ITSTours
Posts: 361
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:36 am

Checklist787 wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:

In real life they need 777-X...



If the 787-10 can do all their routes, then there is little need for the 777-9. As I've been saying for a while, MTOW increases on the 787-10 will be a big impediment to 777-9 sales. If the 777-9 is ordered by KE, it will be to "keep up with the Johnses" (CX+SQ).


This is completely wrong. The 777-9X carries nearly, 100 more passengers than the 787-10 with 25-30 tons of freight more (payload range) ...

Boeing is not stupid to launch these two aircraft in 2013 to canibalize the one and the other, 5 years later..

How can we call KE more egocentric than ANA, JAL or ME3 for example?

Why this special denomination for them? :roll:


Wait, ME3 (especially Etihad...) certainly runs on ego, don't they?
But anyway you cannot ever exclude ego for Korean chaebols. This is not to discredit 777-9X at all.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 6875
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:19 am

PolarRoute wrote:
zkojq wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:

In real life they need 777-X...



If the 787-10 can do all their routes, then there is little need for the 777-9. As I've been saying for a while, MTOW increases on the 787-10 will be a big impediment to 777-9 sales. If the 777-9 is ordered by KE, it will be to "keep up with the Johnses" (CX+SQ).


KE's CEO have said in the past that 781 isn't sufficient for them since it can't do ICN-LAX. The 781 certainly is capable of doing ICN-LAX-ICN leg with full cabin, so one would think he had heavy cargo loads in mind when he pointed out insufficient range.

In fact, they do have big cargo operations, and need 748, 388 replacement anyways. I don't have the insight of their cargo payload data and can't draw conclusion whether the 6t MTOW increase enables their need on ICN-LAX-ICN, but 779 certainly have space in KE's fleet except for 'ego reasons'.


KE have 10 748s oldest 5 years, 10 A380s oldest 8 years and 26 77Ws oldest 12 years newest 1 month. KE don’t need a replacement for any of these yet, even the oldest 77Ws for another 5 years.

The 779 will be a good 748/380 partial 77W replacement in 10 years but for now they have older 773/772/332/333 to replace, the 789/78J make a lot of sense, KE don’t use anything with RR now so that may rule out the A350.
 
User avatar
PolarRoute
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:56 pm

Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:34 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
PolarRoute wrote:
KE's CEO have said in the past that 781 isn't sufficient for them since it can't do ICN-LAX. The 781 certainly is capable of doing ICN-LAX-ICN leg with full cabin, so one would think he had heavy cargo loads in mind when he pointed out insufficient range.

In fact, they do have big cargo operations, and need 748, 388 replacement anyways. I don't have the insight of their cargo payload data and can't draw conclusion whether the 6t MTOW increase enables their need on ICN-LAX-ICN, but 779 certainly have space in KE's fleet except for 'ego reasons'.


KE have 10 748s oldest 5 years, 10 A380s oldest 8 years and 26 77Ws oldest 12 years newest 1 month. KE don’t need a replacement for any of these yet, even the oldest 77Ws for another 5 years.

The 779 will be a good 748/380 partial 77W replacement in 10 years but for now they have older 773/772/332/333 to replace, the 789/78J make a lot of sense, KE don’t use anything with RR now so that may rule out the A350.


Exactly. They have fairly young fleet as of now, but that doesn't mean they can't place an order for later delivery slots.

And my point was that regardless of precise timeline, there IS a place for 777X in KE's fleet, other than egoistic causes.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 6875
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sun Jun 16, 2019 7:39 am

PolarRoute wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
PolarRoute wrote:
KE's CEO have said in the past that 781 isn't sufficient for them since it can't do ICN-LAX. The 781 certainly is capable of doing ICN-LAX-ICN leg with full cabin, so one would think he had heavy cargo loads in mind when he pointed out insufficient range.

In fact, they do have big cargo operations, and need 748, 388 replacement anyways. I don't have the insight of their cargo payload data and can't draw conclusion whether the 6t MTOW increase enables their need on ICN-LAX-ICN, but 779 certainly have space in KE's fleet except for 'ego reasons'.


KE have 10 748s oldest 5 years, 10 A380s oldest 8 years and 26 77Ws oldest 12 years newest 1 month. KE don’t need a replacement for any of these yet, even the oldest 77Ws for another 5 years.

