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IslandRob
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:28 am

AirwayBill wrote:
No surprise that the 777X is definitely ruled out...

Who says the 777X is definitely ruled out? Where did you read or hear that?

In this article: https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... agm-475578

You'll find the following quote by the Korean Air CEO:

Walter Cho: “We have a lot of need for widebodies. We are looking at all the options. Since we already have a 787 fleet there is a very high possibility we would expand our fleet on the 787. The 777-X is coming up and would be a good replacement for our current 777.”

-ir
Last edited by IslandRob on Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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flyinggoat
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:32 am

I wouldn’t be surprised to see a split 787-10 and A350-1000 order. The two compliment each other well.
 
grbauc
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Wed Jun 05, 2019 5:57 am

lightsaber wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/reports/korean-air-new-chief-walter-cho-in-spotlight-as-seoul-hosts-iata-agm-475578
This CAPA article is not behind the paywall and is certainly interesting for this topic.

About widebodies:

Walter Cho: “We have a lot of need for widebodies. We are looking at all the options. Since we already have a 787 fleet there is a very high possibility we would expand our fleet on the 787. The 777-X is coming up and would be a good replacement for our current 777.”
“Our market has grown especially in trans pacific into the US and Canada. It is growing significantly and we are seeing needs for larger aircraft intra-Asia as well.”
“We have too many fleet types. Consolidating to one large order would help us reduce maintenance type and training as well.”
“I’m very pleased with our current (widebody} fleet – both Airbus and Boeing. But they are starting to show their age so we have to do replacement.”

They'll definitely buy more 787s. Comments on 777X is certainly interesting.

About A220:

Walter Cho: “The aircraft has performed extremely well. We are very pleased with it. Passenger reaction has been very good. Service reliability is extremely well. We look forward to a very good operation.”
“It hasn’t been used to start new routes but has replaced 737-800s from smaller cities in South Korea which were too big. It has actually shown a lot of benefits.”

Will they buy additional A220s? They did have 10 options and 10 purchase rights.

This year has a shortage of orders. Now us the time to renegotiate. I'd love to see a top off A220 order.

Lightsaber



great point.
 
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:04 am

ITSTours wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Korean Air will probably buy both since they buy everything. Their aerospace division makes parts for the A350 so its likely they will buy those, why else would they have 10 747-8. They make 748 parts too. More 787-9 almost a certainty, 777-9 needed to replace older 777 and 744 still around. 787-10 if the the range has been extended, with the Air New Zealand order last week maybe KAL knows what ANZ knows too. Could this be a string of orders for the 787-10.

GE powered planes highly likely as KAL does maintanence on them. Whatever they buy les hope they buy lots.


Historically true. But new CEO (or the son of the deceased) Walter Cho may think differently, as he says he wants fleet consolidation.
Also, KCGI, a PEF and the second largest shareholder of Hanjin KAL, wants Korean Air to spinoff the aerospace division (to make another Lufthansa Technik basically).
This may impact the long-term fleet choice decision as well.



Words matter and he said consolidation helps with maintenance and training costs.. He truly might but your changing things by adding to the quote.
 
ITSTours
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:28 am

grbauc wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
Korean Air will probably buy both since they buy everything. Their aerospace division makes parts for the A350 so its likely they will buy those, why else would they have 10 747-8. They make 748 parts too. More 787-9 almost a certainty, 777-9 needed to replace older 777 and 744 still around. 787-10 if the the range has been extended, with the Air New Zealand order last week maybe KAL knows what ANZ knows too. Could this be a string of orders for the 787-10.

GE powered planes highly likely as KAL does maintanence on them. Whatever they buy les hope they buy lots.


Historically true. But new CEO (or the son of the deceased) Walter Cho may think differently, as he says he wants fleet consolidation.
Also, KCGI, a PEF and the second largest shareholder of Hanjin KAL, wants Korean Air to spinoff the aerospace division (to make another Lufthansa Technik basically).
This may impact the long-term fleet choice decision as well.



Words matter and he said consolidation helps with maintenance and training costs.. He truly might but your changing things by adding to the quote.


“We have too many fleet types now. Consolidating in one large order will help reduce maintenance costs and pilot training,”

This is the actual quote.... from Reuter, October 2018. Apparently the CAPA article is just a reiteration of what he has said.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-asia ... SKCN1MT0AZ

Okay, I will change my statement. He did say they have too many fleet types, and he did say one large order helps, so, I think he seems to want consolidation.
 
