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Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:50 pm
by danipawa
So whats next ? MRJ production in Canada?

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:51 pm
by Oliver2020
https://www.mhi.com/news/story/190625.html

Just to add the announcement from Mitsubishi web site.

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:53 pm
by Waterbomber2
wave46 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
PW100 wrote:
And MHI will not take over the CRJ production facilities. They will "hire" Bombardier to build and deliver the remaining backlog on their behalf (suggesting they will take no further CRJ orders).


So what did they buy then? An empty shell, customer lists, warehouses, parts?

Seems stupid to me.
At the current rate, MHI won't be producing the MRJ at a high production rate until 5 years from now.
They can offer CRJ's as a stopgap solution to stop US airlines from ordering E1's.


Intellectual property.

A support network for maintenance and sales.

Decreased competition, especially from any other potential bidder, such as COMAC.

Any remaining engineering staff with extensive background in aerospace.

Mitsubishi doesn't seem to be worried about spending bucks to get ahead, that's for sure. It helps when one has a generous parent.


700 million for that and they don't even get the production facilities?
Meh, sounds like a bad deal.

What kind of IP are we talking about? The type certificate of an aircraft about to cease production?

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 4:57 pm
by Amiga500
Surprised MITAC took it on. Given the time between now and getting their MRJ2 into service, they could lose quite a bit of what they bought!

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:00 pm
by queb
Oliver2020 wrote:
https://www.mhi.com/news/story/190625.html

Just to add the announcement from Mitsubishi web site.

Question: does this mean that the crj-700/550 50 seat aircraft project is not going to be or is that a completely separate issue?


the CRJ550 is just a cabin update for in-fleet aircraft. I don't think anyone considered to buy new build CRJ700 with 50 seats.

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:02 pm
by wave46
Waterbomber2 wrote:
700 million for that and they don't even get the production facilities?
Meh, sounds like a bad deal.

What kind of IP are we talking about? The type certificate of an aircraft about to cease production?


How to design and produce an aircraft that complies with worldwide aviation standards would be the key thing, I imagine. There's a lot of know-how and doing it the difficult way by starting from scratch must be a challenge. Cribbing existing IP helps simplify that process.

Production facilities only matter if you have something to produce. Mitsubishi's problem is actually getting to that point.

I don't foresee this being produced in Canada either, so no need for the production site.

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:08 pm
by iceberg210
"CRJ production is expected to conclude in the second half of 2020, following the delivery of the current backlog of aircraft."
From MHI press release.

So it's also about eliminating a competitor. Means after 2020 it'll be a two aircraft game, the EJets and the MRJ. Interesting developments. It's a bit odd that they'd commit to closing up shop before they had a chance to do some sales targeting, but that must have been part of the plan from day one.

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:17 pm
by capitalflyer
Is this possibly just a way to make the lawsuit by BBD against Mitsubishi go away? Basically a settlement agreement, although not formally run through the courts.

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:29 pm
by capitalflyer
Looking at the MSJ website, they don't even list the 70 anymore. All they list is the 90 and a 100 version with 76 seats. Additionally, they don't have any detailed drawings for the 90. Have they abandoned the 70 and 90 and shifted to a 100 with less seats and MTOW?

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:32 pm
by leghorn
700million or more off the debt pile and the share price has barely budged. I can't believe the market already priced the deal in to the price.

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:43 pm
by LockheedBBD
leghorn wrote:
700million or more off the debt pile and the share price has barely budged. I can't believe the market already priced the deal in to the price.


VV is not going to be happy.

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:49 pm
by Polot
capitalflyer wrote:
Looking at the MSJ website, they don't even list the 70 anymore. All they list is the 90 and a 100 version with 76 seats. Additionally, they don't have any detailed drawings for the 90. Have they abandoned the 70 and 90 and shifted to a 100 with less seats and MTOW?

The old MRJ70 is no more. The old MRJ90 is now the Spacejet M90, and the Spacejet MR100 is a new variant slightly larger than the old MRJ70 with smaller wings targeted to meet US market scope.

Most of the current focus is on the M100 because that will likely be a bigger seller for Mitsu than the M90, which looks like it is being only offered because it is too late now to really cancel that program. They are looking at stretching the M90 into a M200 eventually which is when it will probably get more attention from MHI.

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 5:54 pm
by KFLLCFII
So when can we expect a Comet NEO?

