GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:21 am

crjflyboy wrote:
I like this idea of Mitsubishi taking over the CRJ line. The entire line needs to be rengined with the PW 1700G series.

I also believe the 200 series should be brought out of mothballs and rengined as well with the new ATMOSPHERE interior.

From a passenger standpoint, the CRJ far surpasses the ERJ planes.


Not happening in so many ways.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Fri Jun 07, 2019 5:34 am

Can we C5 this with a C Series, cause we like comments that are reasonable and insightful, as we tend to get so little of that here.

Like I say Mitsubishi should just slap a better MRJ fuselage on those CRJs and call it a day.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
VV
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Fri Jun 07, 2019 6:19 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
VV wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
It’s pretty rare to see a CRJ at a BBD Service Center, most airlines do their MRO work or contract it to cheaper MRO companies than BBD.

GF


Is Bombardier well reputed for good service?


Good, but they can “nickel and dime” you and, for the bizjet line, nearly the only game in town. Different market than airlines.

GF


Is Bombardier the "only game in town" on bizjet?
 
T4thH
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:15 am

Mitsubishi seem only to be interested in Bombardier maintenance part.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Business-deals/Bombardier-tells-Mitsubishi-no-cherry-picking-in-jet-talks


I am not really surprised.
 
vfw614
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:25 am

crjflyboy wrote:
From a passenger standpoint, the CRJ far surpasses the ERJ planes.


Can I get some of the stuff you are smoking :-) ? I think your view is quite exclusive....
 
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keesje
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:48 am

T4thH wrote:
Mitsubishi seem only to be interested in Bombardier maintenance part.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Business-deals/Bombardier-tells-Mitsubishi-no-cherry-picking-in-jet-talks


I am not really surprised.



Bombardier Inc. refused Mitsubishi Heavy Industries Ltd.'s initial offer for the acquisition of Canadian Regional Jet (CRJ) program because the Japanese company wanted to buy just the profitable aircraft maintenance network, Nikkei reported on Friday. According to the report, Bombardier planned to sell the CRJ unit as a whole, both the services network as well as the Bombardier's unprofitable jet production line.

Persons familiar with the matter indicate that CRJ's maintenance and repair operations would be critical in case the Japanese conglomerate wanted to win orders for its passenger jets in North America.

Mitsubishi Heavy Industries yesterday rebuffed previous reports that the two companies were in advance negotiations on the acquisition, although it did acknowledge that discussions were ongoing.

https://www.teletrader.com/mitsubishi-h ... s/48273264

Interestingly this might have woken up other parties (Boeing, Airbus, Comac, MRO's) to what is happening / could happen & rethink their long term interests.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
VV
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Fri Jun 07, 2019 11:54 am

T4thH wrote:
Mitsubishi seem only to be interested in Bombardier maintenance part.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Business-deals/Bombardier-tells-Mitsubishi-no-cherry-picking-in-jet-talks


I am not really surprised.


Mitsubishi probably doesn't want the financial liabilities attached to the CRJ program.
 
T4thH
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Fri Jun 07, 2019 12:48 pm

VV wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Mitsubishi seem only to be interested in Bombardier maintenance part.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Business-deals/Bombardier-tells-Mitsubishi-no-cherry-picking-in-jet-talks


I am not really surprised.


Mitsubishi probably doesn't want the financial liabilities attached to the CRJ program.


I would just say, they do not want the whole CRJ program. If they will buy the whole program (or are forced to, else they would not get the "maintenance part" of it), they will close it as fast as possible per contract. The MRJ and CRJ programs are nearly identical, with the difference, one is new and clean sheet and the other overdue...There is only place for one of both jet families, and I do not believe there is enough for three MRJ FALs in the world (main in Japan, one planned for the USA...who will need Mirabel?).

If "Fliegerfaust" is correct [Ironi on]he is only a little bit biased pro "Mirabel" Bombardier e.g., but really, really only a little of little bit [/ironic of], Airbus is planning to buy much more ground in Mirabel for some additional production lines. So the employees have a good chance to find a new job.
https://www.fliegerfaust.com/airbus-news-typhoon-a350-2626020934.html
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Fri Jun 07, 2019 1:59 pm

VV wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
VV wrote:

Is Bombardier well reputed for good service?


Good, but they can “nickel and dime” you and, for the bizjet line, nearly the only game in town. Different market than airlines.

GF


Is Bombardier the "only game in town" on bizjet?


If you own a bizjet, you’re more dependent on OEM MRO than an airline is that does most work in house or with long-term contract. Cessna started it with their service centers and it’s become the norm to have MRO work done by the OEM. There are MRO companies, especially for older planes, but fewer.