The 779 will be a good 748/380 partial 77W replacement in 10 years but for now they have older 773/772/332/333 to replace, the 789/78J make a lot of sense, KE don’t use anything with RR now so that may rule out the A350.


Exactly. They have fairly young fleet as of now, but that doesn't mean they can't place an order for later delivery slots.

And my point was that regardless of precise timeline, there IS a place for 777X in KE's fleet, other than egoistic causes.


For sure, sorry the quote function at times is confusing more so on a phone.

I don’t think they will order 779s this time round but I agree they will definitely operate the type in the long term.
 
Checklist787
Posts: 156
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:54 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
PolarRoute wrote:
zkojq wrote:


If the 787-10 can do all their routes, then there is little need for the 777-9. As I've been saying for a while, MTOW increases on the 787-10 will be a big impediment to 777-9 sales. If the 777-9 is ordered by KE, it will be to "keep up with the Johnses" (CX+SQ).


KE's CEO have said in the past that 781 isn't sufficient for them since it can't do ICN-LAX. The 781 certainly is capable of doing ICN-LAX-ICN leg with full cabin, so one would think he had heavy cargo loads in mind when he pointed out insufficient range.

In fact, they do have big cargo operations, and need 748, 388 replacement anyways. I don't have the insight of their cargo payload data and can't draw conclusion whether the 6t MTOW increase enables their need on ICN-LAX-ICN, but 779 certainly have space in KE's fleet except for 'ego reasons'.


KE have 10 748s oldest 5 years, 10 A380s oldest 8 years and 26 77Ws oldest 12 years newest 1 month. KE don’t need a replacement for any of these yet, even the oldest 77Ws for another 5 years.

The 779 will be a good 748/380 partial 77W replacement in 10 years but for now they have older 773/772/332/333 to replace, the 789/78J make a lot of sense, KE don’t use anything with RR now so that may rule out the A350.


This comment makes a lot more sense to me.

He is more founded :roll:

ZK-NBT wrote:

I don’t think they will order 779s this time round but I agree they will definitely operate the type in the long term.


No,

The sources clearly indicate an order of 777-X by KE very soon.

Most certainly with a delivery for 2025-2026.

Nothing prevents an order now!
Last edited by Checklist787 on Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
User avatar
PolarRoute
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:56 pm

Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sun Jun 16, 2019 8:59 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
PolarRoute wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

KE have 10 748s oldest 5 years, 10 A380s oldest 8 years and 26 77Ws oldest 12 years newest 1 month. KE don’t need a replacement for any of these yet, even the oldest 77Ws for another 5 years.

The 779 will be a good 748/380 partial 77W replacement in 10 years but for now they have older 773/772/332/333 to replace, the 789/78J make a lot of sense, KE don’t use anything with RR now so that may rule out the A350.


Exactly. They have fairly young fleet as of now, but that doesn't mean they can't place an order for later delivery slots.

And my point was that regardless of precise timeline, there IS a place for 777X in KE's fleet, other than egoistic causes.


For sure, sorry the quote function at times is confusing more so on a phone.

I don’t think they will order 779s this time round but I agree they will definitely operate the type in the long term.


Ha! Talk about friendly fire!

No worries, should have noticed it didn't make sense contextually.
 
ZK-NBT
Posts: 6875
Joined: Mon Oct 16, 2000 5:42 pm

Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sun Jun 16, 2019 9:26 am

Checklist787 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
PolarRoute wrote:

KE's CEO have said in the past that 781 isn't sufficient for them since it can't do ICN-LAX. The 781 certainly is capable of doing ICN-LAX-ICN leg with full cabin, so one would think he had heavy cargo loads in mind when he pointed out insufficient range.

In fact, they do have big cargo operations, and need 748, 388 replacement anyways. I don't have the insight of their cargo payload data and can't draw conclusion whether the 6t MTOW increase enables their need on ICN-LAX-ICN, but 779 certainly have space in KE's fleet except for 'ego reasons'.


KE have 10 748s oldest 5 years, 10 A380s oldest 8 years and 26 77Ws oldest 12 years newest 1 month. KE don’t need a replacement for any of these yet, even the oldest 77Ws for another 5 years.

The 779 will be a good 748/380 partial 77W replacement in 10 years but for now they have older 773/772/332/333 to replace, the 789/78J make a lot of sense, KE don’t use anything with RR now so that may rule out the A350.