ZK-NBT
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:50 am

ITSTours wrote:
grbauc wrote:
ITSTours wrote:

Historically true. But new CEO (or the son of the deceased) Walter Cho may think differently, as he says he wants fleet consolidation.
Also, KCGI, a PEF and the second largest shareholder of Hanjin KAL, wants Korean Air to spinoff the aerospace division (to make another Lufthansa Technik basically).
This may impact the long-term fleet choice decision as well.



Words matter and he said consolidation helps with maintenance and training costs.. He truly might but your changing things by adding to the quote.


“We have too many fleet types now. Consolidating in one large order will help reduce maintenance costs and pilot training,”

This is the actual quote.... from Reuter, October 2018. Apparently the CAPA article is just a reiteration of what he has said.
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-asia ... SKCN1MT0AZ

Okay, I will change my statement. He did say they have too many fleet types, and he did say one large order helps, so, I think he seems to want consolidation.



Like I said earlier they have older 77E/773/332/333 which would be the first part of the replacement cycle so more 789s and 78J in the mix, then rest of 77E fleet, I think where the 77X comes in is for some of the older 77W which oldest is 2007? So maybe 2025? Then more 77X to replace A380/748 in the early 2030s. They also have very new A330s and 77Ws which will be around likely until after the 748/A380 replacement.
 
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:51 am

If the 777x really is out then I am picking a 35K order for 777-300 replacement with more 787s including 78J to replace 772s and A330s. So yes, that means RR if the 35K is in. Fingers crossed.
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ZK-NBT
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Wed Jun 05, 2019 6:58 am

NZ321 wrote:
If the 777x really is out then I am picking a 35K order for 777-300 replacement with more 787s including 78J to replace 772s and A330s. So yes, that means RR if the 35K is in. Fingers crossed.


I’m not sure what the issue is with RR and KE but there seems to be one?

The 77X would replace IMO some 77W and later maybe A389/748, I’ve always thought KE had to many aircraft TBH, I could definitely see 78J as a regional workhorse and 789 replacement 77E. 78J with MTOW increase could replace some 77W when the time comes.

They can’t reduce types that easily as I said so will they add yet another in the A350? Atleast right now?
 
ITSTours
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:24 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
NZ321 wrote:
If the 777x really is out then I am picking a 35K order for 777-300 replacement with more 787s including 78J to replace 772s and A330s. So yes, that means RR if the 35K is in. Fingers crossed.


I’m not sure what the issue is with RR and KE but there seems to be one?

The 77X would replace IMO some 77W and later maybe A389/748, I’ve always thought KE had to many aircraft TBH, I could definitely see 78J as a regional workhorse and 789 replacement 77E. 78J with MTOW increase could replace some 77W when the time comes.

They can’t reduce types that easily as I said so will they add yet another in the A350? Atleast right now?


KE currently operates zero RR engine now. The last airplane with RR was Fokker 100.
As mentioned above, KE wants to repair the engine themselves. And as you know RR only allows the engine MRO in their own network. This is the issue.
Remember how long AF-KLM fought with RR over MRO rights and hence delayed A350 deliveries. Like 6 years?

So, if KE orders lots of A350s (and/or with A330neos), like at least 30 total, then KE might be able to obtain the MRO right as AF-KLM did.
In such a case, KE might purchase A350s.

But when 787s have GE engines, 787-10 can do transpacific and they're happy with 787-9, why bother with RR?
 
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Wed Jun 05, 2019 7:44 am

Delta28L wrote:
A300 gone
A330 replaced by 787s
A380s gone in 10 years
A220 brand new
A321 will probably be transferred to a LCC that Korean Air owns


None of which refutes my point that KE certainly isn't a "only buy Boeing" airline. But thanks for playing. :wave:
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frigatebird
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Wed Jun 05, 2019 10:35 am

LAX772LR wrote:
Strato2 wrote:
A350-1000 to replace 747-8i. :duck:

That (if it ever happened) actually be a fairly sound decision.
Not quite as much of an even-match as a 779 order would be, but then again, who says it has to be even.


If KE wants to reduce the number of widebody types they use, dumping their A380s and 747s would actually be the easiest, the number of frames is limited compared to their A330 and 777 fleets. But replacing it with the A350 would mean yet another type. 777X at least would offer commonality with KE's current 777 fleet. But this academic anyway, it's about replacing older A330s and 77E/773s, therefore no 777X order to be expected yet.

LAX772LR wrote:
BBJ777X wrote:
pabloeing wrote:
The new range in the B787-10 can open a lot of deals in the coming years.......

Indeed. It has effectively killed the A350-900 in current form.

Based on ____?