GF
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Fri Jun 07, 2019 2:23 pm

So it was like I expected.

The CRJ itself is not the gold nugget, it's the maintenance and support network. Which is apparently profitable - counter to what multiple posters in this thread stated.

Will be interesting to see what the finalized deal will be.
 
Waterbomber2
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:31 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
So it was like I expected.

The CRJ itself is not the gold nugget, it's the maintenance and support network. Which is apparently profitable - counter to what multiple posters in this thread stated.

Will be interesting to see what the finalized deal will be.


There is no CRJ maintenance and support network without the CRJ itself.
The CRJ program can't be split up like that, you can't purchase a support system without purchasing the type certificate so this is just non-aviation journalism.

The CRJ program offers MITAC a lot of insight, including but not limited to the support network.
I doubt that they're trying to pick any cherries, they're just positioning for the next 5 years where the MRJ may EIS but not in sufficient numbers to answer the demand, so they may need to offer CRJ's as a stop-gap solution.

The CRJ does resolve many of the MRJ's problems.
Scope compliant interim lift ready to roll oht of the factory, insight into support and maintenance, insight into sales and customers, insight into production methods, insight into the supply chain and suppliers, insight into the strengths and weaknesses of the model.
 
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:39 pm

VV wrote:
T4thH wrote:
Mitsubishi seem only to be interested in Bombardier maintenance part.

https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Business-deals/Bombardier-tells-Mitsubishi-no-cherry-picking-in-jet-talks


I am not really surprised.

Mitsubishi probably doesn't want the financial liabilities attached to the CRJ program.

I wonder if they can take a "good bank / bad bank" approach of moving all the CRJ production assets into the "bad company" and all the CRJ support assets into the "good company"?

Waterbomber2 wrote:
The CRJ does resolve many of the MRJ's problems.
Scope compliant interim lift ready to roll oht of the factory, insight into support and maintenance, insight into sales and customers, insight into production methods, insight into the supply chain and suppliers, insight into the strengths and weaknesses of the model.

I'm kind of surprised you're not proposing that Mitsu buy the A380 program off Airbus instead! :biggrin:
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Devilfish
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:43 pm

While both parties will play hardball, neither of them would relish the idea of the deal falling through.....

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -s-458761/
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Revelation
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Fri Jun 07, 2019 3:59 pm

Devilfish wrote:
While both parties will play hardball, neither of them would relish the idea of the deal falling through.....

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -s-458761/

Thanks for the link.

The article is a great summary which echoes many of the thoughts in this thread.

The conclusion?

Should a deal actually close at a price that works for both parties (one analyst values the CRJ programme at anywhere between $500 million and $1 billion), the MRJ will suddenly become a force to be reckoned with.

And Embraer had better watch out.

So much for the $1 price mentioned earlier in this thread.

It'll be fascinating how all this turns out.

Will Mitsu decide to just "pay the man" because they need the worldwide support network in order for the MRJ to succeed?

What are the real down sides to the deal?

It's hard to see how one could accept the CRJ support side without accepting any liabilities incumbent in the program too.

As above, hiving off the CRJ production side into its own corporate entity might be the way forward.

Allow that entity to face its fate, and if it ends up bankrupt, buy the type certificate in bankruptcy procedings.

Or do what we've seen before and have the "good company" loan money to the "bad company" using the type certificate as collateral, and when/if it fails, you are the secured creditor first in line to collect the type certificate.
Wake up to find out that you are the eyes of the world
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Wake now, discover that you are the song that the morning brings
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c933103
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Fri Jun 07, 2019 7:37 pm

T4thH wrote:
Mitsubishi seem only to be interested in Bombardier maintenance part.
https://asia.nikkei.com/Business/Business-deals/Bombardier-tells-Mitsubishi-no-cherry-picking-in-jet-talks


I am not really surprised.

The report read like speculation by the author of that article
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VV
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Fri Jun 07, 2019 10:25 pm

The whole story is really strange.

Although I still hope the sale happens because it would be good for Bombardier's stock price, I am not sure this circus will continue to a happy end.
 
PPVRA
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:53 am

Buying the support network and its know-how makes sense for Mitsubishi. The CRJ maintenance business would support it financially until the MRJ grows.

BBD may have some additional negotiating capital because of the trade secret lawsuit...

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... it-458143/
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
WayexTDI
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:13 am

PPVRA wrote:
Buying the support network and its know-how makes sense for Mitsubishi. The CRJ maintenance business would support it financially until the MRJ grows.