This comment makes a lot more sense to me.

He is more founded :roll:

ZK-NBT wrote:

I don’t think they will order 779s this time round but I agree they will definitely operate the type in the long term.


No,

The sources clearly indicate an order of 777-X by KE very soon.

Most certainly with a delivery for 2025-2026.

Nothing prevents an order now!


Can you point me to ‘The sources’? A 2025/26 delivery would make sense to replace the oldest 77Ws however I just haven’t seen anything to indicate a possible order.

I will say this KE don’t seem to have a lot of logic a bit like TG they operate a lot more types than would be expected for an airline of that size and KE have F on all long haul routes and aircraft, which is changing at least on many routes losing F, not sure if aircraft will be reconfigured?
 
ITSTours
Posts: 361
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sun Jun 16, 2019 4:40 pm

ZK-NBT wrote:
Checklist787 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:

KE have 10 748s oldest 5 years, 10 A380s oldest 8 years and 26 77Ws oldest 12 years newest 1 month. KE don’t need a replacement for any of these yet, even the oldest 77Ws for another 5 years.

The 779 will be a good 748/380 partial 77W replacement in 10 years but for now they have older 773/772/332/333 to replace, the 789/78J make a lot of sense, KE don’t use anything with RR now so that may rule out the A350.


This comment makes a lot more sense to me.

He is more founded :roll:

ZK-NBT wrote:

I don’t think they will order 779s this time round but I agree they will definitely operate the type in the long term.


No,

The sources clearly indicate an order of 777-X by KE very soon.

Most certainly with a delivery for 2025-2026.

Nothing prevents an order now!


Can you point me to ‘The sources’? A 2025/26 delivery would make sense to replace the oldest 77Ws however I just haven’t seen anything to indicate a possible order.

I will say this KE don’t seem to have a lot of logic a bit like TG they operate a lot more types than would be expected for an airline of that size and KE have F on all long haul routes and aircraft, which is changing at least on many routes losing F, not sure if aircraft will be reconfigured?


Their newer A330s and 787s with first class actually have exactly same hard product with business class so there is no need of reconfiguration anyway.

Also as previously mentioned KE's various types are due to the fact they manufacture the parts of the plane. (That includes 330neo and 350) Not sure if it is a very efficient practice though.
 
User avatar
OA940
Posts: 1837
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Sun Jun 16, 2019 6:23 pm

Depends on the mission. If they want it for Asia and Oceania, the 78J is most likely. If they want it for Europe and North America my bet is on the A350. Yeah they have 789s but never say never when it comes to KE or TG
A350/CSeries = bae
 
ITSTours
Posts: 361
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:54 pm

There is a rumor that RR will lax the in-house MRO requirement. I don't know if it is in general or only for KE.

In such case the likelihood of KE ordering A330neo/A350 increases greatly.
 
jfk777
Posts: 6973
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:55 am

ZK-NBT wrote:
PolarRoute wrote:
zkojq wrote:


If the 787-10 can do all their routes, then there is little need for the 777-9. As I've been saying for a while, MTOW increases on the 787-10 will be a big impediment to 777-9 sales. If the 777-9 is ordered by KE, it will be to "keep up with the Johnses" (CX+SQ).


KE's CEO have said in the past that 781 isn't sufficient for them since it can't do ICN-LAX. The 781 certainly is capable of doing ICN-LAX-ICN leg with full cabin, so one would think he had heavy cargo loads in mind when he pointed out insufficient range.

In fact, they do have big cargo operations, and need 748, 388 replacement anyways. I don't have the insight of their cargo payload data and can't draw conclusion whether the 6t MTOW increase enables their need on ICN-LAX-ICN, but 779 certainly have space in KE's fleet except for 'ego reasons'.


KE have 10 748s oldest 5 years, 10 A380s oldest 8 years and 26 77Ws oldest 12 years newest 1 month. KE don’t need a replacement for any of these yet, even the oldest 77Ws for another 5 years.

The 779 will be a good 748/380 partial 77W replacement in 10 years but for now they have older 773/772/332/333 to replace, the 789/78J make a lot of sense, KE don’t use anything with RR now so that may rule out the A350.


Many airlines are dumping 10 year old A380, who says Korean is keeping them for 15 to 20 years ? The need for 777-9 may be here much sooner.
 