Hopefully, Boeing will reveal specs of the higher MTOW 787s soon, I expect at Paris. It should worry Airbus probably, the 787-10 would be able to compete a lot better with the A359. But kill it? No way :shakehead: Pabloeing's optimism is warranted, BBJ777X' conclusion way too soon.
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Fri Jun 14, 2019 2:45 pm

"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
h1fl1er
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Fri Jun 14, 2019 5:54 pm

Airbus could certainly use a major order given the now five and a half year sales drought on the 350 line but all the momo and KE's existing fleet seem to be aligned the other way and that plane is responsible for the drought- the 789. with UA doing SFO-ICN on 78x and NZ buying that model as well, I think the industry is dawning on the realization that the 78x is the "777 replacement". it will eat the 777x's lunch too unless you need massive payload
 
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:11 pm

h1fl1er wrote:
Airbus could certainly use a major order given the now five and a half year sales drought on the 350 line but all the momo and KE's existing fleet seem to be aligned the other way and that plane is responsible for the drought- the 789. with UA doing SFO-ICN on 78x and NZ buying that model as well, I think the industry is dawning on the realization that the 78x is the "777 replacement". it will eat the 777x's lunch too unless you need massive payload

The 772s maybe, but the 787 is not a 773/W replacement. Hence, the smallest 777X (the 8) is larger than the largest 787 (the 10).
 
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Fri Jun 14, 2019 6:15 pm

AC77X wrote:
h1fl1er wrote:
Airbus could certainly use a major order given the now five and a half year sales drought on the 350 line but all the momo and KE's existing fleet seem to be aligned the other way and that plane is responsible for the drought- the 789. with UA doing SFO-ICN on 78x and NZ buying that model as well, I think the industry is dawning on the realization that the 78x is the "777 replacement". it will eat the 777x's lunch too unless you need massive payload

The 772s maybe, but the 787 is not a 773/W replacement.

The 787-10 could potentially replace the the 773As. There are only 4 of them so it may not make sense to have a small regional sub fleet of a larger aircraft.

Most of the 77Ws are young (one was just delivered last month) so they still have a while until replacement.
 
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:00 pm

AC77X wrote:
h1fl1er wrote:
Airbus could certainly use a major order given the now five and a half year sales drought on the 350 line but all the momo and KE's existing fleet seem to be aligned the other way and that plane is responsible for the drought- the 789. with UA doing SFO-ICN on 78x and NZ buying that model as well, I think the industry is dawning on the realization that the 78x is the "777 replacement". it will eat the 777x's lunch too unless you need massive payload

The 772s maybe, but the 787 is not a 773/W replacement. Hence, the smallest 777X (the 8) is larger than the largest 787 (the 10).



only if the LF is near 1 or you carry lots of cargo. if the actual lf you're seeing plus any growth projection is at or lower than the seatcount you can get on a 78x at the range you need, you go with the smaller plane

Ws fly around all the time with empty seats. The 78x doesn't have the W's range right now but those are a minority of routes. the 78x has like 91% of the seats in "spec" as the W
 
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:17 pm

h1fl1er wrote:
AC77X wrote:
h1fl1er wrote:
Airbus could certainly use a major order given the now five and a half year sales drought on the 350 line but all the momo and KE's existing fleet seem to be aligned the other way and that plane is responsible for the drought- the 789. with UA doing SFO-ICN on 78x and NZ buying that model as well, I think the industry is dawning on the realization that the 78x is the "777 replacement". it will eat the 777x's lunch too unless you need massive payload

The 772s maybe, but the 787 is not a 773/W replacement. Hence, the smallest 777X (the 8) is larger than the largest 787 (the 10).



only if the LF is near 1 or you carry lots of cargo. if the actual lf you're seeing plus any growth projection is at or lower than the seatcount you can get on a 78x at the range you need, you go with the smaller plane

Ws fly around all the time with empty seats. The 78x doesn't have the W's range right now but those are a minority of routes. the 78x has like 91% of the seats in "spec" as the W



By "we" who are you referring to? If it is not KE than it is irrelevant as each airline have their own strategy and niche market for aircraft which might suit one airline but not others.
 