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:07 pm
by Waterbomber2
wave46 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
700 million for that and they don't even get the production facilities?
Meh, sounds like a bad deal.

What kind of IP are we talking about? The type certificate of an aircraft about to cease production?


How to design and produce an aircraft that complies with worldwide aviation standards would be the key thing, I imagine. There's a lot of know-how and doing it the difficult way by starting from scratch must be a challenge. Cribbing existing IP helps simplify that process.

Production facilities only matter if you have something to produce. Mitsubishi's problem is actually getting to that point.

I don't foresee this being produced in Canada either, so no need for the production site.


Design and production do not seem to be part of the deal.
A type certificate doesn't tell you how to design an aircraft nor how to produce it.

If true, MHI got taken for a ride here. 700 million for a couple of warehouses, a customer list and a "support network". A type certificate for an aircraft that they intend to kill, instead of offering it alongside their MRJ.
For that kind of money, they could have built a support network with warehouses located in every U.S. State and a few key locations globally.

I don't get it.

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:28 pm
by queb
Waterbomber2 wrote:
wave46 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
700 million for that and they don't even get the production facilities?
Meh, sounds like a bad deal.

What kind of IP are we talking about? The type certificate of an aircraft about to cease production?


How to design and produce an aircraft that complies with worldwide aviation standards would be the key thing, I imagine. There's a lot of know-how and doing it the difficult way by starting from scratch must be a challenge. Cribbing existing IP helps simplify that process.

Production facilities only matter if you have something to produce. Mitsubishi's problem is actually getting to that point.

I don't foresee this being produced in Canada either, so no need for the production site.


Design and production do not seem to be part of the deal.
A type certificate doesn't tell you how to design an aircraft nor how to produce it.

If true, MHI got taken for a ride here. 700 million for a couple of warehouses, a customer list and a "support network". A type certificate for an aircraft that they intend to kill, instead of offering it alongside their MRJ.
For that kind of money, they could have built a support network with warehouses located in every U.S. State and a few key locations globally.

I don't get it.


A type certificate allows you to provide after-sale support for the 1300 and more CRJs still in service for the next 20 years

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:39 pm
by ExMilitaryEng
Well, the type certificate will ensure nobody snatches it, put new engines and competes with the MR100. Or worst, COMAC grabs it, move the production to China and sells a revamp CRJ900 at discounted prices.

The current CRJ support is currently profitable and is an excellent base to later support the MR100.

Mitsu was NOT interested in the production side. BBD will therefore act as a subcontractor until 2020. Airbus will then take over the space and probably also most of the work force.

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:40 pm
by Waterbomber2
queb wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
wave46 wrote:

How to design and produce an aircraft that complies with worldwide aviation standards would be the key thing, I imagine. There's a lot of know-how and doing it the difficult way by starting from scratch must be a challenge. Cribbing existing IP helps simplify that process.

Production facilities only matter if you have something to produce. Mitsubishi's problem is actually getting to that point.

I don't foresee this being produced in Canada either, so no need for the production site.


Design and production do not seem to be part of the deal.
A type certificate doesn't tell you how to design an aircraft nor how to produce it.

If true, MHI got taken for a ride here. 700 million for a couple of warehouses, a customer list and a "support network". A type certificate for an aircraft that they intend to kill, instead of offering it alongside their MRJ.
For that kind of money, they could have built a support network with warehouses located in every U.S. State and a few key locations globally.

I don't get it.


A type certificate allows you to provide after-sale support for the 1300 and more CRJs still in service for the next 20 years


I doubt that 1200 CRJ's will be flying for another 20 years. Most RJ's don't even last 20 years and BBD hasn't sold too many CRJ's in the past 15 years.
Out of those 1200, 500 CRJ100/200 are nearing the end of their lives. The remaining 700 won't last for more than a decade from now.

For 6 times the mentionned amount, MHI could have bought out Embraer, their main competitor.

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:42 pm
by 32andBelow
ExMilitaryEng wrote:
Well, the type certificate will ensure nobody snatches it, put new engines and competes with the MR100. Or worst, COMAC grabs it, move the production to China and sells a revamp CRJ900 at discounted prices.

The current CRJ support is currently profitable and is an excellent base to later support the MR100.

Mitsu was NOT interested in the production side. BBD will therefore act as a subcontractor until 2020. Airbus will then take over the space and probably also most of the work force.