ITSTours
Posts: 361
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:33 am

jfk777 wrote:
ZK-NBT wrote:
PolarRoute wrote:

KE's CEO have said in the past that 781 isn't sufficient for them since it can't do ICN-LAX. The 781 certainly is capable of doing ICN-LAX-ICN leg with full cabin, so one would think he had heavy cargo loads in mind when he pointed out insufficient range.

In fact, they do have big cargo operations, and need 748, 388 replacement anyways. I don't have the insight of their cargo payload data and can't draw conclusion whether the 6t MTOW increase enables their need on ICN-LAX-ICN, but 779 certainly have space in KE's fleet except for 'ego reasons'.


KE have 10 748s oldest 5 years, 10 A380s oldest 8 years and 26 77Ws oldest 12 years newest 1 month. KE don’t need a replacement for any of these yet, even the oldest 77Ws for another 5 years.

The 779 will be a good 748/380 partial 77W replacement in 10 years but for now they have older 773/772/332/333 to replace, the 789/78J make a lot of sense, KE don’t use anything with RR now so that may rule out the A350.


Many airlines are dumping 10 year old A380, who says Korean is keeping them for 15 to 20 years ? The need for 777-9 may be here much sooner.


Because their A380s are capital leased. They can't just return the aircraft. After the lease term is finished those A380s will be KE owned aircraft.
 
MileHFL400
Posts: 642
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:42 am

Korean Air orders further 787’s

Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:51 am

Looks like Korean went for the 787 instead of 777-9 as expected?
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
upperdeckfan
Posts: 891
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2007 1:59 am

Re: Korean Air orders further 787’s

Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:52 am

Source?
748,744,742,741,772,773,762,763,
764, 789, 732,733,735,737,738,739,
752, 722, 717,74M,DC10,DC9,M82,
M83, M87, M88,310,319,320,321,332,
333, 343, 346,359,388,L1011,CR2,
CR7, CR9,CRK, E175,E190,ATR42,
DSH8, CS1,CS3
 
User avatar
frigatebird
Posts: 1656
Joined: Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:02 pm

Re: Korean Air orders further 787’s

Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:55 am

MileHFL400 wrote:
Looks like Korean went for the 787 instead of 777-9 as expected?

Well, many of their 77E and A330 were close to 20 years old, so these were up for replacement. So this 787 order (20x 787-10, of which 10 leased from ALC, and 10x 787-9) makes sense.
146,318/19/20/21, AB6,332,333,343,345,388, 722,732/3/4/5/G/8,9, 742,74E,744,752,762,763, 772,77E,773,77W,788 AT4/7,ATP,CRK,E75/90,F50/70
 
MileHFL400
Posts: 642
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:42 am

Re: Korean Air orders further 787’s

Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:56 am

Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
Miquel787
Posts: 79
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:11 am

Re: Korean Air orders further 787’s

Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:06 am

Congrats to Boeing! Good news for them.
 
MileHFL400
Posts: 642
Joined: Sat Dec 05, 2015 11:42 am

Re: Korean Air orders further 787’s

Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:32 am

Miquel787 wrote:
Congrats to Boeing! Good news for them.


And indeed the -10 which had a dry period uptill the recent ANZ order
Thanks and best Regards
AA
 
Miquel787
Posts: 79
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2016 4:11 am

Re: Korean Air orders further 787’s

Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:57 am

MileHFL400 wrote:
Miquel787 wrote:
Congrats to Boeing! Good news for them.


And indeed the -10 which had a dry period uptill the recent ANZ order


You are absolutely right..KLM picked up 1 extra -10 yesterday and they will get some more in the future (swap some -9.s to -10.s.
 
EK77WNH
Posts: 175
Joined: Sun Feb 24, 2019 4:42 pm

Re: Korean Air orders further 787’s

Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:01 am

Can the -10 reach BOS?
Next Trip:
JAL 7-8 BOS-NRT-BOS, 787-9
September
 
jfk777
Posts: 6973
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: Korean Air orders further 787’s

Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:12 am

EK77WNH wrote:
Can the -10 reach BOS?


The 787-10 can reach and LAX anything in between from Amsterdam. The 787-10 can fly about 6,500 miles, a 787-9 can do about 8,000 miles.
 