BBD may have some additional negotiating capital because of the trade secret lawsuit...

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... it-458143/

But that's really what I am not sure about: the CRJ's are owned by airlines and usually maintained by the same airlines or established MRO's; how many CRJ's are really maintained by Bombardier?

Granted the CRJ's (especially CRJ100/200) and CL601/604/605 have a lot in common, I'm not sure the CRJ's bring that much money to BBD MRO business. All airlines I've dealt with who were flying CRJ's (operators in the US & Canada) were doing their own maintenance or subcontracting to established MRO's like Barfield... Never had BBD been involved, unless we were talking CL601/604/605.
 
speedbird52
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:33 am

vfw614 wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
From a passenger standpoint, the CRJ far surpasses the ERJ planes.


Can I get some of the stuff you are smoking :-) ? I think your view is quite exclusive....

ERJ Isn't the E-Jets. He is referring to the ERJ135 and ERJ145, not the 170-195 series.
 
Gulfstream500
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:58 am

VV wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
VV wrote:

Is Bombardier well reputed for good service?


Good, but they can “nickel and dime” you and, for the bizjet line, nearly the only game in town. Different market than airlines.

GF


Is Bombardier the "only game in town" on bizjet?


:banghead:

Plenty of other manufacturers: Gulfstream, Cirrus, Embraer, Honda, Dassault, etc.
Can someone please start a wikipedia list of failed startup airlines? I am interested in seeing just how long it would be...
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:57 am

Gulfstream500 wrote:
VV wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:

Good, but they can “nickel and dime” you and, for the bizjet line, nearly the only game in town. Different market than airlines.

GF


Is Bombardier the "only game in town" on bizjet?


:banghead:

Plenty of other manufacturers: Gulfstream, Cirrus, Embraer, Honda, Dassault, etc.


I guess, the meaning is -- once you own a BBD-built bizjet, your option on MRO are limited. Not that cannot buy an additional bizjet from some othe rmanufacturer.
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VV
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:42 am

Phosphorus wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:
VV wrote:

Is Bombardier the "only game in town" on bizjet?


:banghead:

Plenty of other manufacturers: Gulfstream, Cirrus, Embraer, Honda, Dassault, etc.


I guess, the meaning is -- once you own a BBD-built bizjet, your option on MRO are limited. Not that cannot buy an additional bizjet from some othe rmanufacturer.


That's the issue right? Is CRJ service network the same as Bombardier bizjet service network?
As I understand it, Bombardier commercial aircraft service network was for Q Series, C Series and CRJ series.

Part of it has probably gone to follow the C Series to Airbus Canada when the program was taken over by Airbus, another part should have gone to Q400 when it was sold to LongView.

What's left of the CRJ service network? Not much.

I repeat, acquiring the whole CRJ program this year is probably not a good idea.
  • The service network that is left in Bombardier might not be what people think it is
  • Acquiring the whole program also means acquiring its liabilities. There might be some value retention guarantees attached to the program. There might be a hell lot of assets (used aircraft) in the book. There might be comparative fuel guarantee remedies left. Who knows?

If you consider the fact the MRJ is not going to enter into service soon and knowing the troubles with PW1000G that would mean the delivery ramp-up will be quite slow, I just do not think Mitsubishi should take-over the CRJ program.

Having said all the above, I repeat again, I hope this deal happens because it will improve the value of my Bombardier stock.
 
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OA940
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:21 am

Why are so many comments on this site just not even remotely contributory to the conversation and always negative? Y'all must be fun at parties.

Back on topic, this is actually a pretty good move. Of course Mitsubishi was never interested in the CRJ itself, but this way they get to learn from it, and considering its popularity they may be able to market the MRJ as a sort of replacement. Assuming the new project they're planning to reveal is scope-compliant and seeing as Embraer has nothing even remotely close to the scopes, if they play their cards right they could be looking at a very large market in which they are the only next-gen option
A350/CSeries = bae
 
VV
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:32 am

OA940 wrote:
Why are so many comments on this site just not even remotely contributory to the conversation and always negative? Y'all must be fun at parties.

Back on topic, this is actually a pretty good move. Of course Mitsubishi was never interested in the CRJ itself, but this way they get to learn from it, and considering its popularity they may be able to market the MRJ as a sort of replacement. Assuming the new project they're planning to reveal is scope-compliant and seeing as Embraer has nothing even remotely close to the scopes, if they play their cards right they could be looking at a very large market in which they are the only next-gen option


"Of course Mitsubishi was never interested in the CRJ itself, but this way they get to learn from it, and considering its popularity they may be able to market the MRJ as a sort of replacement." ? Really?

