because that is better than the competition:

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... ry-service

Commercial engines are good for 20,000 cycles and over 30,000 hours.

So if BA is to do this, it must be an A220. If they only go E2, one service is dropped.

Lightsaber
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BA777FO
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Sun Jul 14, 2019 10:13 pm

NeBaNi wrote:
VV wrote:
I am now wondering if it would not be reasonable to have two Gulfstream G650 would not do the job better than one A318 and it is faster too.

lightsaber wrote:
VV, for shortfield Dassaults are better than Gulfstream aircraft. 3x day with them might be the best solution LCY-JFK if the A220-100 cannot go non-stop.

Lightsaber

Does BA operate a separate pilot pool for the LCY A318 though? I can see the A320-family commonality being big. Does BA want to retrain pilots and have a separate pilot pool for 2-3x daily Gulfstream/Dassauly flying out of LCY? And if that is the inclination, wouldn't it be better to just contract our that flying? Would unions even allow this?


There is a subset of A320 pilots qualified for the LCY route, typically they'll "pre-bid" for 1 or 2 LCY trips on their line and then fill in the rest of the month with regular A320 work. So although it's a separate group qualified to fly it, they are for all intents and purposes part of the A320 pilot pool. Similar qualifications used to apply for INN, JMK and somewhere else but I'm not sure if everyone is now qualified to fly those or not.

For a small bizjet operation, that would likely fall outside of scope unless it was operated out of Gatwick or Heathrow. But the economics don't really stack up anyway. With the introduction of the Club Suite on mainline aircraft from Heathrow plus the Elizabeth Line/Crossrail line opening I'd be surprised if the A318 service goes on much past a few more years, certainly not much after a 3rd runway opens if it stays on track for ~2025.

There was talk a little while after the JFK service started of expanding it to include BOS and IAD, but it seems it's just easier to add the extra J capacity by sticking an A380 on those routes.
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:02 am

I can’t understanding the obcession of some here in bringing a new type to a fleet just for a flight from monday to friday with a stop for immigration services.
And, as said before, pilots contracts limit the number of seats of BAC ...
 
KD5MDK
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 15, 2019 4:38 am

I liked the temporary thought of return of tri-jets to commercial service...
 
VV
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 15, 2019 5:59 am

AirFrance-KLM decided to have both E2 and A220.

Do you think IAG could do the same?

Or do you think KLM will be forced to drop their LoI for E2 and go with A220?
 
Motorhussy
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:47 am

Whichever manufacturer wins this order, it will give a good indication as to the veracity of WW’s rationale for ordering the MAX.
come visit the south pacific
 
VV
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:57 am

Motorhussy wrote:
Whichever manufacturer wins this order, it will give a good indication as to the veracity of WW’s rationale for ordering the MAX.


True, especially he didn't mention anything about 737-7.
 
eagles94
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:38 pm

There’s rumours that BACF is going to drop the British Airways name, and become a separate (albeit entirely IAG owned) entity, thus allowing them to carry more than 100 pax per flight. BACF is incredibly successful, profitable and popular, so would comfortably sustain itself on its own. If anything, it would be detrimental to BA to lose it......
 
seansasLCY
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:46 pm

eagles94 wrote:
There’s rumours that BACF is going to drop the British Airways name, and become a separate (albeit entirely IAG owned) entity, thus allowing them to carry more than 100 pax per flight. BACF is incredibly successful, profitable and popular, so would comfortably sustain itself on its own. If anything, it would be detrimental to BA to lose it......


That wouldn’t surprise me. They already have different offerings onboard.

While we’re here can we end this obsession with Crossrail killing LCY. It’s not going to happen. Just like when the Heathrow Express opened, it didn’t kill taxi rides to Heathrow. There’s still a long line of 7 Series and S Class taking businessmen to Heathrow. LCY will remains a far easier airport than LHR with short check-in deadlines and a convenient location for Docklands.
 
dfdubflyer
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Re: IAG deciding between A220 and Embraer E2 for BA Cityflyer

Mon Jul 15, 2019 1:58 pm

seansasLCY wrote:
eagles94 wrote:
There’s rumours that BACF is going to drop the British Airways name, and become a separate (albeit entirely IAG owned) entity, thus allowing them to carry more than 100 pax per flight. BACF is incredibly successful, profitable and popular, so would comfortably sustain itself on its own. If anything, it would be detrimental to BA to lose it......


That wouldn’t surprise me. They already have different offerings onboard.

While we’re here can we end this obsession with Crossrail killing LCY. It’s not going to happen. Just like when the Heathrow Express opened, it didn’t kill taxi rides to Heathrow. There’s still a long line of 7 Series and S Class taking businessmen to Heathrow. LCY will remains a far easier airport than LHR with short check-in deadlines and a convenient location for Docklands.


I dont think anything is saying that Crossrail would kill City altogether, however the cost of this flight could very quickly outweigh the benefit for BA of this service once it is complete. Those fliers aren't going to defect to Virgin or Norwegian if BA cuts it either -- these are their bread and butter people

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