This is smart. The biggest thing In selling aircraft is supporting them. taking over an established logistics network is smart.

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:51 pm
by GalaxyFlyer
wave46 wrote:
william wrote:
How many of us here are old enough to remember when the CRJ 50 seater debuted (remember the articles in ATW, and Airways mags)? And how it changed the aviation scene. And now the company that ushered in that era is leaving the not only the segment but market.


The only inevitability in life is change. (except from a vending machine).

The market for regional aircraft just isn't what it used to be. Costs are going up and that makes regional operations more marginal by the day. Indeed, I imagine a reckoning will come for the future of the regional airlines - small airports/markets may see a precipitous decline in service as the days of cheap aircraft, fuel and labour come to an end.

I lament the end of the Canadian aerospace industry, but at least its swan song was a good one (CSeri...er....A220)


You do know aerospace doesn’t begin and end with airliners?

GF

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:57 pm
by queb
Waterbomber2 wrote:
For 6 times the mentionned amount, MHI could have bought out Embraer, their main competitor.


It's more about ten times since Embraer has been valued to $5.25 billions with the Boeing takeover (80% for 4.2 billion). Anyway, the brazilian government would have refused...

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:14 pm
by rsgolfpunk
Have the US3 shown an interest? The jet seems unnecessary for them.

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:28 pm
by AC77X
iceberg210 wrote:
"CRJ production is expected to conclude in the second half of 2020, following the delivery of the current backlog of aircraft."
From MHI press release.

So it's also about eliminating a competitor. Means after 2020 it'll be a two aircraft game, the EJets and the MRJ. Interesting developments. It's a bit odd that they'd commit to closing up shop before they had a chance to do some sales targeting, but that must have been part of the plan from day one.

Very unfortunate. The CRJ is revolutionary and iconic, and will be quite the loss to the industry. :tombstone:

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:40 pm
by multimark
Maybe a silly question, but why didn't BBD turn the Global Express family into commercial aircraft?

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:43 pm
by queb
multimark wrote:
Maybe a silly question, but why didn't BBD turn the Global Express family into commercial aircraft?


Global family is optimized for low cycle and ultra long range use

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:48 pm
by Revelation
multimark wrote:
Maybe a silly question, but why didn't BBD turn the Global Express family into commercial aircraft?

These days bizjet engines are designed for much less wear and tear than are commercial airliner jet engines, and beefing them up for commercial service is a very expensive activity that is hard to cost justify for the lower thrust ranges. In the old days the military paid to make TF34 (which became CF-34) beefy, now we live in different times.

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:35 pm
by Armaghman
Bad news fir Belfast site which builds Fuselage.

Bombardair Belfast at risk of death by 1000cuts

Can only hope Brexit gets sorted and with the uplift of A220 airbus commits to the wing program.

Re: BBD CEO: "We are divesting out of commercial, focus on business aircraft moving forward"

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:59 pm
by strfyr51
zuckie13 wrote:
JayinKitsap wrote:

NYC is still waiting on deliveries of the final 100 rail cars of 300, supposed to have been delivered by end of 2017, NYC stopped receiving because of problems with the cars they have.
https://business.financialpost.com/tran ... -are-fixed



Add to this that NYC Subway actually banned them from even bidding on the next order of cars they were letting.

NYC fell for the "Okey Doke" ! They could have gotten cars from Budd Co. Down the road in Philadelphia. They Got what they Paid for...

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:59 pm
by GalaxyFlyer
multimark wrote:
Maybe a silly question, but why didn't BBD turn the Global Express family into commercial aircraft?


In a sense, they did with the CRJ 700/900. The slatted wing was clean sheet but an outgrowth of the Global design as were some of the fuselage features—windows, better headroom, etc.

GF

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:26 pm
by crjflyboy
If this holds true, that CRJ production has met it's end … what will replace them in the market ?

Many communities rely on the CRJ 200 for air service as it's the proper passenger size for those markets. Larger aircraft wont work as every flight will likely lose money.

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:39 pm
by NW747-400
It’s sad to see the end of the CRJ approaching. While not the most popular airframe among the flying public, I’ve got thousands of hours flying her and she’s still the best airplane I’ve ever flown, especially the CR7. Just an all around fantastic pilot’s airplane and revolutionary for the regional segment.