User avatar
Polot
Posts: 9344
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2011 3:01 pm

Re: Korean Air orders further 787’s

Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:12 am

jfk777 wrote:
EK77WNH wrote:
Can the -10 reach BOS?


The 787-10 can reach and LAX anything in between from Amsterdam. The 787-10 can fly about 6,500 miles, a 787-9 can do about 8,000 miles.

He is talking about from ICN. Remember this thread is about KE.
 
jfk777
Posts: 6973
Joined: Tue Aug 22, 2006 7:23 am

Re: Korean Air orders further 787’s

Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:15 am

Great news for Boeing, a big order in Paris, from a loyal airline. 20 787-9/10 will help Korean fly to any corner of the USA and Europe. What would be even better is an order for the 777-9. Great way to go Korean Air.
 
User avatar
DarkSnowyNight
Posts: 2257
Joined: Sun Jan 01, 2012 7:59 pm

Re: Korean Air orders further 787’s

Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:19 am

jfk777 wrote:
What would be even better is an order for the 777-9. Great way to go Korean Air.



No doubt. But with a lot of newer 77Ws, 748i & 388s they have left to cycle out, it will probably be a little while before they get to that point. But they will. May even end up being a fairly large tranche of 779s.
"Ya Can't Win, Rocky! There's no Oxygen on Mars!"
"Yeah? That means there's no Oxygen for him Neither..."
 
sabby
Posts: 319
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2018 5:11 pm

Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:34 am

Good news for 787-10. I can see more orders from the asian carriers in the next decade. This plane is tailor made for operating intra-asia, asia-europe and tatl.
 
User avatar
janders
Moderator
Posts: 822
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:27 pm

Re: CEO: Korean Air widebody order imminent

Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:39 am

Actually 30 frames

From Boeing - 10x 789, 10x 78X
From ALC - 10x 78X
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
User avatar
PolarRoute
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:56 pm

Re: Korean Air orders further 787’s

Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:48 am

Congrats to KE and Boeing! No surprise KE opted for another batch of 787 to simplify their fleet.

DarkSnowyNight wrote:
No doubt. But with a lot of newer 77Ws, 748i & 388s they have left to cycle out, it will probably be a little while before they get to that point. But they will. May even end up being a fairly large tranche of 779s.


Agreed. KE have always operated VLAs while also having a good number of 77Ws to be replaced (a long way out). As this was probably their last chance of getting A350s, 777X seems to be the only thing that can replace those 77Ws.

jfk777 wrote:
20 787-9/10 will help Korean fly to any corner of the USA and Europe


I doubt the -10s will. I think it's highly likely that KE get MTOW bumped B78Xs in the future, (and that's IF they do get the bump) but this very tranche of order is to replace their aging regional fleet of 330s and 777s, IMHO.
 
x1234
Posts: 482
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 3:50 pm

Re: Confirmed: Korean Air signing LOI for 30 787's

Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:30 pm

Boeing's range figure for the B787-10 is FULL PAYLOAD 11,900km. This allows KE from ICN to reach all of Europe (including DUB/LIS), Oceania (including MEL, SYD & AKL) and US Mid-west/West-Coast (LAX, LAS and as far east as ORD & DFW, unfortunately IAH is out of range).
 
SQ317
Posts: 86
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:16 pm

Re: Confirmed: Korean Air signing LOI for 30 787's

Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:15 pm

Are the 10x B78Xs from ALC a new order or placement or the existing order? They already had 25 on order at the end of May.
 
User avatar
Momo1435
Posts: 913
Joined: Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:33 pm

Re: Confirmed: Korean Air signing LOI for 30 787's

Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:17 pm

SQ317 wrote:
Are the 10x B78Xs from ALC a new order or placement or the existing order? They already had 25 on order at the end of May.

They are from the existing ALC order.
 
ITSTours
Posts: 361
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: Confirmed: Korean Air signing LOI for 30 787's

Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:24 pm

Kinda assumed by most of us. A very reasonable order and I think 787-10 can do a lot for Korean Air.
 
ITSTours
Posts: 361
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: Korean Air orders further 787’s

Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:26 pm

Polot wrote:
jfk777 wrote:
EK77WNH wrote:
Can the -10 reach BOS?


The 787-10 can reach and LAX anything in between from Amsterdam. The 787-10 can fly about 6,500 miles, a 787-9 can do about 8,000 miles.

