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LaunchDetected
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Re: Boeing in Negotiations With China for Largest-Ever Jetliner Order - Report

Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:30 am

There is "deal of the century" every year. And the same deal is announced 3 times:

1 - When the MoU is signed
2 - By the president during diplomatic visit
3 - When the real order is finally signed

And when it's a chinese airline you can even add another one annoucement by dissociating "Undisclosed Customer" from the real airline.
Caravelle lover
 
Aither
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Re: Boeing in Negotiations With China for Largest-Ever Jetliner Order - Report

Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:55 am

The 777-9X for China does not make any sense. The revenues from China of the additional seats versus the A350-1000 are too low to compensate for the additional trip cost. If it happens, it's a purely a political deal that's for sure.
Never trust the obvious
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Boeing in Negotiations With China for Largest-Ever Jetliner Order - Report

Thu Jun 06, 2019 12:52 pm

kitplane01 wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:
Isn’t the current trade deficit around $400bn? China needs to buy a lot of US aircraft to make a dent in that. Even though the deficit is shrinking. Politics, politics, politics. This time a round to Boeing, next week it’s Airbus.


Educate me. Has Europe been in a trade war with China recently, or even within the last 20 years? A trade war with tariff increases and retaliation?
I'm not trying to start a political debate, but I don't think your recollection of history is correct (though I'm always willing to be educated).

Europe seems less concerned about their IP being stolen. I also think Europe hasn’t seen an outflow or european corporations leaving the EU, set up factories in China then exporting back to the EU. Your question is a good one though
 
Bricktop
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Re: Boeing in Negotiations With China for Largest-Ever Jetliner Order - Report

Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:00 pm

Aither wrote:
The 777-9X for China does not make any sense. The revenues from China of the additional seats versus the A350-1000 are too low to compensate for the additional trip cost. If it happens, it's a purely a political deal that's for sure.

It's a political deal either way, Boeing or Airbus. They will figure out a way to use them just as they did with CZ's A388s and CA's B748s. Maybe sub-optimal, but it's the long game, vs the fanboy's 30 seconds of chortling at the other guy.
 
zakuivcustom
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Re: Boeing in Negotiations With China for Largest-Ever Jetliner Order - Report

Thu Jun 06, 2019 1:15 pm

Aither wrote:
The 777-9X for China does not make any sense. The revenues from China of the additional seats versus the A350-1000 are too low to compensate for the additional trip cost. If it happens, it's a purely a political deal that's for sure.


It's definitely all politics. But Trip Cost? When did CN3 (mainly) care about cost anyway?

Bricktop wrote:
It's a political deal either way, Boeing or Airbus. They will figure out a way to use them just as they did with CZ's A388s and CA's B748s. Maybe sub-optimal, but it's the long game, vs the fanboy's 30 seconds of chortling at the other guy.


To be fair, CZ actually wanted the A388 (Mainly for prestige, of course). CA's B748s is a little bit more political in a sense that they were dual-roled as China's "Air Force One" (Before CA turn one of the 748s into a dedicated "AF One")

Plus, come on, according to A380 fanbois on a.net, China should have ordered 100+ A380 to fly on domestic routes. :duck:
 
raylee67
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Re: Boeing in Negotiations With China for Largest-Ever Jetliner Order - Report

Thu Jun 06, 2019 3:34 pm

It is hard to see how such a high profile order will materialize unless there is a comprehensive trade deal. China will still order from Boeing without the trade deal but it would not be at this magnitude. And they will order the planes quietly.
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Elementalism
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Re: Boeing in Negotiations With China for Largest-Ever Jetliner Order - Report

Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:28 pm

NameOmitted wrote:
lightsaber wrote:
One way or another the deficit must decrease. Bummer Boeing is caught in the middle.

Why? Our two economies are not in isolation. Money flows around the globe.

A trade deficit now simply means we, as a country, is utilizing more purchasing power than China.


Yup and offshoring less efficient parts of our economy. Meaning people can buy those products cheaper and have more money in their pocket. Having a trade deficit is not a bad thing.
 
FlyingElvii
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Re: Boeing in Negotiations With China for Largest-Ever Jetliner Order - Report

Thu Jun 06, 2019 4:56 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
With the current trade climate between China and the USA, this is Airbus' order to lose.

This has “ Political leverage” written all over it.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Boeing in Negotiations With China for Largest-Ever Jetliner Order - Report

Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:03 pm

grbauc wrote:
Many act like it’s just one-sided issue. So much chicken little afraid oh god oh god oh god this trade war oh my oh my.

Fear is so much better for clicks and new stories rather than truth and the truth of the matter is it’s in the best interest of both countries To come to a conclusion. 419 billion in 2018. We stand in a powerful position, there is going to be some fear and jitters but in the big picture it will be a big plus.

Presidents don’t want to attack this issue due to the fact that we live on a four and eight year plan China’s on the hundred year plan looking forward to the future we’re on 4year short term plans.


You give the argument then the counter argument. China will never want to appear to lose against Trump. As long as Trump is so virulent, a deal will not happen. China can wait two or six more years, and retaliate, stopping rare earth exports for example. Xi will be there long after Trump is gone.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: Boeing in Negotiations With China for Largest-Ever Jetliner Order - Report

Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:07 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:
Isn’t the current trade deficit around $400bn? China needs to buy a lot of US aircraft to make a dent in that. Even though the deficit is shrinking. Politics, politics, politics. This time a round to Boeing, next week it’s Airbus.


Educate me. Has Europe been in a trade war with China recently, or even within the last 20 years? A trade war with tariff increases and retaliation?
I'm not trying to start a political debate, but I don't think your recollection of history is correct (though I'm always willing to be educated).

Europe seems less concerned about their IP being stolen. I also think Europe hasn’t seen an outflow or european corporations leaving the EU, set up factories in China then exporting back to the EU. Your question is a good one though


EU vs China is very similar, except that some EU countries manage to export to China much better than US companies, so the deficit is smaller. Also, the flow of offshoring has stopped, as Chinese salaries have gone up a lot, now Eastern European countries are cheaper than China.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Aesma
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Re: Boeing in Negotiations With China for Largest-Ever Jetliner Order - Report

Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:31 pm

Bobloblaw wrote:
downdata wrote:
Avgeek21 wrote:
Isn’t the current trade deficit around $400bn? China needs to buy a lot of US aircraft to make a dent in that. Even though the deficit is shrinking. Politics, politics, politics. This time a round to Boeing, next week it’s Airbus.


What does trade deficits have to do with anything? If they stop trading the deficit will be zero and everyone in both countries will go back 20 years in development. The US is an advanced economy with high living standards that doesn’t need to produce things like shoes and clothing and manufacture furnitures and basic intermediate materials.

Unless your version of a fair economy is half of american people working in sweatshops like Foxconn, stop talking about the deficit like it means anything.

Going back in time to before China was in the WTO would be a huge gain for the USA. 3.5 million jobs were lost to China between 2001 and 2007. Most of what the USA imports from China isn’t built by Chinese companies but by US companies that outsourced production to China. Ditto Mexico


The companies would just move to Vietnam or Bangladesh, then.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
PlanesNTrains
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Re: Boeing in Negotiations With China for Largest-Ever Jetliner Order - Report

Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:37 pm

Aesma wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
kitplane01 wrote:

Educate me. Has Europe been in a trade war with China recently, or even within the last 20 years? A trade war with tariff increases and retaliation?
I'm not trying to start a political debate, but I don't think your recollection of history is correct (though I'm always willing to be educated).

Europe seems less concerned about their IP being stolen. I also think Europe hasn’t seen an outflow or european corporations leaving the EU, set up factories in China then exporting back to the EU. Your question is a good one though


EU vs China is very similar, except that some EU countries manage to export to China much better than US companies, so the deficit is smaller. Also, the flow of offshoring has stopped, as Chinese salaries have gone up a lot, now Eastern European countries are cheaper than China.


At this stage, I'd rather see more jobs head south to Mexico and less across the ocean to Asia. Lifting up the Mexican economy can't hurt.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.
 
BestWestern
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Re: Boeing in Negotiations With China for Largest-Ever Jetliner Order - Report

Thu Jun 06, 2019 5:43 pm

Huawei.

China will extract a pretty dollar for what’s going on here.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
behramjee
Posts: 4931
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Re: Boeing in Negotiations With China for Largest-Ever Jetliner Order - Report

Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:33 pm

I am very surprised that amongst the big 3 Chinese carriers they combined operate only 20 B77Fs i.e. 8 for CA + 12 for CZ whilst MU has 0.

Considering how big all 3 cities (PEK PVG CAN) are for cargo, I would have expected them to combine operate at least 35-40 B77Fs by now. Ideally I feel they should have at least 15-20 B77Fs each by 2025.

I hope at least 10 B77Fs constitute a part of this upcoming mega order.
 
Bobloblaw
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Re: Boeing in Negotiations With China for Largest-Ever Jetliner Order - Report

Thu Jun 06, 2019 6:41 pm

PlanesNTrains wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Bobloblaw wrote:
Europe seems less concerned about their IP being stolen. I also think Europe hasn’t seen an outflow or european corporations leaving the EU, set up factories in China then exporting back to the EU. Your question is a good one though


EU vs China is very similar, except that some EU countries manage to export to China much better than US companies, so the deficit is smaller. Also, the flow of offshoring has stopped, as Chinese salaries have gone up a lot, now Eastern European countries are cheaper than China.


At this stage, I'd rather see more jobs head south to Mexico and less across the ocean to Asia. Lifting up the Mexican economy can't hurt.

Nafta was suppose to do that. It didn’t. Mexican gdp has grown slower in the 25 years since nafta than before and illegal immigration actually increased after nafta
 
grbauc
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Re: Boeing in Negotiations With China for Largest-Ever Jetliner Order - Report

Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:16 pm

Aesma wrote:
grbauc wrote:
Many act like it’s just one-sided issue. So much chicken little afraid oh god oh god oh god this trade war oh my oh my.

Fear is so much better for clicks and new stories rather than truth and the truth of the matter is it’s in the best interest of both countries To come to a conclusion. 419 billion in 2018. We stand in a powerful position, there is going to be some fear and jitters but in the big picture it will be a big plus.

Presidents don’t want to attack this issue due to the fact that we live on a four and eight year plan China’s on the hundred year plan looking forward to the future we’re on 4year short term plans.


You give the argument then the counter argument. China will never want to appear to lose against Trump. As long as Trump is so virulent, a deal will not happen. China can wait two or six more years, and retaliate, stopping rare earth exports for example. Xi will be there long after Trump is gone.



I don't believe they care if they give Trump credit/win or not they control the information to there people. I personally don't believe they want to wait 2 are 6 years. China has already put out information that they can go on a buying spree and erase much of the deficit back in JAN.

"As long as Trump is so virulent" I don't believe virulent is correct but to I think your point Negotiations tactics (especially Trump) stand far to the side of your position so you can compromise and meet in you're middle.

Again I believe It's in both Countries Best interest to do a deal.

[img][https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-01-18/china-is-said-to-offer-path-to-eliminate-u-s-trade-imbalance/img]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... -imbalance
 
smartplane
Posts: 1024
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Re: Boeing in Negotiations With China for Largest-Ever Jetliner Order - Report

Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:29 pm

China is an extremely strategic purchaser.

Their airlines alone don't make multi-billion dollar purchase decisions.

The order will dangle, just out of reach, until the US elect a different President.
 
Checklist787
Posts: 157
Joined: Sat Jun 01, 2019 2:37 am

Re: Boeing in Negotiations With China for Largest-Ever Jetliner Order - Report

Thu Jun 06, 2019 8:35 pm

Aither wrote:
The 777-9X for China does not make any sense. The revenues from China of the additional seats versus the A350-1000 are too low to compensate for the additional trip cost. If it happens, it's a purely a political deal that's for sure.


Your comment is unfounded. On the contrary they are preparing to commit an order of 777-X which will be added to the current 777-300ER... :bigthumbsup:
 
PlanesNTrains
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Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:19 pm

Re: Boeing in Negotiations With China for Largest-Ever Jetliner Order - Report

Thu Jun 06, 2019 9:45 pm

smartplane wrote:
China is an extremely strategic purchaser.

Their airlines alone don't make multi-billion dollar purchase decisions.

The order will dangle, just out of reach, until the US elect a different President.


Six years is a long time to wait to order these planes. They might as well order Airbus then.
-Dave


MAX’d out on MAX threads. If you are starting a thread, and it’s about the MAX - stop. There’s already a thread that covers it.

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