To learn how to leave a program overwhelmed by the competition (E190éE195) in the last several years?
I still remember very well when the CRJ was launched back then. in the very early 1990s there was no competition so the aircraft family was a success, but in the early 2000s E190 entered the market and then CRJ started to dwindle down. It is true that CRJ is "the most successful" regional jet so fat with about 1,900 units ordered, but starting in the 2000s CRJ was not going anywhere..

As of today, the E170éE175éE190 and E195 deliveries is at about 1,500 units.

I am convinced acquiring the whole CRJ program today is a bad move, but it is really up to Mitsubishi to decide.

From my personal perspective, I hope really-really hard Misubishi will buy the CRJ program at a high price because it would improve my financial situation.
 
drgmobile
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:00 am

vfw614 wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
From a passenger standpoint, the CRJ far surpasses the ERJ planes.


Can I get some of the stuff you are smoking :-) ? I think your view is quite exclusive....


It depends. Air Canada CRJ-705s (now 900s) are certainly nicer than an old ERJ-145. The 170, 190 and 195 aren't known as ERJs.
 
drgmobile
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:02 am

VV wrote:
OA940 wrote:
Why are so many comments on this site just not even remotely contributory to the conversation and always negative? Y'all must be fun at parties.

Back on topic, this is actually a pretty good move. Of course Mitsubishi was never interested in the CRJ itself, but this way they get to learn from it, and considering its popularity they may be able to market the MRJ as a sort of replacement. Assuming the new project they're planning to reveal is scope-compliant and seeing as Embraer has nothing even remotely close to the scopes, if they play their cards right they could be looking at a very large market in which they are the only next-gen option


"Of course Mitsubishi was never interested in the CRJ itself, but this way they get to learn from it, and considering its popularity they may be able to market the MRJ as a sort of replacement." ? Really?

To learn how to leave a program overwhelmed by the competition (E190éE195) in the last several years?
I still remember very well when the CRJ was launched back then. in the very early 1990s there was no competition so the aircraft family was a success, but in the early 2000s E190 entered the market and then CRJ started to dwindle down. It is true that CRJ is "the most successful" regional jet so fat with about 1,900 units ordered, but starting in the 2000s CRJ was not going anywhere..

As of today, the E170éE175éE190 and E195 deliveries is at about 1,500 units.

I am convinced acquiring the whole CRJ program today is a bad move, but it is really up to Mitsubishi to decide.

From my personal perspective, I hope really-really hard Misubishi will buy the CRJ program at a high price because it would improve my financial situation.


You are mixing up engineering with business strategy. It's not the fault of the people who built the aircraft that the executive leadership decided to concentrate on the C-Series rather than a newsheet regional jet in the 50- to 100-seat range.
 
drgmobile
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:06 am

VV wrote:
Phosphorus wrote:
Gulfstream500 wrote:

:banghead:

Plenty of other manufacturers: Gulfstream, Cirrus, Embraer, Honda, Dassault, etc.


I guess, the meaning is -- once you own a BBD-built bizjet, your option on MRO are limited. Not that cannot buy an additional bizjet from some othe rmanufacturer.


That's the issue right? Is CRJ service network the same as Bombardier bizjet service network?
As I understand it, Bombardier commercial aircraft service network was for Q Series, C Series and CRJ series.

Part of it has probably gone to follow the C Series to Airbus Canada when the program was taken over by Airbus, another part should have gone to Q400 when it was sold to LongView.

What's left of the CRJ service network? Not much.

I repeat, acquiring the whole CRJ program this year is probably not a good idea.
  • The service network that is left in Bombardier might not be what people think it is
  • Acquiring the whole program also means acquiring its liabilities. There might be some value retention guarantees attached to the program. There might be a hell lot of assets (used aircraft) in the book. There might be comparative fuel guarantee remedies left. Who knows?

If you consider the fact the MRJ is not going to enter into service soon and knowing the troubles with PW1000G that would mean the delivery ramp-up will be quite slow, I just do not think Mitsubishi should take-over the CRJ program.


Who knows? Mitsubishi would know, before it bought anything. This isn't like buying a used car. An acquisition of this type comes with due diligence that would include a fairly comprehensive review of the books associated with the program, including assets and liabilities.
 
VV
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:31 am

drgmobile wrote:
You are mixing up engineering with business strategy. It's not the fault of the people who built the aircraft that the executive leadership decided to concentrate on the C-Series rather than a newsheet regional jet in the 50- to 100-seat range.


Okay.

So please tell me what engineering aspects you can learn from CRJ today?

Acquiring CRJ today is just a very bad idea, although I still hope it would happen.
 
VV
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:33 am

drgmobile wrote:
Who knows? Mitsubishi would know, before it bought anything. This isn't like buying a used car. An acquisition of this type comes with due diligence that would include a fairly comprehensive review of the books associated with the program, including assets and liabilities.



I hope they do it diligently and look into all kind of contractual documents.
If they decide to acquire CRJ program anyway then perhaps they find some kind of sens in doing so.

From where I am today, I just do not see the "treasure" inside CRJ program. It does not mean there is not any.
 
drgmobile
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:52 am

VV wrote:
drgmobile wrote:
You are mixing up engineering with business strategy. It's not the fault of the people who built the aircraft that the executive leadership decided to concentrate on the C-Series rather than a newsheet regional jet in the 50- to 100-seat range.


Okay.

So please tell me what engineering aspects you can learn from CRJ today?

Acquiring CRJ today is just a very bad idea, although I still hope it would happen.


It's not about the program, it's about the people.
 
VV
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:17 pm

drgmobile wrote:
VV wrote:
drgmobile wrote:
You are mixing up engineering with business strategy. It's not the fault of the people who built the aircraft that the executive leadership decided to concentrate on the C-Series rather than a newsheet regional jet in the 50- to 100-seat range.


Okay.

So please tell me what engineering aspects you can learn from CRJ today?

Acquiring CRJ today is just a very bad idea, although I still hope it would happen.


It's not about the program, it's about the people.


So what's your point?

The program is dying, I understand it. That's exactly why I do not understand why on earth Mitsubishi would acquire it today.
Perhaps they see a hidden treasure in that program. I don't.
 
Murf
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 3:50 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
But that's really what I am not sure about: the CRJ's are owned by airlines and usually maintained by the same airlines or established MRO's; how many CRJ's are really maintained by Bombardier?

Granted the CRJ's (especially CRJ100/200) and CL601/604/605 have a lot in common, I'm not sure the CRJ's bring that much money to BBD MRO business. All airlines I've dealt with who were flying CRJ's (operators in the US & Canada) were doing their own maintenance or subcontracting to established MRO's like Barfield... Never had BBD been involved, unless we were talking CL601/604/605.


Bombardier has a significant MRO maintenance operation that does C check and modification work for airlines in Tucson as well as at another facility somewhere back east...Embraer too has an MRO maintenance operation doing C check work for airlines at Nashville airport...I believe Skywest is a big customer who uses both Embraer and Bombardier for there MRO maintenance heavy checks.

Mistubishi would definitely benefit from BBD's MRO division as having Skywest as an already established C check customer, it might make them less likely to pull out of there MRJ purchase if they have or had concerns about maintenance support and who will do their MRJ C checks if they still choose to take delivery of MRJ's and if they decide to out source there heavy maintenance.

Murf
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 6:39 pm

vfw614 wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
From a passenger standpoint, the CRJ far surpasses the ERJ planes.


Can I get some of the stuff you are smoking :-) ? I think your view is quite exclusive....


It's wider, roomier, ability to offer first class seating, higher walk through height, dual overhead bins … quite exclusive ?

What are you smoking ?
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8208
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:09 pm

crjflyboy wrote:
vfw614 wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
From a passenger standpoint, the CRJ far surpasses the ERJ planes.


Can I get some of the stuff you are smoking :-) ? I think your view is quite exclusive....


It's wider, roomier, ability to offer first class seating, higher walk through height, dual overhead bins … quite exclusive ?

What are you smoking ?


Wider doesn’t mean anything if you cram in an extra seat, cram in bags over the seats, and you’re stuck in a plane with insufficient air conditioning during summer.

200s don’t have first class seats.

At least on the 145 the bags are in the cargo hold, the windows are a proper height and there’s adequate air conditioning.

An extra 2cm of aisle height won’t do much for me.
Last edited by PPVRA on Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
PPVRA
Posts: 8208
Joined: Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:48 am

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:13 pm

WayexTDI wrote:
PPVRA wrote:
Buying the support network and its know-how makes sense for Mitsubishi. The CRJ maintenance business would support it financially until the MRJ grows.

BBD may have some additional negotiating capital because of the trade secret lawsuit...

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... it-458143/

But that's really what I am not sure about: the CRJ's are owned by airlines and usually maintained by the same airlines or established MRO's; how many CRJ's are really maintained by Bombardier?