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:20 pm

h1fl1er wrote:
AC77X wrote:
h1fl1er wrote:
Airbus could certainly use a major order given the now five and a half year sales drought on the 350 line but all the momo and KE's existing fleet seem to be aligned the other way and that plane is responsible for the drought- the 789. with UA doing SFO-ICN on 78x and NZ buying that model as well, I think the industry is dawning on the realization that the 78x is the "777 replacement". it will eat the 777x's lunch too unless you need massive payload

The 772s maybe, but the 787 is not a 773/W replacement. Hence, the smallest 777X (the 8) is larger than the largest 787 (the 10).



only if the LF is near 1 or you carry lots of cargo. if the actual lf you're seeing plus any growth projection is at or lower than the seatcount you can get on a 78x at the range you need, you go with the smaller plane

Ws fly around all the time with empty seats. The 78x doesn't have the W's range right now but those are a minority of routes. the 78x has like 91% of the seats in "spec" as the W

Oh ok, I didn't understand your post correctly. I thought you were suggesting that the 787 is a direct 777 replacement, if you know what I mean, even though the 777 is significantly larger. But I don't think the statement that the entire industry believes this is correct. This mostly depends on a specific airline. Maybe that will work for KE (I don't know much about them), but for airlines like AC, for example, the 787 does not serve as a 777 replacement.
 
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Fri Jun 14, 2019 7:41 pm

AC77X wrote:
Oh ok, I didn't understand your post correctly. I thought you were suggesting that the 787 is a direct 777 replacement, if you know what I mean, even though the 777 is significantly larger. But I don't think the statement that the entire industry believes this is correct. This mostly depends on a specific airline. Maybe that will work for KE (I don't know much about them), but for airlines like AC, for example, the 787 does not serve as a 777 replacement.


totally cool

i'm lookin at the industry and it's downsizing frames, picking high efficiency frames in any size class. the 77 operators who need mad payload will buy 777xs. those who don't unless they have crazy range needs go with 78X.

especially if you're not packing them in like on a W with 366. if you fly 100 less passengers, you can swap that for a 78X. the seatmakers are getting crazy efficient with space in J now.

there's a thread on 78x mtow +6t. if that's the case plus you drop 10t pax, you can fly pretty much wherever with a 78x, albeit sans payload. haulers like DL heck they still went and grabbed a 77L this last year right? assume because they need something that can lift insane weight over the pacific. not sure most airlines need the cargo capability of their Ws, just the seatcount
 
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:15 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
Fingers crossed for Boeing; they could use some good news :)


If Boeing wants good news, then I would suggest they start by getting their own house in order! The entire 737MAX debacle was their own doing and the initial response to the situation was pathetic. The other day, I read a Bloomberg Business article which stated that there were no commercial aircraft orders for Boeing, in April and May. The company has a long road ahead of them to restore trust and transparency to their customers and by extension, the flying public. I'm betting that Korean Air goes with Airbus for this imminent order.
 
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:41 pm

MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
Fingers crossed for Boeing; they could use some good news :)


If Boeing wants good news, then I would suggest they start by getting their own house in order! The entire 737MAX debacle was their own doing and the initial response to the situation was pathetic. The other day, I read a Bloomberg Business article which stated that there were no commercial aircraft orders for Boeing, in April and May. The company has a long road ahead of them to restore trust and transparency to their customers and by extension, the flying public. I'm betting that Korean Air goes with Airbus for this imminent order.


huh? May27 NZ ordered 78X. $2.7B list order.

the max has nothing to do with the 787 or 777x, please leave the pollution over on the max thread
 
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:45 pm

janders wrote:


i think people are prematurely thinking the 78J upgrade has killed the a350/77x. there's still a pretty big difference in those frames.
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musman9853
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:48 pm

MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
Fingers crossed for Boeing; they could use some good news :)


If Boeing wants good news, then I would suggest they start by getting their own house in order! The entire 737MAX debacle was their own doing and the initial response to the situation was pathetic. The other day, I read a Bloomberg Business article which stated that there were no commercial aircraft orders for Boeing, in April and May. The company has a long road ahead of them to restore trust and transparency to their customers and by extension, the flying public. I'm betting that Korean Air goes with Airbus for this imminent order.


there hasnt been many orders this year period. airbus so far has booked 66 but has had 125 cancelled. in april airbus sold 2 a330s and 3 a350s. in may they only sold a single a320.
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Fri Jun 14, 2019 8:57 pm

h1fl1er wrote:
MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
Fingers crossed for Boeing; they could use some good news :)


If Boeing wants good news, then I would suggest they start by getting their own house in order! The entire 737MAX debacle was their own doing and the initial response to the situation was pathetic. The other day, I read a Bloomberg Business article which stated that there were no commercial aircraft orders for Boeing, in April and May. The company has a long road ahead of them to restore trust and transparency to their customers and by extension, the flying public. I'm betting that Korean Air goes with Airbus for this imminent order.


huh? May27 NZ ordered 78X. $2.7B list order.

the max has nothing to do with the 787 or 777x, please leave the pollution over on the max thread


I can't speak for why the Bloomberg article didn't list the NZ order, unless it was published just before the order was announced?