He is talking about from ICN. Remember this thread is about KE.


It might, but KE will not place 787-10 on BOS anyway. We can talk about that after BOS becomes daily.

Remember KE's 787-9 has rather higher number of seats (269) due to low numbers of premium seats (24C; formerly 6F 18C)
 
User avatar
seabosdca
Posts: 6462
Joined: Sat Sep 01, 2007 8:33 am

Re: Korean Air orders further 787’s

Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:37 pm

PolarRoute wrote:
Agreed. KE have always operated VLAs while also having a good number of 77Ws to be replaced (a long way out). As this was probably their last chance of getting A350s, 777X seems to be the only thing that can replace those 77Ws.


Disagree about the A350. This order was about replacing aging 777-200s and A330s, and the 787s were pretty clearly the best fit on those missions; the additional capability of the A350 wasn't needed. When the 777-300ER replacement rolls around in a few years, I'd be surprised if the A350-1000 doesn't win.
 
mintxwb
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Jun 15, 2019 7:34 pm

Re: Confirmed: Korean Air signing LOI for 30 787's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:08 am

Great choice. 787 is the only sensible order for them. 787-10 can do US east coast from ICN very efficiently.
 
User avatar
PolarRoute
Posts: 77
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2018 3:56 pm

Re: Korean Air orders further 787’s

Wed Jun 19, 2019 12:57 am

seabosdca wrote:
PolarRoute wrote:
Agreed. KE have always operated VLAs while also having a good number of 77Ws to be replaced (a long way out). As this was probably their last chance of getting A350s, 777X seems to be the only thing that can replace those 77Ws.


Disagree about the A350. This order was about replacing aging 777-200s and A330s, and the 787s were pretty clearly the best fit on those missions; the additional capability of the A350 wasn't needed. When the 777-300ER replacement rolls around in a few years, I'd be surprised if the A350-1000 doesn't win.


True that this batch of order is going to replace 772s and 330s, but if they wanted the A350s that bad they could have gotten it really, there's a derated 350s for that kind of mission. KE just didn't see the case for throwing time and human resources trying to get RR MRO rights in expense of fleet commonality. Remember, CEO Cho Won Tae (or is it Walter Cho) mentioned that he'd like to have more simplified fleet. If they already opted for one way, why take another unless there is a massive undeniable price sale?
 
ITSTours
Posts: 361
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: Korean Air orders further 787’s

Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:08 am

PolarRoute wrote:
seabosdca wrote:
PolarRoute wrote:
Agreed. KE have always operated VLAs while also having a good number of 77Ws to be replaced (a long way out). As this was probably their last chance of getting A350s, 777X seems to be the only thing that can replace those 77Ws.


Disagree about the A350. This order was about replacing aging 777-200s and A330s, and the 787s were pretty clearly the best fit on those missions; the additional capability of the A350 wasn't needed. When the 777-300ER replacement rolls around in a few years, I'd be surprised if the A350-1000 doesn't win.


True that this batch of order is going to replace 772s and 330s, but if they wanted the A350s that bad they could have gotten it really, there's a derated 350s for that kind of mission. KE just didn't see the case for throwing time and human resources trying to get RR MRO rights in expense of fleet commonality. Remember, CEO Cho Won Tae (or is it Walter Cho) mentioned that he'd like to have more simplified fleet. If they already opted for one way, why take another unless there is a massive undeniable price sale?


Let's call him Cho Won Tae, but call his sister Emily Lee Cho, as these are their legal names.

Jokes aside, it will be about 2029 when they are going to replace the first 777-300ER (which was delivered in 2009).
At that point, the rumored A350neo with Ultrafan may have been realized. Its economics will be certainly compelling.
 
ITSTours
Posts: 361
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: Confirmed: Korean Air signing LOI for 30 787's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 1:10 am

By the way, South Korea makes the MTOW of each registered airplane public, so we will definitely know what Korean Air gets when it is delivered...
 
Yahnih
Posts: 111
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2017 7:07 am

Re: Confirmed: Korean Air signing LOI for 30 787's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:46 am

I think this will finally open up SAN!
 
kengo
Posts: 276
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:04 am

Re: Confirmed: Korean Air signing LOI for 30 787's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:26 am

Good for KE ordering more 787s. The A333s currently flying the ICN-NRT-HNL are getting a bit old, so hoping for KE to replace those A333s with new B789s/10s on this route.
 