Bombardier has made some amazing airframes and I can’t wait to try my hand at the A220. It’s a shame they couldn’t get their house in order and it’s come down to this.

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:48 pm
by GalaxyFlyer
crjflyboy wrote:
If this holds true, that CRJ production has met it's end … what will replace them in the market ?

Many communities rely on the CRJ 200 for air service as it's the proper passenger size for those markets. Larger aircraft wont work as every flight will likely lose money.


Reduced frequencies of larger RJs that were replaced on larger capacity routes by 717/A220 class planes. Or a van ride. I’m in New England, lots of smaller cities lost airline service to van/limo rides—Laconia, Rutland, etc.

GF

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 11:39 pm
by crjflyboy
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
crjflyboy wrote:
If this holds true, that CRJ production has met it's end … what will replace them in the market ?

Many communities rely on the CRJ 200 for air service as it's the proper passenger size for those markets. Larger aircraft wont work as every flight will likely lose money.


Reduced frequencies of larger RJs that were replaced on larger capacity routes by 717/A220 class planes. Or a van ride. I’m in New England, lots of smaller cities lost airline service to van/limo rides—Laconia, Rutland, etc.

GF


Laconia & Rutland had CRJ service ? Who knew given the length of their runways...

Laconia lost their EAS service given how clost they are to MHT

Rutland still has air sevice via CAPE to BOS

http://flyrutlandvt.com/

Your van - limo service wont work on routes of 300 - 400 - 500 - 600 miles or further

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:00 am
by LIJet
So, since the bizjet Challenger 600 variants, including the 650, all share the same Type Certificate with the CRJ variants, how is this going to work? Mitsubishi is now going to own the Type Certificate for one of Bombardier's current production large cabin business jets. Does this mean the end of the Challenger 600 variants as well? Who supports those going forward?

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 9:29 am
by PW100
Waterbomber2 wrote:
PW100 wrote:
And MHI will not take over the CRJ production facilities. They will "hire" Bombardier to build and deliver the remaining backlog on their behalf (suggesting they will take no further CRJ orders).


So what did they buy then? An empty shell, customer lists, warehouses, parts?

Seems stupid to me.
At the current rate, MHI won't be producing the MRJ at a high production rate until 5 years from now.
They can offer CRJ's as a stopgap solution to stop US airlines from ordering E1's.


They bough the CRJ aftermarket support network, which in itself should be a profitable business for some years to come.
And they will use that network and transform it into the MRJ support network.

Re: Updated: Mitsubishi finalising deal for acquisition of CRJ programme according to FlightGlobal

Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:00 am
by Waterbomber2
PW100 wrote:
Waterbomber2 wrote:
PW100 wrote:
And MHI will not take over the CRJ production facilities. They will "hire" Bombardier to build and deliver the remaining backlog on their behalf (suggesting they will take no further CRJ orders).


So what did they buy then? An empty shell, customer lists, warehouses, parts?

Seems stupid to me.
At the current rate, MHI won't be producing the MRJ at a high production rate until 5 years from now.
They can offer CRJ's as a stopgap solution to stop US airlines from ordering E1's.


They bough the CRJ aftermarket support network, which in itself should be a profitable business for some years to come.
And they will use that network and transform it into the MRJ support network.


You guys are saying profitable profitable but what is that based on? Supporting aircraft can be profitable but may I remind you that they will be competing with BBD's supply chain and other MRO's who also have those capabilities.
The only privilege is OEM engineering, for which they can charge big bucks.

But remember one thing. BBD's support was never at the same level as A and B. This was a major hindrance for the Cseries and a reason why it's selling so well now that it's under Airbus' wing.
This is one of the reasons why the CRJ's and ERJ's don't last more than 15 years at smaller operators.
Airbus and Boeing charge big money but they also take on liability for their repair instructions and service life extension programs and keep older airframes flying. There is more than a direct profit factor, there is the realisation that happy customers will buy Airbus/Boeing again.
BBD and Embraer's support systems are far behind.

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 11:59 am
by GalaxyFlyer
LIJet wrote:
So, since the bizjet Challenger 600 variants, including the 650, all share the same Type Certificate with the CRJ variants, how is this going to work? Mitsubishi is now going to own the Type Certificate for one of Bombardier's current production large cabin business jets. Does this mean the end of the Challenger 600 variants as well? Who supports those going forward?


The CRJ is on an amendment type, so they can separate them out.

GF

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 10:21 pm
by queb
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
LIJet wrote:
So, since the bizjet Challenger 600 variants, including the 650, all share the same Type Certificate with the CRJ variants, how is this going to work? Mitsubishi is now going to own the Type Certificate for one of Bombardier's current production large cabin business jets. Does this mean the end of the Challenger 600 variants as well? Who supports those going forward?


The CRJ is on an amendment type, so they can separate them out.

GF


Someone asked the question for us to BBD.

https://www.wingsoverquebec.com/?p=8618

Bombardier Business Aircraft media relation Manager Mr. Mark Masluch told us the following about the Challenger 650 and CRJ type certificate:

“We confirm that Bombardier is working with Transport Canada to divide / un-merge the certificate. The Challenger family will have its own certificate under the responsibility of Bombardier Aviation, as will MHI, which will have a certificate specific to the CRJ.

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 1:22 am
by GalaxyFlyer
I know Mark!

Interesting story on the type certificate and Canadair buying the rights to Bill Lear’s design back in the ‘70s. Part of the deal was a royalty paid to the Lear estate for every CL-600 series sold, on the order of $100,000. When the RJ program started production, the estate wanted the royalty for each RJ arguing it was an amendment to the original TC. Canadair and later BBD argued it was a different design despite being an amendment. BBD eventually lost in Quebec court and paid a lump sum settlement to the Lear estate. Years later at the 50th anniversary of the original Learjet, the Lear descendant Chandra (yes, that’s her name) was less than welcome at the NBAA celebration marking the event.

GF

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 2:06 am
by Revelation

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 6:56 am
by VV
LockheedBBD wrote:
leghorn wrote:
700million or more off the debt pile and the share price has barely budged. I can't believe the market already priced the deal in to the price.


VV is not going to be happy.



You are absolutely wrong. I am extremely happy with the agreement, although I do not see any benefit for Mitsubishi to acquire the CRJ program.

I still hold a bunch of Bombardier's stock (BBD.B).

This deal reduces the risk on the remaining of Bombardier and I expect the stock price will get better in 2020. I already made profit out of the holding by selling one third of it when its price was high, but the remaining holding can go beyond CA$ 70,000 when the deal with Mitsubishi will close in 2020.

It is a very good news. Absolutely.

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Thu Jun 27, 2019 7:02 am
by VV
queb wrote:
GalaxyFlyer wrote:
LIJet wrote:
So, since the bizjet Challenger 600 variants, including the 650, all share the same Type Certificate with the CRJ variants, how is this going to work? Mitsubishi is now going to own the Type Certificate for one of Bombardier's current production large cabin business jets. Does this mean the end of the Challenger 600 variants as well? Who supports those going forward?


The CRJ is on an amendment type, so they can separate them out.

GF


Someone asked the question for us to BBD.

https://www.wingsoverquebec.com/?p=8618

Bombardier Business Aircraft media relation Manager Mr. Mark Masluch told us the following about the Challenger 650 and CRJ type certificate:

“We confirm that Bombardier is working with Transport Canada to divide / un-merge the certificate. The Challenger family will have its own certificate under the responsibility of Bombardier Aviation, as will MHI, which will have a certificate specific to the CRJ.



The very interesting take away from this is that Mitsubishi could potentially derive a new aircraft from the CRJ.
Let's say they decide to make a business jet out of CRJ with a new engine. It is a possibility and Bombardier would have given them the mean to compete with their Challenger.

I am not sure it would happen, but from technical perspective it is possible and I would say it would be normal such that they can make new product with high margin from the CRJ acquisition.

It is not clear how extensive the IP transfer is from Bombardier to Mitsubishi. If everything is transferred including the detailed certification documentations and drawings then Mitsubishi can derive anything from it.

It is a very interesting perspective.

Re: Confirmed: Mitsubishi Heavy Industries to Acquire CRJ Program from Bombardier

Posted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:28 am
by VV
[twoid][/twoid]
Revelation wrote:


Excerpts from the article:

"Asked by FlightGlobal if MHI is looking to reach out to existing CRJ customers, especially in North America, to tout its SpaceJet programme as a viable regional jet replacement, the company would only say that the CRJ “has the sales relationships [and customer support] with [its] customers”."

Seriously?