While the MAX issues do not affect the 777 or 787, it all traces back to the culture and management at Boeing and that shouldn't be ignored. 737MAX troubles resulting in 346 needless deaths is not pollution, in my opinion.
 
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Momo1435
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:26 pm

The NZ order has not been firmed up yet, it's just a commitment for now. Bloomberg just looked at the actual order book updates. Where they have also seen that Airbus only booked new orders for 6 planes in the last 2 months. You could also ask if they too have troubles selling planes right now...

The MAX issues will only have a short term effect on Boeing's orders, not all airlines would want to announce new Boeing orders right now. But that doesn't mean that they are all going Airbus right now, they will just delay the decision for a couple of month. Like it's often done anyway in the months before the summer airshows, Airbus does this pretty much every year.

If KE goes Airbus for this order it will just mean that Airbus gave them a better deal then Boeing.
 
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:36 pm

The A350-1000 seems almost inevitable at KE eventually, but I don't think it's what they need right now. In the short term I expect they need more 787s, both -9 and -10, and that's what I would guess to be the outcome of this order. We'll see...
 
YellowJ
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Fri Jun 14, 2019 9:56 pm

MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
h1fl1er wrote:
MSPSXMFLIER wrote:

If Boeing wants good news, then I would suggest they start by getting their own house in order! The entire 737MAX debacle was their own doing and the initial response to the situation was pathetic. The other day, I read a Bloomberg Business article which stated that there were no commercial aircraft orders for Boeing, in April and May. The company has a long road ahead of them to restore trust and transparency to their customers and by extension, the flying public. I'm betting that Korean Air goes with Airbus for this imminent order.


huh? May27 NZ ordered 78X. $2.7B list order.

the max has nothing to do with the 787 or 777x, please leave the pollution over on the max thread


I can't speak for why the Bloomberg article didn't list the NZ order, unless it was published just before the order was announced?

While the MAX issues do not affect the 777 or 787, it all traces back to the culture and management at Boeing and that shouldn't be ignored. 737MAX troubles resulting in 346 needless deaths is not pollution, in my opinion.


It is indeed pollution in this specific thread, because the MAX is not in the running for the order. Therefore whatever missteps Boeing had with the MAX has zero credibility to the discussion and undoubtedly towards whatever decision KE makes regarding this new widebody order.
 
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MSPSXMFLIER
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:08 am

YellowJ wrote:
MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
h1fl1er wrote:

huh? May27 NZ ordered 78X. $2.7B list order.

the max has nothing to do with the 787 or 777x, please leave the pollution over on the max thread


I can't speak for why the Bloomberg article didn't list the NZ order, unless it was published just before the order was announced?

While the MAX issues do not affect the 777 or 787, it all traces back to the culture and management at Boeing and that shouldn't be ignored. 737MAX troubles resulting in 346 needless deaths is not pollution, in my opinion.


It is indeed pollution in this specific thread, because the MAX is not in the running for the order. Therefore whatever missteps Boeing had with the MAX has zero credibility to the discussion and undoubtedly towards whatever decision KE makes regarding this new widebody order.


Well, we just disagree.

I'm merely responding to the comment posted by Sooner787, stating his desire to see some good news come Boeing's way and my thoughts on what it should take to get that to happen.
 
ITSTours
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:14 am

seabosdca wrote:
The A350-1000 seems almost inevitable at KE eventually, but I don't think it's what they need right now. In the short term I expect they need more 787s, both -9 and -10, and that's what I would guess to be the outcome of this order. We'll see...


KE has not even received its last 777-300ER yet. 350-1000 will be in a distant future, even if it is inevitable. At that point the A350neo with UltraFan might be a reality. I assume KE will definitely try to secure the MRO rights at that point, unless they spinoff their aerospace division.
 
nikeherc
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:30 am

MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
YellowJ wrote:
MSPSXMFLIER wrote:

I can't speak for why the Bloomberg article didn't list the NZ order, unless it was published just before the order was announced?

While the MAX issues do not affect the 777 or 787, it all traces back to the culture and management at Boeing and that shouldn't be ignored. 737MAX troubles resulting in 346 needless deaths is not pollution, in my opinion.


It is indeed pollution in this specific thread, because the MAX is not in the running for the order. Therefore whatever missteps Boeing had with the MAX has zero credibility to the discussion and undoubtedly towards whatever decision KE makes regarding this new widebody order.


Well, we just disagree.

I'm merely responding to the comment posted by Sooner787, stating his desire to see some good news come Boeing's way and my thoughts on what it should take to get that to happen.


Is that what it would take or what it should take? By saying should, you seem to be implying that you don’t believe Boeing deserves a wide body order because of the issues with the Max. Saying would implies that Boeing can earn the order. At least that’s my take.
DC6 to 777 and most things in between
 
9Patch
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:41 am

MSPSXMFLIER wrote:
While the MAX issues do not affect the 777 or 787, it all traces back to the culture and management at Boeing and that shouldn't be ignored. 737MAX troubles resulting in 346 needless deaths is not pollution, in my opinion.

There are a couple of threads in which to discuss the 737 MAX.
Quit trying to hijack this one.
The mods should be deleting your off-topic posts.
 
ITSTours
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sat Jun 15, 2019 12:49 am

For some people who are not familiar with Korean Air:

1) KE is known for a wide seat pitch. Their widebodies have 34" for economy class.
2) Thus, most of the configurations are low density. Except for 787-9. But the seat pitch is still 33-34" as their 787-9 has very low numbers of premium seats.
3) Their cargo operation is large. Both for freighters and belly cargos. South Korea relies much of its economy on the exports.
4) They got premium passengers. Those premium pax are very loyal to KE. (This is the luxury what Asiana does not enjoy.)
5) They got their own manufacturing and MRO operations. This is why they have so many variants from both Airbus and Boeing.
They want to buy the aircraft for which they produce the parts. And they maintain the engines by themselves.
This is the primary reason KE avoids the Rolls-Royce engines (they don't operate a single one) as RR requires the engine maintenance in their network.
Thus A330neo and A350 are not in the league for a while, unless KE obtains the MRO rights for the RR engines.
 
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dongone04
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sat Jun 15, 2019 2:10 am

AsiaTravel wrote:
I sense an A350 order. Their fleet clearly lacks diversity!

Cho said that their fleet has too many types now. He wants to streamline the fleet, but I think the A350 won`t be the choice because they haven`t used aircrafts with Rolls-Royce engines after the retirement of their Fokker 100s in 2004. Also, they tend to do the maintenance at their Tech Center in Busan, but if they use RR engines, they have to send their aircrafts far away to receive maintenance. I remember the nearest is in Singapore, which is about 6 hours away from Seoul.
 
grbauc
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sat Jun 15, 2019 3:07 am

IslandRob wrote:
AirwayBill wrote:
No surprise that the 777X is definitely ruled out...

Who says the 777X is definitely ruled out? Where did you read or hear that?

In this article: https://centreforaviation.com/analysis/ ... agm-475578

You'll find the following quote by the Korean Air CEO:

Walter Cho: “We have a lot of need for widebodies. We are looking at all the options. Since we already have a 787 fleet there is a very high possibility we would expand our fleet on the 787. The 777-X is coming up and would be a good replacement for our current 777.”

-ir




I agree 777X is not ruled out.. Silly comment. So many times people read what they want to read or hear what they want to hear not what the words say or is said...
 
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MoKa777
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:19 am

ITSTours wrote:
For some people who are not familiar with Korean Air:

1) KE is known for a wide seat pitch. Their widebodies have 34" for economy class.
2) Thus, most of the configurations are low density. Except for 787-9. But the seat pitch is still 33-34" as their 787-9 has very low numbers of premium seats.
3) Their cargo operation is large. Both for freighters and belly cargos. South Korea relies much of its economy on the exports.
4) They got premium passengers. Those premium pax are very loyal to KE. (This is the luxury what Asiana does not enjoy.)
5) They got their own manufacturing and MRO operations. This is why they have so many variants from both Airbus and Boeing.
They want to buy the aircraft for which they produce the parts. And they maintain the engines by themselves.
This is the primary reason KE avoids the Rolls-Royce engines (they don't operate a single one) as RR requires the engine maintenance in their network.
Thus A330neo and A350 are not in the league for a while, unless KE obtains the MRO rights for the RR engines.


Great points, this adds a lot of context.
Never be proud. Always be grateful.
 
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PolarRoute
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:46 am

dongone04 wrote:
Also, they tend to do the maintenance at their Tech Center in Busan, but if they use RR engines, they have to send their aircrafts far away to receive maintenance. I remember the nearest is in Singapore, which is about 6 hours away from Seoul.


Manila has one.
 
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PolarRoute
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sat Jun 15, 2019 4:50 am

ITSTours wrote:
For some people who are not familiar with Korean Air:

1) KE is known for a wide seat pitch. Their widebodies have 34" for economy class.
2) Thus, most of the configurations are low density. Except for 787-9. But the seat pitch is still 33-34" as their 787-9 has very low numbers of premium seats.
3) Their cargo operation is large. Both for freighters and belly cargos. South Korea relies much of its economy on the exports.
4) They got premium passengers. Those premium pax are very loyal to KE. (This is the luxury what Asiana does not enjoy.)
5) They got their own manufacturing and MRO operations. This is why they have so many variants from both Airbus and Boeing.
They want to buy the aircraft for which they produce the parts. And they maintain the engines by themselves.
This is the primary reason KE avoids the Rolls-Royce engines (they don't operate a single one) as RR requires the engine maintenance in their network.
Thus A330neo and A350 are not in the league for a while, unless KE obtains the MRO rights for the RR engines.



:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
This is Boeing's order to lose.
 
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zkojq
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:07 am

I think they will buy a dozen 777-9s purely for ego reasons.
First to fly the 787-9
 
h1fl1er
Posts: 121
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sat Jun 15, 2019 8:48 pm

ITSTours wrote:
For some people who are not familiar with Korean Air:

1) KE is known for a wide seat pitch. Their widebodies have 34" for economy class.
2) Thus, most of the configurations are low density. Except for 787-9. But the seat pitch is still 33-34" as their 787-9 has very low numbers of premium seats.
3) Their cargo operation is large. Both for freighters and belly cargos. South Korea relies much of its economy on the exports.
4) They got premium passengers. Those premium pax are very loyal to KE. (This is the luxury what Asiana does not enjoy.)
5) They got their own manufacturing and MRO operations. This is why they have so many variants from both Airbus and Boeing.
They want to buy the aircraft for which they produce the parts. And they maintain the engines by themselves.
This is the primary reason KE avoids the Rolls-Royce engines (they don't operate a single one) as RR requires the engine maintenance in their network.
Thus A330neo and A350 are not in the league for a while, unless KE obtains the MRO rights for the RR engines.


on the cargo issue, #3, are they hauling 350 level cargo or 777 level cargo?

i guess if they're making hay with their 77s, they will replace with the same type and haul away
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:04 pm

seabosdca wrote:
The A350-1000 seems almost inevitable at KE eventually, but I don't think it's what they need right now. In the short term I expect they need more 787s, both -9 and -10, and that's what I would guess to be the outcome of this order. We'll see...


In real life they need 777-X...
Last edited by Checklist787 on Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:17 pm, edited 3 times in total.
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sat Jun 15, 2019 9:13 pm

PolarRoute wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
For some people who are not familiar with Korean Air:

1) KE is known for a wide seat pitch. Their widebodies have 34" for economy class.
2) Thus, most of the configurations are low density. Except for 787-9. But the seat pitch is still 33-34" as their 787-9 has very low numbers of premium seats.
3) Their cargo operation is large. Both for freighters and belly cargos. South Korea relies much of its economy on the exports.
4) They got premium passengers. Those premium pax are very loyal to KE. (This is the luxury what Asiana does not enjoy.)
5) They got their own manufacturing and MRO operations. This is why they have so many variants from both Airbus and Boeing.
They want to buy the aircraft for which they produce the parts. And they maintain the engines by themselves.
This is the primary reason KE avoids the Rolls-Royce engines (they don't operate a single one) as RR requires the engine maintenance in their network.
Thus A330neo and A350 are not in the league for a while, unless KE obtains the MRO rights for the RR engines.



:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark:
This is Boeing's order to lose.


zkojq wrote:
I think they will buy a dozen 777-9s purely for ego reasons.


Your comments are incomprehensible. Please try again ! :duck:
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...
 
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zkojq
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:51 pm

Checklist787 wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
The A350-1000 seems almost inevitable at KE eventually, but I don't think it's what they need right now. In the short term I expect they need more 787s, both -9 and -10, and that's what I would guess to be the outcome of this order. We'll see...


In real life they need 777-X...



If the 787-10 can do all their routes, then there is little need for the 777-9. As I've been saying for a while, MTOW increases on the 787-10 will be a big impediment to 777-9 sales. If the 777-9 is ordered by KE, it will be to "keep up with the Johnses" (CX+SQ).
First to fly the 787-9
 
rbavfan
Posts: 3633
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:53 am

Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:03 am

LY777 wrote:
AsiaTravel wrote:
I sense an A350 order. Their fleet clearly lacks diversity!


Their widebody fleet consists of A330s, A380s, 777-200/300(ER), 747-8, 787s.
I think it is already a wide variety of a/c


Yes the only things missing are A350 & A320 series
 
rbavfan
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:06 am

ITSTours wrote:
Additional 787-9 obvious.
With a rumored MTOW increase, 787-10 is highly possible. (Formerly Walter Cho said he would not buy -10 as it cannot do LAX-ICN. United showed they can do SFO-ICN recently.)


Yes and ICN-LAX is 292nm farther than ICN-SFO. At max limits that could be a problem.
 
rbavfan
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:17 am

behramjee wrote:
I support the B787 over here with a mix of -9s and -10s to be ordered purely because I believe in fleet standardization and KE already operate 10 B789s and no A350s. Hence there is no need really to add another fleet type into the mix which would make their WBs to be 4 types ie 748 777 787 350 :eye roll:

The B781 can do YVR, SEA, SFO, HNL, Eastern Europe, DXB and intra Asia whilst the B789s can build new long haul routes as well as boost frequencies on current ones.


Many national carriers mix up the fleet. Easier to change types on need or replacements for groundings.
 
Yossarian22
Posts: 158
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:23 am

Sooner787 wrote:
Fingers crossed for Boeing; they could use some good news :)


Why?
 
ITSTours
Posts: 600
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:52 am

zkojq wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
The A350-1000 seems almost inevitable at KE eventually, but I don't think it's what they need right now. In the short term I expect they need more 787s, both -9 and -10, and that's what I would guess to be the outcome of this order. We'll see...


In real life they need 777-X...



If the 787-10 can do all their routes, then there is little need for the 777-9. As I've been saying for a while, MTOW increases on the 787-10 will be a big impediment to 777-9 sales. If the 777-9 is ordered by KE, it will be to "keep up with the Johnses" (CX+SQ).


787-10 is not very suited for a longhaul 3-class configuration with First class. Korean Air has those First passengers.
While I wouldn't deny there are some degrees of ego, but it is not purely ego.
If Asiana purchases 777X they I would say it is 100% ego (like their A380.) This is not going to happen though.
 
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PolarRoute
Posts: 87
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sun Jun 16, 2019 5:53 am

zkojq wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
The A350-1000 seems almost inevitable at KE eventually, but I don't think it's what they need right now. In the short term I expect they need more 787s, both -9 and -10, and that's what I would guess to be the outcome of this order. We'll see...


In real life they need 777-X...



If the 787-10 can do all their routes, then there is little need for the 777-9. As I've been saying for a while, MTOW increases on the 787-10 will be a big impediment to 777-9 sales. If the 777-9 is ordered by KE, it will be to "keep up with the Johnses" (CX+SQ).


KE's CEO have said in the past that 781 isn't sufficient for them since it can't do ICN-LAX. The 781 certainly is capable of doing ICN-LAX-ICN leg with full cabin, so one would think he had heavy cargo loads in mind when he pointed out insufficient range.

In fact, they do have big cargo operations, and need 748, 388 replacement anyways. I don't have the insight of their cargo payload data and can't draw conclusion whether the 6t MTOW increase enables their need on ICN-LAX-ICN, but 779 certainly have space in KE's fleet except for 'ego reasons'.
 
grbauc
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:22 am

dongone04 wrote:
AsiaTravel wrote:
I sense an A350 order. Their fleet clearly lacks diversity!

Cho said that their fleet has too many types now. He wants to streamline the fleet, but I think the A350 won`t be the choice because they haven`t used aircrafts with Rolls-Royce engines after the retirement of their Fokker 100s in 2004. Also, they tend to do the maintenance at their Tech Center in Busan, but if they use RR engines, they have to send their aircrafts far away to receive maintenance. I remember the nearest is in Singapore, which is about 6 hours away from Seoul.




He did not say that WRONG. Words matter and he said consolidation helps with maintenance and training costs.. Streamlining is a option but he does not say that is what there plan is for sure.

“We have too many fleet types now. Consolidating in one large order will help reduce maintenance costs and pilot training,” It's a option they might go with.
 
Checklist787
Posts: 566
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Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:27 am

zkojq wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
The A350-1000 seems almost inevitable at KE eventually, but I don't think it's what they need right now. In the short term I expect they need more 787s, both -9 and -10, and that's what I would guess to be the outcome of this order. We'll see...


In real life they need 777-X...



If the 787-10 can do all their routes, then there is little need for the 777-9. As I've been saying for a while, MTOW increases on the 787-10 will be a big impediment to 777-9 sales. If the 777-9 is ordered by KE, it will be to "keep up with the Johnses" (CX+SQ).


This is completely wrong. The 777-9X carries nearly, 100 more passengers than the 787-10 with 25-30 tons of freight more (payload range) ...

Boeing is not stupid to launch these two aircraft in 2013 to canibalize the one and the other, 5 years later..

How can we call KE more egocentric than ANA, JAL or ME3 for example?

Why this special denomination for them? :roll:
"No limit to my poooWer!!!
Do it! "...

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