Aither
Posts: 1206
Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 3:43 am

Re: Confirmed: Korean Air signing LOI for 30 787's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:22 am

With KE removing first class and the entry into service of Beijing second airport there will be less need for 777X.
Never trust the obvious
 
kengo
Posts: 276
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:04 am

Re: Confirmed: Korean Air signing LOI for 30 787's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 3:13 pm

Aither wrote:
With KE removing first class and the entry into service of Beijing second airport there will be less need for 777X.


True but when time comes to replace their 77Ws, 748s and A380s, the only thing that comes close to pax capacity of those aircraft is the 779 and I tend to think there is more chance of KE ordering the 779 than not in the future. Perhaps, not one for one replacement but half to two-third of their combined VLA in their fleet as of now. I don't think their largest aircraft after 10 to 15 year from now will be the 787-10 even if they are removing first class on most of their WB fleet.
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6969
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

Re: Confirmed: Korean Air signing LOI for 30 787's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 4:20 pm

kengo wrote:
Aither wrote:
... when time comes to replace their 77Ws, 748s and A380s, the only thing that comes close to pax capacity of those aircraft is the 779 and I tend to think there is more chance of KE ordering the 779 than not in the future.

Which long-haul KE routes can sustain VLAs? ICN-LAX, ICN-JFK, ICN-CDG, ICN-SFO? Any others? ATL and LHR maybe? The 77Ws have a lot of life left in them, and so do the 748s. It will be interesting to see what KE does down the road, but I would not be surprised if they choose a number of twin VLAs that is smaller than the sum of all 77Ws, 748s and A380s.
Upcoming flights:
May: AM MEX-CUN 73H (Y), AM CUN-MEX 73W (Y).
August: KL MEX-AMS 74M (J), KQ AMS-NBO 788 (J).
 
ITSTours
Posts: 361
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: Confirmed: Korean Air signing LOI for 30 787's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:18 pm

EddieDude wrote:
kengo wrote:
Aither wrote:
... when time comes to replace their 77Ws, 748s and A380s, the only thing that comes close to pax capacity of those aircraft is the 779 and I tend to think there is more chance of KE ordering the 779 than not in the future.

Which long-haul KE routes can sustain VLAs? ICN-LAX, ICN-JFK, ICN-CDG, ICN-SFO? Any others? ATL and LHR maybe? The 77Ws have a lot of life left in them, and so do the 748s. It will be interesting to see what KE does down the road, but I would not be surprised if they choose a number of twin VLAs that is smaller than the sum of all 77Ws, 748s and A380s.


FRA and SYD/AKL(Northern Winter only).
But then if we think about long-term strategy, we have to consider that South Korean population is only going to shrink starting next year. Economic growth will slow down so does the demand. Unfortunate for my country but it is a fact. (Unless somehow South and North reunify!)
Eventually they will reduce the number of VLAs.
 
User avatar
lightsaber
Moderator
Posts: 17665
Joined: Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:55 pm

Re: Confirmed: Korean Air signing LOI for 30 787's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:31 pm

kengo wrote:
Aither wrote:
With KE removing first class and the entry into service of Beijing second airport there will be less need for 777X.


True but when time comes to replace their 77Ws, 748s and A380s, the only thing that comes close to pax capacity of those aircraft is the 779 and I tend to think there is more chance of KE ordering the 779 than not in the future. Perhaps, not one for one replacement but half to two-third of their combined VLA in their fleet as of now. I don't think their largest aircraft after 10 to 15 year from now will be the 787-10 even if they are removing first class on most of their WB fleet.

I agree with Kengo. While fewer VLAs are needed, that is not the same as zero. I do agree with Aither that the 2nd Beijing airport will impact all TPAC connections.

Lightsaber
IM messages to mods on warnings and bans will be ignored and nasty ones will result in a ban.
 
ITSTours
Posts: 361
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: Confirmed: Korean Air signing LOI for 30 787's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:36 pm

Also KE configures its VLA less packed. 407 seats for A380, 368 seats for 748, 277 seats for 77W.
Even if they bring 777-9X into their fleet it will be around 340 seats I guess? Not that large.
 