A lot of the staff of sales/marketing team and customer support have been laid off, transferred to De Haviland Canada (Viking Air), transferred to Airbus or simply left the company.

CRJ production to end in 2020

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:42 am
by twaconnie
Will BBD completely get out of commercial aircraft? I think this is a big blow for Canadian workers and Canada as well..

Re: CRJ production to end in 2020

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:48 am
by jghealey
twaconnie wrote:
Will BBD completely get out of commercial aircraft? I think this is a big blow for Canadian workers and Canada as well..

Yes, it will be interesting to see what will happen to the CRJ final assembly plant... I wonder if it will be taken over by Airbus to create space for additional A220 production?

Re: CRJ production to end in 2020

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 1:18 pm
by twaconnie
jghealey wrote:
twaconnie wrote:
Will BBD completely get out of commercial aircraft? I think this is a big blow for Canadian workers and Canada as well..

Yes, it will be interesting to see what will happen to the CRJ final assembly plant... I wonder if it will be taken over by Airbus to create space for additional A220 production?

Also if they take over the final assy.plant will they still need the new southern location? The A220 is still not selling well.

Re: CRJ production to end in 2020

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:15 pm
by AC77X
twaconnie wrote:
jghealey wrote:
twaconnie wrote:
Will BBD completely get out of commercial aircraft? I think this is a big blow for Canadian workers and Canada as well..

Yes, it will be interesting to see what will happen to the CRJ final assembly plant... I wonder if it will be taken over by Airbus to create space for additional A220 production?

Also if they take over the final assy.plant will they still need the new southern location? The A220 is still not selling well.

Not selling well? The jet already has over 530 orders.

Re: CRJ production to end in 2020

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:26 pm
by 767333ER
Well we’ll just be left with the older model of the E175 then or at least the US will be because SpaceJet or whatever the want to call it next is going to be a disaster as Mitsubishi has already proven they have no clue how to engineer an aircraft. The sad thing is the CRJ-900 at this point is the most efficient offering for a regional jet that fits into scope clause at this time.

Re: CRJ production to end in 2020

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:41 pm
by MIflyer12
twaconnie wrote:
Will BBD completely get out of commercial aircraft? I think this is a big blow for Canadian workers and Canada as well..


It's a good outcome for Canadian and especially Quebecois taxpayers. Five decades of subsidiaries for Bombardier have been ridiculous. Other sources note that new CRJ production will end in 2020.

Re: CRJ production to end in 2020

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:58 pm
by Waterbomber2
[quote="767333ER"]Well we’ll just be left with the older model of the E175 then or at least the US will be because SpaceJet or whatever the want to call it next is going to be a disaster as Mitsubishi has already proven they have no clue how to engineer an aircraft. The sad thing is the CRJ-900 at this point is the most efficient offering for a regional jet that fits into scope clause at this time.[/quote]

The CR9 is an efficient platform.
I don't understand why MHI will shut down the CRJ assembly, every sale is a sale. Even if it's built in Canada the CRJ is one of their products now.

I see how shutting down production will incite airlines to look for replacement capacity as it will progressively become more expensive to keep the in-service fleet flying.

The problem with this is that unless MITAC does a miraculous ramp-up to the 120 per year target, any significant new Spacejet orders wouldn't start to be delivered for at least 5 years.

In addition, the CRJ family has a product that MITAC won't have anytime soon, the CRJ1000.

The CRJ hasn't sold in the past decade, not even in the NG version. The Ejet has done ok, but not spectacularly if we only consider the E170/E175.

Time to market will be important from now on.
If the Spacejet 90 starts being delivered next year as planned with the few dozen units to JL and NH in a successful EIS, MITAC needs to have its first Spacejet100 fully assembled in 2021 at the latest.
The question is how much engineering has already been done? Is the design frozen yet?

Re: CRJ production to end in 2020

Posted: Sat Jun 29, 2019 2:58 pm
by YYZLGA
MIflyer12 wrote:
[
It's a good outcome for Canadian and especially Quebecois taxpayers. Five decades of subsidiaries for Bombardier have been ridiculous. Other sources note that new CRJ production will end in 2020.


That's laughable. The economic contribution from the CRJ and its spinoffs has been vastly larger than any "subsidy" BBD has received, which, incidentally, was far less generous than that received by any other commercial aircraft manufacturer.