Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
CRJ200flyer wrote:GPS Outage Map
Moderators - please adjust the title to something like “US GPS Outage” as this issue is still ongoing and affecting many aircraft types across many carriers.
ATCSCC ADVZY 030 DCC 06/09/2019 GUIDANCE FOR GPS/ADS-B ANOMALIES
MESSAGE:
EVENT TIME: 09/1240 - 10/0400
COMMAND CENTER HAS APPROVED BLANKET WAIVER FOR ALL FLIGHTS
CURRENTLY
HAVING GPS/ADS-B ISSUES WITH THEIR TRANSPONDERS. INDIVIDUAL WAIVER
REQUESTS TO THE COMMAND CENTER ARE NO LONGER NECESSARY. HOWEVER,
AFFECTED FLIGHTS SHOULD FILE FLIGHT PLANS VIA THE FOLLOWING
PARAMETERS:
YOU MUST FILE FL280 AND BELOW. YOU MUST FILE RNAV ROUTING AND IF
YOU
ARE UNABLE,YOU MUST FILE VIA TRADITIONAL AIRWAYS AND/OR NAVAIDS.
THIS BLANKET APPROVAL IS VALID ONLY UNTIL JUNE 10, 0400Z.
EFFECTIVE TIME:
091242 - 100430
SIGNATURE:
19/06/09 12:42
kabq737 wrote:Looks like Mesa is really struggling to cope.
Has anyone heard anything from Rockwell Collins on the matter yet?
Weatherwatcher1 wrote:kabq737 wrote:Looks like Mesa is really struggling to cope.
Has anyone heard anything from Rockwell Collins on the matter yet?
Do you have any information on what the impact is on Mesa?
kabq737 wrote:Weatherwatcher1 wrote:kabq737 wrote:Looks like Mesa is really struggling to cope.
Has anyone heard anything from Rockwell Collins on the matter yet?
Do you have any information on what the impact is on Mesa?
This is unconfirmed as it is just word of mouth but I am told that they are unable to MEL GPS more than one flight in a row. That’s just what I was told though.
Various online reports suggested impacted planes were mostly CRJ jets made by Canada’s Bombardier, but also some Boeing 737s, 717s and possibly a 767 as well. "We are working to determine the cause of the problem," the FAA said in a statement, "which may have resulted from a software update to the aircraft navigation systems."
strfyr51 wrote:So Let me get this straight. Nobody knows how to Navigate using the High and Low charts?? REALLY? INS Direct is cool and SAT NAV is cooler but if you can't fly VOR Nav? Then your piloting skills are Lacking
strfyr51 wrote:So Let me get this straight. Nobody knows how to Navigate using the High and Low charts?? REALLY? INS Direct is cool and SAT NAV is cooler but if you can't fly VOR Nav? Then your piloting skills are Lacking
N766UA wrote:strfyr51 wrote:So Let me get this straight. Nobody knows how to Navigate using the High and Low charts?? REALLY? INS Direct is cool and SAT NAV is cooler but if you can't fly VOR Nav? Then your piloting skills are Lacking
What’s a VOR?
strfyr51 wrote:So Let me get this straight. Nobody knows how to Navigate using the High and Low charts?? REALLY? INS Direct is cool and SAT NAV is cooler but if you can't fly VOR Nav? Then your piloting skills are Lacking
GalaxyFlyer wrote:Can’t say for the CRJ, but the same system in a Challenger just reverted to DME-DME for RNAV which I would guess should work over the US for enroute and some terminal navigation. But, obviously, it’s more complicated than that.
BTW, I’ve flown with newbies who I wonder could fly VOR navigation. It’s not difficult, but if you’ve never done it, it’s different.
bradyj23 wrote:GalaxyFlyer wrote:Can’t say for the CRJ, but the same system in a Challenger just reverted to DME-DME for RNAV which I would guess should work over the US for enroute and some terminal navigation. But, obviously, it’s more complicated than that.
BTW, I’ve flown with newbies who I wonder could fly VOR navigation. It’s not difficult, but if you’ve never done it, it’s different.
CRJ is the same. It flies just fine without GPS.
Like others have said, it isnt that the crews/plane cannot do it. Its a HUGE paperwork issue.
kabq737 wrote:strfyr51 wrote:So Let me get this straight. Nobody knows how to Navigate using the High and Low charts?? REALLY? INS Direct is cool and SAT NAV is cooler but if you can't fly VOR Nav? Then your piloting skills are Lacking
Wow what a ridiculous statement.
Do your research before criticizing trained professionals. It isn't that the pilots can't fly VORs it's all about MEL issues and getting operating approval. The pilots have no issues with "flying the green needles" it's a matter of getting approval to do so.
strfyr51 wrote:kabq737 wrote:strfyr51 wrote:So Let me get this straight. Nobody knows how to Navigate using the High and Low charts?? REALLY? INS Direct is cool and SAT NAV is cooler but if you can't fly VOR Nav? Then your piloting skills are Lacking
Wow what a ridiculous statement.
Do your research before criticizing trained professionals. It isn't that the pilots can't fly VORs it's all about MEL issues and getting operating approval. The pilots have no issues with "flying the green needles" it's a matter of getting approval to do so.
I'M not criticizing Pilots, but Sat Nav can be "Hacked" and it may BE being Hacked as we speak. the VOR was at least reliable and pretty much Un-Hackable as they were Ground Based We're going down a rabbit hole focusing only on it. Satellite Nav is good, But we have seen the effects when it doesn't work!! and we have NO Backup.
And? I was a Pilot though I trained before Sat Nav became the" be al to end all" . I've got 5500 Hours in total though I can no longer fly as I lost sight in my left eye so now I'm a passenger..
N766UA wrote:strfyr51 wrote:So Let me get this straight. Nobody knows how to Navigate using the High and Low charts?? REALLY? INS Direct is cool and SAT NAV is cooler but if you can't fly VOR Nav? Then your piloting skills are Lacking
What’s a VOR?
Utah744 wrote:N766UA wrote:strfyr51 wrote:So Let me get this straight. Nobody knows how to Navigate using the High and Low charts?? REALLY? INS Direct is cool and SAT NAV is cooler but if you can't fly VOR Nav? Then your piloting skills are Lacking
What’s a VOR?
Very Old Radio.
strfyr51 wrote:kabq737 wrote:strfyr51 wrote:So Let me get this straight. Nobody knows how to Navigate using the High and Low charts?? REALLY? INS Direct is cool and SAT NAV is cooler but if you can't fly VOR Nav? Then your piloting skills are Lacking
Wow what a ridiculous statement.
Do your research before criticizing trained professionals. It isn't that the pilots can't fly VORs it's all about MEL issues and getting operating approval. The pilots have no issues with "flying the green needles" it's a matter of getting approval to do so.
I'M not criticizing Pilots, but Sat Nav can be "Hacked" and it may BE being Hacked as we speak. the VOR was at least reliable and pretty much Un-Hackable as they were Ground Based We're going down a rabbit hole focusing only on it. Satellite Nav is good, But we have seen the effects when it doesn't work!! and we have NO Backup.
And? I was a Pilot though I trained before Sat Nav became the" be al to end all" . I've got 5500 Hours in total though I can no longer fly as I lost sight in my left eye so now I'm a passenger..
zuckie13 wrote:Leap Seconds? That makes no sense to me. I'm thinking that is the wrong terminology.
Some basics:
GPS Almanac - Basically a set of information that allows a receiver to know where the gps satellites are without waiting to download that information from the signals the satellites broadcast. Speeds up the time to get an initial position solution if you don't have recent the broadcast ephemeris (position data) on your receiver.
Leap Second - A second added or subtracted from Universal Coordinated Time (UTC). These are only added on June 30 or Dec 31 and there is none scheduled for June (last one was in 2016).
UTC - The time you normally use (basically the same as Greenwich Standard Time) with a timezone offset for wherever you are. Leap seconds are added to keep this time in sync with earth's slowing rotation.
GPS Time - The time a GPS satellite uses. Started in 1980. Does NOT have leap seconds added to it. If you want to get UTC time from GPS time you need to include the number of GPS seconds added since 1/6/1980 when GPS time started (I believe 18).
To me, if it's an issue with some piece of data related to time I would not expect anything to "jump" one week to the next.
For the record the phrase "we do not believe this update will include......" would get me fired if I used that to pray for a fix.
zuckie13 wrote:Leap Seconds? That makes no sense to me. I'm thinking that is the wrong terminology.
slowrambler wrote:zuckie13 wrote:Leap Seconds? That makes no sense to me. I'm thinking that is the wrong terminology.
It's correct. Although GPS time does not have leap seconds itself, GPS broadcasts a notification that a leap second is about to happen (which will occur June 30 this year). Apparently the software wasn't tested to handle this information properly. It "jumped" because that's when they switched the notification on.
zuckie13 wrote:slowrambler wrote:zuckie13 wrote:Leap Seconds? That makes no sense to me. I'm thinking that is the wrong terminology.
It's correct. Although GPS time does not have leap seconds itself, GPS broadcasts a notification that a leap second is about to happen (which will occur June 30 this year). Apparently the software wasn't tested to handle this information properly. It "jumped" because that's when they switched the notification on.
As I said above there is no leap second this June. They are announced 5ish months before they happen. This is the bulletin from IERS who announce it (https://datacenter.iers.org/data/latest ... IN_C16.txt):
"NO leap second will be introduced at the end of June 2019."