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readytotaxi
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Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:07 am

From the 1st September Air New Zealand will end a ban on staff having visible tattoos, in a move it says will allow staff to express cultural and individual diversity.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-48577668

"A spokesperson for the national carrier said it would "treat tattoos like speech" to determine what would be considered offensive."

Sounds like a good policy.
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OA940
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:29 am

I honestly never got this policy. Assuming your tattoo doesn't depict something offensive then there's no need for all this fuss
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par13del
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Mon Jun 10, 2019 11:26 am

5 months of research, wow, the Maori's have been around for how many centuries, the current tattoo craze started what 20 to 30 years ago, safe to say the original purpose was to keep certain people out. Just amazing what 5 months of research can reveal.
Good job.
 
smi0006
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:10 pm

Can’t believe it too them so long, they were happy to have the Koru on the tail, but not allow their people to wear ta Mokos.

Now hopefully one day we’ll see them end the absurd need for female staff to wear make up and high heals!
 
aviationaware
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Mon Jun 10, 2019 12:25 pm

smi0006 wrote:

Now hopefully one day we’ll see them end the absurd need for female staff to wear make up and high heals!


Most women enjoy wearing make-up. I'd wager to say the type that wants to become a flight attendant most certainly do.
 
tonystan
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Mon Jun 10, 2019 8:44 pm

aviationaware wrote:
smi0006 wrote:

Now hopefully one day we’ll see them end the absurd need for female staff to wear make up and high heals!


Most women enjoy wearing make-up. I'd wager to say the type that wants to become a flight attendant most certainly do.

You would lose that wager!
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RWA380
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:33 pm

tonystan wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
smi0006 wrote:

Now hopefully one day we’ll see them end the absurd need for female staff to wear make up and high heals!


Most women enjoy wearing make-up. I'd wager to say the type that wants to become a flight attendant most certainly do.

You would lose that wager!


I will second your assertion, women wear makeup to fit the antiquated version of a "professional" to compete in the marketplace, just to be paid an average of 13% less for the same work. Makeup is time consuming & costly. The products that actually work & are free of toxic ingredients are more costly per ounce than the liquors I enjoy.

While Kylie Jenner loves make-up & her adolescent following, those customers are living with their families & often have expendable income & more time in their lives, than the hard working full time F/A. I would bet if women had their choices, they'd be using minimal makeup & would enjoy wearing jeans or sweats.

Our misogynistic society is not ready to accept that new version of the modern woman. I would be surprised if more than 20% of women like putting on a full face & if they do, it's likely because they have been cultivated by the advertising industry to feel insecure going out without it.

My two cents & the input of a couple of lifelong friends that fly for a living. Everyone is different & I am a guy who dislikes the image of a painted up woman. Anything that could protect a F/A's skin would be desirable, those low humidity cabins are murder on a moisturizing routine.

On topic: I think the tribal tattoos are beautiful & intricate, the history of it all is interesting & seems rather important to those that wear them. I am pleased, once again, to see New Zealand reacting normally to an issue & being good to it's people. My hope is, more carriers come correct with the times we live in & quit perpetuating an antiquated beauty ideal.
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aviationaware
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:49 pm

RWA380 wrote:
just to be paid an average of 13% less for the same work.


Can you name one airline where female flight attendants of the same seniority are paid differently than male flight attendants? No, of course you can't.

RWA380 wrote:
I would bet if women had their choices, they'd be using minimal makeup & would enjoy wearing jeans or sweats.


Some certainly. Most, no.

RWA380 wrote:
Our misogynistic society is not ready to accept that new version of the modern woman.


More like, our society is focussed on reproduction and that's not going to happen much with how you'd like to see women. It's not like this is a big revelation, this is actually backed by decades of behavioral science.
Last edited by aviationaware on Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
seanpmassey
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:51 pm

aviationaware wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
just to be paid an average of 13% less for the same work.


Can you name one airline where female flight attendants of the same seniority are paid differently than male flight attendants? No, of course you can't.

RWA380 wrote:
I would bet if women had their choices, they'd be using minimal makeup & would enjoy wearing jeans or sweats.


Some certainly. Most, no.


I don't think that statistic was specifically for flight attendants but a comparison of wages between men and women across all professional fields.
 
aviationaware
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Mon Jun 10, 2019 9:53 pm

seanpmassey wrote:

I don't think that statistic was specifically for flight attendants but a comparison of wages between men and women across all professional fields.


Well even then he'd be wrong. Anyone who seriously believes there is a wage gap in the double digits has lost their marbles.
 
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RWA380
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:52 am

seanpmassey wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
just to be paid an average of 13% less for the same work.


Can you name one airline where female flight attendants of the same seniority are paid differently than male flight attendants? No, of course you can't.

RWA380 wrote:
I would bet if women had their choices, they'd be using minimal makeup & would enjoy wearing jeans or sweats.


Some certainly. Most, no.


I don't think that statistic was specifically for flight attendants but a comparison of wages between men and women across all professional fields.


Correct, I felt the statistic was obvious enough for a general audience, I stand corrected.

aviationaware wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
just to be paid an average of 13% less for the same work.


Can you name one airline where female flight attendants of the same seniority are paid differently than male flight attendants? No, of course you can't.

RWA380 wrote:
I would bet if women had their choices, they'd be using minimal makeup & would enjoy wearing jeans or sweats.


Some certainly. Most, no.

RWA380 wrote:
Our misogynistic society is not ready to accept that new version of the modern woman.


More like, our society is focussed on reproduction and that's not going to happen much with how you'd like to see women. It's not like this is a big revelation, this is actually backed by decades of behavioral science.


There was a thread not so long ago on A.net, in it, and off topic, there was a sub-discussion about pay disparity with Middle Eastern & Asian Carriers. I would venture to say that it's common knowledge among industry leaders that it is currently happening & companies are addressing this issue across the board, with all industries. The bigger the company, the more high profile the issue will become.

Considering flight attendants are predominantly women currently, there is going to be a lot of accommodations made in the future to retain good flight attendants well past the age of marriage & children, then & only then, will the true modern woman will appear, in a realistic form with her flaws for all to see.

But the evolved woman does not derive her esteem from a bag full of cosmetics, she is confident her skills as a senior F/A, she knows this is all that is required to retain her job & advance in her position. I find it mildly offensive as a man, that you would suggest that women get painted up to procreate, because if they didn't a man won't want her. Ugh!

Secondly your comments about women reinforce my stance, men have no business making decisions for women. Certainly you can understand that a flight attendant, which is the topic of this thread supposedly, has nothing to do with reproduction & the fact that you, in your mind, equate the two enough to mention them in the same comment, speaks volumes about your awareness.

Lastly, I NEVER once suggested how I'd like to see women other than comfortable, ask the last guy on A.net who started putting words in my mouth how it worked out for him, it was you that has created a sad narrative on how women should appear by making obviously leading comments. I have no horse in the race, I'm Gay! My comments were based off of my longtime friends in the industry, what are your comments based upon? The last Cosmo article on "ten things a girl wants?"
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aviationaware
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:07 am

RWA380 wrote:
But the evolved woman does not derive her esteem from a bag full of cosmetics, she is confident her skills as a senior F/A, she knows this is all that is required to retain her job & advance in her position. I find it mildly offensive as a man, that you would suggest that women get painted up to procreate, because if they didn't a man won't want her. Ugh!


Women wear make-up because it emulates certain characteristics of physical display of arousal. I.e. women wear rouge and red lipstick because it emulates the sexual flush on arousal. That is an established fact and not disputed among credible scientists. So find offensive what you will, it does not change the underlying facts.
 
Antarius
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:25 am

aviationaware wrote:
seanpmassey wrote:

I don't think that statistic was specifically for flight attendants but a comparison of wages between men and women across all professional fields.


Well even then he'd be wrong. Anyone who seriously believes there is a wage gap in the double digits has lost their marbles.


The commonly cited sources and research indicate as much. Care to cite a source for the marble less?
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SL1200MK2
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:30 am

aviationaware wrote:
smi0006 wrote:

Now hopefully one day we’ll see them end the absurd need for female staff to wear make up and high heals!


Most women enjoy wearing make-up. I'd wager to say the type that wants to become a flight attendant most certainly do.


That’s amazing! You’ve spoken with most women and have solid numbers to back this one up?
 
910A
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:32 am

aviationaware wrote:
seanpmassey wrote:

I don't think that statistic was specifically for flight attendants but a comparison of wages between men and women across all professional fields.


Well even then he'd be wrong. Anyone who seriously believes there is a wage gap in the double digits has lost their marbles.


Perhaps you should read these: https://www.aauw.org/research/the-simpl ... r-pay-gap/
https://iwpr.org/issue/employment-educa ... imination/
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... gap-facts/
https://www.payscale.com/data/gender-pay-gap
https://www.businessinsider.com/gender- ... rts-2017-3

Each of these talk about a 20% wage gap.
 
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Alphazone
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:44 am

Back to the topic, I think it's a terrible idea, my opinion of tattoos is that they are repulsive and form of self-harm.
Spirit of the Northwest People
 
aviationaware
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:46 am

910A wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
seanpmassey wrote:

I don't think that statistic was specifically for flight attendants but a comparison of wages between men and women across all professional fields.


Well even then he'd be wrong. Anyone who seriously believes there is a wage gap in the double digits has lost their marbles.


Perhaps you should read these: https://www.aauw.org/research/the-simpl ... r-pay-gap/
https://iwpr.org/issue/employment-educa ... imination/
https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2 ... gap-facts/
https://www.payscale.com/data/gender-pay-gap
https://www.businessinsider.com/gender- ... rts-2017-3

Each of these talk about a 20% wage gap.


That’s at the very least grossly misleading. Almost all of that gap is due to different choices women make such as...
1) Women are far more likely to select a career that is less scalable and thus pays less. This factor even increases if you remove all obstacles for women as is evidenced by the scandinavian countries where the share of women in engineering and STEM fields dropped over the years.
2) Women are more agreeable on average and thus less likely to confrontatively ask for a raise in a non-collective bargaining environment.
3) Women are far more likely to chose to work part time.
4) Women are far more likely to stay at home for a longer period if time to care for a family member, be that a child or a senior, and as an effect lose earning power over the term of their career.

Not adjusting for any of this when looking at pay disparity is absolutely dishonest and can’t be allowed to stand. It insinuates that the disparity is due to some overarching sexism in our society or structural misogyny or whatever. Looking at the unadjusted pay gap tells you absolutely nothing of substance and is pure ideological bullshit.

Here’s some real reading on it. You need to be subscribed but just looking at the graphic on top tells you all you need to know about the dishonesty of the entire debate.
Https://www.economist.com/graphic-detai ... -same-work

Alphazone wrote:
Back to the topic, I think it's a terrible idea, my opinion of tattoos is that they are repulsive and form of self-harm.


To which everyone is and should be entitled. You sign a disclaimer before getting a tattoo or piercing.
Last edited by aviationaware on Tue Jun 11, 2019 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:19 am

1) first of all tattoos in aviation ... gross
2) tattoos show poor decision making skills
3) way for airlines to make employees unprofessional in appearance so they can pay work groups less
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:26 am

Alphazone wrote:
Back to the topic, I think it's a terrible idea, my opinion of tattoos is that they are repulsive and form of self-harm.


That's a shame. In non anglo based cultures tattoos can be viewed as entirely the opposite. A big example of that is Polynesian culture. Stuff like tā moko is considered an honorable and expected part of one's life. To get a tā moko is to connect one to one's past and to acknowledge life achievements.

I'm curious. Would you consider simple pierced ears with small rings or studs in them to be a form of self harm?

What about makeup in general?

Personally I think this is a good and long overdue step. You still won't get to have jaw tats that say Devat8. But otherwise reasonable tattoos are allowed.

Consider that even the NZ Navy gave dispensation for a sailor to get a full face tā moko. https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zeal ... -moko.html
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:26 am

Was under the impression Pilots and Flight Attendants we’re going to be able to have them now. From the article it does not imply this fully.

I prefer a strict ban on tattoos for all flight crew members.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:29 am

Just be glad there still is QANTAS to get to New Zealand....
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:30 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
1) first of all tattoos in aviation ... gross
2) tattoos show poor decision making skills
3) way for airlines to make employees unprofessional in appearance so they can pay work groups less


Down here in NZ tattoos are considered perfectly normal. Part of that is an increased merging of Polynesian Māori culture with the Anglo/Euro culture of our ancestors. And part of it is an acceptance that what one does to one's own body is up to them. Short of getting tats that are intentionally aggressive or otherwise inciting, very few here care.

This has barely been a blip in the NZ news. People generally don't care.
 
FlyHappy
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:48 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
1) first of all tattoos in aviation ... gross
2) tattoos show poor decision making skills
3) way for airlines to make employees unprofessional in appearance so they can pay work groups less


whats your empirical evidence that "tattoos show poor decision making skills" ? awfully curious.
Justin Trudeau, Winston Churchill, Teddy Roosevelt, George V (of UK), Barry Goldwater, Frederick IX (Denmark) all had tattoos.... but none worked in aviation, so apparently okay?
 
speedbird52
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:52 am

RWA380 wrote:
tonystan wrote:
aviationaware wrote:

Most women enjoy wearing make-up. I'd wager to say the type that wants to become a flight attendant most certainly do.

You would lose that wager!


I will second your assertion, women wear makeup to fit the antiquated version of a "professional" to compete in the marketplace, just to be paid an average of 13% less for the same work. Makeup is time consuming & costly. The products that actually work & are free of toxic ingredients are more costly per ounce than the liquors I enjoy.

While Kylie Jenner loves make-up & her adolescent following, those customers are living with their families & often have expendable income & more time in their lives, than the hard working full time F/A. I would bet if women had their choices, they'd be using minimal makeup & would enjoy wearing jeans or sweats.

Our misogynistic society is not ready to accept that new version of the modern woman. I would be surprised if more than 20% of women like putting on a full face & if they do, it's likely because they have been cultivated by the advertising industry to feel insecure going out without it.

My two cents & the input of a couple of lifelong friends that fly for a living. Everyone is different & I am a guy who dislikes the image of a painted up woman. Anything that could protect a F/A's skin would be desirable, those low humidity cabins are murder on a moisturizing routine.

On topic: I think the tribal tattoos are beautiful & intricate, the history of it all is interesting & seems rather important to those that wear them. I am pleased, once again, to see New Zealand reacting normally to an issue & being good to it's people. My hope is, more carriers come correct with the times we live in & quit perpetuating an antiquated beauty ideal.

Damnnn this is the most woke I have ever seen anet be. I will disagree with you. At least half the women I know do enjoy putting make up on. However, they would be livid at the idea of requiring it.
 
smi0006
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:54 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
1) first of all tattoos in aviation ... gross
2) tattoos show poor decision making skills
3) way for airlines to make employees unprofessional in appearance so they can pay work groups less


I don’t judge people on their appearance, and my observations this is a common value taught to children in my culture. It

I do however judge people by their values and behaviour, and your assumptions and bias are far more repulsive than any cultural or fashion tattoo could be. I would note, offensive tattoos, depicting imagery or words that invites or is derogatory towards another are offensive.
 
KlimaBXsst
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:57 am

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:

Down here in NZ tattoos are considered perfectly normal. Part of that is an increased merging of Polynesian Māori culture with the Anglo/Euro culture of our ancestors. And part of it is an acceptance that what one does to one's own body is up to them. Short of getting tats that are intentionally aggressive or otherwise inciting, very few here care.

This has barely been a blip in the NZ news. People generally don't care.


Hey, I was aware of the fondness for tattooing Polynesian Māori culture has, but I and many of us have a fondness for aviation culture too. Frankly woman who wear anklets, thumb rings, toe rings, nose rings, tattoos are COMPLETELY undateable and what polite society consider trashy and lower class.

Of course polite society would never explain that, to those who are adorned with such features, but that is exactly how some think. In fact polite society would not even bother to slum to discuss this topic, but as I am totally blue collar, and understand how some of this old money thinks... I am just sharing.

I implore you in aviation not to encourage tattoos even though it may be an option. Have respect for yourself and your profession in aviation and cover them up.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
smi0006
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 2:58 am

speedbird52 wrote:
RWA380 wrote:
tonystan wrote:
You would lose that wager!


I will second your assertion, women wear makeup to fit the antiquated version of a "professional" to compete in the marketplace, just to be paid an average of 13% less for the same work. Makeup is time consuming & costly. The products that actually work & are free of toxic ingredients are more costly per ounce than the liquors I enjoy.

While Kylie Jenner loves make-up & her adolescent following, those customers are living with their families & often have expendable income & more time in their lives, than the hard working full time F/A. I would bet if women had their choices, they'd be using minimal makeup & would enjoy wearing jeans or sweats.

Our misogynistic society is not ready to accept that new version of the modern woman. I would be surprised if more than 20% of women like putting on a full face & if they do, it's likely because they have been cultivated by the advertising industry to feel insecure going out without it.

My two cents & the input of a couple of lifelong friends that fly for a living. Everyone is different & I am a guy who dislikes the image of a painted up woman. Anything that could protect a F/A's skin would be desirable, those low humidity cabins are murder on a moisturizing routine.

On topic: I think the tribal tattoos are beautiful & intricate, the history of it all is interesting & seems rather important to those that wear them. I am pleased, once again, to see New Zealand reacting normally to an issue & being good to it's people. My hope is, more carriers come correct with the times we live in & quit perpetuating an antiquated beauty ideal.

Damnnn this is the most woke I have ever seen anet be. I will disagree with you. At least half the women I know do enjoy putting make up on. However, they would be livid at the idea of requiring it.


I think you hit the nail on the head, I wasn’t suggesting make up be banned, I was suggesting it’s about time that it was up to the individual to choose. I would also add mandatory skirts/dresses for females as another policy that should have died in the 70s/80s when we stopped weighing ‘stewardesses’ in most countries
 
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Alphazone
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:00 am

aviationaware wrote:
Alphazone wrote:
Back to the topic, I think it's a terrible idea, my opinion of tattoos is that they are repulsive and form of self-harm.


To which everyone is and should be entitled. You sign a disclaimer before getting a tattoo or piercing.


Actually, what you wrote, that citizens should have a right to self-destructive behavior, doesn’t make sense. The society should try to limit destructive behaviors e.g. by outlawing tattooism, in order to curtail delinquency.
Spirit of the Northwest People
 
smi0006
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:01 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:

Down here in NZ tattoos are considered perfectly normal. Part of that is an increased merging of Polynesian Māori culture with the Anglo/Euro culture of our ancestors. And part of it is an acceptance that what one does to one's own body is up to them. Short of getting tats that are intentionally aggressive or otherwise inciting, very few here care.

This has barely been a blip in the NZ news. People generally don't care.


Hey, I was aware of the fondness for tattooing Polynesian Māori culture has, but I and many of us have a fondness for aviation culture too. Frankly woman who wear anklets, thumb rings, toe rings, nose rings, tattoos are COMPLETELY undateable and what polite society consider trashy and lower class.

Of course polite society would never explain that, to those who are adorned with such features, but that is exactly how some think. In fact polite society would not even bother to slum to discuss this topic, but as I am totally blue collar, and understand how some of this old money thinks... I am just sharing.

I implore you in aviation not to encourage tattoos even though it may be an option. Have respect for yourself and your profession in aviation and cover them up.


Undatable? Females in aviation aren’t there to comply with your need for a date... they are professionals. I suspect with attitudes like yours, it’s the other way around - they won’t date you!

New Zealand doesn’t haven’t the class structure you have described above, and most New Zealanders would find the notion of judging people on class as you have far far more offensive than any visible tattoo!
 
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Alphazone
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Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:23 am

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
Alphazone wrote:
Back to the topic, I think it's a terrible idea, my opinion of tattoos is that they are repulsive and form of self-harm.


That's a shame. In non anglo based cultures tattoos can be viewed as entirely the opposite. A big example of that is Polynesian culture. Stuff like tā moko is considered an honorable and expected part of one's life. To get a tā moko is to connect one to one's past and to acknowledge life achievements.

I'm curious. Would you consider simple pierced ears with small rings or studs in them to be a form of self harm?

What about makeup in general?

Personally I think this is a good and long overdue step. You still won't get to have jaw tats that say Devat8. But otherwise reasonable tattoos are allowed.

Consider that even the NZ Navy gave dispensation for a sailor to get a full face tā moko. https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zeal ... -moko.html


Thanks for the informative post.
I don’t mean to denigrate a culture but those tattooed Maori people you are talking about are also the ones walking around with no shirt. So I think it doesn’t fit into the model of professional society today.

I saw one aesthetically pleasing tattoo in my life, it was an Italian guy in Playa del Carmen with a nice entire leg done with some spectacular design. 99% of other tattoos I’ve seen look reminiscent of the subculture in England called “chav”. Like, in this Polish rap video https://youtu.be/w5YVkHRI3h4 the main performer has visible tattoos that look totally undesirable. And this propagates to followers of hip-hop who cut themselves with some sloppy ink.

Piercing, I pierced my ear once and wore the earring for one year, it’s not the same as tattooing.
Spirit of the Northwest People
 
NYCVIE
Posts: 140
Joined: Mon Jul 04, 2016 11:01 pm

Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:36 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:

Down here in NZ tattoos are considered perfectly normal. Part of that is an increased merging of Polynesian Māori culture with the Anglo/Euro culture of our ancestors. And part of it is an acceptance that what one does to one's own body is up to them. Short of getting tats that are intentionally aggressive or otherwise inciting, very few here care.

This has barely been a blip in the NZ news. People generally don't care.


Hey, I was aware of the fondness for tattooing Polynesian Māori culture has, but I and many of us have a fondness for aviation culture too. Frankly woman who wear anklets, thumb rings, toe rings, nose rings, tattoos are COMPLETELY undateable and what polite society consider trashy and lower class.

Of course polite society would never explain that, to those who are adorned with such features, but that is exactly how some think. In fact polite society would not even bother to slum to discuss this topic, but as I am totally blue collar, and understand how some of this old money thinks... I am just sharing.

I implore you in aviation not to encourage tattoos even though it may be an option. Have respect for yourself and your profession in aviation and cover them up.


Wow, the misogyny and 1950s mentality JUMPED out.
 
speedbird52
Posts: 743
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:42 am

NYCVIE wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:

Down here in NZ tattoos are considered perfectly normal. Part of that is an increased merging of Polynesian Māori culture with the Anglo/Euro culture of our ancestors. And part of it is an acceptance that what one does to one's own body is up to them. Short of getting tats that are intentionally aggressive or otherwise inciting, very few here care.

This has barely been a blip in the NZ news. People generally don't care.


Hey, I was aware of the fondness for tattooing Polynesian Māori culture has, but I and many of us have a fondness for aviation culture too. Frankly woman who wear anklets, thumb rings, toe rings, nose rings, tattoos are COMPLETELY undateable and what polite society consider trashy and lower class.

Of course polite society would never explain that, to those who are adorned with such features, but that is exactly how some think. In fact polite society would not even bother to slum to discuss this topic, but as I am totally blue collar, and understand how some of this old money thinks... I am just sharing.

I implore you in aviation not to encourage tattoos even though it may be an option. Have respect for yourself and your profession in aviation and cover them up.


Wow, the misogyny and 1950s mentality JUMPED out.

What's the issue with anklets though?
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:45 am

NYCVIE wrote:
Wow, the misogyny and 1950s mentality JUMPED out.


Traditionally tattoos were the realm of the enlisted ranks in the military and not the officers.

To the other poster thanks for sharing the term “Chav.” It is hard to keep up with all the happenings in New Zealand, South Africa, Australia, Canada, and the US.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:49 am

speedbird52 wrote:
NYCVIE wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
What's the issue with anklets though?

None. Just avoid them.

(;
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
Posts: 910
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:20 am

Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 3:59 am

Alphazone wrote:
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
Alphazone wrote:
Back to the topic, I think it's a terrible idea, my opinion of tattoos is that they are repulsive and form of self-harm.


That's a shame. In non anglo based cultures tattoos can be viewed as entirely the opposite. A big example of that is Polynesian culture. Stuff like tā moko is considered an honorable and expected part of one's life. To get a tā moko is to connect one to one's past and to acknowledge life achievements.

I'm curious. Would you consider simple pierced ears with small rings or studs in them to be a form of self harm?

What about makeup in general?

Personally I think this is a good and long overdue step. You still won't get to have jaw tats that say Devat8. But otherwise reasonable tattoos are allowed.

Consider that even the NZ Navy gave dispensation for a sailor to get a full face tā moko. https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zeal ... -moko.html


Thanks for the informative post.
I don’t mean to denigrate a culture but those tattooed Maori people you are talking about are also the ones walking around with no shirt. So I think it doesn’t fit into the model of professional society today.

I saw one aesthetically pleasing tattoo in my life, it was an Italian guy in Playa del Carmen with a nice entire leg done with some spectacular design. 99% of other tattoos I’ve seen look reminiscent of the subculture in England called “chav”. Like, in this Polish rap video https://youtu.be/w5YVkHRI3h4 the main performer has visible tattoos that look totally undesirable. And this propagates to followers of hip-hop who cut themselves with some sloppy ink.

Piercing, I pierced my ear once and wore the earring for one year, it’s not the same as tattooing.


No one has said that you're going to have pilots and cabin crew walking around in flip flops and shorts with bare chests. They will still be expected to be wearing approved Air NZ uniforms which means you'll probably never see anything but the lower arms and face of the crew. The most likely 'shocking' tattoo you will see as a non kiwi will be a full face ta moko. And for a kiwi it might be uncommon but it's hardly super rare to see people with them.

Take a look at images of such tattoos to get a feeling of what you're likely to glimpse. https://www.google.com/search?q=ta+moko
And remember you'd only see lower arms and face. In fact for the men you wouldn't even see the lower arms as they're all wearing long sleeve shirts on board. You'd only see short sleeve shirts for ramp crew.

Remember cultures vary. And what you might find totally unthinkable is perfectly normal elsewhere. ;)
 
Antarius
Posts: 1497
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:27 pm

Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:09 am

Alphazone wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Alphazone wrote:
Back to the topic, I think it's a terrible idea, my opinion of tattoos is that they are repulsive and form of self-harm.


To which everyone is and should be entitled. You sign a disclaimer before getting a tattoo or piercing.


Actually, what you wrote, that citizens should have a right to self-destructive behavior, doesn’t make sense. The society should try to limit destructive behaviors e.g. by outlawing tattooism, in order to curtail delinquency.


Umm, you're getting scarily... scary with this. Never underestimate the ability for humans to turn "destructive behaviors" into atrociously terrible things. Remember the campaigns against women voting or before that, people of color? Supposedly "Destructive to society".

I'm not personally a tattoo fan, but, that is for me. It does not affect me if someone else has one.
2019: SIN HKG NRT DFW IAH HOU CLT LGA JFK SFO SJC EWR SNA EYW MIA BOG LAX ORD DTW OAK PVG BOS DCA IAD ATL LAS BIS CUN PHX OAK SYD CVG PHL MAD ORY CDG SLC SJU BQN DEN DOH BLR MAA KTM YYZ MEX
 
GatorClark
Posts: 89
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2015 6:34 am

Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:10 am

OA940 wrote:
I honestly never got this policy. Assuming your tattoo doesn't depict something offensive then there's no need for all this fuss


A lot of companies & government agencies here in the states have the same policy. Unfortunately, there is the general idea at the managerial level that tattoos are unprofessional and are the hallmark of a bad employee. I'm glad to see this mindset is slowly fading from existence.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
Posts: 910
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2015 10:20 am

Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 4:13 am

For a crazy example. This person would never get a job with Air NZ. Or most anyone else for that matter. https://i.redd.it/8aghg3pzcn331.png
 
speedbird52
Posts: 743
Joined: Sat Nov 26, 2016 5:30 am

Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:01 am

Antarius wrote:
Alphazone wrote:
aviationaware wrote:


To which everyone is and should be entitled. You sign a disclaimer before getting a tattoo or piercing.


Actually, what you wrote, that citizens should have a right to self-destructive behavior, doesn’t make sense. The society should try to limit destructive behaviors e.g. by outlawing tattooism, in order to curtail delinquency.


Umm, you're getting scarily... scary with this. Never underestimate the ability for humans to turn "destructive behaviors" into atrociously terrible things. Remember the campaigns against women voting or before that, people of color? Supposedly "Destructive to society".

I'm not personally a tattoo fan, but, that is for me. It does not affect me if someone else has one.

I think eating ice cream with your teeth is destructive to society
 
benjjk
Posts: 333
Joined: Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:29 am

Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:07 am

KlimaBXsst wrote:
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:

Down here in NZ tattoos are considered perfectly normal. Part of that is an increased merging of Polynesian Māori culture with the Anglo/Euro culture of our ancestors. And part of it is an acceptance that what one does to one's own body is up to them. Short of getting tats that are intentionally aggressive or otherwise inciting, very few here care.

This has barely been a blip in the NZ news. People generally don't care.


Hey, I was aware of the fondness for tattooing Polynesian Māori culture has, but I and many of us have a fondness for aviation culture too. Frankly woman who wear anklets, thumb rings, toe rings, nose rings, tattoos are COMPLETELY undateable and what polite society consider trashy and lower class.

Of course polite society would never explain that, to those who are adorned with such features, but that is exactly how some think. In fact polite society would not even bother to slum to discuss this topic, but as I am totally blue collar, and understand how some of this old money thinks... I am just sharing.

I implore you in aviation not to encourage tattoos even though it may be an option. Have respect for yourself and your profession in aviation and cover them up.


This is possibly the funniest post I've ever seen on this website.

Fortunately, 'polite society' is dying and the world is gradually becoming a much less judgmental place - a much more polite place, if you will.
 
KlimaBXsst
Posts: 249
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2019 4:14 pm

Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:19 am

benjjk wrote:
KlimaBXsst wrote:
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:

Down here in NZ tattoos are considered perfectly normal. Part of that is an increased merging of Polynesian Māori culture with the Anglo/Euro culture of our ancestors. And part of it is an acceptance that what one does to one's own body is up to them. Short of getting tats that are intentionally aggressive or otherwise inciting, very few here care.

This has barely been a blip in the NZ news. People generally don't care.


Hey, I was aware of the fondness for tattooing Polynesian Māori culture has, but I and many of us have a fondness for aviation culture too. Frankly woman who wear anklets, thumb rings, toe rings, nose rings, tattoos are COMPLETELY undateable and what polite society consider trashy and lower class.

Of course polite society would never explain that, to those who are adorned with such features, but that is exactly how some think. In fact polite society would not even bother to slum to discuss this topic, but as I am totally blue collar, and understand how some of this old money thinks... I am just sharing.

I implore you in aviation not to encourage tattoos even though it may be an option. Have respect for yourself and your profession in aviation and cover them up.


This is possibly the funniest post I've ever seen on this website.

Fortunately, 'polite society' is dying and the world is gradually becoming a much less judgmental place - a much more polite place, if you will.


So personally, I would like to compare various airlines policies regarding tattoos so I can support the airlines that have more traditional tattoo free policies for their crew members.

I would even pay slightly more $’s to travel with people and airlines closer to my traditional value system.
Aesthetically the A 340 got it right!
 
Chrisba320
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:05 pm

Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 5:47 am

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
Alphazone wrote:
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:

That's a shame. In non anglo based cultures tattoos can be viewed as entirely the opposite. A big example of that is Polynesian culture. Stuff like tā moko is considered an honorable and expected part of one's life. To get a tā moko is to connect one to one's past and to acknowledge life achievements.

I'm curious. Would you consider simple pierced ears with small rings or studs in them to be a form of self harm?

What about makeup in general?

Personally I think this is a good and long overdue step. You still won't get to have jaw tats that say Devat8. But otherwise reasonable tattoos are allowed.

Consider that even the NZ Navy gave dispensation for a sailor to get a full face tā moko. https://www.newshub.co.nz/home/new-zeal ... -moko.html


Thanks for the informative post.
I don’t mean to denigrate a culture but those tattooed Maori people you are talking about are also the ones walking around with no shirt. So I think it doesn’t fit into the model of professional society today.

I saw one aesthetically pleasing tattoo in my life, it was an Italian guy in Playa del Carmen with a nice entire leg done with some spectacular design. 99% of other tattoos I’ve seen look reminiscent of the subculture in England called “chav”. Like, in this Polish rap video https://youtu.be/w5YVkHRI3h4 the main performer has visible tattoos that look totally undesirable. And this propagates to followers of hip-hop who cut themselves with some sloppy ink.

Piercing, I pierced my ear once and wore the earring for one year, it’s not the same as tattooing.


No one has said that you're going to have pilots and cabin crew walking around in flip flops and shorts with bare chests. They will still be expected to be wearing approved Air NZ uniforms which means you'll probably never see anything but the lower arms and face of the crew. The most likely 'shocking' tattoo you will see as a non kiwi will be a full face ta moko. And for a kiwi it might be uncommon but it's hardly super rare to see people with them.

Take a look at images of such tattoos to get a feeling of what you're likely to glimpse. https://www.google.com/search?q=ta+moko
And remember you'd only see lower arms and face. In fact for the men you wouldn't even see the lower arms as they're all wearing long sleeve shirts on board. You'd only see short sleeve shirts for ramp crew.

Remember cultures vary. And what you might find totally unthinkable is perfectly normal elsewhere. ;)


To be honest I’d be more than happy to see the captain board in shorts, flip flops and bare chested, especially if he is good looking, have a beard and a few tattoos! Heck, I’d go out of my way to travel on his flights. Need to take a cold shower now.... Back to the topic, I fully support Air NZ in this. I live in South Africa and visible tattoos in the workplace is very common and only frowned on by a few dinosaurs. To me tattoos are the ultimate form of self expression and I see amazing works of art every day. Tattoos moved out of the prison realm into the mainstream decades ago and as long as the person does his or her job well I couldn’t care less if they are covered in tattoos.
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2538
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:04 am

smi0006 wrote:
Can’t believe it too them so long, they were happy to have the Koru on the tail, but not allow their people to wear ta Mokos.

Now hopefully one day we’ll see them end the absurd need for female staff to wear make up and high heals!


Whats wrong with insisting your staff have a classy uniform? Even Mexican LCC do it. They don't have to wear 6 inch stilettos (they can't for
safety reasons anyway) and if you have a medical reason for it most airlines grant you an exception. It's no different to the male staff not
being allowed to have big furry hipster beards. You, in these front line roles are the face of your company, and in many cases, like SQ for
example, you're also the face of your nation abroad. It's just part of the job. It's no different to a stripper being expected to wear a G string,
A chef an apron, high vis wear for people working around heavy equipment, scrubs for Doctors and Nurses in hospitals.

If you don't like it, perhaps you picked the wrong role and that goes for visible Tatts as well. The airline is never going to see you naked
(not unless you sleep with other crew on layovers) so as long as they're not visible they'll never know. I even know people who worked
for conservative companies like Emirates that had them.... they just weren't visible with the uniform on.
 
smi0006
Posts: 2198
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:51 am

Lufthansa wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
Can’t believe it too them so long, they were happy to have the Koru on the tail, but not allow their people to wear ta Mokos.

Now hopefully one day we’ll see them end the absurd need for female staff to wear make up and high heals!


Whats wrong with insisting your staff have a classy uniform? Even Mexican LCC do it. They don't have to wear 6 inch stilettos (they can't for
safety reasons anyway) and if you have a medical reason for it most airlines grant you an exception. It's no different to the male staff not
being allowed to have big furry hipster beards. You, in these front line roles are the face of your company, and in many cases, like SQ for
example, you're also the face of your nation abroad. It's just part of the job. It's no different to a stripper being expected to wear a G string,
A chef an apron, high vis wear for people working around heavy equipment, scrubs for Doctors and Nurses in hospitals.

If you don't like it, perhaps you picked the wrong role and that goes for visible Tatts as well. The airline is never going to see you naked
(not unless you sleep with other crew on layovers) so as long as they're not visible they'll never know. I even know people who worked
for conservative companies like Emirates that had them.... they just weren't visible with the uniform on.


Because classy is subjective - and for me a female can look classy in pants, flats and no make up- I’m more interested in her customer service e then her appearance. And with regard to the tattoos, it’s not the wrong role if I have tats and get hired by NZ it seems.
 
smi0006
Posts: 2198
Joined: Wed Jan 16, 2008 7:45 am

Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 7:53 am

Lufthansa wrote:
smi0006 wrote:
Can’t believe it too them so long, they were happy to have the Koru on the tail, but not allow their people to wear ta Mokos.

Now hopefully one day we’ll see them end the absurd need for female staff to wear make up and high heals!


Whats wrong with insisting your staff have a classy uniform? Even Mexican LCC do it. They don't have to wear 6 inch stilettos (they can't for
safety reasons anyway) and if you have a medical reason for it most airlines grant you an exception. It's no different to the male staff not
being allowed to have big furry hipster beards. You, in these front line roles are the face of your company, and in many cases, like SQ for
example, you're also the face of your nation abroad. It's just part of the job. It's no different to a stripper being expected to wear a G string,
A chef an apron, high vis wear for people working around heavy equipment, scrubs for Doctors and Nurses in hospitals.

If you don't like it, perhaps you picked the wrong role and that goes for visible Tatts as well. The airline is never going to see you naked
(not unless you sleep with other crew on layovers) so as long as they're not visible they'll never know. I even know people who worked
for conservative companies like Emirates that had them.... they just weren't visible with the uniform on.


In the NZ example they used on form of Maori culture for their branding, the Koru, then refused another the Ta Moko, doesn’t that seem a bit insensitive? And with regard to female uniforms classy is subjective - and for me a female can look classy in pants, flats and no make up- I’m more interested in her customer service then her appearance. That doesn’t mean you can’t be professional and well presented, either. And with regard to the tattoos, it’s not the wrong role if I have tats and get hired by NZ it seems.
 
User avatar
OA940
Posts: 1784
Joined: Fri May 20, 2016 6:18 am

Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 8:54 am

GatorClark wrote:
OA940 wrote:
I honestly never got this policy. Assuming your tattoo doesn't depict something offensive then there's no need for all this fuss


A lot of companies & government agencies here in the states have the same policy. Unfortunately, there is the general idea at the managerial level that tattoos are unprofessional and are the hallmark of a bad employee. I'm glad to see this mindset is slowly fading from existence.


I know. In Europe it's the same. Also while I'm glad to see ANZ change it too, I haven't heard of any similar policy anywhere else.
A350/CSeries = bae
 
BlatantEcho
Posts: 2086
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2000 10:11 am

Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:45 am

For me: visible tattoos on people that are supposed to be 'professionals' is a no-go. Sorry. It just reflects bad judgement.
A tattoo isn't something anyone in society has ever said 'Look how professional, safe and tidy'. Tattoos are counter-culture things that people get to show their individuality (and yes, the irony that it's so popular/common to have a tattoo to express individuality is amusing).

--
For the social justice keyboard warriors on this thread arguing about wage gaps, womens' makeup, misogyny or whatever terms you all use.
This is an aviation board....
Why not leave that stuff to the article comments on your local news website?


For what it's worth, it undermines the causes you claim to believe in when you demand everyone else takes your viewpoint.
'If you're not with us, you're against us' used to be a phrase you guys all ridiculed.... now it appears it's your dogma.
 
Lufthansa
Posts: 2538
Joined: Thu May 20, 1999 6:04 am

Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:49 am

Oh the other thing I might add, is facial Ta Mokos might scare some markets like East Asia.
They seem to be giving themselves some room for interpretation here. My guess is obviously it doesn't matter
on the shoulders etc, but probably if someone has something on the legs (this really only applies to women for
obvious reasons) they'll probably just let them cover it with a darker panty hose?
 
tonystan
Posts: 1651
Joined: Sat Jan 07, 2006 7:39 am

Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 11:51 am

BlatantEcho wrote:
For me: visible tattoos on people that are supposed to be 'professionals' is a no-go. Sorry. It just reflects bad judgement.
A tattoo isn't something anyone in society has ever said 'Look how professional, safe and tidy'. Tattoos are counter-culture things that people get to show their individuality (and yes, the irony that it's so popular/common to have a tattoo to express individuality is amusing).

--
For the social justice keyboard warriors on this thread arguing about wage gaps, womens' makeup, misogyny or whatever terms you all use.
This is an aviation board....
Why not leave that stuff to the article comments on your local news website?


For what it's worth, it undermines the causes you claim to believe in when you demand everyone else takes your viewpoint.
'If you're not with us, you're against us' used to be a phrase you guys all ridiculed.... now it appears it's your dogma.


Tell me this and tell me no more...how does someone’s tattoo prevent them from being friendly and suitable to a job such as flight or cabin crew? And try not to use hackneyed stereotypes or prejudices!
My views are my own and do not reflect any other person or organisation.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 11525
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Air New Zealand drops tattoo ban.

Tue Jun 11, 2019 12:01 pm

They might have wanted to avoid tattoos as long as possible to not displease Japanese customers, maybe ?
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