Granted the CRJ's (especially CRJ100/200) and CL601/604/605 have a lot in common, I'm not sure the CRJ's bring that much money to BBD MRO business. All airlines I've dealt with who were flying CRJ's (operators in the US & Canada) were doing their own maintenance or subcontracting to established MRO's like Barfield... Never had BBD been involved, unless we were talking CL601/604/605.



Heavier maintenance, engineering work for modifications or damaged aircraft, etc
"If goods do not cross borders, soldiers will" - Frederic Bastiat
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:34 pm

PPVRA wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
vfw614 wrote:

Can I get some of the stuff you are smoking :-) ? I think your view is quite exclusive....


It's wider, roomier, ability to offer first class seating, higher walk through height, dual overhead bins … quite exclusive ?

What are you smoking ?


Wider doesn’t mean anything if you cram in an extra seat, cram in bags over the seats, and you’re stuck in a plane with insufficient air conditioning during summer.

200s don’t have first class seats.

At least on the 145 the bags are in the cargo hold, the windows are a proper height and there’s adequate air conditioning.

An extra 2cm of aisle height won’t do much for me.



What would stop MISTUBISHI from offering an update NG version of the 200 ATMOSPHERE with larger properly placed windows, first class seating option with PW engines ?

Many routes can not suport a 76 seat plane, but a better fuel efficeient 200 could. The current 200 series and 145's are quickly aproaching the end of their cycles and will be scrapped soon .. then what ?
 
Canuck600
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:24 pm

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:37 pm

Isn't the real value in the support network the parts side as opposed to the maintenance side?
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3393
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:45 pm

There’s two business cases to be made. Is there sufficient passenger at a profitable fare structure to support route. Then are there enough of those 50-pax routes to support design/ build a profitable number of the jets. You need to produce enough planes to amortize the non-recurring development costs. My ROM at today’s cost of development is 1500 planes, minimum and the risk of not meeting that number must be fairly low. Hard to do.

GF
 
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rikkus67
Posts: 1287
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Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 7:55 pm

vfw614 wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
From a passenger standpoint, the CRJ far surpasses the ERJ planes.


Can I get some of the stuff you are smoking :-) ? I think your view is quite exclusive....


CRJ vs 135/145, definitely. (these were the original direct competitors, and most seem to forget that)

CRJ vs 170 and on? No.
AC.WA.CP.DL.RW.CO.WG.WJ.WN.KI.FL.SK.ACL.UA.US.F9
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:06 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
There’s two business cases to be made. Is there sufficient passenger at a profitable fare structure to support route. Then are there enough of those 50-pax routes to support design/ build a profitable number of the jets. You need to produce enough planes to amortize the non-recurring development costs. My ROM at today’s cost of development is 1500 planes, minimum and the risk of not meeting that number must be fairly low. Hard to do.

GF


The developmental costs have already been made by BOMBARDIER years ago … I'm only suggesting updating it .. their is nothing to develop it's already been flying for years.

TOYOTA is a major investor in the MRJ program and hold many seats on their board of directors … TOYOTA keeps the same vehicles and continues to refine them over and over again … and again .. and again ...
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sat Jun 08, 2019 8:09 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
There’s two business cases to be made. Is there sufficient passenger at a profitable fare structure to support route. Then are there enough of those 50-pax routes to support design/ build a profitable number of the jets. You need to produce enough planes to amortize the non-recurring development costs. My ROM at today’s cost of development is 1500 planes, minimum and the risk of not meeting that number must be fairly low. Hard to do.

GF


The aircraft has already been developed … it's been flying for years … calculate just updating it with new PW engines and the ATMOSPHERE interior
 
T4thH
Posts: 254
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 11:17 pm

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:33 am

crjflyboy wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
There’s two business cases to be made. Is there sufficient passenger at a profitable fare structure to support route. Then are there enough of those 50-pax routes to support design/ build a profitable number of the jets. You need to produce enough planes to amortize the non-recurring development costs. My ROM at today’s cost of development is 1500 planes, minimum and the risk of not meeting that number must be fairly low. Hard to do.

GF


The aircraft has already been developed … it's been flying for years … calculate just updating it with new PW engines and the ATMOSPHERE interior

To upgrade a jet with athmosphere interior, even with an updated glass cockpit, is fine, no real problem.

But to upgrade a jet with new type/generation engines located at the tail section; sorry this will not be so easy, this is another story...
.
First, these new generation engines are around 50% heavier,
Second, these new generation engines are also 50% more expensive and also the maintenance is much more expensive, minimum 50 %. So over 18 years, capital costs + maintenance cost will be something around 10 to 15 million $ more than prior generation jet engines?
Third: These engines, as alread said, are heavier, so around 500´to 600 kg per engine and they are stronger, so you have to modify the tail, let us say around additional 50 kg per engine. So let us say, the jet with new engines is around 1.2 tons heavier.
Fourth: 1.2 t more at a jet with engines under the wing is fine, as it is in balance. And if you have to move these engines under the wing a little bit to the front and the center of the engines a little more higher, it is already not any more fine, than ithis jet is called 737 MAX. But these engines of your 50 seet jet are at the tail-section, so as you have to stay in balance, you have to put the same amount of balance weight to the front. So regardint the additional 1.2 t at the back the total weight of the jet has to be incresed by 2.4 t..
5th: If you want to get rid of the total weight increase, you have to reduce the weight at the tail section; as excanple new materials for the fins, but also this will reduce the weight of new parts only by 30 % and it will never be enough, to reduce the additional weight at the tail by more than 200 or 300 kg; and it will be expensive.
6th: 50 seet jets are used for short haul flights regular. The new generation engines have no or only low/negible benefit in fuel consumption during start and landing. So the overal benefit of these new generation engines is low on jets in short haul flight duty, especially in smaller jets. There is a reason, why there are only low number of orders for A319 NEO, 737 MAX 7 and no orders for the E175 E2, even all of these of the old generation (A319 ceo, 737 700 and E175) have been sold pretty well. The new generation engines do not work/have no financial benefit on these small jets, and your postulated 50 seets jet will be tthe smallest of them....

There are more points, but I am sure, these mentioned are already enough.
Only one last and most important: The development/upgrade with new engines will be expensive (up to 1 billion), and will need several years. I do not see, that 400 to 500 jets will be sold, only tto get back the developement costs, especially as now all CRJ are even sold below production costs.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3393
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:46 am

crjflyboy wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
There’s two business cases to be made. Is there sufficient passenger at a profitable fare structure to support route. Then are there enough of those 50-pax routes to support design/ build a profitable number of the jets. You need to produce enough planes to amortize the non-recurring development costs. My ROM at today’s cost of development is 1500 planes, minimum and the risk of not meeting that number must be fairly low. Hard to do.

GF


The aircraft has already been developed … it's been flying for years … calculate just updating it with new PW engines and the ATMOSPHERE interior


Tell me about it, I worked there for 12 years. Re-engining and updating the CRJ will require significant non-recurring development costs-about $1.5-$2.5 million per new delivery, minimum. The production line is gone, the tooling likely gone, a new fuselage providing new windows, more headroom is new, a new engine similar in weight to the CF-34 is needed. It’s not just a few fixes on a CRJ-200. It’s been looked at extensively and is not happening. It’s not BBD’s finances, it’s there is no business case where the NRC can be recovered because the airlines can’t make money on a fare structure garnering enough revenue. That plane has left the gate.

WRT weights, new avionics will take away 400-600 pounds UP FRONT, making the balance problem even worse. The structural improvements will add more than 50kg per side, too. The whole program would require a certification program.

BBD hasn’t sold a CRJ-200 in more than 10 years and the last ones were Challenger 850.

GF
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3393
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:53 am

crjflyboy wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
There’s two business cases to be made. Is there sufficient passenger at a profitable fare structure to support route. Then are there enough of those 50-pax routes to support design/ build a profitable number of the jets. You need to produce enough planes to amortize the non-recurring development costs. My ROM at today’s cost of development is 1500 planes, minimum and the risk of not meeting that number must be fairly low. Hard to do.

GF


The developmental costs have already been made by BOMBARDIER years ago … I'm only suggesting updating it .. their is nothing to develop it's already been flying for years.

TOYOTA is a major investor in the MRJ program and hold many seats on their board of directors … TOYOTA keeps the same vehicles and continues to refine them over and over again … and again .. and again ...


There is a major difference between a Toyota Tacoma and a CRJ.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 3393
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sun Jun 09, 2019 12:56 am

What is the A.net fixation with the 757 and the 50-seat RJ? To listen here, those two planes are the end-all and be-all of airliners
 
VV
Posts: 792
Joined: Sat Feb 13, 2016 1:03 pm

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sun Jun 09, 2019 6:02 am

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
What is the A.net fixation with the 757 and the 50-seat RJ? To listen here, those two planes are the end-all and be-all of airliners


And A380.
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sun Jun 09, 2019 4:56 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
There’s two business cases to be made. Is there sufficient passenger at a profitable fare structure to support route. Then are there enough of those 50-pax routes to support design/ build a profitable number of the jets. You need to produce enough planes to amortize the non-recurring development costs. My ROM at today’s cost of development is 1500 planes, minimum and the risk of not meeting that number must be fairly low. Hard to do.

GF


The developmental costs have already been made by BOMBARDIER years ago … I'm only suggesting updating it .. their is nothing to develop it's already been flying for years.

TOYOTA is a major investor in the MRJ program and hold many seats on their board of directors … TOYOTA keeps the same vehicles and continues to refine them over and over again … and again .. and again ...


There is a major difference between a Toyota Tacoma and a CRJ.



No kidding ?Toyota spent 1.3 billion retooling their Kentucky plant for the new updated Camry model.

https://www.autonews.com/article/201706 ... 2018-camry
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:03 pm

T4thH wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
There’s two business cases to be made. Is there sufficient passenger at a profitable fare structure to support route. Then are there enough of those 50-pax routes to support design/ build a profitable number of the jets. You need to produce enough planes to amortize the non-recurring development costs. My ROM at today’s cost of development is 1500 planes, minimum and the risk of not meeting that number must be fairly low. Hard to do.

GF


The aircraft has already been developed … it's been flying for years … calculate just updating it with new PW engines and the ATMOSPHERE interior

To upgrade a jet with athmosphere interior, even with an updated glass cockpit, is fine, no real problem.

But to upgrade a jet with new type/generation engines located at the tail section; sorry this will not be so easy, this is another story...
.
First, these new generation engines are around 50% heavier,
Second, these new generation engines are also 50% more expensive and also the maintenance is much more expensive, minimum 50 %. So over 18 years, capital costs + maintenance cost will be something around 10 to 15 million $ more than prior generation jet engines?
Third: These engines, as alread said, are heavier, so around 500´to 600 kg per engine and they are stronger, so you have to modify the tail, let us say around additional 50 kg per engine. So let us say, the jet with new engines is around 1.2 tons heavier.
Fourth: 1.2 t more at a jet with engines under the wing is fine, as it is in balance. And if you have to move these engines under the wing a little bit to the front and the center of the engines a little more higher, it is already not any more fine, than ithis jet is called 737 MAX. But these engines of your 50 seet jet are at the tail-section, so as you have to stay in balance, you have to put the same amount of balance weight to the front. So regardint the additional 1.2 t at the back the total weight of the jet has to be incresed by 2.4 t..
5th: If you want to get rid of the total weight increase, you have to reduce the weight at the tail section; as excanple new materials for the fins, but also this will reduce the weight of new parts only by 30 % and it will never be enough, to reduce the additional weight at the tail by more than 200 or 300 kg; and it will be expensive.
6th: 50 seet jets are used for short haul flights regular. The new generation engines have no or only low/negible benefit in fuel consumption during start and landing. So the overal benefit of these new generation engines is low on jets in short haul flight duty, especially in smaller jets. There is a reason, why there are only low number of orders for A319 NEO, 737 MAX 7 and no orders for the E175 E2, even all of these of the old generation (A319 ceo, 737 700 and E175) have been sold pretty well. The new generation engines do not work/have no financial benefit on these small jets, and your postulated 50 seets jet will be tthe smallest of them....

There are more points, but I am sure, these mentioned are already enough.
Only one last and most important: The development/upgrade with new engines will be expensive (up to 1 billion), and will need several years. I do not see, that 400 to 500 jets will be sold, only tto get back the developement costs, especially as now all CRJ are even sold below production costs.



Skip the new engines, upgrade the cockpit, atmosphere interior, install CS sized winows at proper heights and allow operators the option of a first class section of either 3 or 6 seats upfront.
 
Waterbomber2
Posts: 384
Joined: Mon Feb 04, 2019 3:44 am

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:13 pm

Why update the CRJ with the MRJ just around the corner?
Why not offer the CRJ as a low capital cost model, and the MRJ as the low operating cost model?
There is room for both within every scope clause operation.

Reengining with heavier engines is possible for the CRJ, but the fuselage would need to be stretched forward of the wing to counter the weight aft.
It's too late to do that now.
 
crjflyboy
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2019 10:54 pm

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Sun Jun 09, 2019 5:14 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
What is the A.net fixation with the 757 and the 50-seat RJ? To listen here, those two planes are the end-all and be-all of airliners


They are both great aircraft, but neither are the end all of all airliners.

My only point is that the 200's and ERJ's that are flying today are rapidly approaching the end of their cycles and will be scrapped … then what ?

An updated version of the 200 will be needed to fill the vacuum.

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