User avatar
Dieuwer
Posts: 1326
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2017 6:27 pm

Re: Confirmed: Korean Air signing LOI for 30 787's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:37 pm

Nothing secret about this order. Korean already flies 787 to BOS. It is obvious to order more of the same plane type.
 
EddieDude
Posts: 6969
Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2003 10:19 am

Re: Confirmed: Korean Air signing LOI for 30 787's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:58 pm

ITSTours wrote:
Also KE configures its VLA less packed. 407 seats for A380, 368 seats for 748, 277 seats for 77W.

Good point ITSTours! The CEO is on record stating that they do not wish to make the economy cabin cramped like many competitors just for the sake of squeezing more pax. Seems KE understands they can earn the loyalty of their customers by offering a decent Economy class (also making Premium Economy less necessary in their business model).

Although it seems that KE is moving closer and closer to Boeing (this recent order is an example, plus the Rolls Royce service situation that many have noted), the A350 could be a compelling plane for KE when it is time to replace the VLAs. A high MTOW A359 could fit anywhere between 277 and 315-ish seats in a two-class configuration (with decent pitch and width in economy), and serve most KE routes. The A35K could fit 368-plus seats while also offering a decent level of comfort to economy passengers... and range would not be an issue at all. So, while I still think any order to replace the VLAs is Boeing's to lose, the A350 family is a very sound proposition too.
Upcoming flights:
May: AM MEX-CUN 73H (Y), AM CUN-MEX 73W (Y).
August: KL MEX-AMS 74M (J), KQ AMS-NBO 788 (J).
 
ITSTours
Posts: 361
Joined: Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: Confirmed: Korean Air signing LOI for 30 787's

Wed Jun 19, 2019 9:21 pm

EddieDude wrote:
ITSTours wrote:
Also KE configures its VLA less packed. 407 seats for A380, 368 seats for 748, 277 seats for 77W.

Good point ITSTours! The CEO is on record stating that they do not wish to make the economy cabin cramped like many competitors just for the sake of squeezing more pax. Seems KE understands they can earn the loyalty of their customers by offering a decent Economy class (also making Premium Economy less necessary in their business model).

Although it seems that KE is moving closer and closer to Boeing (this recent order is an example, plus the Rolls Royce service situation that many have noted), the A350 could be a compelling plane for KE when it is time to replace the VLAs. A high MTOW A359 could fit anywhere between 277 and 315-ish seats in a two-class configuration (with decent pitch and width in economy), and serve most KE routes. The A35K could fit 368-plus seats while also offering a decent level of comfort to economy passengers... and range would not be an issue at all. So, while I still think any order to replace the VLAs is Boeing's to lose, the A350 family is a very sound proposition too.


I also think A35K would be more suitable in future in terms of size and for 77W replacement, considering pressures from longhaul LCC and cost-cutting Asiana.
777-8 is heavier and KE does not need that much range.
777-9 seems a very good alternative for A380 and 748 with some downguaging, but too much for 77W replacement especially when 777-9 will carry much more passengers than 77W.
(I don't think there will be any airlines configuring 777X with 9 abreast.)

A359 however is replaceable with 787-10 (for mid-long-haul) and 787-9 (for long-haul), which they will have 20 each. And those are fairly denser compared to 77W.
Current 789 has only 8 less seats than newer 77Ws, so 78X will certainly have more seats than 77W.

My opinion is that the best future alternative would be 'Ultrafan-ed' A350-1000neo and A350-2000neo (if it ever becomes realized.)
KE can wait until then, as they have still 10 more years without needing replacements.

Also note that most of KE widebodies are directly purchased (and then capital leased), so KE will not be able to simply return the airplanes after 10 years unlike SQ.
They tend to keep using the aircraft over 20 years at which point Korean government considers them too old.
 
User avatar
janders
Moderator
Posts: 822
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2017 4:27 pm

Re: Confirmed: Korean Air signing LOI for 30 787's

Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:53 pm

Deal finalized

10 x 787-9
10 x 787-10
+
10 x 787-9 leased

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/18/korean- ... iners.html
"We make war that we may live in peace." -- Aristotle
 
musman9853
Posts: 735
Joined: Mon May 14, 2018 12:30 pm

Re: Confirmed: Korean Air signing LOI for 30 787's

Fri Jul 19, 2019 3:21 pm

looks like the 787 rate increase really paid off.
Welcome to the City Beautiful.

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos